IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-08-06
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00:44:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10802 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
00:44:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Feature: Added availability dates for airports, using callbacks. Gui modified to disable unavailable airports. If no airports available at all, airport placement disabled.
00:44:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Small airport: 1932-1975 (late early start for testing purposes).
00:44:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Commuter airport: 1971-2175.
01:25:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10803 /branches/NewGRF_ports/bin/data/ (rb_airport2.grf sprites/rb_airport2.nfo): [NewGRF_ports] -Change: simplified small airport availability callback
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03:10:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10804 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/airport_gui.cpp:
03:10:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Gui failed when layouts were not contiguous. eg. 01 and 07
03:10:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Replaced _airport.orientation with _airport.layout_set to aid clarity. Added _airport.direction to store the actual direction. Added search and translation of clicked direction to _airport.layout_set.
03:11:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10805 /branches/NewGRF_ports/bin/data/ (rb_airport2.grf sprites/rb_airport2.nfo): [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Cleaned up some reported grfcodec warnings.
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03:18:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10806 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (bin/data/airports.grf src/airport_gui.cpp):
03:18:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Moved orientation buttons to match height of preview window.
03:18:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Updated airports.grf with skidd13's version of daylight's arrows. Many thanks to both.
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04:15:43 <iratsu> how stable is the AI in multiplayer patch?
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04:29:12 <lws1984> now there should be someone in here who knows something about the inner workings of OpenTTD
04:30:40 <seiffs> anyone I could ask something?
04:34:26 <lws1984> just out of curiosity, seiffs, what timezone are you in?
04:35:24 <lws1984> you'll have better luck in the afternoon
04:35:42 <seiffs> I'm going to work in 5 minutes
04:35:56 <seiffs> what timezones are ppl from here?
04:36:59 <seiffs> ok, so I'm leaving... c u maybe later, have a nice day (or night :) )
04:37:15 <lws1984> it's a lovely morning, isn't it.
04:38:51 <lws1984> glad you found it, seiffs
05:18:35 <Noldo> I wonder what it was that I was doing on friday before going home
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06:24:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10807 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1108]: keep_all_autosaves always got ".sav" as filename, which basically means that it only kept the last autosave.
06:36:27 <eekee> TTDPatch compatible nonstop handling means I can use stations as waypoints, right?
06:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, it is basically a misdescription
06:39:50 <eekee> ok.. then with it enabled I can use multi-track stations as multi-track waypoints?
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07:44:23 <hylje> that's not so funny as it gives it up right in there
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07:47:57 <simon888> someone show it running openttd
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07:57:58 <simon888> check out the new iMac
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08:54:22 <alex__> question, is there any way of increasing the train service period from 120 days?
08:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a setting in the patches | vehicles tab, for the default service interval
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08:58:49 <Nickman> you here TrueBrain? :)
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09:32:36 <dihedral> simon888: that mac image you posted is nothing but a HD Cinema Screen!
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10:02:54 <lion12> Played around with the newGRF airports - promising feature... Came up with a question though.
10:02:58 <lion12> How will the cardinal points labelling be translated? One airports.grf for each language?
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10:07:37 <alex__> are there going to be airports bigger than 4 runways at some stag?
10:09:53 <lion12> Noldo: in airports-gui, yes
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10:10:05 <lion12> I don't think it's good to have graphical labels. What's the problem with using an textlabel and showing only the arrow on each button?
10:12:25 <simon888> dihedral, it is the new iMac.
10:13:08 <Noldo> lion12: you'll have to ask richk
10:15:27 <lion12> will post in the forums then
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10:48:26 <simon888> that purple dude is gay
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11:11:44 <Tekky4346> Hi, OpenTTD 0.5.3 RC2 has been out for a whole month now. Wouldn't it be appropriate to declare this version to be the next stable version? Currently, 0.5.2 is still listed as the latest stable version on the download page.
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11:12:07 <Gekkko`> Tekky4346: it's not stable
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11:16:30 <simon444> Tekky4346, we all use nightlys
11:16:50 <simon444> Tekky4346, start writing those patchies
11:17:08 <simon444> version 0.6 is around the corner
11:17:39 <Maedhros> the corner may be a while away, though
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11:30:09 <Gekko> it's so long it seems to be straight
11:30:14 <Gekko> but that 0.1 degree turn is just enough
11:31:56 <Noldo> Tekky4346: the RC will be called stable if stands some test of time
11:36:18 <Maedhros> ooh, openttd's in freebsd's ports
11:36:24 <Maedhros> it's 0.5.0 though :-/
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11:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> means they are like half a year behind :p
11:36:54 <Tekky4346> simon444: I should start writing patches? Which patches are you referring to?
