IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-07-01
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08:13:14 <stillunknown> Anyone know good reading material on performance optimisation?
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08:14:46 * toresbe checked out of SVN, heh.
08:15:06 <hylje> soooo you are a code object?
08:15:28 <toresbe> No, I just checked OpenTTD out of SVN to try that build. It went kaboom.
08:15:33 <toresbe> openttd: /home/toresbe/ottd-svn/trunk/src/player.h:241: Player* GetPlayer(PlayerID): Assertion `( (uint)((i) - (PLAYER_FIRST)) < ((uint)((sizeof(_players)/sizeof(_players[0])))) )' failed.
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08:16:01 <hylje> that looks like a legitimate error
08:16:21 <toresbe> Well, it's from SVN. It's trivially reproducible. Scenario editor > load scenario :)
08:16:58 <hylje> id believe r10210 broke it
08:17:17 <hylje> with that type changing
08:17:35 <toresbe> also, the pixmaps are on crack - where there should be arrows, there are now flags
08:18:55 <toresbe> If I can be of any help, let me know. I have marginal competence in C++, but I should have nothing but time today, so...
08:19:26 <hylje> you can help by tracking down which revision broke it
08:22:33 <Alanin> being back in few minutes
08:29:24 <toresbe> hylje: OK, noted, thanks. I'll do that in the future.
08:30:35 <toresbe> Hrm. A weird problem, this time with the 0.5.2 release. When I use the UK NewGRF, I get new locomotives for maglev.. but that's all I get. No cars, no nothin'.
08:31:16 <hylje> ukrs maglevs come in whole vehicles
08:31:42 <toresbe> In whole vehicles? I see...
08:32:13 <caladan> so you dont get coal train traveling at 500km/h
08:32:56 <peter1138> toresbe: yeah, you buy the engine and the wagons come with it
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08:34:08 <toresbe> Gack. They're only 10 long.
08:34:17 <toresbe> I'll have to buy a bunch of them to push my kind of traffic...
08:34:38 <stillunknown> I wish the map array had space to store information about the shape of tiles.
08:34:40 <caladan> then use monorails :-)
08:34:53 <peter1138> stillunknown: shape? they're all square...
08:35:05 <hylje> toresbe: well you do have to buy a lot of wagons for that kind of traffic anyway
08:35:11 <stillunknown> I mean if it's flat, max_height and min_height.
08:35:19 <hylje> toresbe: and you can chain those things as if those were wagons
08:37:24 <stillunknown> Or at least if it's flat tile, which cover a lot of situations.
08:39:28 <toresbe> Hrm. Does it only carry goods?
08:39:35 <toresbe> Or can I somehow change that to, say, wood?
08:39:53 <stillunknown> You're not supposed to use maglev's for cargo.
08:40:23 <toresbe> It says "refittable" but I'm not quite sure how one goes about doing that.
08:40:56 <hylje> you can refit it to goods and foods
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09:01:50 <eekee> stillunknown: why that restriction?
09:02:20 <hylje> because it doesnt make sense really
09:02:49 <hylje> maglev relies on the fact stuff doesnt hit the bottom
09:03:06 <eekee> give me a sec, looking up the Japanese maglev test track site
09:03:11 <hylje> ukrs is a realistic set
09:03:23 <hylje> the default grf allow you to haul bugger all on whatever
09:03:44 <toresbe> "bugger all" is a colloquialism for "nothing"
09:08:27 <stillunknown> But only insane people transfer bulk goods by maglev.
09:08:40 <toresbe> in-game as well? Why is this?
09:09:00 <Gekkko`> stillunknown: you mocking me again?
09:09:04 <Gekkko`> My entire network is maglev.
09:09:13 <eekee> no, only insane people deny facts of mag-lev capacity because "mag-lev is special" >:D
09:09:39 <Gekkko`> you're saying that it wouldnt hold that many goods
09:09:45 <Gekkko`> because the magnets wouldnt hold the tonnes?
09:10:53 <stillunknown> By bulk goods i mean coal, oil, etc.
09:11:13 <stillunknown> Not the goods called goods.
09:11:22 <Gekkko`> I come in half way through teh argument
09:11:28 <eekee> well an open waggon is pretty stupid, yeah...
09:11:36 <Gekkko`> you're saying that its insane because it's physically impossible/
09:12:21 <stillunknown> Just impractical.
09:12:39 <stillunknown> Just like carrying coal with an airplane.
09:14:27 <eekee> airplanes are much smaller capacity
09:15:01 <stillunknown> But for maglev you'd have to put the coal into containers.
09:15:21 <stillunknown> Or something like that, also coal benefits from >200 kph travel speeds.
09:15:28 <stillunknown> *benefits little
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09:19:19 <eekee> just need a lid on the existing containers
09:21:42 <eekee> mew, I was wrong about the tonnage, in a way. Current maglev cars can weigh 40 tonnes empty, allowing (I think) 28 tonnes of capacity, but "experts are confidant that this will improve"
09:22:20 <hylje> so first cargo maglevs should show up in 2020?
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09:30:30 <stillunknown> Were can i find the DoCommand function?
09:30:39 <stillunknown> (it doesn't seem to be in any header file)
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09:55:03 <Thomas[NL]> any progress on brickland?
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10:11:05 <Chris82> can somebody check the following savegame:
10:11:23 <Chris82> it keeps crashing after a little while, when you click windows it crashes quicker than when you do nothing
10:11:51 <Chris82> I have no idea :p that's why I asked if somebody can check it out
10:12:40 <Chris82> I have 37 billion in that game and world population is 14,6 mio so it's pretty massive
10:30:33 <SmatZ> Chris82: I get SIGFPE , will test with debugging enabled
10:34:08 <SmatZ> Program received signal SIGFPE, Arithmetic exception.
10:34:08 <SmatZ> [Switching to Thread 46971218706544 (LWP 6362)]
10:34:08 <SmatZ> 0x000000000042d278 in CargoList::InvalidateCache (this=0x11e3438) at /mnt/svn/openttd/trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp:355
10:34:25 <SmatZ> days_in_transit = dit / count;
10:34:37 <SmatZ> ^^^ there is the problem
10:36:23 <peter1138> hmm, that shouldn't happen
10:38:52 <Chris82> and the savegame is from Trunk r10387 without patches
10:39:12 <peter1138> clearly, but it shouldn't :)
10:39:38 <Chris82> I first thought these late game crashes were caused by some patch in ChrisIN, but as this test has shown the problem occurs in Trunk games as well
10:43:00 <Chris82> btw... shouldn't 0 / 0 work in some cases?
10:43:15 <SmatZ> happens for station at xy=173859, x=803, y= 169
10:43:18 <Chris82> I thought division by 0 is only illegal when you divide something != 0 by 0
10:43:34 <Chris82> is that an AI station or one of my own?
