IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-09-04
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11:10:50 <dihedral> can breakdowns be made a little more realistic?
11:11:38 <svip> Anything specific you want to modify?
11:11:45 <svip> Changing the source code.
11:12:35 <dihedral> i.e. specify in the config a percentage
11:12:44 <dihedral> rather than specifying 'normal' or 'reduced'
11:13:19 <dihedral> that would give game admins more controll
11:13:35 <svip> So I change in the patch settings window.
11:14:04 <dihedral> in your config file :-)
11:14:29 <svip> :/ Never seen this config file though.
11:15:00 <thingwath> well, I expected another kind of realism, maybe :)
11:15:48 <dihedral> yes, though it would be easiest if every admin could set a percentage on their own
11:16:18 <dihedral> as 'realistic' for you may not be the same as for me or someone else
11:16:42 <dihedral> i.e. some might want even more reduced breakdowns, as others
11:17:10 <dihedral> so specifying a percentage could give everybody exactly that option
11:19:08 <thingwath> but I wouldn't mind if breakdowns for trains would behave same as for planes
11:19:33 <dihedral> diff_custom gets a 100 at position 10 = normal breakdowns
11:20:11 <dihedral> diff_custom gets a 50 at position 10 = 50% of normal breakdowns
11:21:16 <dihedral> or 2 patch options, breakdown_percentage and breakdown_increase
11:22:02 <dihedral> and use the increase * age of vehicle for a percentage added to breakdown_percentage
11:22:06 <SmatZ> thingwath: do you mean to slow-down trains after a breakdown? that would cause really bad jams :-x
11:22:25 <thingwath> SmatZ: yes :) it would, but it would also be more realistic :)
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11:22:59 <svip> Then days should actually be days.
11:23:46 <dihedral> the current breakdown is way over the top
11:24:00 <svip> It is because that days are so short.
11:24:08 <svip> And they turn into heap of junk faster than you can eat a pie.
11:27:17 <dihedral> + it does not make sense that trains that breakdown in a station are unable to unload
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11:27:51 <Rubidium> it models broken doors...
11:28:28 <dihedral> Rubidium: nice excuse :-)
11:28:55 <SmatZ> dihedral: it can? to break-down when loading/unloading?
11:29:19 <dihedral> never seen a train brocken down in a station SmatZ ?
11:29:33 <SmatZ> dihedral: no... I do not play with breakdowns...
11:29:55 <SmatZ> something strange I saw is that train that doesn't move cannot breakdown
11:29:58 <dihedral> Rubidium: what then do you say to replaceing position 10 of diff_custom with a percentage for breakdowns?
11:30:06 <dihedral> i.e. 100 = normal breakdowns
11:30:25 <dihedral> SmatZ: a train that is 'stopped' cannot breakdown
11:30:37 <Rubidium> then people want to be able to specify more breakdowns too
11:30:51 <dihedral> Rubidium: 'normal' is the current setting for normal
11:31:02 <SmatZ> dihedral: I mean while waiting on a semaphore ... one train breaks down, other trains are waiting, and none of them breaks down
11:31:41 <dihedral> limit the value for that setting to 200 :-)
11:32:09 <dihedral> i.e. simply a percentage and then people have more controll over the breakdowns
11:33:57 <svip> Is control really with two l's?
11:34:21 <thingwath> no, but controll is ;)
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11:39:39 <_42_> dihedral, Brianetta (~brian@82-39-52-234.cable.ubr03.benw.blueyonder.co.uk) was last seen quitting #openttdcoop 12 hours 33 minutes ago (03.09. 23:05) stating "Quit: Tsch" after spending 4 hours 24 minutes there.
11:43:10 <Grey> More than one train in a tunnel D:
11:44:30 <svip> Grey: Or maybe you have signals in your tunnels.
11:44:31 <Rubidium> when we had that feature a lot of people complained about it...
11:45:27 <Grey> No, I wish I knew how to put signals in tunnels
11:45:42 <Grey> I can't put more than one train in a tunnel
11:45:55 <Grey> it takes forever for trains to clear though long tunnels
11:48:24 <Rubidium> well, start coding it..., or use one of those revisions with the broken signal system for tunnels
11:48:50 <svip> Grey: Wait till I have the underground patch.
11:49:30 <svip> I have uni to attend to as well.
11:49:43 <svip> And right now, I'm working on a different patch.
11:50:26 <Rubidium> all those people working on non-important things...
11:51:44 <thingwath> which things are important? :)
11:52:21 <Grey> Everything that isn't ottd is unimportant!"
11:52:42 * Grey orders svip to be placed into a locked room with nothing but a computer and a caffine drip
11:52:59 <svip> Can I have Squash soda instead?
11:53:03 <svip> I work faster with that.
11:53:19 <Rubidium> as long as it goes intraveniously
11:53:30 <Grey> You ain't gonna be tasting it
11:53:38 <Rubidium> as long as it isn't liquid caffeine
11:53:45 <Grey> Also: after 3 litres of Dr Pepper, it starts tasting like solvents
11:53:58 <Grey> (I used to go on codeathons with a few bucks worth of Dr P
11:54:04 <Grey> Except by code I mean PHP
11:54:13 <Grey> its sort of... brainfart... script
11:54:30 <Grey> It just sort of... farts its way into existance
11:54:38 <thingwath> it's turing complete, not enough? :o)
11:59:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11040 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#1179]: removing CMD_AUTO from some commands could remotely trigger an assertion.
11:59:35 <glx> now you can see why FS#1179 was hidden :)
12:01:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11041 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10460) [FS#1195]: the industry's owner was saved twice instead of the owner and the founder. Patch by frosch.
12:01:31 <SmatZ> not because I knew about that ... but because we were debugging similiar problems before
12:06:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11042 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_canal.cpp newgrf_house.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp): -Fix [FS#1196]: so newgrf callbacks returned slightly wrong heights (height of nothern corner instead of height of lowest corner). Patch by frosch.
12:07:10 <svip> Rubidium is on a hot-fixing-spree.
12:08:00 <Rubidium> nah, the last two were the best kind of bugfix: one with solution (in patch file) attached ;)
12:09:57 <svip> I haven't rebooted in a while.
12:10:00 <svip> 14:09:59 up 28 days, 22:51, 9 users, load average: 0.85, 0.44, 0.30
12:11:31 <Rubidium> only my laptop "reboots" fairly often, and reboot means: shut down and take it for a long trip
12:11:59 <Rubidium> if it's short I just leave my laptop turned on (not standby or so ;)) and put it in my backpack ;)
12:13:37 <Rubidium> the HDD usually spins down, yeah
12:13:46 <Rubidium> unless I keep it compiling something
12:14:16 <svip> :| Done that lots of times.
12:14:45 <Rubidium> it's especially usefull in the winter. A nicely warmed back :)
12:15:47 <Rubidium> my other hardware usually only reboots with power outages
12:16:01 <svip> :( Yeah, or when my parents bug me.
12:16:11 <svip> o_o Or when I decide to compile a new kernel.
12:16:49 <Rubidium> I just compile the new kernel and install it. Then it gets loaded on the next power outage
12:17:05 <Rubidium> unless there is really a big bug in the kernel
12:17:17 <svip> This bitch runs on 2.4.x
12:17:25 <svip> o____o So upgrading might be a pretty good idea.
12:17:43 <Rubidium> oh, that's a "new" kernel every year or so ;)
12:18:42 <Rubidium> more like every half year it seems
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12:32:08 <SmatZ> is there any way to remove HQ - different than building (Moving) it on a water-level and then let it flood?
12:36:24 <N101> um, Whats "compile Kernal" mean?
12:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> what it says...
12:37:15 <Zavior> It literally compiles the kernel o_O
12:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> well... you rarely see people compiling the windows kernel :p
12:37:41 <SmatZ> N101: for 2.6 kernel, "cd /usr/src/linux && make menuconfig && make -j3 && cp arch/x86_64/boot/bzImage /boot/gentoo-2.6.22 && make modules_install"
12:38:23 <N101> ... thats helps a little.