11:43:55 <Rubidium> Tekky4346: there is an annoying regression in 0.5.3-RC* that I want to be fixed first (FS#998)
11:44:24 <Maedhros> Noldo: yes, but it doesn't give any indication of how long newindustries is going to take
11:44:47 <Noldo> Maedhros: true, seeming isn't the whole picture
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11:46:04 <Noldo> Rubidium: Could the CommandCost class be used to convey the expence type information too ?
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11:47:40 <Rubidium> that's technically possible, though I wonder how you would handle adding commandcosts with different expense types
11:48:56 <Noldo> in a.AddCost(b) the a would hold the expence type ?
11:50:23 <blathijs> Rubidium: Either forbid it or simply let CommandCost hold a value per type
11:51:03 <blathijs> might be more flexible I think, commands can then decide their own cost types and use mixed cost types
11:51:23 <blathijs> though the first is already possible I think, but uses ugly global vars?
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11:54:01 <Rubidium> having multiple types within a command cost is maybe nice, but might complicate stuff
11:54:14 <Rubidium> on the other hand, we could just make it a linked list of command costs
11:56:23 <Noldo> ok so I will try and then we will se how it goes. I did similar patch that got rid of _yearly_expences_type already but didn't show it to anyone
11:58:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10808 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r10353): Make sure spectators can't open infrastructure building menus.
12:02:25 <ln-> why _yearly, why not _annual?
12:10:25 <Gekko> yearly is easier for non-english speaking people?
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12:20:03 <Tekky4346> Rubidium: thx for answering my question before.....
12:20:34 <Tekky4346> Rubidium: thx for answering my question before
12:20:53 <Tekky4346> oh, sorry for double post...
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12:47:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10809 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10097): When reversing, articulated parts of road vehicles should not attempt to do their own pathfinding.
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12:54:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10810 /trunk/src/roadveh_gui.cpp: -Fix (r10097): Add a comma between different cargo types if an articulated vehicle carries more than one cargo.
12:54:30 * Maedhros pretends that commit never had to happen
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12:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you could try jedi mind tricks, but they won't work on strong minded persons :p
13:06:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10811 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10097): Refit all the parts of an articulated road vehicle, not just the first part.
13:45:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10812 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10097) [FS#1093]: Make RoadVehicle::MarkDirty() mark all parts of articulated vehicles as dirty, not just the front.
13:45:05 <Maedhros> uhm, what are you talking about?
13:46:18 <Rubidium> Maedhros: /ignore simon*
13:46:41 <Maedhros> could be a plan, yeah ;)
13:47:37 <seiffs> hi, could anyone pleae help me? there's this problem: I play openttd, everything worked fine until one day when I clicked local authority in any town there was nothing to do (the menu with bribing, building financing, statue contruction, road recontruction is gone) and I have a lot! of money... does anyone know whats the problem?
13:49:17 <simon444> click the more button
13:49:23 <simon444> or something like that
13:49:29 <simon444> it is the one in the middle
13:50:47 <simon444> err let me open the game
13:50:52 <simon444> seiffs, what version?
13:51:44 <simon444> town name > local authority
13:51:59 <seiffs> and there's no action to buy
13:52:17 <simon444> maybe Maedhros would know
13:52:46 <Ammller> seiffs: update to current version and try again
13:53:24 <seiffs> I will tell when its done
14:08:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10813 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp station.cpp): -Fix (r10799): some destructors were performing too much during the pool cleanups, which could cause crashes as already removed pool items could then be dereferenced by other destructors.
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14:35:11 <_42_> orudge, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel.
14:35:17 <orudge> this one isn't as clever as patchbot.
14:35:23 <orudge> patchbot tells you when they last spoke ¬
14:36:13 <_42_> simon444, if you can't see orudge here right now, you probably need new glasses. ^_^
14:36:51 <_42_> simon444, alexalex (~email@78.86.15.85) was last seen quitting #openttd 17 hours 34 minutes ago (05.08. 21:01) stating "Quit: ircN 8.00 for mIRC (20070730)" after spending 2 hours 36 minutes there.
14:37:07 <_42_> simon444, simon888 (~simon@203-214-137-16.perm.iinet.net.au) was last seen quitting #openttd 3 hours 40 minutes ago (06.08. 10:56) stating "Ping timeout: 480 seconds" after spending 1 hour 50 minutes there.
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14:37:48 <simon444> so your that newbie...
14:38:31 <simon444> a required skill to live
14:40:53 <simon444> shit I would of been the last one to get killed if there were 40 people
14:41:17 <simon444> i.e. the survivor would kill me
14:42:18 <simon444> but if there was 50 people I would live
14:42:24 <simon444> guess my maths isn't that bad
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15:00:42 <skidd13> If I zoom out I get this assertion in the latest trunk: spritecache.cpp:471: const void* GetRawSprite(SpriteID, bool): Assertion `sprite < _spritecache_items' failed.
