IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-06-20
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02:35:59 <Belugas> nice work you did, btw
02:36:49 <TheJosh> Thankyou. ill take that as you liking it?
02:41:59 <TheJosh> now ofcourse theres the issue of geting it into trunk... :)
02:44:17 <Digitalfox> What issue TheJosh ?? We just need to send some money to belugas, i'm sure he wouldn't mind :) Right Belugas ?? ;)
02:44:25 <Belugas> to be honest, TheJosh, i made myself a commitment to work exclusively on newindustries, which i do at the moment.
02:44:47 <Belugas> until it is done, i won't touch anyting else, no mattter how pleasant or good it may be
02:45:09 <TheJosh> so Belugas, do you have paypal?
02:45:29 <TheJosh> whats yoir prefferred currecncy?
02:46:07 <TheJosh> my sisters boyfriend is a jeweller, i can get you some if you want
02:52:54 <TheJosh> hmm, what other developers are on
02:53:10 * TheJosh wonders the best way to suck up
02:57:20 <TheJosh> im just joking around mainly...you have svn access right?
02:57:41 <glx> yes, but I don't have time :)
02:58:15 <TheJosh> there must be someone here that will swap a commit for gold (or money)
02:59:04 <glx> [04:59:04] <TheJosh> what time is it?
02:59:36 <TheJosh> dang...ill come back in a few hours
03:00:03 <TheJosh> what are you doing on the net at 5am?
03:01:13 <TheJosh> when is a good time for people? tis midday here
03:01:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10231 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: MSVC project files
03:03:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10232 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp:
03:03:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix(r1): _numof_industry_table never was composed of 12 entries. Only 11.
03:03:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: It never hurt before, but it would have...
03:03:42 <Belugas> i'm the only one on another continent (north america)
03:04:02 <TheJosh> ah ok. well sleep well
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07:28:31 <dihedral> seems awfully quiet in here!
07:36:51 <dihedral> thats a way of putting it
07:37:38 <Rubidium> the silence before the storm?
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07:46:51 <|Gekkko|> therefore the world will end
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08:46:43 <peter1138> you need to up the saveload version too
08:47:15 <Chris82> I did so, the savegame was made with 66 so I set the CONDVAR to from 66 and the SAVEGAME_VERSION is now 67 in saveload.cpp
08:47:18 <Chris82> but I still get the error
08:48:50 <Chris82> this seems very odd anyway, which unknown tag can the savegame containt when the old setting was S (i.e. do not store in savegame)
08:49:57 <peter1138> you need to set the CONDVAR to from 67
08:50:02 <peter1138> as it didn't exist in 66
08:52:22 <Chris82> perfect that did the job, thx for the quick help so early in the morning =)
08:53:04 <Phazorx> hmm... can i profile ottd within mingw?
08:58:25 <Rubidium> depends on whether you can actually profile anything in mingw ;)
08:59:51 <|Gekkko|> the windows version is MinGW?
09:01:27 <Chris82> Does anybody know how to change the default size of a window with the better graphs patch?
09:01:42 <Chris82> The standard windows seem pretty tiny on a big screen when opened
09:02:47 <Phazorx> Rubidium: that exactly is my question
09:03:39 <Maedhros> Chris82: look for the static const Widget _<name> and WindowDesc arrays, and change the width and height there
09:03:59 <Rubidium> Phazorx: sounds like a question for some mingw specialists and I don't think we've got them here
09:04:21 <Chris82> thx, I think I found the correct line :)
09:04:53 <Maedhros> Chris82: you'll have to change all the widget widths and heights too
09:04:59 <Maedhros> yay for pixel-based guis ;)
09:05:25 <Phazorx> yay for search and replace too :)
09:06:00 <Chris82> +static const WindowDesc _history_window_desc = {
09:06:01 <Chris82> + WDP_AUTO, WDP_AUTO, 640, 256,
09:06:10 <Chris82> I think this is the line for width and height?
09:06:31 <Chris82> it should draw all of the graph windows since they all open with the same size by default
09:07:41 <Maedhros> it should do, perhaps, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't ;)
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09:28:33 <Chris82> Maedhros: Haha well that partially did what I wanted, it only increased the size of the graph itself
09:28:39 <TheJosh> hey i am just interested, whats the demographic of players using different operating systems?