12:38:53 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause3: one rarely sees people compiling the Mac OSX kernel as well
12:38:56 <N101> i think i get it :P thanks to <Eddi|zuHause3>
12:40:21 <peter1138> but there's all the BSD kernels
12:40:23 <thingwath> it could be some bsd
12:41:10 <thingwath> you almost have to compile kernel there
12:41:59 <N101> wow. i really think i have to sleep now. everything is blury.
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12:42:53 <N101|AWAY> ty for the answers btw.
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13:34:40 <TrueBrain> walking the street, looknig around, finding places to go to!
13:34:46 <TrueBrain> lalalalalalalalallaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
13:35:12 <TrueBrain> 39 minutes to install WinXP via VirtualBox.. not bad! As it takes 41 minutes to install it directly on this machine.. hmmm.. :p
13:35:20 <Belugas> no, it's fun to see some craziness now and then :D
13:35:30 <skidd13> Belugas: Since you are assigned to the town growth cleanup. Did you checked the recent version of the patch
13:36:21 <Belugas> nope. the weekend (3 days) has been one of manual labour, intense one...
13:37:09 <Belugas> i will resume my duties soon, as i come back to my normal state ;)
13:38:29 <skidd13> No problem. I just wanted to hear some comments ;)
13:39:29 <Belugas> i understand, don't worry :)
13:39:58 <Belugas> and i do appreciate your dedication
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13:44:16 <dihedral> orudge: how much more bandwidth usage was there last month compared to the usual?
13:44:27 <orudge> for tt-forums? or openttd?
13:44:42 <dihedral> lets go for both - now that you mention it :-)
13:44:56 <orudge> shall check in a minute or ten
13:45:06 <dihedral> i like the 'or ten' :-)
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13:48:51 <orudge> tt-forums used 172GB last month, and the OpenTTD bandwidth stats seem to be incomplete.
13:50:05 <dihedral> what was the difference compared to the month before?
13:50:43 <dihedral> or let me put it this way
13:50:51 <orudge> 206GB the month before
13:51:06 <dihedral> would it help if a part was mirrored
13:51:08 <orudge> 208GB the month before that
13:51:12 <orudge> it actually seems to be going down at the moment
13:51:20 <orudge> but then, it's summer and so on
13:51:31 <TrueBrain> orudge: also, phpbb3 is a bit more clever in bandwidth :)
13:51:34 <orudge> as for mirroring... not really, the actual practicality of doing it isn't particularly easy
13:51:38 <orudge> there's that too, TrueBrain ;)
13:52:14 <dihedral> ottd had a fundraiser for covering the cost of bw right?
13:52:21 <orudge> for bandwidth for OpenTTD, yes
13:52:32 <TrueBrain> and bandwidth isn't the real problem, relative cheap :)
13:52:41 <dihedral> what is the real problem then?
13:53:27 <TrueBrain> currently it is covered for OpenTTD, tnx to the fundraiser :)
13:53:38 <TrueBrain> although sooner or later we do need a dedicated server
13:53:45 <dihedral> currently - yes - but what do you need in terms of spec
13:54:23 <dihedral> and would like to help - though i have no money i could give
13:54:55 <TrueBrain> Anyway, for a dedicated server we need something like a AMD X2 4400
13:54:57 <dihedral> so if morroring something would help - i would love to do that
13:55:31 <TrueBrain> we talked many times before about mirroring OpenTTD, but it is kind of hard, as we use pretty specific software and ways to take care of things..
13:55:34 <orudge> well, with the forums, mirroring things isn't really all that practical
13:55:50 <orudge> people have suggested it pretty much since day one
13:56:02 <TrueBrain> orudge: and they will continue doing so I guess ;)
13:56:25 <orudge> If hardware was the problem, then we could run a separate server for mysql and for lighttpd, but it's not ;)
13:56:29 <orudge> the hardware is coping very well now
13:56:36 <TrueBrain> you can say that, yes :)
13:57:02 <dihedral> TrueBrain: whats with the archives?
13:57:09 <TrueBrain> dihedral: if we ever want OpenTTD to be mirrorable, we need VPS on the mirror
13:57:17 <TrueBrain> dihedral: we ran out of diskspace :)
13:57:28 <dihedral> how much do you need?
13:57:42 <TrueBrain> the total archive is 40 GiB currently
13:57:46 <TrueBrain> growing faster every day ;)
13:58:21 <dihedral> only have one colocated server
13:58:50 <TrueBrain> how ever much I appreciate it, OpenTTD just demands a bit more :(
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13:59:15 <TrueBrain> maybe I should rewrite most things so it isn't that demanding, software-wise :)
13:59:16 <dihedral> if there is anything i could do - please let me know
13:59:59 <dihedral> i do have permission to add another server to the colocation rack for free :-)
14:00:12 <TrueBrain> but I guess the server itself isn't free ;)
14:00:26 <TrueBrain> same problem here :)
14:00:27 <dihedral> but i have to pay no bw
14:00:41 <TrueBrain> and on the current box you don't have, say, 80 GiB free? :p
14:00:42 <dihedral> unless it gets to extravagant
14:00:55 <dihedral> i can add another hdd if you want to
14:01:00 <dihedral> happy to do that any time
14:01:11 <TrueBrain> which country is it located?
14:01:35 <dihedral> the provider is toplink (www.toplink.de)
14:01:43 <TrueBrain> might be worth it for the archive, as it can consume a bit of bandwidth :p
14:01:56 <dihedral> what's 'a bit' ? :-)
14:02:09 <TrueBrain> I don't really know, in fact :)
14:02:52 <dihedral> well - if you want to find out - i would be happy to help
14:03:10 <TrueBrain> :) And I am still looking for an alternative to SF, for the main downloads.. as SF sucks
14:03:19 <orudge> Well, SourceForge isn't that bad
14:03:27 <TrueBrain> but that I have to talk over with other devs ;) I have always more plans then I can execute ;)
14:03:29 <orudge> its mirror system is a lot better than it was
14:03:34 <TrueBrain> orudge: it is getting there, yes
14:03:43 <alex__> orudge, you host the openttd box?
14:03:48 <orudge> and considering they provide a lot of free bandwidth for nothing, it's not that bad
14:03:55 <orudge> alex__: well, TrueBrain mainly
14:04:04 <alex__> TrueBrain, where is it currently hosted?
14:04:17 <TrueBrain> but currently we have 3 offers for free (bandwidth-wise) hostings, so maybe we should also start using that ;) Oh well, I will make a draft or something :)
14:04:19 <dihedral> in a galaxy far far away
14:04:23 <TrueBrain> alex__: in The Netherlands
14:04:35 <TrueBrain> Eweka Datacenter (more peerings than you can imagine :))
14:04:46 <glx> some services are in Hungary
14:04:58 <dihedral> well - work is calling - going afk for some time
14:05:01 <TrueBrain> dihedral: I will come back to you :)
14:07:10 <Belugas> skidd13, FS1161 are these incremental patches? or latest is the only one?
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14:16:02 <dihedral> sorry my mistake :-P
14:16:02 <Phazorx> hmm... game crashes on start - how cai i redirect debug output to file, cuz console window closes right after crash and i can not see last line
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14:18:09 <TrueBrain> alex__: I work there, yes
14:18:23 <dihedral> saw that in the whois db TrueBrain
14:18:25 <alex__> TrueBrain, how long have you been developing your CP for ? :)
14:18:31 <dihedral> though thought i'd not mention it :-P
14:18:39 <TrueBrain> alex__: about... 3 years now?
14:19:33 <dihedral> TrueBrain: that is the most minimalistic hosting company i have ever seen :-D
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14:20:07 <TrueBrain> dihedral: if a site is the representation of a company, yes
14:20:07 <alex__> TrueBrain, seems to be taking a shilw
14:20:48 <alex__> TrueBrain, you own the company?
14:20:53 <dihedral> TrueBrain: what else do you do?
14:22:55 <TrueBrain> dihedral: sometimes there is no need for a website to get customers; even more: a simple website shows that the people working at a company are too busy to do their own website, and therefor have to be successful ;)
14:23:05 <TrueBrain> alex__: I work at that company
14:23:58 <alex__> TrueBrain, cool, how long has the company been around for?
14:24:31 <dihedral> Date registered: 05-11-2005
14:24:49 <TrueBrain> somehow I think dihedral is smarter than alex__ :)
14:26:12 <dihedral> because i know whois or because i make use of it?