15:00:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10814 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp roadveh_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#1103]/Codechange: allow trams to be reverse manually, even though there is no track to do so.
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15:02:19 <Rubidium> that should also happen when you scroll around; sounds like some newgrf issue though.
15:03:17 <skidd13> Rubidium: Yes, but a lot less. Hmm I test it without newgrfs
15:04:10 <Rubidium> skidd13: because you don't get the sprite that is actually causing the issue to be drawn all the time when scrolling around zoomed in. When you zoom out it has to draw it with a much larger likelyhood
15:04:50 <skidd13> Rubidium: Removing all grfs does not solve the issue.
15:05:00 <skidd13> Maybe my savegame is broken?
15:05:28 <Rubidium> though I need some way to reproduce it
15:07:44 <skidd13> Now I notice that there are some "killer" points on the map. Shall I post the savegame to FS?
15:09:44 * Maedhros wonders how to stop articulated road vehicles using normal road stops, especially with multistop
15:10:15 <Rubidium> forbid them in the pathfinder?
15:11:02 <Maedhros> eep. pathfinders scare me :p
15:12:37 <Rubidium> maybe you could ask KUDr to help
15:13:16 <skidd13> Rubidium: Got the file?
15:14:09 <Rubidium> img=16777197 <- that doesn't look right to me
15:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> <orudge> !seen peter1138 <- try @seen
15:17:09 <skidd13> Rubidium: this looks really somewhat out of range.
15:18:09 <DorpsGek> orudge: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 38 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <peter1138> "mmm, rhubarb crumble"
15:19:05 <Maedhros> "colours" is not a spelling mistake
15:20:27 <Eddi|zuHause> actually it is, because the latin origin does not contain an "u" :p
15:20:41 <Rubidium> in Firefox's UK English dictionary though
15:24:57 * Maedhros goes to install a proper dictionary :p
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15:34:44 <simon444> a few thousand bytes
15:40:25 <dihedral> now lets learn what 'spot the diff' means, and 'run a diff', etc.
15:41:18 <rav> if you think the offer stinks, tell me now :p
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15:44:52 <rav> I think its an awesome offer btw
15:45:13 <rav> here in dutchieland the camera costs 750 euros, and that includes just 1 lens
15:45:18 <dihedral> you'll probably just get the catalogue with all accessorise
15:45:43 <rav> the seller's got a 98.5% positive feedback
15:46:02 <dihedral> whats the missing 1.5% for?
15:46:25 <dihedral> better yet, get him to send you some close up pictures of the lcd screen and the lenses
15:46:48 <dihedral> just so you can make sure they aint too badly scrached
15:46:55 <dihedral> if he responds, good
15:47:37 <rav> it's still a lot of money, but for that camera it's quite a bargain
15:48:23 <rav> the negative / neutral comments are usually about shipping
15:48:47 <rav> one guy actually expected overnight shipping to a militairy address in europe :
15:48:54 <dihedral> get in tough with the guy and see how he responds, is what i would suggest
15:54:35 <aneb> i opened a new openttd server named fswh openttd server in the server list
15:54:39 <rav> shipping is just 79$ + 7% for insurance :)
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16:01:37 <simon444> rav, I sell Sony cameras
16:03:45 <simon444> rav, I suggest buying from Hong Kong
16:04:14 <simon444> just be careful not to buy counterfeits
16:09:29 <rav> is it even cheaper there?
16:09:53 <rav> paypal buyer protection isnt valid in hongkong
16:16:53 <simon444> rav, yes. delivery is cheaper too. no sales tax.
16:18:34 <aneb> openttd is taking too long to join my server.
16:18:57 <aneb> Client #3 is dropped because it took longer than 296 ticks to start the joining process
16:20:22 <simon444> Segmentation fault (core dumped)$#$
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16:44:51 <Rubidium> aneb: that was a client that connected but didn't do anything after the initial connect (TCP level)
16:49:12 <aneb> Rubidium: so how do i makje openttd do something
16:50:56 <Rubidium> you have to make sure you've got a stable connection to the server, because that's most likely the problem you've got
16:51:34 <aneb> Rubidium: stable connection? i have port forwarding working...
16:51:56 <Rubidium> well, wireless networks can be unstable
16:52:15 <aneb> my network is alll wired
16:54:27 <Rubidium> the fact is that a lot of people use multiplayer and it works correctly for them, so there must be something specific in your situation that makes it break. I can give you some general ideas what might be wrong, but I don't have a crystal ball so I can see what exactly is wrong in your situation.