09:28:50 <Chris82> the window has still the same size, so the borders are smaller than the graph and also the title bar
09:30:22 <Rubidium> TheJosh: very hard to determine; most Windows/OSX people download the binaries, most linux/unix users compile directly from subversion
09:31:54 <Biff> the linux-binaries takes some time to come out, so you often have to compile
09:32:52 <Chris82> Rubidium: Then I am very constrasty to other people :D I am Windows fanatic, but I only compile OTTD myself :D
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09:33:30 <Phazorx> i tihnk that is easy to determine amongsts active players by putting a poll on download page
09:34:11 <Rubidium> Phazorx: doesn't work, because a lot of people (especially linux) compile straight from subversion and therefor never see that page
09:34:59 <Phazorx> svn probably has stats too
09:35:27 <Rubidium> don't think it tells you the operating system
09:36:08 <Caemyr> Chris82: this is the whole beauty of open source software
09:36:14 <Caemyr> to compile it yourself
09:37:07 *** |Gekkko| is now known as Gekkko
09:37:41 <Caemyr> i`m also a WinNT fanboy, but i compile each new rev of ReactOS myself, even though it takes quite a lot of time...
09:37:55 <Caemyr> i`m getting things ready to compile OTTD as well
09:38:38 <Rubidium> setting up a working build environment under windows is pretty tricky, unless you use buildottd ofcourse
09:38:59 <Caemyr> you have a building environment?
09:40:39 <Rubidium> well, a user made it. You can find it on the forum and sf.net
09:42:22 <Caemyr> if only it works, i cant ask for more
09:43:02 <Rubidium> as long as it's gcc-2.95 or more, but 4 is probably best
09:43:09 <Gekkko> can the Win32 version be compiled from GNU/Linux?
09:43:15 <Caemyr> 3.4.5 was pretty buggy
09:43:36 <Noldo> Rubidium: 2.95 might not be good if someone has used stdlib containers
09:43:56 <Maedhros> it works - the morphos port is compiled with it
09:44:27 <Biff> Chris82: you compile windows yourself?
09:44:41 <Rubidium> gcc 2.95 gives a big load of warnings though
09:45:22 <Chris82> An operating system is nothing that should be open source.
09:45:33 <Caemyr> i`m still amazed seeing what you`ve done with good old ttdlx
09:46:05 <Chris82> I am primarily absolutely against open source. Games like OTTD is something ok, but Open Source Anti Virus Tools, Firewall, or even Operating Systems, noooo way I am ever gonna use that.
09:46:29 <Biff> Chris82: so, if the source code of windows would be open, you would delete windows?
09:46:38 <Chris82> Yes, then I'd use Mac OS X
09:46:52 <Gekkko> Mac OS X is partly Open Source
09:46:57 <Chris82> I don't like the idea of every hacker in the world knowing the source code of all software I use
09:47:07 <Biff> Chris82: go on, delete it. its partly open source already, alot of students etc have access to the source code of windows
09:47:23 <Gekkko> you wonder how you have your machine dying.
09:47:28 <Noldo> Chris82: if it's well coded the source won't help
09:47:34 <Chris82> I am computer science student, but it would be new to me that I get Windows Source Code access :D
09:47:47 <Gekkko> seems that you are in the wrong profession
09:47:51 <Gekkko> or going towards it anywho
09:47:52 <Noldo> Chris82: is it's not well coded hiding the source won't help in protecting you
09:48:17 <Gekkko> lol Noldo: Windows secret to security is the //fixme written all through out their source code
09:48:25 <Gekkko> could you imagine Vista written in ASM?
09:48:48 <Noldo> Chris82: And can you tell if windows is well coded?
09:49:21 <Chris82> No I can't tell because I don't even have the skills to code anything even closely as complex as Windows.
09:49:36 <Chris82> When I see the source I wouldn't be able to tell it as well :p
09:49:43 <Biff> Chris82: more then 1 person makes a operating system
09:49:49 <peter1138> worst argument ever against opensource
09:50:08 <Gekkko> I believe in kick ban :)
09:50:11 <Chris82> But speaking of source code, I gotta hurry to uni for my Java exercice :p
09:50:21 <Biff> Gekkko: i belive in free speech
09:50:33 <TrueBrain> @kick Gekkko I too believe in kicks
09:50:34 *** Gekkko was kicked by DorpsGek (I too believe in kicks)
09:50:44 <Chris82> I have nothing against people who like open source
09:50:49 <Chris82> and I have nothing against Linux
09:50:49 <Noldo> gekko belives in autorejoin
09:50:55 <Chris82> it's just nothing that I want to use
09:51:00 <TrueBrain> next time it is a ban for 2 minutes :p Mwhahahaha!