14:26:25 <TrueBrain> mostly because I am joking :)
14:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... something is fishy with the alpine climate... it shows a weird mixture of temperate and arctic foundations...
14:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm not sure if that actually helps :p
14:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> the alpinew.grf comes with a custom trkfoundw.grf, but that one is totally incompatible
14:31:31 <alex__> TrueBrain, how do you get customers if your website is shite? :D
14:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> and the snowline is also weird, houses and roads seem to use a different threshold, so you often end up with snowy houses around snow-free roads
14:31:42 <TrueBrain> alex__: who needs a website?
14:31:44 <orudge> alex__: I would presume word of mouth
14:31:55 <TrueBrain> exactly what orudge says :)
14:32:01 <orudge> My own host had lots and lots of customers before we had a decent web site up ;)
14:33:06 <TrueBrain> VirtualBox truely is fast in emulating :)
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14:33:32 <alex__> orudge, you admin/work for a hostin company too?
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14:34:47 <dihedral> www.apligo.com (though hosting and colocation aint mentioned at all)
14:36:13 <SquireJames> Just wondering, is there a more modern version of openttd that supports subsiduaries (rather than the clunky MinIN)
14:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> you could check if it's in ChrisIN
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14:37:33 * dihedral should start reading to the end of the line before answering...
14:37:49 <alex__> orudge, or just a worker?
14:37:50 <SquireJames> I have ChrisIN, apparently its not
14:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> then you have to search for an updated patch yourself, but you are probably out of luck
14:38:46 <SquireJames> I'll stick to ChrisIN then :)
14:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, the subsidiaries patch is probably in the forum... you can try to update it yourself :p
14:39:49 <SquireJames> i've tried that, im still learning this SVN thing
14:40:28 <SquireJames> I have enough trouble with grfs! lol, well, as long as I use someone elses coding I appear to be alright
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14:41:33 <TrueBrain> alex__: and yes, you are surrounded by webhosters
14:42:14 <alex__> im just starting up mine :)
14:42:21 <TrueBrain> hehe, that explains :)
14:42:26 <alex__> im in your internets, stealing your customers.
14:42:52 <dihedral> alex__: i doubt you will be able to steal anybodys customers
14:43:09 <TrueBrain> depends on what you define as stealing :p
14:43:26 <TrueBrain> alex__: how come you start your own? And as: you as owner and only employee?
14:43:44 <alex__> because i wanna get rich,
14:43:50 <alex__> and you bastards charge too much
14:44:00 <TrueBrain> webhosting is crowded, prices are cut down to the minimum
14:44:12 <TrueBrain> so getting rich, will be really really hard
14:44:25 <alex__> webhosting is a good base of operations...
14:44:27 <TrueBrain> and excuse me? We charge too much? Haha :)
14:44:31 <alex__> ill branch out from there
14:44:33 <TrueBrain> Let me guess: you live in the USA :p
14:44:46 <TrueBrain> unexpected :) UK is one of the most expensive places for webhosting
14:44:59 <alex__> thus i get a server in germany :)
14:45:00 <orudge> I think zernebok's prices are pretty reasonable for shared hosting, for instance
14:45:05 <orudge> a lot cheaper than a lot of places ;)
14:45:19 <alex__> orudge, for sure, your prices are good
14:45:29 <alex__> im talking about iseeryourmoney.com
14:46:20 <TrueBrain> but yeah, ISeeR isn't for small customers
14:46:21 <alex__> all good fun, and yeah webhosting market is _flooded_
14:46:52 <alex__> there is only 300 hosting companies in the UK suprisingly
14:46:53 <TrueBrain> anyway, good luck with your company :) I hope you manage!
14:47:03 <TrueBrain> as said: UK is expensive :)
14:47:45 <TrueBrain> if you ever need (non-free) wisdom, let us know :p
14:47:58 <dihedral> alex__: i hope you are not trying to run of a 10Mbit link :-P
14:48:36 <alex__> 100mbit link 6 peers, unlimited data, with 5mbit fallover
14:48:46 <TrueBrain> wild guess: strato? :p
14:49:04 <dihedral> did not know strato was in the uk
14:49:11 <TrueBrain> the biggest ISP in germany, and he doesn't know it
14:49:30 <TrueBrain> dihedral: strato isn't in uk, .de, .fr and .nl only currently I believe
14:49:43 <alex__> TrueBrain, im from NZ oringinally, and no its not
14:49:43 <dihedral> alex__ is in the uk though
14:49:55 <dihedral> red kite radio link?
14:49:57 <TrueBrain> dihedral: it might be that they suck, but if our power (globally) fails, they can run 1 week !!! :p
14:50:20 <TrueBrain> (they have for 1 week of diesel in their basement... crazy bastards)
14:50:33 <TrueBrain> (the whole $@$@$@# gouvermant has all its stuff there...)
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14:50:52 <thingwath> but the question is who would care about it ;)
14:51:03 <TrueBrain> thingwath: that I was wondering too, when I read the story :p
14:51:08 <dihedral> if there aint power - nobody can visite :-D
14:51:10 <TrueBrain> everyone without a computer, but their servers keep on running!!!
14:51:13 <dihedral> and all the routers are down too
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14:51:26 <alex__> fuck one week of diesel
14:51:33 <alex__> when the world blows up, go raid them asap
14:51:45 <alex__> enough diesel for one person for a few years
14:52:09 <dihedral> alex__: just as some side info: you cannot drink it
14:53:08 <dihedral> alex__: who is your provider?
14:54:24 <dihedral> and you are doing some reselling?
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14:55:40 <alex__> resellers are annoying
14:56:02 <dihedral> you got yourself a dedicated?
14:56:45 <alex__> im looking at CP's for them now atm
14:57:13 <TrueBrain> one of the reasons we never finished our own CP: Plesk :p
14:57:28 <TrueBrain> the other obvious ones: cPanel
14:58:16 <dihedral> plesk ok, but cpanel... no
14:59:09 <dihedral> alex__: you did not go for this one did you "Jetzt Keypartner werden und verdienen !!"
15:01:42 <dihedral> they dont even support imap...
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15:03:17 <SmatZ_> dbg: [net] Missed frame for sync-test (2225300 / 2225301)
15:03:18 <SmatZ_> dbg: [net] Missed frame for sync-test (2226300 / 2226301)
15:04:06 <SmatZ_> may there be some reason why it is every x00/x01 th frame?
15:06:07 <SmatZ_> not every, but when it happens, it is for x00/x01...
15:06:37 <Rubidium> sync-test == checking random consistency between client and server
15:07:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ_: sync is only done every 100th frame
15:08:06 <SmatZ_> ah, I though it is done every day
15:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ_: it's in the beginning of network.h
15:10:37 <SquireJames> Heres a completely useless, yet fun idea for OpenTTD
15:10:42 <SquireJames> Historical newspaper reports
15:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%204.%20Nov%201921.png
15:11:10 <SmatZ_> Eddi|zuHause3: thanks, I don't know why I though it is done every day
15:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> there is not much sense in the network code being aware of the length of a day...
15:11:57 <Rubidium> 100 frames is about 1 day
15:12:16 <SquireJames> For example, September 3rd 1939, a newspaper pops up telling us that Great Britain has entered the Second World War
15:12:45 <alex__> hmm i dont like plesk or CP
15:12:50 <alex__> simply because you have to pay
15:12:57 <alex__> and they look shit anyways
15:13:08 <TrueBrain> "because you have to pay"
15:13:15 <TrueBrain> "they look shit" <- Plesk for sure doesn't look like shit
15:13:26 <TrueBrain> only the sun goes up for nothing
15:13:33 <SquireJames> If you wanted to have a useful effect, maybe it could trigger some sort of economy change, an increase in coal, iron ore and oil production, reduction in passenger traffic
15:14:16 <alex__> TrueBrain, can plesk manage hosting services such as shoutcast / xen ?
15:14:29 <TrueBrain> there are many plugins, google it :p
15:14:38 <TrueBrain> they do have their own VPS software
15:15:15 <SquireJames> When newindustries is done, you could have cargoes such as Troops, Armaments, maybe even go as deep as evacuees once the passenger destinations code has been debugged.