16:54:46 <aneb> Rubidium: ummm, when i refresh the public ip entry in the server list for a few times it says that the server is offline
16:55:27 <aneb> dbg: [NET] Cannot resolve
16:55:27 <aneb> dbg: [NET] Cannot resolve
16:55:48 <Rubidium> well, that isn't the reason why you can't connect
16:55:52 <Rubidium> anyway, how's the server called?
16:57:23 <aneb> also note that the LAN IP is listed and connects fine
16:59:11 <Rubidium> oh, you're trying to connect to server at the public IP
16:59:21 <Rubidium> that's a kind-of known issue with most firewalls
16:59:58 <aneb> and d-link support says that the router doesnt support loopback
17:00:10 <Rubidium> they do not do portforwarding of the external IP for connections coming from the internal network
17:00:18 <Rubidium> then there's your problem
17:00:35 <aneb> so i gess i have to hack around it
17:00:43 <Rubidium> just connect to the local ip
17:00:44 <aneb> by connecting to my lan ip
17:01:33 <aneb> and btw how do i state the rules whats the norm?
17:03:40 <aneb> rules for users connecting to my server....
17:04:22 <Rubidium> don't know exactly (don't run my own server), but there are plenty of people asking the same question at the forum
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17:54:48 <simon444> <calleja> sagrario castillo TAMAYO
17:55:20 <simon444> what does all this mean?
17:59:59 <aneb> simon444: that is spanish or portugese, but i am not either :-)
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18:29:36 <Chris82> I have a little problem, when I add the increase construction costs near towns patch and activate it the game crashes in scenario editor when I level land or build roads
18:30:04 <Chris82> a debug version leads me with an access violation to this line of my patch: uint distance = DistanceSquare(tile, t->xy);
18:30:07 <Chris82> is something wrong with it?
18:31:05 <blathijs> Chris82: Sounds like "t" has a null or other wrong value
18:31:33 <Chris82> well I added +1 in all the calculations to avoid division by zero
18:31:51 <Chris82> so the following code looks like: cost.MultiplyCost(((t->population / 408) * (1024 / (distance + 1)) / 2) + 1);
18:31:56 <Chris82> so distance can't be 0
18:32:09 <Maedhros> yes, but if there are no towns t will be NULL
18:32:28 <Chris82> ahhhh let me see if having a town avoids the crash
18:35:36 <Chris82> hmmm bad I can't load trunk scenarios with ChrisIN =O
18:36:00 <Chris82> must have overlooked something that only affects scenario savegame compatibility, because trunk savegames work fine from any version
18:37:06 <Chris82> ok you were right, when there is a town the editor doesn't crash the game when the patch is enabled
18:37:19 <Chris82> how do I avoid this segfault? i.e. t being NULL
18:37:56 <Chris82> make (((t->population / 408) * (1024 / (dist + 1)) / 2) + 1); -----> ((((t->population + 1) / 408) * (1024 / (dist + 1)) / 2) + 1);
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18:46:28 <Maedhros> no, you're still using t ;)
18:46:42 <Maedhros> if it's NULL, you can't use it
18:46:55 <UnderBuilder> my idea for a better control to sabotagers: create a big official server, close the others and reclute the admins for moderating the 'super-servers'
18:47:46 <Chris82> hmmm and is something like if t != NULL possible?
18:47:54 <Chris82> so the whole code is only execute if t isn't NULL
18:48:22 <aneb> Chris82: yes.... this is C after all, and comparisons are possible ;-)
18:48:30 <aneb> Chris82: why did you ask?
18:49:28 <UnderBuilder> the enormous server should be divided into several maps where players can manage their companies
18:49:51 <Chris82> aneb: because my increase construction costs near towns patch crashes the game when leveling land in scenario editor and there are no towns
18:50:19 <aneb> Chris82: no, that wasn't what i was referring to.
18:50:47 <UnderBuilder> shortly, transform OTTD's MP into a MMOSim (or whatever) game type
18:51:02 <Chris82> oh which question were you referring to?
18:51:31 <aneb> Chris82: (02:47:42 PM) Chris82: hmmm and is something like if t != NULL possible?
18:52:41 <Chris82> well because I always think of NULL as being nothing and not 0
18:52:49 <Chris82> so I wasn't sure if a comparison like that is possible
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19:19:54 <simon444> tomoliveri@gmail.com
19:25:26 <Chris82> ok the scenario editor crash is fixed :) now I just need to fix the problem that I can't load trunk scenarios with ChrisIN
19:31:15 <glx> scenario are like savegames so it's strange
19:33:08 <Chris82> I thought so too, but obviously there's a difference
19:33:24 <Chris82> I always only tested savegames with ChrisIN and they work fine, but no scenario works
19:34:38 <Maedhros> there's no difference at all except for the file extension afaik
19:34:41 <Chris82> a 0.5.2 scenario loads fine, only trunk scenarios don't work
19:35:18 <Chris82> let me re-create a scenario, maybe it's only a bug with the file itself
19:35:47 <Maedhros> i really need to stop designing layouts as if i could use pbs with them...