10:43:44 <stillunknown> Does the new hashmap store subtiles when on a 64x64 map?
10:44:03 <Prof_Frink> Chris82: And what value should 0/0 give?
10:44:35 <stillunknown> So updating the hashmap when entering a new tile should be ok?
10:44:36 <Chris82> well that's what our math prof said :(
10:45:11 <Chris82> gtk so division by 0 is an exception in every case
10:46:52 <SmatZ> peter1138: count overflows 65535 -> 0
10:47:07 <SmatZ> Drunningworth falls' passangers, there are too many
10:47:59 <peter1138> to the first question :)
10:48:05 <peter1138> so yes to the second
10:48:13 <SmatZ> peter1138: there are about 65532 passangers and then the game crashes, so most likely overflow and then division by 0
10:48:44 <peter1138> hmm, count is 32 bit
10:49:33 <Chris82> there are really that many passengers lol
10:49:47 <Chris82> I thought there can't be more than 4095 at one station
10:49:47 <SmatZ> uint16 count; ///< The amount of cargo in this packet
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10:50:43 <peter1138> then either it needs to be uint32, or just split it into 2 packets. hmm.
10:51:08 <Chris82> yeah that station is the problem I just had the station open and when it hit 65532 fatal application failure
10:54:31 <peter1138> cargopacket.cpp:231
10:54:35 <peter1138> - if ((*it)->SameSource(cp)) {
10:54:35 <peter1138> + if ((*it)->SameSource(cp) && (*it)->count + cp->count <= 65535) {
10:54:57 <peter1138> (mmm, magic numbers)
10:55:18 <SmatZ> well, count+count will everytime <= 65535, I think
10:55:32 <peter1138> should be promoted to int
10:55:56 <peter1138> might need to force it i guess
10:56:17 * toresbe has a problem with openttd (this time it's rail infrastructure ;)
10:56:34 <toresbe> I have a problem with that there are too many trains pulling out of a very busy traffic artery.
10:56:39 <SmatZ> (*it)->count + cp->count <= (*it)->count would be enough :)
10:57:37 <SmatZ> because sum of two numbers cannot be lower than any of them
10:57:49 <SmatZ> but promoting them to int would be faster... so why not :)
10:59:01 <SmatZ> peter1138: or you may limit the number of units in one packets to 32767
10:59:05 <peter1138> damn that game is slow :p
11:01:20 <eekee> toresbe: ehhh.. get inventive with junctions? That can be quite a puzzle ^_^'
11:03:01 <Chris82> my save is slow? Yeah it runs with "normal speed" when I hit fw :D
11:03:14 <Chris82> i.e. I don't see a difference between fw and normal speed
11:03:48 <Chris82> I think I will put limit town growth in the next IN, these 100k cities don't make sense :D
11:04:23 <stillunknown> Chris82: You probably have a faster computer than peter1138.
11:04:25 <Chris82> well you can never handle the amount of passengers/mail that city produces
11:05:17 <Chris82> and it's really hard to build any industry railways when the map is full of cities
11:05:55 <Chris82> ah but I just remember I have set 1 in 1 towns become cities
11:05:59 <eekee> I'm always wanting ttd to be harder
11:06:17 <Chris82> what happens actually when I set this to 1 in 2 ? I mean what is defined as a town, and what a city
11:07:11 <peter1138> i'm guessing my pc doesn't like the 1,665 road vehicles
11:07:21 <eekee> crap, ottd forces it's window size after the window manager tells the new window what to use. That means it's a pain with tiling window managers, and I'm making a new tiling WM which hasn't yet got a facility for forcing windows to size.
11:07:45 <eekee> (might be an SDL thing)
11:08:08 <peter1138> yet another tiling wm? :)
11:08:44 <SmatZ> peter1138: FindRoadVehToOvertake is still using the old hash table
11:08:50 <eekee> peter1138: I only ever found one sane one, & that now has a wierd license (ion)
11:09:59 <peter1138> SmatZ: hmm, no it's not, but it is only 'scanning' one tile.
11:10:24 <eekee> well, sane ~= intuitive, to me, plus I didn't like wmii's rotation of windows
11:11:06 <Chris82> }; < does such a semicolon make sense in any situation?
11:11:36 <peter1138> end of a struct/class
11:11:39 <SmatZ> peter1138: you are right, it is not
11:13:53 <peter1138> looks like it 'manually' scans two tiles anyway
11:19:03 <stillunknown> peter1138: That is needed, otherwise vehicles may stall behind another.
11:19:31 <stillunknown> It was added at the same time the new hashmap was added.
11:20:55 <stillunknown> looks like it 'manually' scans two tiles anyway
11:20:56 <peter1138> r3510 is a little bit before the new hashmap
11:21:25 <stillunknown> I remember making that change locally not so long ago.
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11:48:30 <Chris82> if (ret.GetCost() == 0)
11:48:42 <Chris82> it is used for the Signal auto complete
11:49:10 <Chris82> and I have a problem with it... when I have like 2000 money left and auto completion would cost 60k it also builds all signals and subtracts 60k
11:49:17 <Chris82> although it should only build signals for max. 2k
11:51:02 <eekee> shouldn't it refuse to build any signals & pop up one of those red boxes?
11:51:32 <Chris82> well either that or build as many possible
11:51:45 <Chris82> but it builds all and subtracts more money than I have as a result
11:51:55 <Chris82> so the error checking if there's enough money is not working
11:53:20 <eekee> if (ret.GetCost() == 0) <== that's your test line?
11:54:44 <Chris82> in this part of code the error must be
11:55:04 <eekee> I would have thought it should be: if (ret.GetCost() < 0)
11:57:32 <Chris82> uhm < sounds more logical yeah I'll test it :D
11:58:26 <eekee> that's the cost, not the cast there would be after the operation
11:59:00 <eekee> might be correct to leave that alone and add some code to check if the player can afford it
12:00:45 <Chris82> changing it from == to < didn't change anything at all anyway
12:01:52 <eekee> not so strange. Cloning trains was implemented without any check for cash available, at first
12:02:41 <eekee> I think the if (ret.GetCost() == 0)
12:03:16 <eekee> er, I think that line is there for when there isn't enough length for any more signals
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12:19:05 <peter1138> Druningworth Falls: 65,550 passengers
12:20:09 <WuZuul> Anyone else had any problems with bridges with the latest ottd?
12:20:17 <Chris82> peter1138: Did you fix it? :D
12:20:37 <Chris82> WuZuul: Except for many clipping errors no.