15:16:08 <dihedral> alex__: no offence - though i would personally suggest you get a job in that field before starting your own company
15:16:53 <Zaviori> Wut, passenger destinations?
15:16:58 <SquireJames> Peacetime events would occur too naturally, something along the lines of the Wall Street Crash, the creation of the NHS (triggering more hospitals or something)
15:16:59 <alex__> .. dihedral: no taken, and ive had 4 jobs in it
15:17:21 <dihedral> seems like you could do with more :-)
15:17:23 <SquireJames> Just an idea to make OpenTTD more immersive :)
15:17:29 <alex__> dihedral, now thats offensive,
15:17:38 <Zaviori> Is passenger destinations being developed for trunk?
15:17:50 <SquireJames> I'm not sure, I hope it is eventually
15:17:51 <dihedral> like i said - no offence
15:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> SquireJames: go create a newgrf spec for it :)
15:18:08 <dihedral> pride though aint a good basis
15:18:14 <SquireJames> I could make triggered events through grfs?
15:18:24 <alex__> i said plesk / cpanel isnt good, and that makes you think i dont have enough experience?
15:18:59 <dihedral> "simply because you have to pay" makes me believe so :-P
15:19:14 <dihedral> and it's not the 'experiance' i am wanting to aim for
15:19:24 <alex__> well, im building my own CP :)
15:19:30 <alex__> basing on some OS stuff
15:19:43 <SquireJames> and until the newindustries switch has been finalised, the only difference between Armaments and Goods would be the trucks
15:19:43 <alex__> cause the ones out there arnt really what i need
15:19:47 <dihedral> but wanting something for free and having customers to make you rich...
15:19:59 <orudge> Doesn't sound like the best basis to start a hosting company on, to be honest
15:20:04 <SquireJames> which, I know UKRS does a good job of, but, i like have specific cargoes myself
15:20:06 <orudge> I see many web hosts come and go, often with similar goals
15:20:12 <orudge> they want to pay as little as possible
15:20:18 <orudge> I assume you have a bit more sense than most, alex__ :)
15:20:48 <alex__> thanks for picking me apart
15:20:53 <alex__> im sure ill steal your customers.
15:21:00 <dihedral> alex__: dont missunderstand
15:21:09 <orudge> I was mainly just meaning things generally.
15:21:12 <dihedral> nobody is trying to pick you apart
15:21:26 <dihedral> just people speaking openly
15:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> <SquireJames> I could make triggered events through grfs? <- what i meant was: make grfs able to do that...
15:22:00 <SquireJames> Oh, the grfs for the cargoes? I could I suppose
15:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, i meant for the newspaper events...
15:22:48 <SquireJames> but i wouldn't be able to code in when they trigger yet though
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15:22:57 <dihedral> alex__: i too have seen enough people trying to build up companies
15:23:02 <SquireJames> the guys who know more C++ than me would have to be left to that :)
15:23:15 <dihedral> but as soon as they tried to invest nothing and gain all - they failed
15:23:48 <dihedral> SquireJames: with that oppinion you will never reach higher aims in developing anything
15:24:21 <SquireJames> Hey, I'm a lowly greasemonkey, I know some C++ but not enough to code anything useful
15:24:48 <SquireJames> I did make a bus tickets program at college though, which my tutors were pretty impressed with
15:24:49 <Belugas> SquireJames, if you really want to, you can achieve a lot.
15:24:52 <alex__> dihedral, thats fine, building up this company will take time, and im not alone in this,
15:24:53 <Belugas> all you need is the drive
15:25:24 <SquireJames> I appreciate the sentiment, but regarding OpenTTD, developing a whole game or even part of is a bit much for me
15:25:25 <dihedral> alex__: taking time and thinking things twice or more times through is a good thing :-)
15:25:52 <alex__> dihedral, all im investing is time, not money at this stage, hence this is why i dont want to pay for cpanel (which is not what im looking for) and plesk (which pricing model sucks)
15:26:04 <SquireJames> I make total conversions for other games, its just OpenTTD, in my experience the more flexible the code, the more complex it potentially is
15:26:23 <dihedral> alex__: have a look at webmin and usermin and virtumin
15:26:29 <SquireJames> like, Star Trek Armada II for example, we can't do much beyond the boundaries of the original progra,
15:26:51 <SquireJames> We can still do alot of physics tweaks, new 3d models, so it looks and plays totally different
15:27:13 <SquireJames> but we can't do anything along the lines of trams in OpenTTD, or new airports etc
15:27:48 <SquireJames> But OpenTTD, you can do loads to, very flexible, but requires a little more knowledge to edit or you'll just bugger stuff up
15:29:00 * Rubidium thinks adding trams is a waste of time
15:29:02 <alex__> dihedral, ive used webmin for around 5months while developing some other things, but in the end, it isnt very good
15:29:10 <alex__> dihedral, im using ispconfig.org atm
15:29:15 <SquireJames> and, regarding NFOs, i used to do alot, i've just, ahem, forgotten
15:29:25 <alex__> dihedral, also webmin is outdated now with debian etch......
15:29:41 <alex__> also webmin cant handle SOAP()
15:29:44 <SquireJames> I made a "Leader" Locomotive once, highly useless of course as it was only a prototype and was notoriously unreliable
15:29:51 <SquireJames> but still, it was an achievement for me
15:31:18 <dihedral> Rubidium: trams are a waist of time, but they add flair
15:31:34 <SquireJames> and recently, something you'll laugh at as its so basic, but i altered the early Mk.II Coaches in UKRS so they were permenantly "Blood and Custard" Coloured
15:31:59 <SquireJames> I tried to make them team colourable but the red team colour was too scarlet, not crimson enough
15:34:11 <SquireJames> but still, a massive improvement from having bright red, tan, or dark green coaches :)
15:35:05 <SquireJames> None of the existing company colours could make the coaches look like realistic BR coaches of the period ("crimson lake" or "blood and custards")
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15:42:06 <SquireJames> I wonder, does it make me a little too realism orientated when i have to have my coaches the exact right colour?
15:43:26 <SquireJames> Anyways, enough of my ramblings, a sensible question for you :)
15:43:27 <dihedral> it makes you a perfectionist
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15:45:28 <SquireJames> Is it possible, to alter what colours a player can have as a company colour?
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15:47:05 <SquireJames> Well, all i want to do is re-add black, and possibly a maroon colour
15:47:27 <SquireJames> i know they exist in the palette, so how do i go about doctoring the company colours
15:48:43 <peter1138> There is a NewGRF that changes mauve to black
15:49:13 <SquireJames> Just so I can play from 1925 - 48 as the LMS, rather than LNER or SR all the time ;)
15:49:48 <Ammler> Hi, we have the fallowing error on the coop server: "dbg: [net] send failed with error 104"
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15:54:27 <Rubidium> Ammler: that "connection reset by peer"
15:55:06 <Rubidium> so it's somebody who lost his/her internet connection
15:55:16 <Ammler> Rubidium: we have much desyncs
15:56:16 <Ammler> hmm, good question, not sure, autopilot says desyncs, but that could be wrong
15:56:30 <SmatZ_> I get "Sync error detected"
15:57:10 <Phazorx> it looks like it is same old renewing issue
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15:58:07 <Phazorx> client says desync as well
15:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... i have a problem with terraforming... if i have a (rail-)foundation on the lower half of a steep slope, i cannot lower the highest edge...
15:58:20 <Belugas> Phazorx, would rather be "same old result", but surekly for another reason...
15:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> which is different from the behaviour if i have a normal rail on the lower half of a half slope
15:58:43 <Phazorx> Belugas: i was not aware that it was ever fixed - behavior has not changed in last few months
15:59:11 <Belugas> thus it is a new reason causing the problem...
15:59:29 <Phazorx> i can not even compile the damn rev now
15:59:38 <Phazorx> weird - it launches only if i enable-debug
16:01:01 <glx> ewanm89: no really useful info in this report
16:01:33 <ewanm89> I know, and there isn't much usefull info we can give
16:02:21 <ewanm89> I was pinging server simultaneously, and on desync ping hit 100ms when it was averaging 35ms.