19:38:28 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
19:40:15 <Chris82> hmmm a trunk scenario r10814 with an empty map can be loaded
19:42:34 <Chris82> nevermind there seems to be no problem loading scenarios
19:42:45 <Chris82> the file I had was either corrupted or there was a bug in trunk that's been fixed :)
19:43:06 <aneb> is there an alternative way to zoom in and out
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19:50:13 <Wolf01> why not pgup and pgdown?
19:50:57 <simon444> tomoliveri@gmail.com lol
19:51:01 <Wolf01> because i don't have num+ and num- :0)
19:51:16 <TrueBrain> so try them without num
19:51:29 <TrueBrain> simon444: you do realise you are asking for a nice little kick?
19:51:59 <Wolf01> what's about the wince build?
19:52:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10815 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/airport_gui.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Waypoints class check from newstation code was preventing listing of new classes.
19:53:00 *** DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan
19:53:25 <Wolf01> have you succeeded to fix the mouse?
19:54:19 <Wolf01> now remain only the auto-landscape-switching for the screen
19:55:48 <TrueBrain> not on my priority list :)
19:55:54 <simon444> tom was using my computer for a while
19:56:13 <simon444> my chin is swelling a little from the punch
19:58:45 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: minor other things need to be done too: locale detection, free-diskspace
20:00:05 <Wolf01> ah, did you remember i talked about a leak which drained the battery? it happens with every "big" program
20:00:16 <TrueBrain> so not my problem :) Hehe!
20:00:32 <Wolf01> so i think is a bug of windows or the firmware itself
20:01:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
20:02:41 <Wolf01> seem like that windows tries to swap continuously the ram also when not needed after closing the program... if it can swap something
20:03:37 <Wolf01> i try to install every software i can in the flash card
20:03:48 <Wolf01> i have 2gb for this ;)
20:33:20 <aneb> Wolf01: simon444 is not a bot
20:35:30 <Prof_Frink> He fails the turing test...
20:36:48 <Prof_Frink> Well, Sacro's a gnome from Jupiter
20:38:25 *** johnsonp has joined #openttd
20:52:33 <Wezz6400> it also shows that anyone with a good sense of humor can start a succesful webcomic
20:58:14 <Prof_Frink> xkcd is a simple test for geekhood.
21:03:42 <Wezz6400> whoa somebody's busy on fs :D
21:04:37 <Rubidium> just a minor rearrangement of statuses
21:06:48 <TrueBrain> now at least there is more clearness what is going on :)
21:07:30 <Wezz6400> heh yeah it's a monks work (you know what I mean ;) ) but if done properly very useful
21:07:59 <TrueBrain> too bad it can't be done properly within the current system
21:08:02 <TrueBrain> which annoys the hell out of me
21:08:20 <TrueBrain> take those patches... all nice and all, but I hav eno idea which patch is code-checked, which is good, which is bad, which is worth looking at....
21:08:53 <Wezz6400> stupid question, why don't you ajust flyspray to fit those needs?
21:09:07 <TrueBrain> not only is it hard, it is not designed with that in mind
21:09:19 <TrueBrain> which makes it a hack, which is rarely a good thing :)
21:09:42 <TrueBrain> hmm, reminds me of an old project of mine I maybe should just finish...
21:09:43 <Wezz6400> i don't suppose there is a tool which does support that
21:10:39 <TrueBrain> a very simple system
21:13:02 <Prof_Frink> TrueBrain: Looks good
21:13:42 <Prof_Frink> Something to placate those who constantly whine "Why isn't foopatch in trunk yet?"
21:13:45 <hylje> is this under development?
21:14:03 <TrueBrain> it is an old draft of mine, to improve user <-> developer interaction
21:14:24 <TrueBrain> As in my experience, the users mostly don't get why their patch isn't accepted
21:14:48 <hylje> if you can host a python app, i could donate a patch tracker
21:15:06 <TrueBrain> hylje: depends very much on what it give s:p
21:15:35 <TrueBrain> as what I like to have, is a simple system that creates binaries out of patches, so users can try it
21:15:54 <hylje> hmm, could compilefarm be harnessed?