12:20:47 <peter1138> though it's clearly a bug that it has so many passengers
12:21:15 <WuZuul> Chris82, when I build a bridge over water, the trains wont go over it.. They jsut turn around like there wouldn't be any track
12:21:16 <Chris82> Yeah I thought so too, I was thinking there is a fix limit at 4095
12:21:27 <WuZuul> And if I builda a bridge accross another railway, the trais still crash :D
12:21:34 <peter1138> but those stations have a rating of around 30%
12:21:36 <Chris82> electriefied trains and the bridge is normal rail?
12:21:47 <WuZuul> Steam trains and any bridge
12:22:00 <peter1138> 0.5.3RC1 is broken, yes
12:22:10 <WuZuul> Thought something like that
12:22:16 <WuZuul> So guess I will revert to the older one then
12:24:03 <Chris82> what might cause this bug that there are so many passengers?
12:24:21 <Chris82> I obviously had it in a few games already, because this is not the first game crashing this way
12:24:45 <Chris82> maybe a bug specific to AI stations?
12:25:19 <peter1138> possible, they do get strange bonuses...
12:25:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10404 /trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp: -Fix (r10266): Adding a cargo packet to cargo list could overflow. Now we detect this and just leave the cargo in its own packet.
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12:26:30 <peter1138> hmm, my rubadub is ginormous
12:27:53 <Chris82> errrrm there is a bad bug in r10403/4
12:28:04 <Chris82> it's disabled in the GUI
12:28:13 <Chris82> no matter if I enable/disable it in patch options
12:29:17 <Chris82> uhm when can you build erail?
12:29:30 <Chris82> oh lol I had DB Set XL disabled :D
12:29:34 <peter1138> when erail engines are available
12:29:37 <Chris82> I am not used to no erail available in 1950 lol
12:30:47 <Gekko[PDA]> arctic has no erail
12:32:07 <Chris82> :'( grrr I don't get this auto signal bug fixed
12:32:20 <Chris82> it's obviously more complicated than fixing diagonal levelling
12:33:09 <Gekko[PDA]> make it find banko - cost
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12:36:24 <stillunknown> peter1138: Do you have any idea why some savegames do trigger CheckSaveameVersion() and why some don't?
12:36:52 <glx> because they don't have the same version
12:37:42 <stillunknown> I just added a new version, 70, so no existing savegame should have that?
12:38:08 <peter1138> mmm, fresh spring onions
12:39:41 <Gekko[PDA]> put the,m in a dip
12:40:07 <peter1138> lovely yummy spring onions
12:40:40 <Gekko[PDA]> i eat white onion like an apple
12:41:01 <Gekko[PDA]> tried to eat a clove of garlic once
12:41:16 <peter1138> fresh garlic is nice but a little bit too strong
12:41:21 <Gekko[PDA]> i was licking the roof of bmy mouth for 6 hours
12:48:41 <stillunknown> peter1138: any idea what in savegame version 42 could cause the function to return?
12:48:56 <stillunknown> (with opntitle.dat)
12:50:07 <stillunknown> function = AfterLoadGame()
12:50:41 <stillunknown> Since i see not returns.
12:52:05 <Chris82> what is the variable for the money that's available to me?
12:54:41 <glx> GetPlayer(_local_player)->player_ money or GetPlayer(_current_player)->player_money
12:57:13 <stillunknown> I found it myself, my problem.
13:00:31 <Gekko[PDA]> obviously they can.
13:00:52 <Gekko[PDA]> irssi would have to get 10k a week.
13:01:52 <hylje> most of the irssi downloads are downstream
13:04:18 * eekee wonders what xchat & pidgin (formerly gaim) get
13:05:22 <eekee> my friend swears by xchat, but I've tried it &.. meh.
13:06:09 <eekee> I've been using gaim, but it's teh freakahzoidal with a barebones window manager and I'm currently making a window manager, so it's back to irssi
13:09:40 <eekee> hylje: if you're using a bare-bones window manager, yeah
13:10:43 <eekee> actually most gtk apps seem to be dumping their transient windows in odd places with my wm, so I guess I'll have to fix something there. Probably need to be more evil about controling the windows
13:30:40 <stillunknown> peter1138: are you around for a question (no bugs or anything like that ;-) )?
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14:51:28 <UnderBuilder> I was playing on a server when a player named jasperwillem entered
14:51:54 <UnderBuilder> fortunately it is other jasper as it seems, because he is building railways
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14:57:22 <UnderBuilder> also a suggestion: is inside the plans of economy balancing adding mantenaince costs to purchased land?
14:57:34 <UnderBuilder> suggestion->question
15:21:16 <kaan> UnderBuilder: look in the pdf for that, its all there
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15:54:56 <prottt> i have a little problem with bridges
15:55:10 <prottt> the trains fall through them
15:56:06 <hylje> we have a physics engine?
15:56:23 <prottt> so i cant make bridges over water and on land it must have railway under it
15:56:48 <prottt> i added some newgrf stuff
15:57:13 <prottt> but when i remove them then its not helping
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15:59:41 <colle> known problem in 0.5.3-rc1 I think
15:59:52 <colle> read something about it in the forums
16:11:16 <peter1138> ^ struck by 0.5.3-rc1
16:13:35 <kaan> I was wondering if it is wasted work i did on autoslopes
16:13:56 <kaan> will it get considered for trunk if whipped into shape?
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16:39:08 <Kosma> a quick question: is it possible to use multiplayer without UDP?
16:39:31 <hylje> you need udp to detect servers
16:39:40 <hylje> if you add servers manually, you might not need it
16:39:58 <caladan> it just says the server is offline
16:40:14 <caladan> so maybe there's some workaround...
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16:48:25 <peter1138> try "connect ip" from the console
16:49:26 <Kosma> network game connection lost
16:53:15 <caladan> hmm, it seems to work
16:53:28 <caladan> i already given up and shut down server, but now it works with connect
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17:11:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10405 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#972]: do not try to determine the default railtype in the scenario editor.
17:13:15 <kaan> so noone can answer my question above?
17:17:21 <hylje> i think if you bring the patch to coding standards and poke the devs enough
17:18:40 <Rubidium> the real question is whether the design of that autoslope patch is/was sound
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17:19:51 <Rubidium> I haven't looked thoroughly at the patch at all
17:20:47 <kaan> ok, thanks for the answer :)
17:21:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10406 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#968]: only industries in the temperate climate should be affected by the "do not increase production" flag.
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18:09:35 <toresbe> OK, SVN's stopped crashing. :)
18:09:44 <toresbe> Wow. the SVN version is even more awesome.
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18:13:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10407 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
18:13:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-01 20:12:34
18:13:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 fixed by tucalipe (2)
18:13:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 fixed by arnaullv (2)
18:13:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 fixed by miham (2)
18:13:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
18:13:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: japanese - 4 fixed by ickoonite (4)
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18:52:06 <Wolf01> -Fix (r10266): Adding a cargo packet to cargo list could overflow. Now we detect this and just leave the cargo in its own packet.