09:51:17 <TrueBrain> Chris82: I have nothing against people who use Windows, I ust wish them good luck keeping it clean ;)
09:51:20 <Biff> Chris82: so you propose that Windows is more secure then a Linux-based operating system?
09:51:42 <Sionide> Chris82, you're *not* going to win this...
09:51:49 <Noldo> Biff: now you are toning he down
09:52:00 <Chris82> Depends on the user. If you're a computer noob a default Win Vista install is at least at a comparable level like Debian for example.
09:52:17 <Chris82> And 99% of all computer users are noobs in my opinion.
09:52:20 <Rubidium> Chris82: so you prefer an OS that no outsider can reviewed properly over an OS that can be reviewed properly by outsiders.
09:52:53 <Chris82> I personally do yes, because I don't believe in all these calling home and NSA registry key theories =D
09:53:13 <Biff> you dont belive in them, but noone can check it out
09:53:13 <TrueBrain> Chris82: but you do suspect Open Source OSes doing that?
09:53:35 <Chris82> I mean the Vista Firewall even blocks the Windows Activation in contrary to the XP Firewall, isn't that a nice improvement :D:D haha
09:53:38 <Gekkko> I laugh at your communist theory.
09:53:57 <Sionide> Chris82, you've got quite a misguided view of open source
09:53:58 <Rubidium> nah, he believes that it is easier to exploit open source OSes than closed source OSes
09:54:18 <Gekkko> I believe no matter what OS you're on, you're gonna get DoS'ed.
09:54:18 <Chris82> That's more my point yes.
09:54:36 <Gekkko> just depends on how your system copes
09:54:38 <Sionide> Chris82, you're misguided, your view is based on nothing except your own assumptions and preconceptions..
09:54:43 <Chris82> No OS calls home or anywhere unless you got hacked or didn't de-activate all this user experience crap which is not only in Windows.
09:54:52 <Sionide> Gekkko, maybe not if you use Tor? :P
09:55:01 <Chris82> It's based on my experience with a Linux Server for 7 years.
09:55:17 <Gekkko> but I run a web server
09:55:25 <Chris82> Since I am no computer expert I got hacked 2 times! This didn't happen with my Win 2k3 Server yet which I have for about the same time.
09:55:27 <TrueBrain> You can have a webserver and run Tor
09:55:29 <Gekkko> noone try my IP, it's all closed right now
09:55:29 *** Nickman^Away is now known as Nickman
09:55:32 <Chris82> Although Windows is much less secure of course.
09:55:35 <Gekkko> TrueBrain: didn't knwo that
09:55:49 <Gekkko> Chris82: tell me again why you are doing BSc?
09:55:57 <TrueBrain> Chris82: haha, that is a bad example to say OpenSource is worse over some Closed Source ;)
09:56:09 <TrueBrain> that you just protected your installion poorly ;)
09:56:17 <Rubidium> Chris82: and what was the reason you've got hacked?
09:56:20 <Sionide> Chris82, a friend of mine used to have the same view as you, that it must be easier to hack into open source because you can see the source code, it took me about 10 minutes to convince him otherwise but i'm not wasting my time doing the same for you
09:56:21 <Chris82> Servers are something where Linux and Windows actually share a bigger market
09:56:36 <Gekkko> Sionide: I thought it would be easier to hack too
09:56:39 <Gekkko> but then I thought about it
09:56:45 <Sionide> Gekkko, and saw the light
09:56:46 <Gekkko> my own brain phases an argument
09:56:54 <Sionide> Gekkko, the light of the bulb above your head going on, that is
09:57:02 <TrueBrain> Example: I manage around N windows servers, and 4 * N ^ 2 Linux servers... the Windows servers need to reboot about every month, and are magicly rebooted once in the 3months... the linux servers run for over a year (then I do a kernel update)
09:57:02 <Chris82> Anyway gotta hurry to uni lecture starts in 15 mins :p
09:57:07 <Gekkko> I haven't used Windows at all for 3 weeks
09:57:07 <Chris82> we can continue this later ;)
09:57:09 <TrueBrain> no, we want you to get late :p
09:57:20 <Gekkko> I had to use it for gaming :P
09:57:26 <Chris82> haha then you don't know how fast I'm with my bike :p
09:57:50 <Sionide> Chris82, with IMglish like that - you'll never win an argument in your life!
