IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-07-14
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00:11:32 <ThePizzaKing> :o forums going to phpbb3
00:34:20 * Maarten slaps orudge. Work faster. ;)
00:35:31 * glx slaps Maarten. He does it as fast as he can. ;)
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00:38:46 <orudge> Maarten: it's all ready
00:38:49 <orudge> except for the search index
00:38:51 <orudge> just have to wait for that...
00:39:13 <orudge> no, I'd best wait for it to finish
00:41:16 <Digitalfox_Desktop> orudge, was the update a easy one, didn't happen any problems?? TT forums has a big data-base, so i thought it would take a while more to sort all problems that could happen...
00:43:21 <Digitalfox_Desktop> I never managed an phpbb data-base, but constantly hear a lot of people saying updating it is always a stressing thing, all things can go wrong...
00:43:42 <orudge> Digitalfox_Desktop: it was pretty simple, really
00:43:51 <orudge> I have done trial installs a few times
00:43:54 <orudge> took me a while to upgrade the theme
00:43:58 <orudge> but the actual conversion has gone fine
00:44:28 <Digitalfox_Desktop> You are using RC3 right?
00:45:55 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Was there a reason for not waiting for final, like wanting to see if had problems with tt forums to report before final??
00:46:57 <orudge> I'd performed updates with beta 4 or 5 (whichever one introduced the phpBB 2 converter), as well as with RC1, RC2 and RC3
00:47:00 <Digitalfox_Desktop> I'm not saying RC3 isn't stable, but people always fear messing with data-bases until final versions ;)
00:47:01 <orudge> so I've been doing this for several months
00:47:07 <orudge> I did find a few bugs in earlier versions
00:47:09 <orudge> which were reported and fixed
00:47:18 <orudge> RC3 appears to be stable enough for my own use
00:47:44 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Great, and now we can see what improvents it makes for TT forums :)
00:47:52 <orudge> it may take a while though
00:47:58 <orudge> indexing posts at 67 posts per second
00:48:00 <orudge> it's done up to 182,000
00:48:09 <orudge> only 418,000 more to go...
00:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's gonna take a while :)
00:49:25 <orudge> it's either that or an incomplete search index ;)
00:49:32 <orudge> this is actually going to be the only complete search index the forums have ever had
00:49:46 <orudge> as the original imported posts were never indexed fully, back in 2002
00:49:50 <orudge> nor were the AGMTT posts
00:49:54 <orudge> and a few others along the time
00:49:59 <orudge> so in a way, it'll give the database a nice refresher
00:50:06 <Digitalfox_Desktop> So that means an improvement over search performance?
00:50:33 <orudge> Oh yes, there should be an improvement
00:50:38 <orudge> the search feature is also a lot better
00:50:44 <orudge> should be easier to find what you want ;)
00:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it means you can actually reach those posts with the search function at all
00:50:48 <Digitalfox_Desktop> thata was what i was going to ask
00:51:47 <Digitalfox_Desktop> what improvements does the search search feature have? More commands or it's more reliable?
00:52:50 <Digitalfox_Desktop> I always thought in v2 the search function was a little unreliable.. I mean you get the word is type, but most of the times it isn't what i was looking..
00:52:57 <Belugas> it will be more "realistic"
00:54:14 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Belugas what are you doing here get back to work @ openttd ;)
00:55:13 <orudge> Digitalfox_Desktop: there are more options, but it should also be a bit more obvious how to tweak searches to get the best results
00:55:30 <orudge> phpBB3 is also friendlier to search engines
00:55:35 <orudge> so if all else fails, you can just use Google ;)
00:59:53 <Belugas> Digitalfox_Desktop, i was only taking a little time off :P
01:01:17 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Ok, i'll forgive this time... But don't forget the check i will send after THE work, so get to work ;)
01:01:57 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Belugas scuba this weekend?
01:04:05 <orudge> I've opened up the forums
01:04:11 <orudge> despite the search engine not being completely done
01:04:43 <Ailure> the layout feels a bit difrent
01:05:26 <glx> yes the "new message" icon drag&drop works :)
01:07:13 <orudge> Read the message in the News forum if you all would ;)
01:09:11 <Belugas> no scuba, Digitalfox_Desktop. I had more then enough last weekend :)
01:09:19 <Belugas> will be time for home improvement
01:10:56 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Looks great orudge :)
01:11:27 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Hum... Moderators name is in Blue and with green isn't easy to understand
01:12:22 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Like when you enter a section of openttd and it says whos the moderators, it's hard to read..
01:17:05 <NukeBuster> Does the black dot on topic icon mean I posted there?
01:33:23 <Belugas> it really feels faster, orudge :)
01:33:34 <Belugas> a bit different, but hey... can't stop progress :)
01:33:39 <orudge> well, it should be faster
01:33:46 <orudge> although, right now, the server is bogged down with crawling posts
01:33:49 <orudge> should be even faster when that's done ;)
01:34:08 <orudge> Digitalfox_Desktop: well, blue = local moderators, green = global moderators
01:34:16 <orudge> and yes, NukeBuster, that's what it means
01:38:37 <orudge> Digitalfox_Desktop: ah, yes
01:38:45 <orudge> there was always a problem with green on the old forum, too
01:38:51 <orudge> in that one couldn't read the green on the green
01:38:53 <orudge> not sure if there's much I can do
01:39:16 <Digitalfox_Desktop> Maybe white?
01:39:55 <orudge> well, no, I don't mean altering the user group
01:39:59 <orudge> but perhaps putting a background there or something
01:44:02 <Digitalfox_Desktop> good night everybody :)
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07:21:44 <HaloMaster> any one here use XFire?
07:32:34 <Smoovious> is it OTTD-related?
07:35:41 <Noldo> it seems to be some kind of launch MP games and IM application
07:38:05 <Smoovious> so... that'd be a 'no'?
07:40:32 <Noldo> depends on where you draw the line about being related
07:41:28 <Smoovious> I draw it at having anything t o do with, or any interaction with, OTTD
07:43:39 <HaloMaster> well, there a whole lotta people trying to get XFire to support OTTD
07:44:19 <Noldo> aha, so it is currently not related but people are hoping that would change
07:44:30 <Smoovious> do those people have anything to do with OTTD?
07:47:06 <HaloMaster> most of them play it (not the XFire devs)
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08:39:25 <Chris82> what's the size in bytes of an uint16 ?
08:40:23 <Rubidium> well, a struct with one uint16 might be 4 or 8 bytes large
08:40:33 <Smoovious> a uint16 is a 16-bit v alue... which is 2 bytes...
08:40:48 <TrueBrain> Smoovious: in general, but not by definition :)(
08:41:20 <Chris82> SLE_CONDVAR(Economy, max_loan_unround_fract, SLE_UINT16, IN_CHRISIN_SINCE(74), SL_MAX_VERSION), < I was asking because of this line
08:41:37 <Chris82> I need to add a CONDNULL for 70 to 73 to make trunk load with ChrisIN
08:42:25 <Rubidium> Chris82: you don't need CONDNULL
08:43:02 <Rubidium> SLE_CONDVAR(....., 70, LAST_OF_TRUNK), SLE_CONDVAR(......, IN_CI(74), SL_MAX_VERSION),
08:43:52 <Chris82> let me try that, the CONDNULL "hack" didn't work anyway
08:43:53 <Rubidium> and at some point in time LAST_OF_TRUNK + 1 == IN_CI(74) and then you can remove the ChrisIN saveload code
08:44:10 <Rubidium> (and replace LAST_OF_TRUNK with SL_MAX_VERSION)
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08:45:10 <Smoovious> btw, Chris82... I made an attempt to make a patch to save passwords, but the load/save routine were just a mess to follow... maybe you'd have better luck since yer dealing with that more?
08:45:23 <Smoovious> with th e daylength patch set high, it is a pretty big need
08:46:39 <Chris82> btw the bug with the daypatch mentioned in the thread is not really a daypatch bug
08:47:00 <Smoovious> not strictly no... but I can understand what he's getting at
08:47:06 <Chris82> I reverted two files from ChrisIN to add peters autosignals and forgot to re-add the daypatch to the train file
08:47:27 <Rubidium> Smoovious: where did you want to save the passwords?