21:16:19 <TrueBrain> it already has code to allow custom patches
21:16:25 <TrueBrain> via a secure gateway I can insert them
21:16:37 <TrueBrain> the only downside is that the patches need checking :)
21:16:47 <TrueBrain> I once worked on a jail-system
21:16:59 <TrueBrain> but that..... never made it out of hte draft :)
21:17:17 <TrueBrain> the whole compile-farm needs a redo btw..
21:18:01 <hylje> all i need to learn how-to is the help popups for implementing the draft
21:18:34 <TrueBrain> hylje: sorry? I didn't follow that for one bit :)
21:18:42 <TrueBrain> hylje: anyway, you have a website or shots of your patch tracker? :p
21:18:52 <hylje> i just came in contact with said draft
21:19:01 <hylje> its not likely i can whip up a prototype in a few minutes
21:19:22 <TrueBrain> oh, sorry, I thought you ment you had a system
21:19:27 <hylje> and anyway, i just dont grasp how to do pop up notes yet
21:19:41 <TrueBrain> hehe, you want to build this system, okay, sorry, misread you :p
21:19:45 <Prof_Frink> Hmm, could you do some clever linking and create a git branch for each patch put through the system?
21:19:59 <TrueBrain> Prof_Frink: VERY nice idea in fact...
21:23:06 <TrueBrain> anyway, hylje, coding this thing isn't the real issue currently :)
21:23:15 <TrueBrain> I first want to be sure it will be used, and it is useful to use
21:23:24 <hylje> most of the effort is in the design
21:23:41 <TrueBrain> which Itried to give with those drafts ;)
21:23:57 <TrueBrain> so I guess I first need some feedback on it
21:23:57 <Prof_Frink> TrueBrain: Just say that you will only accept to trunk patches that have gone through the system
21:24:05 <hylje> im whipping up the data structure that draft draws
21:24:16 <hylje> expect some comments on that
21:24:43 <TrueBrain> Prof_Frink: I am not the only developer
21:24:46 <TrueBrain> and I have many crazy ideas
21:25:02 <TrueBrain> (believe me, my draft-dir is longer then my patch-dir)
21:25:26 <TrueBrain> hylje: I rather have feedback on what it might be missing :)
21:26:02 <TrueBrain> btw, one side-condition on the site is that it runs in CLI based browsers :p
21:26:05 <TrueBrain> just for the fun of it :)
21:28:51 <TrueBrain> I wonder in which language it should be done... most of openttd.org is in PHP, but lately I favour Python..
21:29:15 <TrueBrain> PHP simply is bloat-ware
21:29:24 <Prof_Frink> Just to finish the LAMPPP stack
21:29:49 <Wezz6400> you can talk very long about it but in the end it just sucks
21:30:06 <Wezz6400> basicly because it tries to be everything but it succeeds in none of that
21:30:29 <TrueBrain> rav: it still is a killer for any machine
21:30:33 <Wezz6400> which renders a heap of half-finished junk that doesn't work the way you want it to
21:30:34 <rav> php isn't meant as a scripting language, not a programming language: you should keep that in mind
21:30:35 <TrueBrain> the memory foot-print alone....
21:30:49 <Wezz6400> php5 is supposed to be good OO
21:31:06 <Wezz6400> well try constructor overloading, doesn't work
21:31:08 <rav> yea, and I don't miss any OO functions (though I dont use them alot anymore)
21:31:11 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I considered it :)
21:31:18 <Wezz6400> what stupid OO language does not support constructor overloading >_<
21:31:21 <TrueBrain> install lighttpd and get the lua plugin
21:31:24 <TrueBrain> fast as lightning :)
21:32:06 <Wezz6400> if you are used to proper OO implementations such as java or c# or possibly c++ (I don't know c++ well enough to judge) trying to work OO in php is just a bitch
21:32:27 <TrueBrain> Wezz6400: just a matter of getting used to
21:32:28 <rav> yea, well it's pretty tough to use c++ for a website ;)
21:32:31 <TrueBrain> such things are there to overcome
21:32:50 <TrueBrain> my problems are more as seen as a sysop :)
21:34:21 <Wezz6400> the fact that you can overcome it does not mean php5 has a decent oo implementation
21:34:52 <hylje> lets get off the language debate and instead argue the implementation
21:35:22 <TrueBrain> Prof_Frink: the git idea is nice and all, but a bit bitching, as each patch can be against an othe rsvn revision, and... that makes it all a bit harder :)
21:35:46 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: just use a branch for each patch
21:35:53 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yes, that isn't a problem
21:36:00 <TrueBrain> but when a user upload patch against SVN r1
21:36:02 <Rubidium> you should be able to branch a specific revision
21:36:04 <TrueBrain> and later against SVN r100
21:36:08 <TrueBrain> how to add both to one git?