09:58:05 <Gekkko> TrueBrain: I love compiling a kernel
09:58:14 <TrueBrain> @kick Sionide blablabla, now that is a nasty thing to say
09:58:14 *** Sionide was kicked by DorpsGek (blablabla, now that is a nasty thing to say)
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09:58:34 <TrueBrain> Gekkko: it is nice to compile kernels in general :) Just not nice to reboot all the time on production servers ;)
09:58:39 <TrueBrain> clients do not like that ;)
09:58:47 <Noldo> Gekkko: I find it exiting too, I never know when my computer reboots from overheating
09:59:03 <Gekkko> I'm about to setup a shell company
09:59:20 <Gekkko> bought teh domain and all.
09:59:45 <Gekkko> the best part is: AMD Duron 800mhz with 386mb ram
10:00:09 <TheJosh> i had a computer once with 4mb or ram and a 25mhz processor
10:00:29 <TheJosh> also ran samba and apache
10:00:46 <TrueBrain> if it is an arm CPU
10:01:01 <TheJosh> or a 286 cant remember
10:01:03 <TrueBrain> (only stating a MHz doesn't get you anywhere)
10:01:16 <eekee> You won't run Linux on a 286
10:01:34 <TheJosh> if that needed a 386 then it was a 386
10:02:11 <eekee> Yeah my first Linux was kernel 2.0.14 on an 8MB 486... 12MHz iirc, although I soom upgraded to 33MHz with VLB
10:02:44 <Gekkko> do you think people will pay to use that system?
10:02:56 <Gekkko> I don't limit what apps can be used
10:03:00 <Gekkko> except nothing illegal
10:03:04 <Gekkko> eggdrop, etc can be used
10:03:14 <eekee> ooh, little bit maybe, ya
10:03:17 <peter1138> did 486s ever come at 12MHz?
10:03:17 <Gekkko> remote X for an extra $5 a month
10:04:28 <eekee> peter1138: yep. In fact, this had a 15-MHz chip soldered in underneath the PSU, and someone had "upgraded" it with a plug-in 12MHz
10:07:31 <eekee> I put X on it & stuff segfaulted constantly until I added another 4MB of ram much later, against dire warning to never have more ram than half your swap. It ran fine
10:08:07 <TheJosh> average production for a day
10:08:13 <Gekkko> time to attempt ripping cds in Linux
10:08:23 <Gekkko> then I sadly have to reboot into Linux for iTunes.
10:08:29 <Gekkko> oh wait, I've got gtkpod.
10:08:50 <TheJosh> reboot? what does that mean again? i forget
10:08:51 <hylje> dd if=/media/cdrom of=/home/gekko/ripped-cd
10:09:12 <TheJosh> there are even tools for ripping audio to ogg
10:09:49 <hylje> for the record, articulated tram
10:10:21 <Gekkko> I use a Palm PDA for my music
10:10:31 <Gekkko> everything on my PDA is Open Source
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10:10:38 <eekee> I wish my Zaurus hadn't broken
10:10:48 <TheJosh> i have a computer for my music
10:10:54 <TheJosh> and an equaliser and 3 amps
10:11:04 <TheJosh> serious home-made soundsystem,
10:11:04 <Brianetta> openttd: command.c:529: DoCommandP: Assertion `res == res2' failed.
10:11:21 <TheJosh> i think res equals res2.