08:47:35 <Chris82> ships, trucks and planes work fine, I only forgot the train code
08:47:49 <Rubidium> then you better remove the passwords all together
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08:47:58 <Smoovious> save the g ame... upgrade... reload t he game
08:47:59 <Chris82> isn't it more save to store them locally in a file?
08:48:10 <Smoovious> why remove thhem? being passwordless is thhe problem to begin with
08:48:13 <Rubidium> Smoovious: save the game, send it to the client, load the game
08:48:14 <Chris82> I mean what if I send someone my savegames, are those passwords encrypted?
08:48:27 <Smoovious> why send to the client?
08:48:36 <Rubidium> Smoovious: well, that happens in network play
08:49:16 <Rubidium> then you must not save them in the savegame
08:49:21 <Smoovious> no reason why passwords should be sent to someone else
08:49:41 <Smoovious> you sign into a game, queried for the password, reply, server decides it is correct, and continues
08:49:52 <Smoovious> but you should s ave them in t he savegame
08:50:13 <Rubidium> Smoovious: saving something in a savegame means it is going to be sent over the network to all clients that are connecting
08:50:37 <Smoovious> why can't you make a distinction if t hhe savegame i s being created for network play, or during a manual/autosave? makes no sense
08:52:00 <Chris82> Smoovious: I think the problem is, when storing a password only per person the savegame will be broken for anybody else
08:52:15 <Smoovious> frankly... t he c urrent practice of l osing everyones passwords when you need t o reload a saved game is i ntolerable
08:52:30 <Smoovious> I'm thinking server-side
08:52:44 <Smoovious> the clients of course, s hould only g et thhe passwords known to them saved
08:52:50 <Smoovious> but the server needs to s ave all of them
08:52:56 <Chris82> Maybe you can make some kind of back end to store savegames encrypted in an extra file
08:53:02 <Smoovious> I really don't see what ythe i ssue i s supposed to b e
08:53:04 <Chris82> so you don't have to deal with savegame issues
08:53:28 <Rubidium> Chris82: it looks ok to me
08:53:44 <Chris82> hmmm I get a chunk size error on loading trunk tho
08:53:53 <Chris82> I'll see what happens when I make LATEST_TRUNK 71
08:54:03 <Chris82> maybe 70 to 70 causes problems
08:54:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10557 /branches/noai/ (18 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added for all lists 2 valuators: DistanceManhattanToTile and DistanceSquareToTile, to get the distance from object to some tile you specify
08:55:49 <Rubidium> Smoovious: and what when the savegames that the server made are shown on a website (like Brianetta's servers do)?
08:56:34 <Smoovious> passwords shhouldn't be viewable to begin with
08:57:09 <Rubidium> when you *save* them in the savegame they are "viewable" for everyone
08:57:12 <Smoovious> these arguments just don't justify going passwordless
08:57:43 <Rubidium> no, but they do not justify saving them in the savegame for a single moment
08:57:57 <Smoovious> they're part of t he g ame...
08:58:28 <Smoovious> encrypt them based on a key file the s erver has in his intall d irectory or s omething if you want t o
08:58:29 <Rubidium> Smoovious: storing them in the savegame is like not having passwords at all
08:58:39 <Chris82> well that's why I suggested storing them in a server side file
08:58:46 <Chris82> the clients don't need that info stored
08:59:04 <Smoovious> no, it isn't like it... we don't have passwords already... storing them would be preferable
08:59:29 <peter1138> what's so hard about storing the password hash?
08:59:32 <Chris82> I think what he is saying is, that storing an unencrypted password in the savegame is like having no password
08:59:37 <peter1138> obviously you don't store the password itself...
08:59:59 <Smoovious> I'm not talking about having it unencrypted
09:00:04 <Chris82> I think it shouldn't be too difficult to crypt it somehow
09:00:38 <Smoovious> I'm t alkling about saving i t in the savegame... avoidi multiple files whenever possible
09:00:39 <Rubidium> if only you had a proper cryptohash
09:00:58 <Smoovious> this isn't a pentagon computer...
09:01:16 <Smoovious> it i s a game... if people are being s tupid with their password choices that i s on them
09:01:22 <Rubidium> no, but something that you break in like 2 minutes isn't good either
09:02:17 <Chris82> is it really that difficult to store a password let's say MD5 encrypted?
09:02:31 <Chris82> when I look at PHP code doing such things it doesn't look like too many lines
09:02:38 <Smoovious> but the current practice of reloading a saved game, and s igning into everyone's companies, resetting t heir passwords, and emailing them back out to everyone, is unacceptable
09:02:51 <Smoovious> Chris82... no, it isn't that difficult
09:03:17 <Chris82> well then I wouldn't see a problem with storing it in the savegame
09:03:19 <Smoovious> if someone else loads the game on a differentn install than it was created on, t hen ignore t he paswords ...
09:03:22 <Chris82> I mean MD5 is pretty secure isn't it?
09:03:23 <peter1138> we've already got md5...
09:03:34 <Rubidium> md5 isn't difficult, but you break that pretty quickly
09:03:41 <Chris82> and making **** in the game rather than blank passwords would be preferable too maybe
09:03:45 <Smoovious> what would be the point t ho
09:03:54 <Chris82> errr not blank you know what I mean :p
09:04:49 <Smoovious> I just wanna prevent people from signing into companies thhat aren't theirs, and screwing i t up...
09:05:05 <Smoovious> sometimes, ya need to reload a s avegame
09:05:06 <Chris82> I often reload multiplayer games
09:05:16 <Smoovious> especially long-play ones
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09:05:44 <Chris82> well so reserving x bytes for md5 encrypted passwords in the savegame shouldn't be that big of an issue and when loading that game locally those x bytes are simply flushed or whatever
09:06:07 <Rubidium> setting a "random" password when somebody begins a company isn't good; when that person disconnects he cannot rejoin his company because he "forgot" to set the password to something he knew
09:06:46 <Smoovious> you could have t hte password entry window open upon starting a new company tho
09:06:58 <Smoovious> won't stop s omeone from cancelling it, but i t'll remind people to set one
09:07:14 <Rubidium> oh, and it seems one can "crack" a MD5ed password in under 3 minutes with a lookup table
09:07:19 <Chris82> by default the password field should just be blank of course
09:07:41 <Chris82> why are all forums using MySQL using MD5 then?
09:07:42 <Rubidium> and don't start with "then we add a seed" because that needs to be stored in the savegame too
09:08:15 <Smoovious> Rubidium... but again... we're not talking any sensitive d ata here... the vast majority of people wouldn't be b othered to hack t he sav file t o locate t he paswords and do all that
09:08:18 <Rubidium> Chris82: because there you do not know both the seed and the md5 of the password (except the people who have actual access to the DB)
09:08:29 <Rubidium> Smoovious: the people who want to do damage do
09:08:37 <Smoovious> any reason why t he seed can't b e t he r andomizer seed?
09:08:54 <Chris82> but when someone would get access to the MySQL database he could hack all passwords?
09:08:57 <Smoovious> Rubidium.,. b ut they're g onna d o damage anyways... and t hat'll o nly work, if they have a c opy of the host's sav file
09:09:36 <Chris82> the problem is not that hacking the savegame is easy
09:09:42 <Smoovious> for t he players, have t hhem blank, except perhaps, for their o wn c ompany's
09:09:50 <Chris82> I think the problem is that some people might use passwords they use elsewhere too with OpenTTD
09:10:08 <Chris82> no need to tell me that this is stupid but I am sure some people do it
09:10:20 <Smoovious> that brings me back to people having bad password practices tho... and that being their o wn lookout
09:10:31 <Smoovious> it i s not enough justification to do away with the passwords
09:10:53 <Chris82> but still when finding a solution you need to consider that issue
09:11:32 <Smoovious> perhaps we should just use a military-grade encryption then?
09:11:35 <Rubidium> Smoovious: I agree with that, but any solution that makes the password easily retrievable in really short time (under a day) is not good
09:11:37 <Chris82> I mean I know company bosses who use their initials and birthday for corporate e-mail addresses :D
09:11:47 <Chris82> so don't think people would choose their OpenTTD passes wisely ;)
09:12:02 <Smoovious> it is b etter t hhan no paswords, which don't need any effort at all wh atsoever
09:12:23 <Smoovious> and a gain... t he server, which h as all of t hhem, would be t he o nly one saving all of t hem... the clients wouldn't need t o have them
09:12:36 <Chris82> is there something more improved than MD5 maybe that can't be hacked so easily?