16:02:41 <Phazorx> hmm... mingw/gcc3.3.4 - ./configure && make succseeds, but game crashes on startup after loading all grfs acording to -d 5
16:03:05 <Phazorx> ./configure --enable-debug && make works fine
16:03:13 <Phazorx> glx, not really log looks okay
16:03:45 <ewanm89> Phazorx: Which kernel are you using?
16:04:17 <Rubidium> Phazorx: maybe you have something like -O3 in the default CFLAGS
16:04:32 <Phazorx> Rubidium: i have a lot of optimizations there
16:04:49 <ewanm89> Phazorx: That could be the problem.
16:05:04 <Phazorx> wasnt before this revision
16:05:16 <Phazorx> and i use same flags for few months
16:05:21 <SmatZ_> Phazorx: I did --enable-debug=5 and I keep desyncing...
16:05:49 <Phazorx> SmatZ_: when configuring? i can not even get network conenction whenever i use debug
16:05:51 <ewanm89> SmatZ_: nightly is desyncing anyway.
16:06:07 <Rubidium> well, nightlies shouldn't desync
16:06:18 <Phazorx> grr... how do i show cflags
16:06:25 <glx> unless some recent changes broke it
16:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> ewanm89: a lot of desync issues have been solved since 0.4.7
16:06:34 <SmatZ_> Phazorx: yes ... I can connect
16:07:06 <ewanm89> Eddi|zuHause3: I thought so
16:07:12 <Rubidium> anyhow, need a way to reproduce the desync locally and quickly.
16:07:13 <SmatZ_> may the desync cause some newgrf? like different newgrf order for different clients...
16:07:30 <Rubidium> SmatZ_: that can't happen
16:07:32 <SquireJames> real simple little problem here, how do i go up a directory in the command prompt?
16:07:36 <Phazorx> -pipe -O2 -march=athlon-xp -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -msse -mmmx -m3dnow -falign-functions=64
16:07:36 <Ammler> ewanm89: thats true, you should be here a year ago...
16:07:36 <ewanm89> SmatZ_: That's server controlled
16:07:45 <SquireJames> i thought it was cd/ but it just keeps throwing me back to the same dir
16:07:45 <Phazorx> tried compiling w/o it - still same
16:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> SquireJames: cd ..
16:07:56 <ewanm89> Ammler: I was, just not as much of a presense.
16:08:16 <DaleStan> Desyncs rarely cause anything except that the user gets forcibly removed from the server. The generation of a newgrf because of a desync would be an extremely interesting feature.
16:09:30 <Ammler> ewanm89: well, its more than a year now...
16:09:45 <SmatZ_> DaleStan: I meant that someone have different newgrf loaded, maybe in a different order, and when some callback is made, the serverside newgrf uses random(), while the client-side doesn't
16:10:17 <ewanm89> Ammler: I've been playing for years.
16:10:17 <Phazorx> glx: i can post -d 5somewhere
16:10:20 <Phazorx> but it looks okay to me
16:10:24 <Phazorx> last line - dbg: [sprite] LoadNewGRF: Currently 6197 sprites are loaded
16:10:43 <SmatZ_> I have like 5 "-d 5" outputs ... and one with RANDOM_DEBUG :)
16:10:51 <Ammler> SmatZ_: shouldn't be possible anymore, they are checked with md5sum
16:10:56 <SquireJames> grr, how do i get grfcodec to decode without converting characters?
16:11:00 <DaleStan> Then you mean that "newgrfs cause desyncs", not "desyncs cause newgrf". In which case Rubidium's right. That can't happen.
16:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ_: no, the newgrf loading code ensures that the newgrfs are the same order...
16:11:05 <SquireJames> i've tried -d[-t] but doesnt seem to work
16:11:20 <Rubidium> uhm, the order of newgrfs can't cause desyncs
16:11:23 <glx> SmatZ_: you need 2 RANDOM_DEBUG, 1 server and 1 client
16:11:33 <Rubidium> newgrfs themselfves (still) can
16:11:50 <ewanm89> I'm hoping for desync now, as I'm running in gdb
16:11:55 <Ammler> Rubidium: yes, but you can't load a different grf
16:12:02 <SquireJames> oh, hang on, deleting the files and redecoding worked
16:12:13 <Rubidium> ewanm89: debugging desyncs in gdb is useless
16:12:33 <ewanm89> Rubidium: You never know, there could be a clue there.
16:12:42 <Phazorx> glx: anything else i can do to "debug" the sisue here (not desyncs)
16:12:47 <ewanm89> but it *should* be useless
16:13:00 <Rubidium> the time a desync is discovered is (usually) several ticks after the cause of the desync.
16:13:23 <Rubidium> several meaning up to more than a thousand (1000) ticks
16:13:24 <ewanm89> So at least gdb will give a trace
16:14:19 <Rubidium> that trace is useless
16:14:26 <Rubidium> it doesn't contain *any* information
16:15:13 <Rubidium> as it will show main loop -> network loop -> process network packets -> check value of "my" random and the one in the packet
16:15:13 <ewanm89> Rubidium: Correction, it *shouldn't* contain any information
16:16:04 <ewanm89> Rubidium: This is where languages like ruby tell more
16:16:06 <SquireJames> okay, now im confused, how do i find out the hex coe for certain colours
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16:16:14 <Rubidium> no, it is doesn't and not shouldn't
16:16:54 <Rubidium> what more would ruby tell?
16:17:23 <ewanm89> Rubidium: Ruby gives information on every call made
16:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> SquireJames: in docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif you have the numbers
16:17:59 <SquireJames> okeedokes, will try that
16:18:12 <SquireJames> just trying to turn the orange player colour to maroon
16:18:35 <Rubidium> ewanm89: it keeps enough state to get any useful information out of a call that has been made seconds ago?
16:18:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> i will leave it as an excercise for the reader to convert them to hex :p
16:18:48 <Rubidium> that must really use a lot of memory while debugging
16:19:03 <ewanm89> Rubidium: No, it costantly logs
16:19:48 <ewanm89> Rubidium: How would you analyse this issue then?
16:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> ewanm89: you get a definitvely reproduceable case
16:20:36 <Rubidium> yes, that is the most important step
16:20:40 <ewanm89> Eddi|zuHause3: To random
16:20:44 <Rubidium> secondly, make it reproducable quickly
16:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> and compare game states at increasing detail level
16:21:12 <ewanm89> It reproduces anyway.
16:21:26 <ewanm89> With no seeming cause
16:21:32 <glx> the best is to have a savegame that will desync at given date
16:21:51 <ewanm89> Um, might manage that
16:21:56 <SquireJames> right well 128 (a mauve colour) is 80 in hex
16:21:58 <glx> and some autosave from before it
16:22:10 <SquireJames> according to this converter (i can do it manually, but i hate doing it)
16:22:34 <glx> SquireJames: that's right
16:22:55 <ewanm89> glx: But I can't do that locally, would require running it on another server.
16:23:06 <SquireJames> but according to pikkabird i am looking for a string of hex like this "04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 0A, 0B"
16:23:20 <glx> ewanm89: you can run both on the same machine
16:23:46 <ewanm89> glx: Yes, but simmilar conditions would be a good idea.
16:23:54 <SquireJames> so i am sort of confused as to the conversion, i simply want to tell the nfo to make OpenTTD change the orange company colour to maroon
16:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> ewanm89: the architecture and network structure have hardly ever anything to do with desyncs
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16:25:02 <peter1138> SquireJames: you have to map it replace a complete colour remap table
16:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> only exception is endian issues
16:25:12 <ewanm89> Eddi|zuHause3: In this case it might.
16:26:17 <SquireJames> well, how do i go about doing that :S
16:27:26 <glx> a color remap is a 257 bytes long sprite starting with 00
16:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> you probably read the newgrf tutorial about sprite replacing, and then find the sprite number of the colour remap for your company colour
16:29:05 <peter1138> and borrow pikka's mauve to black :)
16:29:20 <SquireJames> i've been reading the bloody tutorials, and i've tried to reverse engineer pikkas mauve to black
16:29:42 <SquireJames> i dont understand how the hex number 80 (128 Mauve) is turned into that string of hex numbers
16:29:50 <glx> search for a 257 bytes long sprite staring with 00
16:31:04 <SquireJames> the whole nfo file of pikkas mauve to black is composed of 280 seperate blocks of 257 beginning with 00
16:31:36 <glx> do they have an action A before them ?