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10:11:49 <dihedral> Brianetta: that looks nice
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10:12:18 <TheJosh> one of my speakers died recently though. one of my real good loud bassy ones. works but is crap quality. may need a new driver :(
10:12:26 <TheJosh> there goes $300 to $500 bucks
10:12:44 <hylje> enjoy your sound systems
10:12:55 <TheJosh> ill open it up and check its not just a loose conection or a dead crossover
10:13:12 <TheJosh> when it was working it was awsome though. i tested it recently, 103 db
10:13:13 <eekee> My comp's linked up to an old Toshiba amp that probably dates from the mid-80s. That feeds into speakers which aren't bad, but both the amp & the speakers have a warm somewhat muddy tone so together they aren't very good
10:13:19 <TheJosh> concert volume in a room
10:13:57 <hylje> amps dont really obsolete
10:14:07 <TheJosh> im down to 2 tweeters at the moment till i work out this big speaker
10:14:13 <eekee> ^^ The alternative is my headphones, I got a pair of Sennheiser HD 590s I really like ^^ They have a sharp tone which balances the amp reasonably well
10:14:24 * geoff_k uses old realistic reciever amp
10:14:26 <TheJosh> hope it works again, its a real nice one
10:14:43 <eekee> hylje: yeah... the big capacitors in them just blow up eventually ^^;
10:14:43 <TheJosh> 12 inch bass driver with a magnet about 15x15x15 cm
10:15:14 <geoff_k> with 2 b&w studio monitors which dont actualy belong on it and htey sound too hard with the bass
10:15:37 <geoff_k> they belog on my nad amp realy but i no used it for some time in the livingroom which also has been used for a while
10:15:47 <TheJosh> hylje: its mega. the amp on number 3 out of 10 things start shaking
10:15:54 <Gekkko> can anyone upload their df to somewhere for me
10:15:59 <Gekkko> I'm too lazy to compile one myself right now
10:16:05 <Gekkko> and busybox is angrying me
10:16:12 <TheJosh> i used to have them under the couch and play halo and the couch would vibrate
10:18:26 <eekee> I got my Z & I was all like, "Flipping heck, I had bash 2.0 & a FULL set of tools on an 8MB, 12MHz 486 and they worked FINE, & this thing has 16MB & a 166MHz ARM, and I'm stuck with this busybox crap???
10:18:40 <Zr40> Report bugs to <bug-coreutils@gnu.org>.
10:18:51 <Gekkko> but I compiled coreutils
10:19:44 <peter1138> eekee: linux is certainly bloated these days :(
10:20:09 <TheJosh> you can always use LFS and then you can choose how bloated you want to make it
10:20:11 <eekee> peter1138: I know. They put Gtk+ 2.0 in PDAs & apps take forever to start. It's horrible!
10:20:18 <geoff_k> its bloated if you use ubuntu, i use slackware its not at all bloated runs well
10:20:35 <eekee> TheJosh: I was gonna LFS my PDA. Never got round to it :J
10:20:51 <Gekkko> eekee: wht kiind of PDA
10:20:56 <TheJosh> i started LFS but i got bored
10:21:27 <eekee> Gekko Zaurus SL-5500, the bottom-line Zaurus, near-enough
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10:21:44 <TheJosh> i put gentoo on a machine i made for my sisters
10:21:51 <TheJosh> they wanted windows but i have no money
10:22:03 <SmatZ> I tried LFS, but Gentoo sems easier to handle
10:22:36 <TheJosh> plenty of control, but a heap easier than LFS
10:22:40 <eekee> I LFS's from the old mini-howto, & from the sources on aSUSE dvd-rom because I didn't have internet, but eventually I got very frustrated. Used Gentoo for a bit & then went to Source Mage
10:23:22 <Gekkko> Zr40: it wouldnt copy because "Text file busy"
10:23:27 <Gekkko> so I rmed half of /bin
10:23:46 <Zr40> Gekkko: "Text file busy"? I've never heard of that error.
10:24:03 <Zr40> but even so, Linux allows deletion of in-use files
10:24:18 <Gekkko> also it hotswaps files
10:24:31 <Gekkko> I changed irssi and it didnt log me out
10:24:37 <eekee> I think I might have had that error once. Prolly deleting something in-use on a vfat fs
10:24:56 <Zr40> Gekkko: that's what I said :)
10:25:29 <Zr40> but the running irssi isn't magically updated without restarting it
10:25:45 <eekee> I do remember once beign unable to delete an in-use binary on an ext2 fs. That was wierd
10:26:16 <Zr40> eekee: perhaps it was locked in a weird way.