09:13:03 <Rubidium> Smoovious: it's like leaving the engine running and the door open at the parking lot (what it is now) with closing the door of the car, but not locking it, and leaving the engine running
09:13:29 <Chris82> btw... where are the passwords stored now?
09:13:41 <Chris82> I mean I can join a server give my company a password close the game come back and the pass is still there
09:13:46 <Smoovious> Rubidium... exactly... and a practice I want t o stop
09:14:19 <Smoovious> Chris82... now they're in memory... but they are in the player.password (don't know exact name)
09:14:30 <SpComb> what we need is... DRM for openttd savegames!
09:14:45 <Chris82> good for any non Windows user :D
09:14:58 <Chris82> or can *nix handle DRM protected files?
09:15:11 <SpComb> embed a piece of copyrighted something in the samegave, and then slap anyone who decodes the savegame with the DMCA
09:16:11 <Chris82> so let me suggest something entirely different
09:16:27 <Chris82> why not offer a number field from which people can choose a 6 numbered pass
09:16:31 <Smoovious> orbital launchers for moving cargo?
09:16:38 <Chris82> and these are stored sha1, md5 or whatever encrypted then
09:16:50 <Chris82> this way we should force most people not to use their common passes
09:16:56 <Smoovious> Chris82... no, don't like that... not so easy remembered
09:17:08 <Smoovious> nothing wrong with common passes...
09:17:10 <Rubidium> Smoovious: yeah, lets use RC4...
09:17:27 <Smoovious> I usually re-use 3 d ifferent passwords, just for non-critical stuff... like OTTD
09:17:27 <Rubidium> do you have *any* knowledge of encryption?
09:17:28 <Chris82> never heard of rc4, where is it used commonly?
09:17:55 <Smoovious> Rubidium... some... hey... I'm just t hrowing o ut i deas... it i s what the T client uses
09:17:57 <Rubidium> Chris82: it's like AES or DES but then weaker
09:18:11 <Chris82> ah ok I know that from WLAN
09:18:15 <SpComb> no, what we need is triple RC-4
09:18:27 <Chris82> 1024-bit NSA keys *jk*
09:19:24 <Smoovious> just don't need to g o o verboard on th e encryption... don't wanna be like using a bank vault to secure m y gameboy
09:19:48 <Rubidium> *any* cipher is useless in this case
09:20:11 <Smoovious> well, no passwords is even m ore useless...
09:20:27 <Chris82> shouldn't MD5 be a lot more secure then
09:20:31 <Rubidium> so: no RC4, no RSA, no AES, no DES, no 3DES, no bluefish
09:20:32 * Smoovious nods agreement with peter1138
09:20:39 <Rubidium> Chris82: yes, RC4 is reversable
09:20:52 <Chris82> am I correct that MD5 isn't ?
09:20:55 <SpComb> Chris82: MD5 and RC4 are two differnet things
09:21:04 <Rubidium> peter1138: but... with md5 you've got the password in 3 minutes
09:21:07 <Chris82> I see, I thought both are encryption algs
09:21:13 <SpComb> one is a hash, the other is a cipher
09:21:37 <Smoovious> Chris82... they're for different uses
09:22:01 <Chris82> would it require more than just a savegame to md5 encrypt passwords like vBulletin or other common forums do it?
09:22:05 <Smoovious> RC4 really isn't appropriate, but I just t hrew it out anyways
09:22:35 <Chris82> i.e. two files to seperate hash and seed
09:22:54 <Smoovious> two files i s what I'd prefer t o avoid
09:22:56 <Rubidium> Chris82: the point in forums is that you DO NOT have the seed *and* the md5 of the data (except the site's administrator)
09:23:40 <Chris82> yeah but I thought even hacking the MySQL database would just give you useless crap and not passwords that can be recognized
09:23:41 <SpComb> peter1138: the link I gave above should find most common md5 hashes in seconds
09:23:43 <Smoovious> could keep a key file in ottd's home d irectory, that it refers to for encrypting passwords...
09:24:02 <Smoovious> unique to each host, so a d ifferent host c an't view the passwords
09:24:35 <SpComb> although, it seems to be broken
09:24:43 <Chris82> like the files created when using SSH ?
09:24:44 <SpComb> it was working a while ago when I last played with it
09:27:07 <Chris82> it's a one-way encryption (like md5).
09:27:22 <Chris82> I always thought there is no way you can get md5 back no matter what info you've got
09:27:28 <Chris82> you can read such stuff in many many places
09:27:39 <Rubidium> Chris82: you can't (always) recover the original
09:28:03 <Rubidium> *but* you can make a $something that yields the exact same return value of md5
09:28:14 <peter1138> you just need a big enough database :p
09:28:26 <Rubidium> well, you rather do not know whether it is the original (it might be)
09:28:26 <SpComb> Chris82: if two people hash 'foobar', they can compare their hashes and determine that both hashed something that hashes to the same thing that 'foobar' does
09:29:10 <Chris82> I see, well that drastically lowers my security point of view on md5
09:29:12 <SpComb> it's called the time/memory tradeoff, compile a gigantic list of plaintexts and their md5 hashes, and then start comparing them
09:29:35 <SpComb> well, that's how hashes work
09:29:41 <Rubidium> basically a hash can be simplified to "input value modulo (number of possibly return values)"
09:29:41 <peter1138> those databases only have 1-8 letter passwords, of course
09:30:05 <SpComb> iirc there are also vulnerabilities in the md5 algorithm that lets you generate collisions and whatnot
09:30:13 <Chris82> well but I am sure that maybe 2% of internet users use so called NSA save passwords
09:30:18 <SpComb> so if you have some plaintext, you can craft a different plaintext that hashes to the same value
09:30:24 <Chris82> i.e. multiple words, special characters, 20+ characters etc.
09:30:34 <peter1138> echo -n "this probably isn't in there" | md5sum
09:30:34 <peter1138> 9340d0823923e03d30a6c68d030740ad -
09:30:41 <peter1138> "9340d0823923e03d30a6c68d030740ad - Not Found in Database."
09:30:58 <SpComb> peter1138: it returns NFID for everything I tried, including 'foo' and 'foobar' and 'asdf'
09:31:05 <SpComb> so I think it's broken at the moment
09:31:16 <peter1138> echo -n "hmm" | md5sum
09:31:16 <peter1138> a5175faf6dc24adc7eda4f9cfc721b47 -
09:31:25 <peter1138> "a5175faf6dc24adc7eda4f9cfc721b47 - hmm"
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09:32:09 <Chris82> well but for hacking a password like hmm you don't need md5 "cracking" abilities :D
09:32:17 <Chris82> that can be done with bruteforce in no time as well
09:32:34 <SpComb> depending on what you want to bruteforce, attacking the md5 hash can be a lot faster
09:32:35 <peter1138> i was showing that it does work
09:32:44 <peter1138> so i dunno what spcomb was doing :p
09:32:55 <Chris82> it definitely avoids blocking due to too many password retries :)
09:33:08 <SpComb> hmm, it's not even responding now
09:34:12 <Chris82> well anyway I don't think that OpenTTD passes need online banking security standards
09:34:20 <SpComb> it'S more likely that it crashed and burned
09:34:31 <Chris82> so I wouldn't require more than not hackable within 1 day for such a patch
09:35:24 <Chris82> I mean, you can even hack pentagon computers, so pretending such a patch would make the passes inside the savegame totally secure is pretty unrealistic anyway
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09:36:04 <Smoovious> there's a point where you're just going o verboard i n relation to what is being protected by it
09:36:27 <Smoovious> I mean, hell... my money card i s protected o nly by a 4-digit number
09:36:45 <Chris82> maybe you could do some welcome message for a server that says warning your password is stored in the savegame
09:36:52 <Chris82> use something you don't use elsewhere blah blah
09:37:34 <Chris82> I mean even the rcon passes are stored readable in the .cfg file so that should be enough for company passes
09:37:54 <Smoovious> maybe remote fingerprint or retinal scanner support?
09:38:27 <Smoovious> sorry, but the whole convo seemed to get out o f hand to me... to the point o f s illiness
09:39:07 <Chris82> yeah just find the right mix between comfort and security and if it's not good the first time you can always improve stuff
09:41:10 <Chris82> SLE_CONDVAR(Economy, max_loan_unround_fract, SLE_UINT16, 70, LATEST_TRUNK),
09:41:15 <Chris82> is this definitely 2 bytes?