16:32:42 <SquireJames> How would i tell?
16:32:51 <peter1138> colour remaps are ... basic
16:33:01 <peter1138> first you tell it that mauve is black
16:33:05 <SquireJames> for you yes, for me its hard
16:33:20 <SquireJames> i'm trying to tell it orange is maroon, but these numbers make no sense
16:33:21 <peter1138> basic does not mean simple
16:40:31 <SquireJames> and now i cant even get pikkas file to work
16:40:37 <SquireJames> doesnt appear in the newgrf list
16:42:18 <SquireJames> which line is it on?
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16:43:40 <SquireJames> umm, seems rather long for an id but
16:43:40 <SquireJames> 08 06 44 44 23 02 4E 65 77 20 43 6F 6D 70 61 6E 79 20 43 6F 6C 6F 75 72 73 20 28 42 6C 61 63 6B
16:43:40 <SquireJames> 29 00 46 6F 72 20 57 69 6E 64 6F 77 73 20 6F 6E 6C 79 2E 20 20 42 79 20 50 69 6B 6B 61 42 69 72
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16:49:28 <SquireJames> well, never mind, bugger it, on to better things
16:49:43 <SquireJames> what does a blue box in the newgrf manager mean
16:51:16 <Rubidium> added to the list but not (yet) loaded in the current game (I think)
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17:07:40 <ln-> do we have joystick support?
17:07:58 <TrueBrain> if it emulates a mouse, yes
17:08:55 <Bjarni> why would you want to use a joystick?
17:09:06 <TrueBrain> why would you want to use OSX?
17:09:09 <TrueBrain> just because he wants to!
17:09:18 <TrueBrain> who cares his reasoning! Just make the code to support it :)
17:09:34 <Wolf01> who wants transparent widgets?
17:09:45 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: I like what you did with that ;)
17:09:50 <Bjarni> whenever ln- gets an idea for something, he ends up wanting me to code it :(
17:10:02 <TrueBrain> and you don't do it, so what is the problem?
17:10:07 <TrueBrain> last time he did the env-language himself
17:10:13 <Bjarni> he will keep nagging me
17:10:16 <Sionide> we have transparent widgets?
17:12:04 <TrueBrain> WMP11 causes WindowsXP to crash in my emulator
17:12:25 <ln-> we have support for changing colors of individual wagons and vehicles, which is IMHO 78.4% more useless than joystick support.
17:12:56 <TrueBrain> I like the number :)
17:13:21 <ln-> though i didn't ask because of that, but kind of wanted to bring up a discussion of whether one could do something useful with a joystick in the game.
17:13:22 <Bjarni> it's eyecandy and not useless
17:13:38 <Bjarni> but I still fail to see what joystick support would actually do
17:14:11 <ln-> it could be e.g. used for panning around the world, zooming in and out
17:15:47 <Sionide> what about disabled players, who can't use a mouse cos their hands are...n't working properly...?
17:16:22 <Bjarni> what about blind people, who can't watch the screen?
17:17:08 <Prof_Frink> ln-: Joystick support + PS3linux -> Hi Def openTTD
17:17:08 <Bjarni> and what about deaf people?
17:17:18 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: They can turn the sound off.
17:17:42 <Bjarni> but if they are blind as well...
17:18:11 <Prof_Frink> We go back to openttd: the text-based adventure
17:18:19 <Prof_Frink> On a braille thingumabob
17:18:34 <Bjarni> then what about people with dyslexia?
17:19:29 <Bjarni> are there female gamers with dyslexia within reach?
17:19:41 <Tefad> what about blind/deaf people with dyslexia?!
17:20:18 <Bjarni> Tefad: are you dyslexic?
17:20:28 <Tefad> but i know two people who are
17:20:32 <Tefad> they can't spell for shit
17:20:34 <Bjarni> mixing up words could be a sign of dyslexia
17:21:47 <Tefad> i tend to think i generally have 80% or so correct grammar/spelling
17:22:26 <Tefad> for some people this is nearly unobtainable
17:23:04 <Bjarni> well... about all the disabled player issue... I don't think we should make huge changes and possibly ruin the gameplay to enable certain few people to be able to play... if we break gameplay to do this, they wouldn't even start playing ;)
17:23:37 <Tefad> for joystick all you need to do is redo the mouse input to allow for it
17:23:40 <Sionide> shouldn't joystick support as such be handled by the OS anyway?
17:24:01 <Bjarni> Tefad: a day older than yesterday/same as yesterday/in front of the computer
17:24:26 <Bjarni> if you want good answers, then stop asking stupid questions :P
17:24:41 <Tefad> perhaps you weren't paying attention to context
17:24:42 <Sionide> i usually reply 15/f/uck/off to asl.. heh
17:24:45 <Tefad> or you're just being an ass : D
17:24:48 <Bjarni> you sound like an AOL user >_<
17:25:13 <Tefad> read the lines of my output previous to the aolspeak
17:26:29 <Tefad> "some people" can be read as "aol users" though now it seems to be more along the lines of myspace-tards
17:26:45 <Tefad> since aol is all but dead as an online provider
17:27:47 <Sacro> yeah, adding joystick support should be quite easy with SDL
17:27:50 <Bjarni> American Offline is dead?
17:28:14 <Tefad> quite a bit of america is broadband enabled now
17:28:18 <Sacro> though they do make good bacon
17:28:30 <Tefad> and only the dumbest of the dumb would still pay for a walled garden on top of an existing internet connection.
17:29:03 <Tefad> especially when most of the aol features are now free i think
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17:45:43 <dihedral> just spoted a production at 16k Tonnes :-)
17:46:16 <mcbane> hmm tranparency for industry dont work for steelworks..
17:46:26 <mcbane> it get only partially transparent
17:47:24 <Rubidium> only thing is that most of the steelwork's graphics are "normal" ground sprites
17:47:57 <Rubidium> and ground sprites can't be made transparant as that is going to get ver very glitchy
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17:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> a propos transparency
17:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> the snow on the roofs in alpine climate does not get transparent...
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18:11:27 <Wolf01> nice, should i fix it?
18:13:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm not sure if alpinew.grf even loads in nightlies
18:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> (requires newindustries)
18:15:41 <Wolf01> when Belugas will finish newindustries i'll fix some things related to newhouses, like the missing transparencies and i'll add support for invisible houses, since is pretty impossible to see well what happens in the city roads, is really difficult to see if there is a tram trak or not
18:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, you actually might get away with just setting the newindustries flag :)
18:25:51 <Belugas> it will be the straight line to crashes
18:26:01 <Belugas> there is a little more than just that flag to raise
18:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> did you actually find the reason for the wrong cargos?
18:30:12 <Belugas> to be honest, it'seen a while I have not worked on it, REAL LIFE has quite a big hold on me, currently :(
18:34:56 <SquireJames> i think another thing OpenTTD needs is some sort of support for station capacity
18:35:10 <SquireJames> to stop 2 and half thousand people flooding my tram stops
18:35:30 <SquireJames> Railway Stations, Docks, Airports are fine as they are
18:35:44 <SquireJames> but there should be some form of limit on Bus and Tram Stations
18:35:59 <Wolf01> more little is the station, less are the passengers it can store
18:36:14 <Rubidium> you should've move trams running at the station ;)
18:36:15 <Belugas> and if you reach that limit, see you town rating lowering
18:36:20 <Wolf01> i vote for 255 passengers per tile
18:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> ever seen 255 people on a tram station?!?
18:37:02 <Sionide> "more little is the station, less are the passengers it can store" i love your english phrasing Wolf01 :)
18:37:41 <Sionide> meh i don't like having 4k people at a difficult to get into and out of train station though
18:38:10 <SquireJames> perhaps a slider you can set yourself
18:38:19 <SquireJames> "store this many" and then the cargo
18:38:28 <Sionide> or as a difficulty setting...?
18:38:38 <Sionide> hmm dunno about in game
18:38:59 <Sionide> that would be sort of cheating cos you could store 1 pax till you've set everything up
18:39:01 <Prof_Frink> Would want to be an extension to NewStations
18:39:05 <SquireJames> so you click the station, and you can choose via a slider to say, let only 50 tons of coal wait at the station
18:39:09 <Sionide> when the idea is supposed to be, to cater for the demand!
18:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd rather see a low number like 50 per platform tile, and then increase stuff like +500 for a small passenger hall
18:39:35 <Prof_Frink> Each square can hold a number of units of each/any cargo, depending on what it is.
18:39:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> or +4000 cargo for a big warehouse
18:39:48 <Wolf01> SquireJames, and if a station can collect all the cargos? you have 15 sliders?
18:40:16 <Rubidium> 32-ish with newcargos
18:40:17 <SquireJames> but really, who has a station that can do everything?
18:40:37 <SquireJames> i try to group the goods producing industries together
18:40:41 <Wolf01> my dock can do everything :P
18:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> station spread is 64, you can do lots of things :p
18:40:59 <Prof_Frink> Wolf01: Are you *sure* that's not a typo?
18:41:01 <SquireJames> and try to group steel mills and power stations
18:41:19 <SquireJames> but i try to avoid having too many things clustered around one station
18:41:40 <Wolf01> oh sorry, i meant a di... eeek what are you trying to make me to write?
18:42:07 <Prof_Frink> Either s/d/c/ or s/o/i/. Doesn't matter which.
18:42:42 <Belugas> would be better for each station, i think
18:44:06 <Prof_Frink> Cargo-per-tile could encourage the construction of more realistic stations by nerfing the capacity of tiles with rails in
18:44:18 * Prof_Frink goes to invegistate food
18:46:42 <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: an investigation in food for vegitarians?
18:51:22 <Wolf01> does anybody have an idea to make my bitch of gui working by clicking on a tile too open it and center it on that tile?
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18:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> you mean like a context menu, positioning next to the mouse cursor?
18:54:16 <Wolf01> is to simplify the gui for the windows mobile built, where there's not so many space for the gui
18:54:56 <Wolf01> so, if i want to build something on a tile, i press for 1 second on that tile and the gui with the construction toolbars popup
18:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> so what is the problem? spawn it somewhere (fixed?) and then move it to the mouse position before drawing it the first time
18:58:08 <Wolf01> i have 8 widgets (the central is transparent, so i can see under it), and to select the tool, i drag the pen to the widget and release it
18:58:55 <Wolf01> this mean that if i release the pen in a point which is not a widget, the gui should close
18:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> why dragging? why not clicking on it like any normal button?
19:00:21 <Wolf01> because is like a gesture, is way too easy to press for 1 second, drag to the place and release, instead of click somewhere and click someotherwhere
19:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> so, on mouse button up you want to close the window... that should not be too problematic either?
19:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> i never understood gestures...
19:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't use it... but KDE has a similar feature
19:02:00 <Wolf01> try all-in-one gestures, it makes really funny and quick to navigate, i sometimes try to use it on windows
19:02:27 <Wolf01> especially to close windows and browse theirs history
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19:16:16 <Prof_Frink> Vegetarians that eat cow, maybe
19:19:35 <Rubidium> dasy2k1: he's replying at something said when your IRC client was not connected
19:22:16 <Rubidium> Ammler: at which version did the desyncs start?
19:26:17 <SmatZ> Rubidium: previous revision used was 10996
19:26:55 <Rubidium> that's quite a few revisions :(
19:27:47 <SmatZ> better is to find bug in 40 revisions than in 300 revisions, isn't it?
19:28:46 <Bjarni> better: unknown. Easier: YES
19:28:57 <Bjarni> but 40 revisions can still be a lot
19:29:17 <Prof_Frink> Depends how many were to branches
19:29:42 <Prof_Frink> 40 revisions might be 1 revision.
19:29:46 <SmatZ> but there were some changes - in this game are breakdowns on and a different set newgrfs is used (trains were only standard maglevs)
19:30:06 <Bjarni> however I'm not under the impression that the branches are very active right onw
19:30:32 <SmatZ> ~38 updates to trunk...
19:31:24 <SmatZ> anyway, almost all of them
19:32:59 <Bjarni> note to self: when generating a diff of what happened in more than 100 revisions, make sure to specify that you only want that particular file, not all files
19:33:10 <Bjarni> that diff became a bit too big >_<
19:33:38 <Rubidium> Bjarni: why would you need to make that diff?
19:34:38 <Bjarni> I want to know why a certain line is gone in autoreplace_cmd.cpp and it was present in 10039. Basically it looks like some functionality is changed and I want to figure out why
19:35:09 <Bjarni> learning where the line was compared to the current code could help to explain
19:35:15 <Bjarni> it would at least be a start
19:35:43 <Bjarni> somebody changed int32 to CommandCost :P
19:36:34 *** ewanm89 is now known as Cap_J_L_Picard
19:37:04 <Bjarni> but not on his ship :P
19:43:27 <Sacro> how do i time make -j2?
19:49:30 <Sacro> SmatZ: i don't think the -j2 flags got used :(
19:49:53 * Sacro can't remember what real/user/sys meanjs
19:50:02 <SmatZ> does the Makefile support parallel make?
19:50:31 <SmatZ> if you want faster OTTD compiling, use ccache :)
19:51:53 <Prof_Frink> My computer took over a minute to install gentoo...
19:52:10 <Prof_Frink> I need to get a new one.
19:52:34 <SmatZ> it took around week on my older computer...
19:52:54 <Sacro> real is how long it *actually* took
19:53:06 <Sacro> user is how much time it would have taken on 1 core
19:53:24 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: It's a typo.
19:53:36 <Prof_Frink> It means how long it would have taken your sister to do it.
19:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> sys means what part was spent in kernel code
19:58:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r11043 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10039) [FS#1185]: Autorenew/autoreplace fails silently with multiple multi-headed engines
20:07:28 <Bjarni> I think it should be a bit more to the left
20:13:13 <Wolf01> mmmh, System.IO.Path.GetDirectoryName( System.Reflection.Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly().GetName().CodeBase) to get the current directoy on windows mobile... really nice and easy to remember
20:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> reflection? very ugly...
20:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> but that is the binary dir rather than the working dir?
20:17:16 <Wolf01> ah, i don't know, was a challenge of my friend
20:17:27 <Wolf01> he wanted to find the working dir
20:17:46 <Wolf01> because MS wrote that is impossible on winCE
20:18:24 <Wolf01> or at least, it is, but not supported from .NET
20:21:00 <Zr40> Wolf01: Directory.GetCurrentDirectory() ?
20:21:42 <Wolf01> oh, is that which is not implemented
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20:23:00 <Zr40> it says some mobile OSes don't have the concept of current directories
20:25:08 <Zr40> Wolf01: about your reflection solution, isn't Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly().Location easier?
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20:44:32 <dasy2k1> microsoft combined the best of windows CE, windows ME and windows NT
20:46:51 <Wolf01> do you work at MS? if so, i have some nice things to tell you :D
20:49:37 <Wolf01> nooo, you closed the fundraiser, and my card will come the next week :/
20:51:23 <glx> Wolf01: you still can donate
20:51:34 <Wolf01> i know, and i'll do :D
20:51:53 <Wolf01> but i liked to donate for the fundraiser
20:52:50 <Belugas> s start a new found raising campaign to get a portable to all the devs travaling in bus or in train
20:52:54 <Belugas> to get to school or work!
20:53:11 <Belugas> like me, just going home like right now
20:53:44 <Wolf01> i'll donate 20€ but i want to see a pocket pc official build :D
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20:57:08 <dasy2k1> @Wolf01 I dont work at MS, i dont even have 1 peoice of MS software on my machine
20:57:53 <Wolf01> it was referred to the guy which said that is not funny :P
21:00:43 <dasy2k1> he seemed like a MS lackey
21:03:44 <Bjarni> <Belugas> s start a new found raising campaign to get a portable to all the devs travaling in bus or in train <--- interesting idea
21:04:08 * Prof_Frink throws a portable running ioenttd at Bjarni
21:04:51 <Bjarni> is it too heavy to lift?
21:05:01 <Prof_Frink> Unfortinately, it's b0rked atm, so I can't find out
21:05:17 <Prof_Frink> Need to reflash really, and lack a CF card
21:05:46 <Bjarni> then you lost your double date ability :P
21:06:44 * dasy2k1 draws smiley on GLX's plaster cast
21:07:10 <glx> well I was replying to <@Bjarni> wtf is an ioenttd?