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18:53:45 <glx> you get 2 packets if it overflows
18:53:49 <Rubidium> that coalescencing algorithm doesn't merge two cargopackets when they would overflow the "count" variable in the cargo packet
18:54:44 <Wolf01> thanks glx :) (sorry Rubidium, too complex yours :P)
18:55:13 <Rubidium> I'm trying to increase your vocabulary ;)
18:55:27 <Wolf01> yeah i really need it :D
18:56:11 <Wolf01> i think coale..whatisit mean really old, isn't it?
18:58:41 <Wolf01> aaah, i read coal and i associated with coal age :P
19:01:07 <Wolf01> back to work, i made a new preview of my brickland tiles, now i have 3 of 4 stages of the bulldozed land
19:05:01 <peter1138> Rubidium: it was either that or make the count uint32
19:05:06 <peter1138> which seemed silly to me
19:12:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10408 /trunk/src/ (16 files): -Codechange: make GetImage a class method of Vehicle instead of Get(Aircraft|RoadVeh|Ship|Train)Image.
19:14:04 * stillunknown smells local copy conflicts coming soon
19:14:53 <Rubidium> with a little luck it will merge nicely
19:15:49 <stillunknown> I've overhauled a lot of the vehicle handling stuff, so i will have to do some stuff manually i think.
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19:25:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10409 /trunk/src/ (11 files): -Codechange: replace (Aircraft|RoadVeh|Ship|Train)_Tick with a Tick method in the Vehicle class.
19:25:57 <stillunknown> Is it possible to skip a revision altogether, aka reverse patch it?
19:26:58 <Sacro|Laptop> stillunknown: what do you mean?
19:28:15 <stillunknown> I have a class based vehicle tick implemented in my local copy.
19:28:27 <stillunknown> I have no use for another one.
19:29:48 <stillunknown> Does svn have a facility for this, since that would be preferred.
19:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> svn diff > tmpfile && svn revert -r . && svn up && svn diff -r HEAD:PREV > tmpfile2 && patch -p0 < tmpfile2 && patch -p0 < tmpfile
19:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> you might have to switch HEAD and PREV
19:33:22 <peter1138> or just work your patch around trunk :p
19:34:59 <stillunknown> peter1138: not very usefull, since my level of integration is much greater
19:35:09 <stillunknown> This looks like one of my first steps.
19:36:07 <stillunknown> I'm currently performance optimizing my train controller.
19:36:29 <stillunknown> So nobody write a new train controller ;-)
19:36:44 * Smoovious starts working on his controller as ordered
19:37:01 <stillunknown> Not that happens often, since it's not easy.
19:37:23 <peter1138> i've probably got several uncommitted controllers, knowing me
19:38:59 <stillunknown> I'm having decent results.
19:39:24 <stillunknown> Although they vary, on some games i can get a cpu reduction of 50%.
19:39:43 <stillunknown> But i have this game called the SML testcase, which has 1000 maglev trains.
19:39:57 <stillunknown> And i only recently managed to shave a few perfect of that.
19:40:06 <peter1138> i now have a test game with 440 trains
19:40:11 <peter1138> and 1550 road vehicles
19:41:21 <stillunknown> Although to remove a bottleneck i did have to cache some data.
19:42:04 <stillunknown> In the map, so at the end, we'll have to have a long talk about what and how to do.
19:42:12 <stillunknown> Because the patch is huge (>100 KiB)
19:42:25 <stillunknown> But i'm not done optimizing just yet.
19:44:58 <peter1138> yeah, my bridges-over-diagonal-rail patch was huge
19:45:45 <Smoovious> mikk36: hahaha... that's just perfect. :D
19:46:32 <mikk36> i dno,haven't noticed here
19:47:42 <Smoovious> people's kids are pretty huge monsters, with parents deluded with the 'not MY kid' syndrome which lets them get away with everything, and they aren't going to do shit about it...
19:47:48 <Smoovious> serves her right...
19:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> must be american kids...
19:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> or with "alternative" upbringing methods
19:48:17 <Smoovious> what's she gonna say... he forced his leg into her kids mouth and made the kid bite down?!
19:49:10 <Smoovious> the 'alternative' methods are actually better... at least there is a method... these problem kids are raised with the 'I don't give a fuck' method
19:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> honestly, i have never seen that kind of kids
19:50:07 <Smoovious> yeah, well, unfortunately, the way things are going to make corporal punishment akin to child abuse, it is only gonna get worse
19:51:17 <Smoovious> a kid is out of control, and her mother puts the kid over her lap and spanks him there on the spot, and the next thing she knows, she's spending a couple years defending herself t hrough t he c ourts for child abuse allegations and child services gets involved and everything else
19:51:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
19:51:26 <Smoovious> they've SOOO lost touch with reason
19:51:43 <peter1138> oh yes, smacking is now taboo isn't it?
19:52:26 <Smoovious> hey, when I was in school, I got paddled by the principal a few times... which I deserved... didn't scar me for life...
19:52:59 <mikk36> paddled by the principal o.O
19:53:02 <Smoovious> but in the past generation, it seems people's backbones has been weeded out of the genetic pool...
19:53:22 <Smoovious> remember that story in the news about this one teen who was going to get caned in a different country?
19:54:40 <Smoovious> like... hell, he could have gone to jail... he could h ave got a h arsher punishment, but all he was gonna get was a caning and be done with it right then and there... but no... it got dragged out and dragged out and dragged out as t he parents thought it to be too harsh
19:55:06 <Smoovious> maybe if they had given their kid a spanking or two growing up, the kid wouldn't have been caned then
19:55:48 * toresbe rolls his eyes at Smoovious' cluelessness
19:56:07 <toresbe> stillunknown: they beat you with a cane.
19:56:19 <toresbe> The Singaporean style leaves you with fairly obvious scars.
19:56:21 <Smoovious> being smacked on the ass with a cane... same as paddling, but with a cane
19:58:01 <stillunknown> A walking stick.
19:58:24 <Prof_Frink> I dunno, kids these days
19:58:25 <Smoovious> generally, thinner than a walking cane, for punishment purposes
19:58:47 <toresbe> If you're going to stray off topic, can you please not be this militantly clueless?
19:59:03 <mikk36> i haven't got beaten with a cane
19:59:27 <Smoovious> the whole point of punishment is to have a consequence the kid doesn't want to get... and a 'time out' just doesn't cut it
19:59:37 <Smoovious> nothing militant about it
19:59:45 <Smoovious> and I'd say you're the clueless
19:59:47 <toresbe> no, the point of punishment is to prevent the kid from doing it again
19:59:52 <Smoovious> have you ever even caned someone? I have...
20:00:18 <mikk36> toresbe, the point is to make the kid scared of getting punished
20:00:19 <toresbe> Smoovious: Not like the Singaporean do it. It is after all a rather serious punishment there, that should tell you something.