09:43:27 <Chris82> well I don't see why CONDNULL(2, 70, 73) when I am at 74 shouldn't work then
09:43:36 <Chris82> SLE_CONDVAR(Economy, max_loan_unround_fract, SLE_UINT16, 70, LATEST_TRUNK),
09:43:36 <Chris82> SLE_CONDVAR(Economy, max_loan_unround_fract, SLE_UINT16, IN_CHRISIN_SINCE(74), SL_MAX_VERSION),
09:44:00 <Chris82> it loads all ChrisINs and trunk until 10540 but not the newer ones
09:44:41 <Chris82> hmmm maybe I switch the order
09:44:45 <Smoovious> well... I gotta crash...
09:44:48 <Chris82> that shouldn't make a difference but who knows :D
09:44:52 <Smoovious> good luckk. Chris82
09:50:02 <skidd13> phpbb3 comes along nicely.
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09:51:31 <Chris82> is it better than vBulletin?
09:53:55 <Chris82> at least it looks pretty nice :)
09:54:12 <skidd13> I never used vBulletin for real. So I don't know.
09:54:48 <skidd13> I miss the icq, jabber, etc icons below the posts, but thats all.
09:54:51 <Chris82> well the problems I had with phpBB 2.x was that it worked badly with 100+ MB downloads
09:55:01 <Chris82> while vBulletin really plays nicely with such large attachments
09:55:44 <skidd13> And I noticed another thing I cant watch diff's anymore with my browser :(
09:56:53 <Chris82> for me they always opened as download
09:57:00 <Chris82> only patch files were shown in the browser
09:57:18 <Chris82> which is weird though because I specified text/plain as MIME Type for diff on my server
09:57:48 <skidd13> no, all text files seem to be downloads now :(
09:58:14 <skidd13> Or is there an option in FF to enable it again?
09:58:38 <Chris82> I think you can open it with the default app in FF, but that wouldn't be the browser I guess
10:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> somehow i find the idea of storing passwords in the savegame silly...
10:00:56 <skidd13> What are these bots and crawlers for (pink users)? An why are they shown for noram users?
10:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> save them in $(pwd)/.passwords or something...
10:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> they have nothing to do in the savegame
10:05:28 <Chris82> were there any saveload changes recently except r10541 ?
10:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> svn log <file that contain saveload code>
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10:46:53 <Chris82> yay! once again all savegame issues solved with the IN :D
10:47:12 <Chris82> time for new patches :D
10:53:37 <Chris82> I think I'll make an additional tab in the patch settings where all ChrisIN patch options will be placed
10:53:58 <Chris82> that should make it a lot easier to take a .cfg file from a trunk game and then only set the additional ChrisIN options
11:03:43 <Chris82> uhm, I just read this in another thread "No EXE unless you plan on uploading the *full* source. A diff is not sufficient."
11:03:58 <Chris82> so I must upload the full ChrisIN source somewhere?
11:04:22 <Chris82> I mean the source not in the diff is available on openttd.org already
11:14:18 <peter1138> sounds like bollocks to me
11:19:14 <Chris82> well a dev posted that on the forum :)
11:23:36 <Vikthor> Chris82: AFAIK according to GPL you must supply the the source upon request, not automatically
11:24:22 <Vikthor> Of course if he asks for it, you have to supply full source not only the diff
11:24:50 <Chris82> oki :) well it was not in my thread
11:24:50 <peter1138> Chris82: iirc that was dalestan, who is not a(n ottd) dev
11:25:10 <Chris82> I plan to make an SVN Server for the IN anyway
11:25:29 <Chris82> but that won't be earlier than in 2 weeks, because I am too busy with my exams right now
11:28:21 <Chris82> what is better English? ...Patches that are added... Patches which are added?
11:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> Chris82: if you intend to support this for a longer time, you might also try to claim a branch (and a nigtly compile time) like RichK did with the MiniIN
11:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, diff + link to original ottd source would suffice as "full source"
11:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> but given the context (tt-forums) you could state that accessing the ottd source is trivial
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11:49:45 <Chris82> Eddi: I intend to support it as long as I am able to solve any savegame or code issues :)
11:52:04 <TrueBrain> Chris82: let me know if you need any web-related things, like a branch, compile-slots on the compile-farm, a webpage, ...
11:54:34 <Chris82> sure thing :) we can talk about that when I'm done with my exams
12:00:41 <Chris82> { WWT_TEXTBTN, RESIZE_NONE, 3, 97, 183, 28, 39, STR_CONFIG_PATCHES_AI, STR_NULL},
12:00:50 <Chris82> can I find a description somewhere what alle these numbers mean?
12:01:05 <Chris82> I think the last two are the upper and lower distance from top of the button
12:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> in the header file where the widget type is declared?
12:01:35 <TrueBrain> looking at other entries mostly gives it away, but: color, left, right, top, bottom, string, hint
12:01:53 <Chris82> ah ok I think I got it :)
12:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> shouldn't colours have an enum?
12:05:45 <Chris82> ok so I've edited static const Widget _patches_selection_widgets[] = {
12:05:52 <TrueBrain> I need a new TV, my TV doesn't make my XBox 360 games readable :p
12:05:54 <Chris82> and static PatchPage _patches_page[] = {
12:06:02 <Chris82> and made a static const char *_patches_chrisin[] = {
12:06:05 <Chris82> what have I forgotten?
12:06:09 <Chris82> because the button is not clickable
12:09:08 <Chris82> ahh forgot to add a case in a switch in settings_gui
12:12:38 <Chris82> can I add a string instead of a patch option here static const char *_patches_chrisin[] = { "STRING as Title", }
12:54:47 <Chris82> hmmm what would be the easiest way to make building on a demolished tile the same price as building on a grass tile?
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13:17:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> Chris82: the clear cost of a clear tile is 0, so if you use MultiplyCost, that will not change, try an AddCost independent of the original cost
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13:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i do not agree with the general idea, because if the tile is cleared it means you already payed the cost to clear before
13:20:11 <Chris82> yes but I want to prevent an exploit in the Town Construction Cost patch
13:20:17 <Chris82> when you sell some land in the middle of a city it's sold
13:20:30 <Chris82> buying the land again shouldn't be cheap just because there is still garbage (brown tile) there
13:20:45 <Chris82> you don't own it anymore and have to pay the full price no matter if the tile is grass or cleared land
13:20:55 <peter1138> isn't that why the original patch did stuff with buy/sell land first?
13:21:22 <Chris82> but the way the original patch handles this doesn't work for all cases
13:21:33 <Chris82> you can still exploit the original patch by building rail on cleared land
13:22:41 <Chris82> what I intended to do is that if the patch is enabled you should get an error message when building on cleared land
13:22:55 <Chris82> the message should say something like "please wait until the garbage on this tile has been cleared"
13:25:33 <SmatZ> Chris82: can you just add a grass before the cost estimation/building, and the remove it?
13:25:48 <Chris82> I've tried that but that's too complicated
13:26:45 <Chris82> I just need to figure out in which function the cost is calculated and then add a condition that you get an error when the patch is enabled
13:27:45 <SmatZ> so any building on a cleared land - even for a city - will be blocked?
13:28:33 <Chris82> I just figured that's a problem when generating a map
13:29:05 <Chris82> MP_CLEAR is clear grassland right? What's cleared land then? CLEAR_GRASS or something like that?
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13:32:11 <Chris82> actually CLEAR_GRASS and MP_CLEAR seems to be the same?!?
13:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> buying/selling land might be an option, but then removing everything from the tile should turn it into owned land, not clear land
13:35:57 <Chris82> so you mean if I remove a rail tile it should be owned land instead of clear land?!
13:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, just because you remove the rail does not mean you sell the land (realistically)
13:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, if you use bulldozing tool on a house...
13:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> or generally any kind of bulldozing tool
13:39:07 <Chris82> but that would involve huge problems
13:39:19 <Chris82> I mean if I sell a piece of rail close to a city center I get a lot of money already
13:39:26 <Chris82> if the land is owned afterwards I can make even more money
13:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, make it so removing the rail piece costs the same everywhere
13:40:20 <Chris82> I found the solution I intended :D
13:40:42 <Chris82> I added two lines to CmdLandscapeClear function
13:40:43 <Chris82> if (IsClearGround(tile, CLEAR_GRASS) && GetClearDensity(tile) < 3)
13:41:03 <Chris82> instead of CMD_ERROR I actually want a ShowErrorMessage(string... but that doesn't seem to work for CommandCost functions
13:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, you have to create a new CommandCost with an error message
13:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> it will show that error message later in another piece of code automatically
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13:43:04 <Chris82> hmmm I can't demolish water with this line so I gotta add != MP_WATER or something like that
13:43:23 <glx> return CommandCost("message"); I think
13:44:19 <Chris82> I doubt such a return works, CommandCost is supposed to return numeric values as far as I understood it
13:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> it must be a STRING_ID or something
13:44:28 <Chris82> that's why it can't return a string
13:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> CommandCost is a struct, to separate prices from errors
13:44:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> it contains both
13:45:07 <Gekko[PD1]> 19:49:07 up 4 min, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.11, 0.06
13:45:24 <Chris82> yeah but CommandCost uses only CMD_ERROR iirc and ShowErrorMessage is only used elsewhere
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13:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gekko[PDA]: beat that: 15:29:32 up 3 days, 10:48, 5 users, load average: 28.20, 24.55, 14.90 :p
13:46:00 <peter1138> commandcost returns a commandcost value, that's the point of it
13:46:07 <peter1138> that can be numeric, or an error string
13:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean the load ;)
13:47:22 <Gekko[PDA]> i got my other pc to 400.
13:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, i forgot to turn on additional swap before making a memory intensive operation :p
13:48:25 <glx> Chris82: CMD_ERROR = CommandCost((StringID)INVALID_STRING_ID)
13:49:02 <peter1138> due to constructors, you can actually just "return STR_FOO;" iirc
13:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> in any way, you will probably have to add the "message" to the language files, and use the StringID of that message
13:54:16 <Chris82> yeah I added a string to the language file already :)
13:55:36 <Chris82> errr why... ..\src\landscape.cpp(413) : error C2065: 'STR_WAIT_UNTIL_CONSTRUCTION' : undeclared identifier
13:55:41 <peter1138> ^^ wtf is wrong with americans?
13:55:44 <Chris82> it's defined in english.txt
13:56:12 <glx> and lang files had been recompiled?
13:56:21 <peter1138> landscape.cpp doesn't include table/strings.h in trunk
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14:16:31 <Chris82> return _error_message = STR_WAIT_UNTIL_CONSTRUCTION; < works :D yay!
14:16:51 <Chris82> only problem is that the error message is at the left bottom of the screen lol
14:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> why _error_message?
14:19:53 <Chris82> well because CMD_ERROR just returns error foo and no specific message
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14:20:11 <Chris82> the suggestions from above all didn't work and I also don't see CMD_ERROR used anywhere where a string is returned in source
14:20:26 <Chris82> I just found an annoying thing anyway
14:20:36 <glx> what happens with return CommandCost(STR_WAIT_UNTIL_CONSTRUCTION); ?
14:21:17 <Chris82> 2>..\src\landscape.cpp(413) : error C2440: '<function-style-cast>' : cannot convert from 'StringIdEnum' to 'CommandCost'
14:21:17 <Chris82> 2> No constructor could take the source type, or constructor overload resolution was ambiguous
14:21:17 <glx> or return CommandCost((StringID)STR_WAIT_UNTIL_CONSTRUCTION);
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14:28:15 <Chris82> hmmm is it normal that all default error messages are displayed in some corner of the screen instead the middle of the screen?
14:29:39 <Sacro|Laptop> Chris82: yes, and it's a pain in the arse
14:29:51 <Sacro|Laptop> especially when they appear in the bottom right during multiplayer when other people are talking
14:30:15 <Chris82> yup that was what I just thought too
14:30:45 <Chris82> && type != MP_WATER && type != MP_HOUSE can I combine that somehow? that looks "ugly"
14:33:42 <DaleStan> Not likely. And even if it's possible, you probably shouldn't.
14:41:06 <Sacro|Laptop> hmmm, if i wanted to have a station with platform numbers, would i have to add some extra to the memory array?
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14:56:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10558 /branches/noai/src/squirrel_helper.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: don't use free'd memory (tnx glx for tracing!!)
15:18:12 <NukeBuster> 2 trains just crashed.... in a closed signal system...
15:19:10 <NukeBuster> no, station and pre-signals...
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15:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> autosave, reproduceable?
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15:26:07 <NukeBuster> hmm... i'll look for the autosave...
15:26:48 <NukeBuster> i didn't touch the ignore signal button... i'm 100% certain of that
15:27:37 <NukeBuster> it's reproduceble it happened again..
15:27:43 <NukeBuster> the signal doesn't go red
15:29:07 <NukeBuster> well, i got to eat first... i'll upload a save later.
15:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it IS a tunnel...
15:31:07 <NukeBuster> but there is a train in the tunnel waiting for the red light... that the other train in the crash
15:31:52 <glx> still related to tunnel/bridge and signals
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15:33:47 <NukeBuster> ok, didn't get that one...
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16:26:25 <Frostregen> hm, is it still possible to update an attachment in the forums? Or is the new way delete+add?
16:31:47 <Chris82> hmmm good question actually I just wanted to update some files too
16:31:54 <Chris82> would be too bad when the download stats would be gone then
16:42:03 <Frostregen> yup...and 1 click more
16:42:17 <Frostregen> plus re-adding the description
16:42:59 <Frostregen> and maybe another download-id
16:46:57 <Digitalfox_Desktop> So stations are now limited to 32.000 of cargo?
16:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> more like beyond 4k cargo you get less and less additional cargo, so it will take quite long to actually reach 32k
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17:04:26 <glx> disabled_state is a dropdown_d member
17:04:57 <glx> replace VEH_Train with VEH_TRAIN
17:06:31 <glx> it's we.click (it's an union)
17:07:58 <Chris82> ultra ultra old :D yeah
17:08:06 <Chris82> but I could update most code myself except these 5 errors
17:08:22 <Chris82> the VEH_TRAIN and disabled_state is fixed
17:08:48 <glx> disabled_state is replaced by DisableWindowWidget()
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17:09:31 <Chris82> yeah I thought so, I was using the DisableWindowWidget for another patch I did
17:10:15 <Chris82> uhh ahh what happened now lol
17:10:24 <Chris82> 3>waypoint.obj : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "unsigned int __fastcall CalcNewAverage(unsigned int,unsigned int,unsigned short)" (?CalcNewAverage@@YIIIIG@Z)
17:10:24 <Chris82> 3>waypoint.obj : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "void __fastcall ShowWaypointTrains(int,int)" (?ShowWaypointTrains@@YIXHH@Z)
17:10:24 <Chris82> 3>..\objs\Win32\Release\\openttd.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 2 unresolved externals
17:11:38 <Chris82> hmmm I just rebuilt the project and I didn't get compiler errors, weird
17:11:46 <Chris82> there should be nothing missing actually
17:13:08 <Chris82> ok these functions seem to be missing for the linker, let me check
17:13:49 <glx> if the linker doesn't find them then the files containing these functions is not in the project
17:14:30 <Chris82> yeah I just noticed this function is placed in a very unlogic location in the original patch
17:14:34 <Chris82> that's why I overlooked it
17:14:46 <Chris82> this patch is really huge and does a lot more than I just try to do
17:16:10 <peter1138> glx: or they're old functions that no longer exist...
17:16:16 <alex_> is there anyway form the serversdie to findout what passwords someone is using on their company?
17:16:27 <alex_> or how do you force remove company from the server?
17:16:39 <glx> alex_: they are stored in clear in server memory
17:17:01 <Chris82> rcon pass "reset_company playerid"
17:17:49 <Chris82> peter1138: The functions missing are from the patch, they are just placed in weird locations
17:21:19 <alex_> anyone keen on testing my new server? - moved my machines to another box need to test cpu%
17:21:19 <Chris82> I guess _player_trains_desc has been replaced by something?
17:21:28 <alex_> alexserver >> massive >> maxloan
17:22:35 <glx> what is it supposed to show?
17:22:52 <Chris82> _player_trains_desc is only used by the patch not defined, it's from r6xxx
17:23:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> Chris82: check out a version from the time of the patch, look in what file it was in, and then look what revisions changed the file
17:23:58 <Chris82> can I download r6xxx from SVN ?