21:08:13 <dasy2k1> I wish there was a UK tram set
21:08:33 <dasy2k1> im no good at that sort of thing
21:08:39 <Prof_Frink> Or kidnap Pikka and force him to make one
21:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... there is one, or not?
21:10:24 *** Cap_J_L_Picard has quit IRC
21:12:05 <dasy2k1> if anyone knows of one i would like a link
21:13:47 <Bjarni> do Britain have trams today?
21:21:31 * Bjarni detects signs of lack of sleep
21:21:51 <Bjarni> either that or failure to multitask properly
21:26:25 <Bjarni> (before I screw up again)
21:26:26 <peter1138> (and no, does (duz) does not sound like DOS (doss))
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22:31:42 <SquireJames> i know about the percentages to show loading when a train is loading or unloading cargo
22:32:16 <SquireJames> but some of my stations, or possibly lines have them permenantly above them with a /\ or \/ icon next to it
22:32:56 <SquireJames> i thought it might be service status, but the numbers dont match
22:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> screenshot? savegame?
22:42:41 <SquireJames> i have a screenie
22:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> unless you can reproduce it in trunk, there is not much we can do about it
22:44:38 <SquireJames> well, its not a bug as such, it has no harmful effect
22:44:45 <SquireJames> i just wondered if anyone knew what they meant
22:45:42 <SquireJames> but, theres no trains at the platforms, and unlike trains they have a /\ a \/ or both next to it
22:46:02 <glx> the train is probably gone in depot
22:46:58 <SquireJames> aye, could be, well anyways as i said, it does no harm :)
22:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> is it normal that the incoming train chooses the used platform over the free one?
22:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm yeah, but that totally defeats the purpose of presignals...
22:51:14 <SquireJames> are we talking about my screenie or just "in general"
22:51:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> the train on the far left in your screenshot
22:52:36 <SquireJames> the one snaking into St.George?
22:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> oh, it's two half platforms
22:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> not one continuous
22:53:04 <SquireJames> I did it deliberately for my Suburban passenger trains
22:53:47 <SquireJames> not sure how efficient it is, but i prefer things to look real rather than these weird junction layouts
22:53:57 <glx> oh right I missed the non rail tiles
22:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> but the style of your junctions (lower right) needs serious improvement...
22:54:38 <SquireJames> I know, i've tried many
22:54:46 <SquireJames> but i can't get one that works right
22:55:03 <SquireJames> basically to give you an idea whats happening
22:55:56 <SquireJames> the white route trains are coal trains from Dunditch Colliery to the north east
22:56:20 <SquireJames> and a single, large coal train that passes through St.Georges from a colliery some miles away
22:56:42 <SquireJames> the pink route trains are the 2-6-4T hauled suburbans
22:57:23 <SquireJames> the gold route trains are the two 4-6-2 Merchant Navy hauled expresses
22:57:36 *** Dark_Link^skola is now known as Dark_Link^sleep
22:57:49 <SquireJames> one of which goes from St.George down the south east line, the other from Dunditch down the south east line
22:58:41 <SquireJames> the blue route trains are steel trains from the south west, heading to a large factory complex to the south east
22:59:01 <SquireJames> the red route trains are goods trains from the factory complex to dunditch
23:00:36 <SquireJames> so the only routes that junction doesnt need to cater for are trains from the north east to the north west or vice versa
23:01:24 <SquireJames> so, any suggestions?
23:03:31 <SquireJames> (if you need a clearer screenie, just ask :)
23:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> SquireJames: like i said, try to reproduce it in trunk, or report it to Chris82
23:06:10 <SquireJames> well, i meant the junction
23:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, there are pages on junction construction on the wiki... such a basic raster can never work efficiently without PBS
23:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> and even PBS junctions can be made look nice :)
23:13:43 <SquireJames> but most of the solutions require bridges and such
23:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have done quite some funny flat non-PBS junctions ;)
23:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> although i do not have a screenshot of those...
23:14:56 <SquireJames> what would you personally suggest?
23:15:08 <SquireJames> I usually try and use a large X pattern
23:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> anything where you can put in lots of signals, to reduce the number of blocking paths
23:17:17 <SquireJames> well im not sure i can fit any such junctions in that space
23:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> i only find screenshots of PBS junctions... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Johannes%20Transporte,%2014.%20Aug%201923.png
23:19:33 <SquireJames> well with PBS my big X junctions work quite well
23:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, but you don't have PBS...
23:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> other side of the hills: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Johannes%20Transporte,%201.%20Sep%201924.png
23:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> and the biggest junction of that (early) game: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Johannes%20Transporte,%2020.%20Okt%201925.png
23:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> note: BR 38 in double traction are damn expensive :p
23:25:32 <SquireJames> my Big X junctions look alot like those :) minus the clever tunnels and bridges
23:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, yes, there is still a lot of X style in there, but the unused track sections are heavily reduced
23:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> also, the "X sections" are only entered from 2 sides, not 4
23:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> another also, tracks are ordered LRLR, not LLRR
23:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> which might reduce the number of conflicting routes, but especially is more realistic :)
23:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't even know the axle scheme of the BR 38... looks like 1C1 or something
23:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> wheel arrangement: 2'C
23:33:34 <SquireJames> theres a model i've found on ebay, its a 4-6-0
23:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, that's what 2'C says :)
23:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> 2: undriven axles, ': loose mounting (turnable), C: driven axles
23:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> usual modern engines have axle scheme of Bo'Bo'
23:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> where o means each axle is driven independently
23:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> big engines have sometimes Co'Co'
23:36:51 <Rubidium> why is everybody bragging about their compile times?
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23:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> some mallet steam engines have axle schemes like (2'C)'(C2)
23:37:46 <SquireJames> i'm aware of the Bo-Bos, Co-Cos etc, but not these 2'C and so forth
23:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> they are "articulated" steam engines
23:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> in america, mallet engines are big monsters, in europe usually narrow gauge engines for sharp turns
23:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> this one would be a (1'D)'(D1)
23:42:06 * Rubidium wonders how fast I can do it at 600 MHz ;)
23:43:17 <SquireJames> I don't think we had any Mallets in Britain
23:43:29 <SquireJames> a Beyer-Garrett or two but
23:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> americans even built "triplex" engines: (1'D)'D+D1'
23:44:35 <SquireJames> ah i've heard of those
23:46:01 * ThePenguin is trying to compile ottd
23:46:05 <ThePenguin> What is dmksctrl.h?
23:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> probably a file from the directx sdk?
23:46:49 <ThePenguin> I have the Directx 10.1 SDK and Windows SDK is that ok?
23:46:58 <glx> would be easier if you tell us what is your compiler
23:47:14 <ThePenguin> Visual C++ 2008 Beta 2 Express Edition
23:47:28 <SquireJames> my new junction Eddi
23:47:39 <glx> ThePenguin: check the paths
23:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... the 4 tracks to the coal station look superfluous... tried to reduce those to 2?
23:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> also, 2 way section on the left is probably a bad idea
23:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> that is virtually crying to get blocked
23:52:11 <SquireJames> well otherwise my heavy coal train from the north west can't go through the white through lines
23:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, that should probably get handled differently
23:53:23 <Rubidium> hmm, with a little tweaking and knowledge you can recompile OTTD (after a make clean) in 55 seconds at 600 MHz (at debuglevel 2)
23:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> i would now remove the bridge, and tunnel those 2 coal tracks instead
23:54:25 <SmatZ> Rubidium: with ccache and/or distcc ?
23:54:52 <Rubidium> only ccache, distcc would be really cheating
23:56:00 <SquireJames> but, they wouldnt be able to surface before the station
23:56:16 <SquireJames> and i cant delete that brick arch bridge as it carries my trams
23:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can remove the two middle platforms, if they are only passed by coal trains
23:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can place arbitrary stuff under bridges
23:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> that means you can place the coloured signs where now the station is
23:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> branch the northwest coal line where now the signs are
23:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> and start the tunnel where now the bridge is
23:57:57 * ThePenguin is happy. Compiler looks like it is going to complete
23:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> and have the lines crossing the tunnel further to the right
23:59:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> understand what i am saying?
continue to next day ⏵