20:00:24 <toresbe> mikk36: No, it isn't.
20:00:30 <mikk36> so that he drops the idea of making stupid things
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20:00:49 <toresbe> ah, christ. I can't deal with this kind of cluelessness.
20:00:52 <Smoovious> mikk36... I've had the hand-spank, paddles, belts... and I deserved every one of em
20:01:31 <Smoovious> toresbe... if the point of punishment isn't to have someone be scared of being punished, then you tell us... what is the point?
20:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> you should not have that kind of discussion here...
20:02:00 <mikk36> Eddi|zuHause3, because there are kids here ? :)
20:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, because it is off topic
20:02:28 <mikk36> this is the current topic :P
20:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> and you are going nowhere
20:03:08 <mikk36> to relax our minds from openttd :P
20:03:14 <Smoovious> give us an ottd topic, and we'll be happy to immediately switch back
20:03:16 <toresbe> Smoovious: The fear of punishment works very poorly as an incentive not to do stupid things.
20:03:26 <mikk36> well, it worked for me
20:03:30 <Smoovious> toresbe... now who's clueless... .. .
20:03:50 <Smoovious> where do you think that 'fear' comes from... a 'time-out'?!
20:03:57 <toresbe> Smoovious: I can back this up with statistics. Can you?
20:04:02 <mikk36> toresbe, what is the reason for not robbing the bank for you ?
20:04:11 <toresbe> mikk36: Because I have a sense of decency.
20:04:16 <Smoovious> oh yeah... statistics...
20:04:39 <Smoovious> reason trumps statistics any day
20:04:52 <mikk36> and what makes robbing a bank a not decent action ?
20:05:02 <toresbe> Smoovious: Congratulations, you've just invoked reason and discarded it in the same sentence.
20:05:11 <toresbe> mikk36: the fact that the money doesn't belong to me.
20:05:14 <Smoovious> statistics != reason
20:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> toresbe: so it would be ok to rob a bank where you have stored money?
20:05:49 <toresbe> Eddi|zuHause3: If I only robbed them of my money, sure.
20:05:59 <toresbe> But then they call it a "withdrawal" here... :)
20:06:05 <Smoovious> toresbe... that's just stupid
20:06:06 <mikk36> not the fact that you'll be trialed for doing the robbery ?
20:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, try telling that to the judge :p
20:06:19 <toresbe> I was kidding, sheesh
20:06:22 <toresbe> mikk36: of course not
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20:06:56 <mikk36> another thing, do you sometimes drive faster than the limit ?
20:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, i mean "robbing" in the sense of going in there and shouting "this is a robbery, i want xxx Money in this bag"
20:07:11 <mikk36> but if you'd be in a hurry, would you ?
20:07:14 <toresbe> Eddi|zuHause3: Yeah, I know, I was kidding. No, of course not.
20:07:28 <mikk36> i mean, if there'd be no limit, would you drive faster than you'd do now ?
20:07:32 <toresbe> mikk36: If I had a pregnant woman in the back seat and conditions allowed for it, then of course.
20:08:00 <mikk36> so you drive by the limit because you'd be punished :)
20:08:08 <mikk36> and you don't want to be punished :)
20:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> i always drive 10km/h over the limit (20km/h outside towns)
20:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's usually the range where they do not punish
20:08:37 <toresbe> I drive by the limit because I realize that the traffic rules are there for a reason.
20:08:59 <Smoovious> you sound like a very boring person to be around
20:09:02 <toresbe> If conditions are excellent sure I'd go 10 km/h over, but that's excusable.
20:09:14 <mikk36> toresbe, by the book, it isn't
20:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> i drive like that because if you drove as the limit says, you stall the other traffic
20:09:25 <Smoovious> it isn't excusable... traffic rules are there for a reason
20:09:31 <mikk36> and if you happen to catch a very arrogant police officer, you'll get fined too
20:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> and the traffic rules say you should not stall unnecessarily
20:09:48 <toresbe> mikk36: sure. Then I'd pay the fine.
20:09:54 <toresbe> Eddi|zuHause3: exactly
20:10:02 <mikk36> because it isn't very high, right ?
20:10:10 <toresbe> mikk36: it's extraordinarily high.
20:10:17 <toresbe> Something like 600 dollars.
20:10:28 <toresbe> that's where it *starts*.
20:10:40 <Smoovious> 600 dollars... as punishments go, that's slap-on-the-wrist territory
20:10:42 <toresbe> +10 in inexcusable conditions
20:11:01 <toresbe> +10 on a dry interstate is no problem
20:11:09 <toresbe> but this is way way besides the point
20:11:09 * mikk36 thinks he's lucky that he lives in estonia
20:11:17 <mikk36> toresbe, where to do you live ?
20:11:45 <toresbe> My point is that trusting someone not do do something usually works a damn sight better than threatening him/her not to.
20:11:56 <Smoovious> yeah, my thoughts too, mikk36
20:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> the worst i got fined was for +41km/h, 100€, 4 points (which accumulate, if you get too many (like 18 or so), you loose your license, they get invalidated after 2 years of no other occurences) and 1 month temporary loss of license
20:12:17 <toresbe> Eddi|zuHause3: Let me guess, you're in Germany? :)
20:12:22 <mikk36> here i had to pay ~150 for speeding +39 (just a small acceleration for 300 meters)
20:12:23 <Smoovious> toresbe... you're so clueless...
20:12:46 <peter1138> now that statement is laughable
20:13:06 <Smoovious> I find my stuff gets solen a lot less when I threaten to kick t heir ass if they touch anything, than if I say nothing and just trust they won't
20:13:17 <peter1138> hmm, i did 36 in a 30 and attended a 'training course' for 2 hours
20:13:22 <peter1138> it was that or have 3 points...
20:13:38 <toresbe> Smoovious: Yeah, but that's stupid. That's not a trust relationship as one would have with ones child, or pupil
20:13:41 <peter1138> (35 in a 30 and you won't get stopped)
20:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> peter1138: is that miles per hour?
20:14:07 <Smoovious> a child, isn't capable of that level of thought and reason yet...
20:14:09 <mikk36> well, here i can drive +20 in city usually without any actions
20:14:19 <toresbe> Smoovious: That's really wrong.
20:14:22 <mikk36> and in the evenings i usually go +30
20:14:23 <Smoovious> trusting in a child's ability to reason, is rediculous
20:14:47 <toresbe> Smoovious: Trusting in a child's ability to understand that you trust him or her works perfectly fine.
20:14:49 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause3: police guidelines in the uk are speedlimit + 10% + 3mph
20:15:03 <mikk36> that +3mph is variable here
20:15:07 <mikk36> it depends on the radar gun
20:15:09 <Smoovious> toresbe... it is sounding more and more that you're exactly the kind of parent being talked about in that bash.org post, and in my subsequent comments...