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17:24:33 <Chris82> I use TortoiseSVN ;) but thx for telling me the command line way
17:24:43 <peter1138> player_trains_desc will now be bjarni's combined vehicle windows
17:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, tortoise can do that, too
17:25:25 <glx> I'd ask the patch author to update his patch if I was you :)
17:26:12 <UnderBuilder> will be nice a server where players are encouraged to create its own rail network
17:26:23 <Chris82> I think he's dead already ;)
17:26:35 <Chris82> the patch was for r1xxx originally the r6xxx was done by someone else already
17:26:41 <UnderBuilder> in standard servers they use point to point networks
17:26:48 <Chris82> and it's totally buggy in some parts that's why I only wanted to extract one part
17:26:59 <peter1138> players play however they like
17:27:09 <peter1138> i always do networks
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17:33:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10559 /trunk/src/lang/ (american.txt catalan.txt estonian.txt slovenian.txt):
17:33:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-14 19:32:31
17:33:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: american - 8 fixed by WhiteRabbit (8)
17:33:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 15 changed by arnaullv (15)
17:33:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 6 fixed by kristjans (6)
17:33:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 6 fixed by Necrolyte (6)
17:33:35 <Chris82> there's a static const WindowDesc _player_trains_desc = { in r6413 in train_gui.c
17:34:12 <Chris82> so I assume it's static const WindowDesc _train_details_desc
17:34:31 <peter1138> 18:22 <@peter1138> player_trains_desc will now be bjarni's combined vehicle windows
17:34:46 <glx> Chris82: compare the contents of the array
17:36:12 <Chris82> what are bjarni's compiled vehicle windows?
17:36:27 <peter1138> combined isn't compiled...
17:36:43 <glx> "same" code for all vehicles type
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17:40:42 <_42_> Commit by bjarni :: r6562 /trunk/ (14 files) (2006-09-28 23:05:03 UTC)
17:40:44 <_42_> -Codechange: merged the vehicle list window widget arrays
17:40:46 <_42_> It made no sense to maintain 8 nearly identically arrays when a single one can do the job
17:40:48 <_42_> Also made the two buttons always use half of the bottom width each, even when resizing
17:41:16 <glx> I think you can view the diff using tortoise
17:42:27 <Chris82> yup I can use Tortoise for that :)
17:53:06 <Chris82> lol this patch code doesn't really work
17:53:17 <Chris82> I've got a waypoint stats window there now but it doesn't count anything
17:53:48 <peter1138> well no, the function that called it doesn't exist any more
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17:55:05 <Chris82> the only thing that works is counting how many trains are scheduled for the waypoint :D
17:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> iirc there was a function for entry of tile and a function for exit of tile, but one was never used in trunk, so it got removed
17:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> but that was exactly the function used in the waypoint stats
17:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> move the counting code to the other function
17:58:39 <Chris82> but when it uses a function that's not there anymore why does it compile at all?
17:59:15 <peter1138> it adds a function which isn't called
18:01:12 <Chris82> ah forgot to call the WaypointMonthlyLoop(); function
18:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> technically, it should warn you "function xyz() is declared but never used"
18:03:36 <peter1138> only if it's static
18:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, probably it has no way of finding out otherwise...
18:06:22 <Chris82> now I call it but the stats are still now shown
18:06:29 <Chris82> except that two trains are scheduled for the waypoint
18:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> forgot adding the strings to the window?
18:23:34 <Chris82> I just remove all the stuff that I don't need
18:23:42 <Chris82> to minimize the places of possible errors
18:25:28 <sartsj> what happens if a multiheaded train breaks down?
18:25:36 <sartsj> is it possible for just 1 loco to break?
18:25:53 <sartsj> or do they always break down entirely
18:31:30 <SmatZ> the train breaks down entirely
18:31:41 <SmatZ> as more engines, as more often breakdowns
18:32:28 <peter1138> exactly the same behaviour as with just one engine
18:33:05 <Chris82> ok there's something really weird in this code
18:33:20 <Chris82> wp->months_counted = STS_NO_MONTHS_COUNTED; is done when Waypoint stats are initialized
18:33:38 <Chris82> then for the monthly loop I see if (wp->months_counted != STS_NO_MONTHS_COUNTED)
18:34:04 <Chris82> but when I initialize months_counted as STS_foo this if will return false and therefor the loop never runs
18:34:09 <Chris82> or do I get something wrong?
18:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> what i usually do at this point is inserting printf() at certain points to look what is actually called in what order
18:39:16 <Chris82> now the window refreshes and shows the number of months counted
18:39:21 <Chris82> I simply removed the if
18:39:42 <Chris82> I think I compile 6413 with the original patch and see if it actually was ever working ;)
18:41:21 <peter1138> what you probably want to do is to read the code to find out what it is doing, then rewrite it for current revisions
18:42:27 <Chris82> well I've done that with the daylength patch for example, but this patch is so unlogical in some parts that this is diffciult for me
18:43:20 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest329
18:47:12 <Chris82> I also don't get why there is a for loop to initialize stats
18:47:20 <Chris82> I mean stats are only initialized once
18:48:56 <sartsj> 08:32:28 [@peter1138] exactly the same behaviour as with just one engine
18:49:14 <sartsj> wouldnt it be logical for the train to keep moving, but more slowly if it can still carry the wagons?
18:49:38 <glx> yes but it's not that easy to do
18:49:38 <sartsj> might be a nice feature
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18:53:17 <alex_> is there anyway server side i can give a company money? :D
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19:03:10 <Chris82> does anybody know why the upload new version button has been removed from the forums?
19:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> you could try talking to orudge
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19:27:12 <Chris82> orudge told me that the button was removed in phpbb3
19:27:52 <Chris82> well I am going to buy me 3 pizzas now :) didn't have any food today yet except some friuts
19:27:52 <orudge> Chris82: basically, the attachment mod was unofficial in phpBB 2.0
19:28:02 <orudge> phpBB 3.0's attachments are largely based upon that mod
19:28:06 <orudge> but for some reason, they removed that button
19:28:08 <orudge> no idea why, personally
19:28:41 <Chris82> can't imagine why either
19:29:11 <Chris82> I mean that's a pretty big issue when it breaks all links due to changed attachment ids when adding a new version by deleting the old file and re-uploading a new file
19:29:22 <orudge> Possibly just to simplify it or something
19:29:33 <Chris82> anyway I need food now :D Pizzzzzzzaaaaaaa :D
19:29:39 *** Chris82 is now known as Chris|Pizza
19:33:46 <Hendikins> Bah @ pizza. I want kanga bangas :P
19:34:24 * Hendikins pads off to idle for another 268 hours
19:35:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> can i reroute the stdout of a running process?
19:43:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10560 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (307 files in 24 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r10027-10559
19:44:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> is that branch used for anything?
19:45:01 <TrueBrain> no, he just loves syncing
19:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> that would be 5€ into the bad jokes box :p
19:48:28 <TrueBrain> only if you put in 5 euro for stupid questions :)
19:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers :p
19:50:06 <Chris|Pizza> Hendikins: what are kanga bangas?
19:50:10 <Chris|Pizza> are you bamboocha ? lol
19:50:59 <Chris|Pizza> ahh it's perfect that supermarkets are open till 10 now :D I hope they don't undo that for winter
19:51:52 <TrueBrain> okay, Eddi|zuHause2, so let me rephrase:
19:51:54 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: are you stupid?
20:21:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10561 /trunk/src/ (blitter/factory.hpp driver.h): -Fix: don't give 'unused variable' warnings when disabling asserts
20:30:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10562 /trunk/src/ (misc/blob.hpp misc/str.hpp misc/strapi.hpp stdafx.h): -Fix: most of the MorphOS issues; MorphOS doesn't know about wchars, so disable all code that has to use wchars for MorphOS.
20:40:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10563 /trunk/Makefile.src.in: -Fix: gcc 2.95 (which is still needed for MorphOS :() does have trouble with using the protected/private variables of the enclosing class (and super classes of that enclosing class).
20:41:08 <Chris|Pizza> has IsInsideRotatedRectangle just been replaced by something?
20:42:49 <Chris|Pizza> nevermind my mistake
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21:12:50 *** Chris|Pizza is now known as Chris82
21:13:03 <Chris82> btw was there a specific reason you upgraded to phpbb3 RC ?