10:26:24 <Zr40> eekee: next time that happens, try lsof | grep filename
10:26:31 <Zr40> replace filename, of course
10:26:46 <Caemyr> eekee: the slowest 486 was 33mhz
10:26:50 <eekee> never had much luck with lsof, but ty
10:27:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10233 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix: 8bpp-optimized encoder fucked up if 255+ pixels in a row were non-transparent (tnx boekabart)
10:27:23 <eekee> Caemyr: Maybe that was the first one they brought out, but you're neglecting budget ones
10:27:36 <Caemyr> and linux cant run 286 as this cpu is unable to run in protected mode
10:28:18 <TheJosh> there must be a way...a lot of source hacking
10:28:19 <SmatZ> Caemyr: I have 486SX @ 25MHz
10:28:29 <TheJosh> the programmign ethos: "Hack it till it works"
10:28:32 <eekee> Caemyr: oh.. fook, I not only had 12 & 15 (or was it 16) MHz 486s, but I had and knew of many 25MHz ones. Check your facts :)
10:28:40 <TheJosh> while (broken) { hackIt(); }
10:29:20 <Caemyr> look, 386 were 16-40mhz
10:29:36 <Gekkko> it mounted my ipod with trunticated filenames
10:29:47 <Caemyr> and 486 was the next gen
10:30:05 <Gekkko> should i precify that fact
10:30:13 <Gekkko> now it font let me unmount
10:30:17 <Gekkko> damn crappy crap apple
10:30:21 <Zr40> Gekkko: are you sure you mounted it as vfat as TheJosh says? only vfat supports long file names
10:30:25 <eekee> Caemyr: stop working things out & check your facts. There is no logical accounting for marketting decisions, so that's the only way!
10:30:31 <Zr40> Gekkko: blame microsoft, not apple
10:30:31 <Gekkko> Zr40: i just said mount
10:30:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10234 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix r10233: make peter1138 happy
10:30:40 <Zr40> Gekkko: linux picks the first working filesystem
10:31:00 <TheJosh> vfat is fat16/32 + long filenames
10:31:02 <Caemyr> a 486 mobo wouldn`t work on such fsb
10:31:08 <TheJosh> msdos is the same but not longfilenames
10:31:09 <Zr40> Gekkko: if you use the iPod on Windows, it's formatted as fat32
10:31:20 <Gekkko> even when i unplugged the ipod
10:31:30 <Gekkko> umount: forced umount of /dev/sdg2 failed!
10:31:31 <Zr40> if you use it on Macs, it's formatted as hfs+
10:31:40 <Zr40> TheJosh: the ipod doesn't support that :)
10:31:48 <TheJosh> hack it till it works
10:31:57 <eekee> *shrug* No acounting for marketting folk :) Do remember though, that a 15 or 16MHz 486 would be about as fast, internally, as a 33MHz 386. I dont' think the average user cared that the bus would b slower, lol
10:32:00 <Zr40> so it becomes an expensive storage medium
10:32:19 <Gekkko> because it wont umount
10:32:22 <Zr40> Gekkko: what does dmesg say?
10:32:23 <Gekkko> unless someone has an idea
10:32:25 <Gekkko> how to really force it
10:33:00 <TheJosh> you cant unmount a removed volume
10:33:01 <Zr40> umount -f *before* unplugging :)
10:33:10 <TheJosh> did you mount as root?
10:33:26 <SmatZ> eekee: some of those UMC 80486
10:33:29 <Gekkko> that should never be an option
10:33:31 <TheJosh> i know its non-linux but it works
10:33:34 <eekee> I really hate when stuff won't umount
10:33:51 <eekee> yeah, only thing you have to restart for, lol
10:33:53 <TheJosh> remove the line then its not mounted
10:33:56 <Zr40> TheJosh: that doesn't solve it
10:34:05 <Zr40> TheJosh: especially on current kernels
10:34:16 <Zr40> as the kernel keeps an internal state of mount points
10:34:17 <eekee> SmatZ: yeah, I think these chips were UMC...