21:36:27 <TrueBrain> (what I liked about the idea was, that oyu can review the changes between 2 patches in an easy way)
21:36:33 <simon444> <rav> php isn't meant as a scripting language, not a programming language: you should keep that in mind
21:36:43 <Rubidium> revert patch in git, update to correct rev, apply patch
21:36:55 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: which doesn't help :)
21:36:56 <Rubidium> that destroys the ability to review changes though
21:37:05 <TrueBrain> so it removes the use of git at all
21:37:18 <simon444> the guys who originally hack it up intended it to be a html processor
21:37:38 <rav> simon: I know, it still is
21:37:55 <simon444> it was not engineered as a language
21:37:57 <TrueBrain> hmm, funny enough my draft has everything I want from such a system...
21:38:19 <simon444> just a specially hacked up version of c...
21:38:51 <Rubidium> the problem is that you can't view the difference between patches when they are made against other revisions
21:39:01 <rav> but it's easy to read and edit, which makes it extremely useful for websites :)
21:39:07 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: true true... too bad :p
21:39:13 <rav> but lets quit this discussion ;)
21:39:20 <Rubidium> and we all know that trunk changes cause conflicts... which makes it impossible to update one to the correct revision
21:39:20 <TrueBrain> then I suggest to add git support in this way: one can request a git url, in which he can commit his stuff
21:39:29 <TrueBrain> which links back to the review system, as if he uploads a new patch every time
21:40:04 <Rubidium> then the patch is always against the revision he started with
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21:41:12 <Rubidium> hmm, you mean the person gets full git access for that branch?
21:41:17 <Wezz6400> sounds to me like you guys are trying to work with a double version system with this svn and git stuff :X
21:41:26 <rav> yea, kind of confusing :p
21:41:28 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yes, why not? Easy to arrange, security wise
21:41:44 <TrueBrain> Wezz6400: not at all. SVN is the main version contorl system
21:41:53 <TrueBrain> it just doesn't allow easy branching or keeping track of local work
21:42:05 <TrueBrain> git does, so see it as a thin shell around svn :)
21:42:12 <rav> so git is svn + branch support? :)
21:42:20 <TrueBrain> not directly, but how we use it: yes
21:42:52 <rav> it seems useless to give each patch a different branch
21:43:02 <TrueBrain> in SVN, yes, in git, no
21:43:02 <hylje> hm how do i spit out syntax highlighting in vim
21:43:05 <Rubidium> git branches are *very* cheap
21:43:40 <simon444> <rav> '/me gives $2,-
21:43:46 <rav> I think someone (lifts hand) should make a system for patches
21:44:06 <rav> simon, I will have to deduct administrative costs :o
21:44:06 <TrueBrain> I think rav missed an essential part of this conversation
21:44:17 <rav> Im starting to think so as well :p
21:44:56 <Wezz6400> looks like it's a good idea for me to look into git then
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21:46:58 <rav> well, that setup doesn't seem like a complicated system :)
21:47:06 <rav> except for the last point that is :p
21:47:45 <hylje> in case you're interested in what i see the data structure
21:48:14 <TrueBrain> totally unreadable for me :p
21:49:43 <hylje> i could make it more human readable but that'd mean i'd have to write it down again
21:50:09 <Rubidium> hylje: no user "class"?
21:50:14 <hylje> Rubidium: it's elsewhere
21:50:42 <TrueBrain> but okay, I first wonder if my draft is good enough
21:50:47 <TrueBrain> does it contain all the things one needs?
21:50:59 <hylje> i didnt see anything in particular lacking
21:51:17 <Rubidium> that you'll know once it's implemented (prototype-phaseish)
21:51:47 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yeah, but by reviewing it forhand, you avoid total disaster ;)
21:52:13 <hylje> its not like the draft is a total enterprisey piece of obsidian
21:52:35 <rav> how about a code discussion page for each patch?
21:52:44 <hylje> rav: comments are right there
21:52:51 <TrueBrain> and FixThises too :)
21:52:55 <rav> Im no talking about general comments
21:53:31 <rav> I mean a page specially for the coding comments / questions the devs might have
21:53:31 <Rubidium> rav: you haven't read the details.txt, have you?
21:53:42 <Wezz6400> TrueBrain let me ask you a question, if you would start openttd now, would you use svn for a versioning system or git?