21:16:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10564 /branches/noai/ (6 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added a AITileList valuator that checks for a NxM buildable spot with the entry from the AITileList as top-left tile
21:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> Chris82: because he already tested previous versions and felt that this one is stable enough
21:22:40 <SmatZ> I am missing other languages than English :(
21:24:34 <peter1138> what else would you need?
21:26:50 <SmatZ> there is only the British English in the list - often translations are poor and I use English version anyway, but the Czech translation was rally nicely done in the previous version
21:27:23 <SmatZ> hmm too many typos :-x I should type anymore today :-x
21:29:30 * SmatZ remains quiet ... I would type more strange things else :-x
21:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: no language has been removed
21:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> check if you actually have the .lng files in the lang/ dir
21:33:53 <TrueBrain> I assume he was talking about the forums
21:34:45 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: I am sorry, I said it without any connection probably, I was talking about tt-forums.net ... in OTTD I use the 'Original vehicles names' language :) because I do not have Czech fonts installed (there are still problems with non-ACSII characters under Linux :-(
21:35:18 <Rubidium> SmatZ: just use one of the MS fonts
21:38:11 <SmatZ> Rubidium: what are 'MS fonts'? actually, I have never felt this as a big problem ... instead I had a big pain installing unicode support, but maybe I invested too little time into that ... funny enough, even KDE in default configuration shows '?' instead of come unicode characters
21:38:16 <Smoovious> already said i n #tycoon
21:38:24 <SmatZ> in OTTD, I like the original fonts too much :)
21:38:36 <peter1138> that is why they are default
21:38:39 <Rubidium> SmatZ: MS => Microsoft
21:38:44 <orudge> always have, since wotshisname made his set
21:40:58 * SmatZ is googling & clicking links, will reply later, thanks you for some suggestions
21:56:23 <SmatZ> Rubidium: nice it works! Thanks :)
21:56:31 <Sacro> return this.stringField.toLowerCase().toUpperCase().compareTo(that.stringField.toLowerCase().toUpperCase());
21:56:56 <SmatZ> Sacro: this is from openttd source?
21:57:10 <Sacro> SmatZ: no, but i wonder if i could sneak it in
21:57:39 <TrueBrain> let me think about it...
21:57:44 <SmatZ> well - there is something I don't understand - why there is used cost.addcost(int) used everywhere instead of operator+ overloading...
21:58:06 <TrueBrain> toLowerCase().toUpperCase()
21:58:13 <TrueBrain> is toUpperCase broken or something? :)
21:58:41 <Sacro> the only possible explanatiaon
21:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: "AddCost" has other semantics than "+"
21:58:50 <Sacro> is if you have a picture thats red with green dots
21:58:55 <Sacro> you'd make the red, green
21:58:59 <Sacro> and then the whole lot red
21:59:16 <Sacro> and that'd presumably work if it was green with red dots too
21:59:16 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: that semantics could be done in the operator+ too
21:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> because "AddCost" changes "this" instance and then returns it
21:59:49 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause2: operator overloading could still do that AFAIK
21:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, "+" intuitively means that the operands are not changed
22:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but it is not obvious to the user
22:00:10 <blathijs> But I don't think operator overloading is really useful except for really simple things
22:00:18 <Sacro> "It appears that O2's text message server – technically known as an SMSC – had managed to get itself into an infinite loop."
22:00:30 <blathijs> addcost is indeed += yes, but method calls are nice and explicit :-)
22:00:58 <TrueBrain> operator overloading makes code unclear
22:01:02 <TrueBrain> overloading in general tends to do that :)
22:01:28 <ln-> I have already suggested changing _all_ functions to overloaded operators
22:01:31 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: I didn't dig into that code, but that seems strange to me... difference is just in the limit that cannot overflow from 1<<63 to -1<<63...
22:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, operator overloading may make the code clearer if the data type is used in very complex algebraic expressions
22:02:25 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: you could use cost.operator=(cost.operator+(int)) :-)
22:03:14 <Rubidium> SmatZ: only problem is that doing that makes it impossible to check *all* instances that use the functions
22:03:41 <Rubidium> as it just "compiles", but due to the changed semantics of the function other changes are needed in the code itself
22:04:56 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
22:06:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10565 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: allow giving width, height and radius to check for cargo acceptance
22:06:59 <SmatZ> Rubidium: yes I trust you you chose the best solution, I just don't see reasons for that ... I am really not into OOP nor C++ programmer
22:07:08 <SmatZ> so I don't see problems you see :)
22:07:38 <SmatZ> so I don't understand your last 2 lines :(
22:08:14 <Rubidium> I'm not a (proper) C++ programmer either
22:10:14 <SmatZ> I was one of the few who programmed in C first at the University :)
22:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: i think what he means if you change the semantics of operator+, you cannot find all uses of that operator+ to change the code there
22:11:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> because there are a dozen other operator+ that have nothing to do with this one
22:11:48 <Rubidium> hmm, still trying to find a proper real-life example
22:12:06 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: maybe ... like cost.addcost(int).addcost(int) may be different than cost += int + int, because int + int may overflow
22:12:50 <SmatZ> and using cost.addcost will force programmers not to sum two integers
22:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> + should be left-associative
22:13:16 <SmatZ> += has lower priority than + afaik
22:13:42 <TrueBrain> else a += b - c would be messy
22:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd imagine that "a += b" gets unfold to "a = a + b"
22:14:06 <TrueBrain> hmm, bad example :p
22:14:23 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: it doesn't as it's another overloadable operator
22:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> ok, but C(++) sometimes has very strange definitions :p
22:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> i would not try to imagine what it does with "a[i++]++"
22:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> it could very easily unfold that one to "a[i++] = a[i++]+1"
22:17:46 <SmatZ> it will do that, won't ?
22:17:47 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: the person who does that should be shot on-site
22:18:10 <Rubidium> and a third time to be absolutely sure
22:18:29 <TrueBrain> of course it depends on how good your aim is
22:18:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> and that could be one of "a[i] = a[i]+1; i = i+2;", "a[i] = a[i+1]+1; i = i+2;"
22:18:40 <Sacro> SmatZ: that hurts my head
22:18:50 <Sacro> i think it increments b, adds a...
22:18:52 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: that is absolute bollocks
22:18:56 <SmatZ> a[i]++ and ++a[i] are different
22:19:09 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: I sure hope so :)
22:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> TrueBrain: why? it can move the assignment effect of "++" wherever it wants
22:19:47 <SmatZ> Sacro: well, by C standards, there is not defined behavior when more changes are done for one variable
22:19:49 <TrueBrain> pre-++ has lower precedence
22:20:12 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: a[i++]++ is equal to a[i]++; i++;
22:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> i had a friend who tried "y=log(x++)+log(x++)+log(x++)+log(x++)+log(x++)", and it resulted in "y=5*log(x); x+=5"
22:20:36 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: yes I am sorry, it is the same
22:20:43 <TrueBrain> in theory you can make it i++; a[i]++;
22:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> and he was very upset :)
22:21:08 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: the result is undefined
22:21:35 <TrueBrain> same as assuming that x = 0; f(x++; x++); is equal to f(0, 1)
22:22:00 <TrueBrain> (as in fact on all compilers I know it is f(1, 0)
22:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> but if the spec says "'a++' is synonym to 'a=a+1'" my expansion above is perfectly valid
22:22:12 <SmatZ> but ... "x++ || x++" will work, shoudn't it?
22:22:14 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: but the specs don't say that :)
22:22:53 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: adding one (specific) letter makes it behave differently ;)
22:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: no, the assignment can be moved behind the 2nd evaluation of x
22:23:05 <SmatZ> it will work only if x==-1
22:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> because there is no sequence point
22:23:43 <SmatZ> && || should hold the order, it is defined
22:24:00 <SmatZ> when something is true, anything after next || is not evaluated
22:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: order of evaluation != order of assignments
22:24:20 <Rubidium> oh, never mind... didn't think about lazy evaluation
22:24:27 <SmatZ> Rubidium: | is a normal operator :)
22:24:43 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: I am not sure at all
22:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> so if the first x evaluates to 0, it can choose to either evaluate the second x, or do the assignment "++"
22:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> depending on the order, the second x evaluates to either 0 or 1
22:26:03 <SmatZ> as our teacher said - "it is undefined, it may evaluate to 123546"
22:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> undefined != random
22:26:33 <Rubidium> "C++ is allowed to evaluate either [post] ++ first"
22:26:45 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: [00:24:08] <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: order of evaluation != order of assignments ... you are right
22:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> in general, you should never have two assignments in the same expression :)
22:28:12 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: that's for sure, but what about ... one file in ottd .. a second...