10:34:29 <Gekkko> plugging the ipod into this pc reset it
10:34:32 <Zr40> mtab is for backward compatibility
10:34:46 <Gekkko> Zr40: this is one backward linux
10:34:49 <eekee> mtab has some info that /proc/mounts doesn't
10:35:01 <Zr40> Gekkko: I mean, for really old linuxes
10:36:07 <TheJosh> or go to runlevel 1 then go back again
10:36:33 <Zr40> that doesn't solve problems in the kernel
10:36:39 <eekee> Zr40: errrrr.. less than it used to :D but try this: cat /proc/mounts ; echo ; cat /etc/mtab
10:36:43 <Chris82> I see your open source software works well today *g*
10:37:21 <Chris82> I said I am quick on the bike :p
10:37:24 <eekee> Zr40: also remember that /etc/mtab is POSIX, /proc/mounts isn't. The Un*x world is not confined to Linux
10:37:33 <Zr40> eekee: what I said, compatibility
10:37:47 <Zr40> eekee: the only difference I see is on the usbfs line in mtab
10:37:50 <Chris82> This whole discussion is actually the bigger reason for me not to use Linux
10:37:56 <Zr40> and usbfs is a linux thing :)
10:38:06 <Chris82> if you already have problems with this what do you think would all the average users do?
10:38:15 <Caemyr> Chris82: you spawned this discussion:P
10:38:30 <Sionide> Chris82, i don't have problems with mine.. mainly because i don't tinker with it an awful lot, so it doesn't break.. windows breaks if you tinker with it.
10:38:34 <Caemyr> Windows users also seek help
10:38:42 <Chris82> all I said was saying that I am Windows fanatic but compile OTTD myself instead of downloading bins :D
10:38:47 <Caemyr> but they rarely can describe their problem properly
10:38:57 <eekee> Chris82: eh, we didn't used to have problems before the Cult of the New got involved, and personally I blame megacorps like Microsoft fot the cult of the new
10:39:05 *** |Gekkko| has joined #openttd
10:39:10 <Caemyr> then said that you wouldn`t use open source OS
10:39:13 *** |Gekkko| is now known as Gekkko
10:39:24 * Rubidium has much more problems and issues getting Windows to compile OpenTTD properly than Linux
10:39:38 <Chris82> yeah I know but what's wrong with it, some people don't use open source os'es, other's do :D
10:39:38 <eekee> I get a bit nervous when people say "compatibility for older linuxes" as if a feature which has worked well since the beginning of UN*X is going away D:
10:39:48 <Chris82> luckily we live in a free world where neither Windows nore Linux is forced on us
10:40:02 <Sionide> Chris82, that's a joke... surely?
10:40:13 <Gekkko> omg it's Chris82 again
10:40:17 <Rubidium> so, if "amount of problems someone has with an OS" is a manner to determine whether noobs have issues with it, then noobs have more issues with windows than with linux
10:40:25 <Chris82> yeah my lecture didn't take as long as I thought
10:40:28 <Caemyr> unless you buy a pc and they force you to have windows with it
10:40:36 <Gekkko> you need to spend time studying
10:40:41 <Caemyr> for which you pay no matter you want it or not;P
10:40:48 <Gekkko> Chris82: you're German
10:40:53 <eekee> I know a guy who quit his job because after acheiving impressive levels of efficiency with Linux, his boss suddenly forced Windows onto him
10:41:03 <Caemyr> if not directly, then it`s included in the rig`s price
10:41:27 <eekee> Caemyr: there's instructions for gettign the money back on your Windows licence, somewhere ont he web :)
10:41:31 <Chris82> yeah a Dell with Windows the Win licence costs like 20 or 30 USD
10:41:38 <Chris82> that's really not much
10:41:46 <Sionide> Chris82, free software isn't just about the price
10:41:53 <eekee> Caemyr: please don't make me ;.;
10:42:01 <Caemyr> changing the component required you to purchase license again:P
10:42:03 <Chris82> and as I said I also have nothing against open source in general
10:42:13 <Chris82> little nifty tools, games like OpenTTD they are awesome
10:42:15 <Gekkko> and I'll still use a pirated product.
10:42:26 <Caemyr> you state that opensource applications are easier to hack:)
10:42:31 <Chris82> but an os, or an anti virus tool I want that closed source
10:42:31 <eekee> Caemyr: I knooooow ;,,,,,; ;,,,,,,; I want to forget such evils exist in the world, pleeeeease!!!!!