20:15:16 <peter1138> (i.e. you can do 79 mph in a 70)
20:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> mikk36: no, radar gun tolerance is extra
20:15:26 <toresbe> Smoovious: Eh, the kids I look after act great.
20:15:33 <Prof_Frink> It depends on the wanker setting up th Gatso
20:15:35 <Smoovious> take t he blinders off
20:15:48 <Smoovious> 'look after'... not yours?
20:15:51 <Prof_Frink> mikk36: You can be done for doing 7kph below the speed limit??
20:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> radar gun tolerance automatically gets deducted from the value they charge you for
20:16:02 <toresbe> Smoovious: I'm not going to have children until I'm a bit more economically sturdy.
20:16:13 <toresbe> Smoovious: Note that I'm not saying you should never punish children, I'm saying you shouldn't punish them physically, eg. hitting them or such.
20:16:15 <mikk36> Prof_Frink, it's always for your side
20:16:32 <mikk36> that +- is the error-amount
20:16:38 <Smoovious> not yours then... no wonder y ou think the way you do, someone else is doinig all of the d isciplining... come back and have this convo again when yo u have your own kids 5yrs and older
20:17:11 <mikk36> so if the radar gun showed 100kph, you could be driving only 93, and you'll be registered for driving 93kph
20:17:25 <Smoovious> dont g et me wrong... I'm not talking about hitting them... (hitting to me is fist-contact)... accepted discipline methods are what I'm talking about
20:17:36 <stillunknown> My parents never physically hurt as far as i can remember.
20:17:50 <mikk36> you could have been driving also 100, and still get registered for driving 9
20:17:51 <toresbe> Smoovious: Accepted in certainly morally retarded countries, yeah :)
20:18:14 <Smoovious> the spankings, paddlings, and beltings, were all about being painful... there was nothing about them that hurt
20:18:29 <toresbe> that kind of thing would *never* fly here in Europe.
20:18:37 <toresbe> It's child abuse. Period.
20:18:48 <Smoovious> morally retarded... please... the Norwegians I've met put my parent's discipline practices to shame...
20:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... what's the difference between "pain" and "hurt" in your eyes?
20:19:04 <mikk36> you could also drive at 107kph, and it could still show 100, and you'll get registered for driving @ 93
20:19:15 <Smoovious> pain is the feeling... hurt, is damage
20:19:38 <toresbe> Smoovious: Are you talking about Minnesotans now, or?
20:19:52 <mikk36> understand now, Prof_Frink ?
20:19:57 <peter1138> Prof_Frink: yeah, that's the guidelines though :)
20:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> still does not make a difference for me, Smoovious
20:20:15 <Smoovious> Minnesotans and Norwegians don't look at all alike...
20:20:27 <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... t h ere is a d ifference tho
20:20:27 <toresbe> Smoovious: Don't say that around one of them.
20:20:45 <Smoovious> toresbe I say what I please around anyone
20:20:58 <toresbe> Smoovious: I recommend a sense of humour.
20:21:16 <Smoovious> I have a sense of humor... you're just not funny...
20:21:39 <Smoovious> btw, I'm done with this...
20:21:56 <toresbe> I'm a bit oversensitive about the "it's ok to punch him a *little*" arguments. I've lived in orphanages.
20:22:12 <Smoovious> you'll get a big awakening when you have your own kids... until then, you really have nothing to say about what does and doesn't work... you're not qualified...
20:22:33 <Smoovious> I have never, ever, said, that i t is ok to punch him...
20:22:52 <toresbe> Oh, no, punching is different from spanking, of course.
20:23:00 <Smoovious> then why bring it up?
20:23:05 <toresbe> I was being sarcastic.
20:23:22 <Smoovious> you can't have a serious discussion about it, can you?
20:23:23 <peter1138> smacking just stings. punching really hurts
20:23:26 <toresbe> It's all physical punishment. A parent shouldn't hurt his child.
20:23:48 <Smoovious> I agree... a parent shouldn't 'hurt' their chilid... discipline, isn't 'hurt'
20:24:22 * toresbe likes this discussion
20:24:27 <mikk36> there are different disciplinary methots
20:24:37 <Smoovious> what are you... nine?
20:24:40 <mikk36> and i prefer to call physical punishment one of them
20:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> i was telling you this discussion went nowhere half an hour ago :p
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20:30:12 <Smoovious> yeah, but there was nothing else being talked about at the time
20:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> and now there is?
20:31:19 <Smoovious> doesn't appear to be... I got nothing to add to peter1138's superman comment
20:31:52 <kaan> wow, i go away for one minute and then you start talking like madmen
20:32:40 <kaan> oh, i beleive toresbe is right about the subject of children and physical pubushment
20:34:02 <peter1138> Smoovious: musician
20:34:40 <Smoovious> oh really? I'm a musician-type... :) what does she do?
20:35:17 <peter1138> 'experimental' stuff
20:35:22 <peter1138> like, er, 'o superman'
20:35:52 <Smoovious> might be worth checking out
20:37:32 <Bjarni> <kaan> wow, i go away for one minute and then you start talking like madmen <--- the channel tries to adapt to your level... or something
20:38:44 <kaan> here is a madman for you
20:39:50 <Smoovious> thnx peter1138, but already downloading... :)
20:39:53 <peter1138> not exactly exciting video stuff ;p
20:40:30 <peter1138> bah, youtube lags for me
20:40:35 <peter1138> i think my firefox is fucked in the head :/
20:40:58 <peter1138> no, i was just making a general complaint :)
20:44:57 <kaan> I really like the part where erik spandmand gives a speach about the dangers of beer right after taking a bottle full of canabis smoke :)
20:45:27 * Prof_Frink konquers peter1138
20:47:11 <Smoovious> its called a 'bong'
20:47:30 <kaan> not when you smoke like erik
20:48:11 <kaan> he takes a bottle without a buttom and a bucket of water
20:49:28 <mikk36> kaan, and what age are you ?
20:50:05 <mikk36> just to get a real understanding of your comments
20:50:33 <mikk36> i'd take them differently if you'd say that you're 10
20:50:58 <kaan> well im danish, that would influence my english quite a bit
20:51:21 <mikk36> i'm not talking about the spelling
20:51:36 <mikk36> i mean the idea behind the writing
20:51:39 <Smoovious> <kaan> he takes a bottle without a buttom and a bucket of water <--- was there more to that? felt left hanging waiting for the rest
20:51:45 <kaan> im also refering to the words i choose and my (lack) of grammatics
20:51:58 <mikk36> well, i'm used to bad english
20:52:10 <kaan> Smoovious: look at the video, its explains it quite well ;)
20:52:12 <mikk36> because few people take proper english into account
20:52:37 <Smoovious> can you just tell me? I'm not motivated to go back and forth between computers making sure I typed the URL right
20:53:21 <kaan> well imagine that you put the bottle in the water untill only the part you normally drink from is over water
20:53:57 <kaan> then you put your pipe int the opening and light it while pulling the bottle slowly from the water
20:54:20 <kaan> this makes the bottle suck air into the bottle through the lit pipe
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20:54:45 <kaan> when at the top you remove the pipe and put you mouth there and lower the bottle fast
20:55:15 <Smoovious> quite a joke too...