22:28:41 <Rubidium> "the order in which side effects take place is unspecified"
22:29:04 <SmatZ> once I tried " ? : " operator instead of if / else statement, but it didn't work, strange
22:30:21 <SmatZ> Rubidium: then you made it clear ... side effects = pre/post ++/-- , function calls - and something else?
22:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> not all functions have side effects
22:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> any assignment is a possible side effect
22:31:35 <Rubidium> SmatZ: overriden operators
22:32:07 <Rubidium> just read the whole piece of text
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22:35:42 <SmatZ> rail_cmd.cpp, static void DrawTrackBits(TileInfo* ti, TrackBits track)
22:35:59 <SmatZ> there is used the ordering aspect of the || operator
22:36:32 <SmatZ> Rubidium: it is a very long text :(
22:36:57 *** KUDr_afk is now known as KUDr
22:37:28 <Rubidium> nr 4 isn't that long
22:37:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10566 /trunk/src/string.cpp: -Fix [FS#1025]: a NewGRF could have a information message that is too long for the internal buffers to handle. We should not crash on such a case even though the message is too big for the window anyway.
22:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> indeed, that piece of code looks dangerous
22:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it uses the , operator
22:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> the , operator defines sequences
22:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> the , operator means "do not move assignments beyond this point"
22:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> and each of these assignments is enclosed in ,
22:42:38 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: and when calling functions, f(x++,x++), the , is a different operator... it is not operator there
22:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> but f((x++,x++)) is something different :)
22:44:16 <SmatZ> when why is there ; while , could be used instead?
22:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> because ; can not be placed inmidst of an expression
22:45:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> , is used to place sequence points in an expression
22:45:28 <SmatZ> anyway - could I write a procedure using , insteaed of ; ?
22:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, ";" sets a sequence point and ends the expression as well
22:45:55 <SmatZ> except structure and variable definitions etc
22:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> "x = a , b" is something different than "x = a ; b"
22:48:20 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: what's the difference?
22:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, in fact, the first one does "a; x=b"
22:50:22 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: i = 7, i++, i++; // `i' becomes 9
22:50:32 <SmatZ> , has lower priority than =
22:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> ermm, yes, wrong example for the right thing ;)
22:51:00 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: those are some AI controlled players?
22:51:28 <TrueBrain> 7 AI controlled players
22:51:45 <TrueBrain> no management on the lines yet
22:56:19 <SmatZ> with -O3 , both b++ and c++ is executed
22:56:58 <TrueBrain> dah, a is not defined with any value
22:57:24 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: it shouldn't change the behavior ... it either IS or IS NOT 0
22:57:39 <TrueBrain> undefined variables are both :)
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22:58:54 <Rubidium> SmatZ: ofcourse the behaviour is strange, the side effects are certain after the complete expression (aren't they?)
23:00:02 <SmatZ> Rubidium: as Eddi|zuHause2 stated, ',' is serializing operator - else static void DrawTrackBits(TileInfo* ti, TrackBits track) is rail_cmd.cpp wouldn't work
23:01:35 *** Eddi|zuHause3 has joined #openttd
23:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> what does that have to do with each other?
23:01:51 <Rubidium> and as you just said, || doesn't continue evaluating when it's true, so I guess it's easiest to perform the side effects before the jump
23:02:45 <SmatZ> Rubidium: the behavior is the same when using ';' instead of ','
23:03:25 <TrueBrain> haha, the difference between 'low' town and 'high' town is amazing :)
23:04:52 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: that's better :)
23:05:07 <TrueBrain> the first was already really good
23:05:14 <TrueBrain> knowing there is just 1 airplane serving the station
23:05:16 <SmatZ> this is even better! :)
23:09:28 <SmatZ> ok I just found all of this interesting - I hope you did too, and if you didn't I am sorry for bothering you, I do not have anyone alse to talk about it with :(
23:10:28 <TrueBrain> haha, I am sure we all enjoyed it as much as you did, only most of us won't admit that ;)
23:10:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10567 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Add [FS#915]: a "group" with ungrouped vehicles. Patch by Matthias Wolf.
23:11:13 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: thank you :)
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23:35:07 <TrueBrain> now it manages routes :)
23:35:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10568 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_road.cpp ai_road.hpp ai_road.hpp.sq):
23:35:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: {Build|Remove}RoadFull(). These functions have the same behaviour
23:35:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: as {Build|Remove}Road(), except road is built/removed on both halves of ending
23:35:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tiles (ie build a sloped road on sloped tile instead half road with fundations)
23:36:23 <TrueBrain> I should delay the process a bit more, as now it is very unfair :)
23:36:38 <TrueBrain> building 24 good stations in 1 year isn't realistic ;)
23:38:01 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: does the AI beat you in the game?
23:38:35 <TrueBrain> nah, dunno what would happen if I really tried..
23:38:48 <SmatZ> I think you sisn't play :)
23:39:05 <TrueBrain> exactly, pink clearly is a flat line
23:39:14 <TrueBrain> but I wonder what would happen if I tried to beat it..
23:39:23 <TrueBrain> doubt I can make that much money in such a short time
23:39:45 <TrueBrain> ah, there was a (big) bug in my maintain Route function
23:39:57 <glx> you should try road and aircraft at the same time
23:40:35 <glx> but your road AI can make towns grow
23:41:39 <glx> what happened to the others?
23:41:48 <TrueBrain> they never really took off
23:41:56 <TrueBrain> is because they all walk the same towns in the same order
23:42:01 <TrueBrain> I need to randomize that..
23:43:17 <SmatZ> it would be nice to play with really competitive AI ... I think I read somewhere that AI was added in the TTO in the last moment... so it was never really clever
23:43:58 <TrueBrain> it still is an amazing job!
23:44:07 <TrueBrain> that rail road CAN be made, amazing
23:45:05 <glx> I like how original AI uses bridges :)
23:46:55 <SmatZ> like wooden bridges 30 tiles long in one way, and immediatelly returning in opposite direction?
23:47:28 <TrueBrain> I like the fact he had to make terraforming for free :p
23:48:19 <SmatZ> he would bankrupt when trying to build first road over some hill instead...
23:48:49 <TrueBrain> but I really mean it: the old AI is REALLY impressive, I wish I could do it like that...
23:49:54 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: do you mean TTO or TTD? is AI somehow damaged in OTTD, even with patches turned off?
23:49:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10569 /branches/noai/ (13 files in 5 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIListRandomize as Valuator for all lists to attach a random value to all items
23:50:15 <TrueBrain> I mean original TT, I think TTD
23:51:01 <SmatZ> I hope I find TTO and test it :)
23:51:12 <SmatZ> without FF button it will take ages :(
23:52:32 <SmatZ> TTO was nice ... except some bug, once all vehicles begun entering depots very often - I don't remember the details, but I had to remove all depots all over the map
23:54:08 <TrueBrain> okay, my AIs now don't follow eachother
23:54:11 <TrueBrain> but take more random stations
23:54:16 <TrueBrain> see if that changes the outcome :)
23:54:35 <TrueBrain> of course this makes the AIs worse
23:54:49 <TrueBrain> but... we are not looking for unbeatable AIs :) More fair AIs that are fun to play with :)
23:55:36 <SmatZ> actually, I don't believe AI can be made to beat any average human player
23:55:49 <TrueBrain> I think I can give you one that you can't beat :)
23:55:56 <TrueBrain> but that is more because of the speed it will build :)
23:57:07 <SmatZ> maybe ... while playing singleplayer, I press the F1 button everytime I do not not time to flow :)
23:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> i spend 98% of my play time in pause :)
23:57:47 <SmatZ> but even without that - if it beats me without pausing, it is a !great! IA
23:57:56 <TrueBrain> no, just an unfair :)
23:57:56 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: same me :)
23:58:00 <TrueBrain> I can make it work on such speed
23:58:06 <TrueBrain> that it builds 1 route every day
23:58:16 <SmatZ> you can make it unlimited money ^_^
23:59:07 <SmatZ> I would like to have some speed from my computer, not 99,99% spent in AI_RunGameLoop() :-D
continue to next day ⏵