21:53:55 <hylje> rav: FixThises are dev->patchdev traffic
21:54:04 <hylje> rav: Comments are user->patchdev traffic
21:54:23 <TrueBrain> Wezz6400: for a big community, SVN is clear. Revisions go upwards, and one can refer to it
21:54:28 <TrueBrain> git is just a nice addition
21:54:58 <Rubidium> and svn would probably branchless (except stable branches) and git would be used for features
21:55:01 <TrueBrain> hylje: most of the time, but Comments will also be used for devs to say: I don't like it game-wise
21:55:12 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: exactly :)
21:55:20 <Wezz6400> I'm going to start a project soon, which is why I'm asking
21:55:30 <TrueBrain> Wezz6400: for small projects, use SVN
21:55:42 <Wezz6400> I read parts of the svn manual and that talks about branching, which it supports
21:55:54 <Wezz6400> I have no previous experience with svn so I don't know to what extend it does
21:56:13 <Rubidium> oh, the "cheap branching" propaganda ;)
21:56:14 <TrueBrain> it supports them perfectly, just not locally
21:56:47 <Rubidium> they are right with it, branching is cheap, but any sync with "trunk"/whatever other branch is expensive
21:57:25 <Rubidium> as in copy-on-writeish and syncing usually means lots of files with little changes
21:57:49 <Wezz6400> well when I think about branching I think about developing a game, first creating a version that can render terrain, objects and stuff, then creating an AI dev branch so you don't break the working alpha with crappy ai code in very early development
21:58:01 <Rubidium> which would result in duplicating lots of files
21:58:14 <TrueBrain> Wezz6400: it is oaky if you have revisions < 10000
21:58:24 <Rubidium> and in svn you can't really remove branches
21:58:26 <TrueBrain> and something like AI dev, I would suggest to give a SVN branch anyway
22:00:21 <Wezz6400> Well I have no idea how many revisions we'll reach, but I don't suppose you guys ever thought about reaching 10k back when you started out
22:01:40 <Wezz6400> Hmm I'll have to look into this, it's good to know though
22:01:49 <Wezz6400> Better do it now than halfway through
22:02:02 <TrueBrain> but okay, where to go from here with this review system..
22:02:09 <TrueBrain> creating the real page should be simple enough
22:03:10 <TrueBrain> hmm, k, if we do it in PHP, we can integrate it with the main site of openttd.org ;)
22:04:20 <TrueBrain> I rather pass on it too :p
22:04:49 <Wezz6400> You want to use PHP, but you don't want to write PHP :D
22:05:01 <hylje> he was utilizing sarcasm
22:05:14 <TrueBrain> Wezz6400: I never said I want to use PHP
22:05:21 <rav> writing php is one of the more simple and repetative jobs around
22:06:46 <hylje> i think ima too. ill probably get a prototype up tomorrow
22:07:06 <hylje> with most all of the draft 1's features
22:07:10 <Wezz6400> TrueBrain ok you considered it
22:07:38 <Wezz6400> you mentioned an advantage of using php
22:07:52 <TrueBrain> Wezz6400: I was talking to hylje
22:08:01 <Rubidium> ima -> iam -> i am -> I am
22:08:10 <Wezz6400> blegh I seem to be going around in circles tonight
22:08:21 <TrueBrain> hylje: don't rush too fast to a finish line :)
22:08:36 <hylje> it's just that simple still :p
22:08:53 <TrueBrain> just on the backend storage there are some things to take care of
22:09:20 <hylje> the prototype cares bugger all bout that
22:09:48 <Wezz6400> oh nice, wikipedia lists 25 version control systems :X
22:25:23 <TrueBrain> hylje: django is nice :p
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22:27:15 <simon444> too many people sleeping
22:27:31 <simon444> sleep in the 2 hour commute
22:27:49 <Prof_Frink> Doesn't work so well when it's a 20minute drive
22:31:24 <simon444> Prof_Frink, stop in the parking lot
22:31:41 <simon444> sleep might fit better
22:35:17 <simon444> the rumor mill says new imac will be cheaper
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22:49:05 <TrueBrain> hylje: what is missing in your design is the checklist, and their score
22:49:08 <TrueBrain> but okay, detail :)
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23:24:12 <simon444> peter1138, how many laptop miles is your penis?
23:24:39 <TrueBrain> @kick simon444 blabla, woef woef
23:24:40 *** simon444 was kicked by DorpsGek (blabla, woef woef)
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23:25:41 <Wezz6400> it's good to see my ignore list items confirmed :+
23:34:57 <Nickman> TrueBrain, you still here? or do you run away everytime I'm online? :D
23:35:16 <TrueBrain> nice post, I made it sticky
23:35:27 <Nickman> I'm going to bed to ;)
23:39:00 <simon444> peter1138, you can answer me when I get back
23:44:23 <DaleStan> That is actually an interesting question after all.
23:47:01 <DaleStan> And the same for 0.5.2.
23:56:37 <Sacro> I can post them for ArchLinux
23:57:00 <Sacro> seeing as hyphens are not allowed in the version number
continue to next day ⏵