20:55:26 <Smoovious> no self-respecting smoker would waste the smoke like that...
20:55:39 <kaan> and the guy in the movie is also quite a dopehead
20:55:40 <Smoovious> and btw... that, although very badly done, is a bong
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20:56:29 <kaan> erik spandmand is using this method because his lungs cant smoke the normal way anymore ;)
20:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> you must know it :p
20:56:44 <Smoovious> he probably only did that for the clip... no way he actually smokes like that regularly
20:57:05 <kaan> look at the black edge on the bucket
20:57:15 <Smoovious> ahh... that would make sense... but there are still much better ways to do it
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20:57:22 <kaan> is leftovers from the smoke
20:57:31 <Smoovious> that's called resin
20:58:53 <mikk36> sad that i don't understand anything from that eriks speech
20:59:25 <Smoovious> someone should send erik a positve-pressure pipe...
20:59:29 <kaan> i can sum it up for you, hes praising the weed and cursing the cops
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21:14:39 <Kosma> stillunknown: svn merge is the correct way to reverse a commit
21:15:09 <Kosma> like, if you want to rever changes made between revisions 10 and 20, it would be svn merge -r 20:10
21:15:52 <Kosma> since it preserves pretty much everything like properties and new/deleted files
21:16:48 <mikk36> sry, Eddi|zuHause3, if i create another non-ottd topic :P
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21:28:59 <Smoovious> yeah... too full of himself...
21:29:51 <Smoovious> bad choice of song for his 'Mr. Love' name too
21:30:24 <Smoovious> welp... he did say before it, he was doing it for the publicity... sounds like he got it. :)
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21:32:00 <mikk36> also, wasn't he from the US either ?
21:32:13 <mikk36> talking about his target "america" or smth
21:34:16 <Smoovious> he was from Canadaa
21:34:29 <mikk36> doesn't mean he lived there
21:34:32 <Smoovious> tho he did say he performed in the US...
21:34:49 <Smoovious> but I don't see him being big in the US either...
21:35:11 <mikk36> peter1138, did you own w810i ?
21:35:37 <Smoovious> or why wouldn't he have tried American Idol if that was his target? We don't see the german version very much over here
21:35:41 <peter1138> no i didn't own a w810i
21:37:33 <colle> mikk36: I used to have one of those, anything you're wondering about it?
21:38:07 <mikk36> just that someone commented here that he couldn't get mini opera to work
21:38:20 <mikk36> though on mine, 3.1 works fine
21:39:13 <colle> ok, I guess you could try to update the software in the non-working phone
21:39:19 <mikk36> 4 beta, though, couldn't get connected
21:39:55 <mikk36> i have the latest version on my phone
21:41:32 <colle> check if you have the same firmware version then
21:42:08 <mikk36> which is the latest "release"
21:42:46 <colle> don't know, the forums on www.esato.com lists the versions though
21:43:16 <mikk36> latest versions of what ?
21:43:34 <colle> the firmware for SE's phones
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21:50:57 <Smoovious> I gotta take a ride on that one of these days
21:51:42 <Smoovious> wonder how fast they could have got going if they didn't have to slow down for the stop
21:52:00 <mikk36> well, it stopped acceleration on 431kph
21:52:15 <mikk36> so it's safety-limited there
21:53:09 <Smoovious> well, I can't relate to kph as I'm always dealing with mph...
21:53:44 <Prof_Frink> Smoovious: I liked the comment: Faster than a Bugatti Veyron for $8
21:53:56 <Smoovious> I drove 90mph average on a trip to texas a long time ago... I thought that was crazy-fast at the time, on highways... (limit was 55 at the time)
21:54:40 <Smoovious> then I figure that 90mph... and I was only doing a third of that maglev? crazy...
21:54:44 <Prof_Frink> Smoovious: Drive that slow on the M6Toll and people'll be stuck behind you
21:54:48 <Smoovious> it is a measure of currency
21:55:13 <Smoovious> Prof_Frink... well, I wasn't in a performance car either
21:55:28 <Prof_Frink> A punto's hardly performance ;)
21:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> 90mph? that is only like 150km/h
21:55:48 <mikk36> 90mph aint really fost
21:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, 100mph == 160km/h
21:56:36 <Smoovious> the radar detector worked SOOO well going through Arkansas... at home, I can expect 0.5-1.0 mile warning of a speed trap... but Arkansas is so flat... 10minutes after it started going off, I was still looking for the trap, and we hadn't passed it yet
21:57:46 <mikk36> the usual speed if i'm in a hurry on a highway
21:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> radar detectors?? those are very illegal here
21:58:06 <mikk36> if not, then i drive @ 120kph
21:58:23 <mikk36> they're illegal everywhere
21:58:29 <Smoovious> speed limits are set by the states here... most are back up to 70mph... federals withhold money from states going above that tho, and one state said 'fine, keep it' and set theirs higher... a few years, they didn't have a highway limit, but I think they do now, of ~80
21:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> i usually go ~160km/h when unlimited
21:58:41 <Prof_Frink> They ain't illegal in .uk
21:58:49 <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... depending on which state you're in, they're illegal here too
21:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> usual limit around europe is 130km/h
22:00:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> in germany, that is "recommended speed" in the unlimited sections
22:00:25 <Smoovious> store|food run, back ~20min
22:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> although you might find some insurances not paying if you have an accident when driving faster than that
22:02:58 <Smoovious> I'd like to see min/max speeds by lane-position...
22:03:29 <Prof_Frink> Smoovious: But then, you'd have everyone in the fast lane even more
22:03:46 <Smoovious> being tailgated in the slow lane, or having to hit my brakes in the fast lane and end up being passed by both slow lanes as a result, irks me
22:04:08 <Prof_Frink> What annoys me is:
22:04:17 <Prof_Frink> Empty motorway, doing about 80
22:04:40 <Smoovious> having established limits per lane would allow the police to ticket people in the wrong lane more
22:04:43 <Prof_Frink> in the middle fscking lane!
22:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Smoovious> I'd like to see min/max speeds by lane-position... <- they have that in certain locations (usually uphill)
22:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> but not generally
22:06:10 <Smoovious> and it doesn't have to be drastic... slow->fast = right->left... people in the right lane have max/min limits of 70/55... center lane 80/65... left lane 90/75...
22:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> there's a pretty long steep downhill section on the A3 (southbound towards Frankfurt, Main), which has max 40km/h on the right lane, and max 100km/h on the middle and left lanes
22:07:13 <Prof_Frink> Smoovious: And then, on an empty motorway, there's be someone driving at 75 in the fast lane and a massive queue behind them
22:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> and they have two stationary radar stations there, so people actually stick to the limits
22:07:39 <Smoovious> how could s omeone on an empty motorway have a massive queue behind him?
22:08:01 <Prof_Frink> Because everyone's in the fast lane so they can drive at 75
22:08:10 <Smoovious> but... its empty...
22:08:33 <Prof_Frink> undertaking is far more illegal than speeding
22:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... it's mandatory to drive as right as possible, if you are not overtaking someone
22:09:11 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause3: So, with this system, an empty motorway (not overtaking) would have a lower speed limit than a congested one?
22:09:13 <Smoovious> if someone was doing 75 in the fast lane, according to my earlier comment, it'd be illegal
22:09:13 <Biff> Eddi|zuHause3: thats the only sane rule
22:09:32 <Smoovious> you could pass em in the right lane
22:09:41 <Biff> i dont understand how the americans can do without that rule
22:10:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> Prof_Frink: no, if there are differen speed limits, the lanes are counted like several roads, which also implies you can drive faster on the right lane than on the left lane
22:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> (if the limits allow it, of course)
22:10:53 <Prof_Frink> Basically, it comes down to being a nice idea, if it wasn't for one thing: people.
22:10:56 <Smoovious> for 2-lane-in-one-direction, you're supposed to stay right, and left is suppoed to be used for overtaking... for 3-lane-in-one-direction-or-more, lane choice isn't that restrictive... tho trucks usually can't use the far left lane
22:11:04 <Smoovious> except for exiting on t he left
22:11:38 <Prof_Frink> Now, laws to stop lorries overtaking on the M26, I'm all in favour of
22:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> like on the previously mentioned 100/40 km/h section, you cannot overtake anyone at 40km/h when the left lane has a minimum speed of 60km/h (standard in germany)
22:12:04 <peter1138> Prof_Frink: undertaking is a "do not", not a "must not" in the highway code...
22:12:38 <Biff> what do you mean by undertaking?
22:12:45 <Prof_Frink> OVertaking on the left
22:12:45 <Biff> passing someone on the wrong side?
22:12:46 <peter1138> i.e. you'd get done for dangerous driving or something, rather than "overtaking on the wrong side"
22:13:35 <Smoovious> undertaking is frowned upon, but the police are forgiving of it... t hey're more after the people who are undertaking while speeding... if you are undertaking cuz some idiot in front of you is g oing too slow, while you're otherwise legal, it is the idiot t hey'll deal with
22:13:44 <Biff> that is something you must often do here, because a lot of people stay in the left lane, without lookning in the mirrors
22:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> only that in britain, "undertaking" would be on the left side, not the right side :)
22:15:36 <Smoovious> yeah, well, you guys drive on the wrong side anyways
22:15:45 <Smoovious> we drive o n the right side
22:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm not in britain
22:16:08 <Biff> seems to be better with rhd tho
22:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have never driven in britain either
22:16:19 <Biff> so you can always keep your right arm on the wheel
22:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> i find i can steer better with my left arm...
22:17:08 <Smoovious> my left arm always is steering... the right arm, that I favor, has to do everything else in the car except turn signal
22:17:30 <Smoovious> better to do it quick, than fumble around with the lesser arm
22:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> although i sometimes find myself in a little left-handed behaviour
22:18:49 *** skidd14 has joined #openttd
22:19:30 <skidd14> If I try to remove an opponets road. I get an assertion. Can someone copy this in latest trunk too?
22:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> 14? you got promoted or something? ;p
22:21:00 *** skidd14 is now known as Skidd14
22:21:32 *** Skidd14 is now known as Skidd13_real
22:22:19 *** Skidd13_real is now known as skidd13
22:23:04 *** raimar3 has joined #openttd
22:23:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> i like how the language compilation is not interrupted by those stupid warnings anymore :)
22:26:56 <skidd13> I only get the assertion If I remove the hs.dat and start openttd with "~/bin/openttd/openttd -c ~/bin/openttd/openttd.cfg -b 8bpp-optimized -s null -m null -v sdl" else everything works fine
22:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> what is hs.dat?
22:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> oh, that explains why i do not have one :)
22:29:05 <glx> it's created on first run
22:29:41 <caladan> quess it tries to write that file in place where you have no permission?
22:30:22 <skidd13> "src/player.h:241: Player* GetPlayer(PlayerID): Assertion `( (uint)((i) - (PLAYER_FIRST)) < ((uint)((sizeof(_players)/sizeof(_players[0])))) )' failed."
22:31:28 <skidd13> backtrace? What do you need?
22:31:54 <glx> we need to know what calles GetPlayer
22:32:11 <glx> and what is the passed value
22:32:24 <skidd13> As I said I tried to remove an opponents road.
22:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> i can reproduce it...
22:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> without extra options
22:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> <glx> it's created on first run <- i think rather first time a highscore is reached
22:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> which i never did in my history of openttd :)
22:35:39 <glx> no, when I first run win32 or win9x builds (testing the installer) I have an hs.dat in the dir
22:36:23 <skidd13> On linux same behavior.
22:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, yes, now i see it, too...
22:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have a backtrace, if you want...
22:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> looks like string handling with the error message
22:40:13 <glx> I have a backtrace too :)
22:40:23 <skidd13> I've to get up early tomorrow. Good night...
22:40:35 <glx> let's start gdb and follow the values :)
22:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> english.txt:287:STR_013B_OWNED_BY :{WHITE}...owned by {STRING2}
22:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> should possibly be {COMPANY} there
22:43:14 <glx> it seems int64->int32 cast failed
22:46:31 <glx> hmm or an incorrect SetDParam
22:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... english.txt:158:STR_00B3_MESSAGE_FROM :{YELLOW}Message from {COMPANY}
22:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> this seems to be the string used
22:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... this exceeds my knowledge of the inner workings of openttd...
23:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> but it's probably a forgotten conversion from the introduction of {COMPANY}
23:11:56 *** raimar2 has joined #openttd
23:15:33 <NukeBuster> -Fix (r10323): 'message from company' text used {STRING1} instead of {COMPANY}\
23:36:35 <Smoovious> would it be a big deal to lighten the amount of transparency-shadow with transparent buildings? you get a few tall buildings overlapping, and it gets so dark you can barely see what's behind em
23:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> i believe transparency is kind of a palette hack, difficult to change in 8bpp
23:39:48 <Belugas> not currently, Smoovious.
23:39:55 <Belugas> indeed, Eddi|zuHause3
continue to next day ⏵