10:42:33 <Caemyr> which is 'complete bs'
10:42:44 <Gekkko> Don't go there girlfriend
10:42:45 <Sionide> Chris82, i'll say it again heh, your view is misguided
10:42:48 * Gekkko clicks fingers 3 times.
10:43:00 <eekee> Chris82: then you're either an idiot or you've never heard of a decompiler
10:43:07 <Caemyr> i can see loads of pages
10:43:09 <Sionide> Chris82, by your own assumptions and preconceptions
10:43:17 <Chris82> I just speak from what I experienced with a Linux server for 7 years and then what I experienced with a Windows server for 6 years
10:43:18 <Caemyr> why there arent such for linux?
10:43:36 <Chris82> if there wouldn't be Linux exploits, there would be no hacked servers
10:43:57 <Sionide> Chris82, you're not differentiating between "Linux" and "any other free software applications you might run"
10:44:01 <Chris82> many are from PHP and such things, but still there are Linux stand alone servers hacked as well
10:44:04 <Rubidium> Chris82: so, you got hacked twice with the Linux server? How were you hacked remains a valid question on whether the OS is to blame or the user or another application
10:44:08 <Gekkko> if there wouldn't be Windows exploits, microsoft.com wouldn't get DoS'd so much
10:44:20 <Sionide> Chris82, there are still windows stand alone server hacked as well...
10:44:33 <Chris82> the root account was hacked because a logging process was faulty
10:44:36 <Gekkko> Port sniffing doesnt discriminate OS
10:44:39 <Chris82> I don't know the exact happenings
10:44:40 <Caemyr> no matter if Linux or Windows
10:44:51 <Chris82> if I would have known about the "hole" I would have closed it
10:44:57 <Sionide> Chris82, so you didn't install security upgrades?
10:45:02 <Caemyr> around 90% of hacking is successfull due to user being a noob
10:45:04 <geoff_k> its not aways the OS's fault soemone hacks it, its offen down to poor admin skills by the user for which im no expert for sure
10:45:08 <Chris82> I had an auto update function running
10:45:17 <Chris82> I have no time remoting all day long just to see if there are any security updates
10:45:19 <Caemyr> and leaving a gate wide open to their system
10:45:44 <Chris82> yes I agree with that, most hacked servers are due to bad admin skills
10:45:49 <Chris82> and not necessarily the OSes fault
10:45:51 <Caemyr> like running Admin/root
10:45:56 <Gekkko> whats a good way to use an ipod on linux?
10:45:57 <Chris82> but in my opinion Windows is much easier to use than Linux
10:45:58 <Rubidium> Chris82: what kind of logging process?
10:46:06 <Chris82> and therefor less experienced users can achieve better results
10:46:14 <Chris82> if you're an expert Linux will work great for you
10:46:20 <Caemyr> but it is not due to Windows being closed source
10:46:21 <Sionide> Gekkko, gtkpod has worked for me in the past, other than that it just connects as an external usb disk..
10:46:22 <eekee> I dunno about servers. I just seeeeriously expect my OS to come with some form of MINIMAL guards that make viruses VERY DIFFICULT to write come BUILT IN and NOT inconvenience me significantly. Linux inherited that from Un*x, who inherited that from other multi-user OSs, who had that kind fo protection IN THE 60s!!!!!
10:46:23 <Chris82> but the vast majority of computer users are no experts
10:46:26 <Caemyr> and Linux being opensource
10:46:43 <Sionide> Chris82, have you tried ubuntu on a desktop machine?
10:46:46 <Caemyr> Chris82: there will be an opensource Windows, do not fear
10:46:50 <Sionide> Chris82, you don't need to be an expert to run ubuntu
10:46:57 <Chris82> and my first days with Linux were awful.... please check this dependency there, this conflict there
10:47:14 <Chris82> whenever I installed one single application I had to solve 10 conflicts and check 50 dependencies
10:47:27 <Chris82> I know that's not as bad anymore, but it just makes the system complicated and time consuming
10:47:29 <Caemyr> but look at the average windows user
10:47:30 <Sionide> Chris82, it takes me 2 or 3 clicks maximum to install an application -_-
10:47:44 <Caemyr> "My system doesnt boot. What do i do?"
10:47:46 <Chris82> I mean I don't care if my text writing app starts 0,1 sec slower on Windows when I save a few hours maintaining my system
10:47:48 <Rubidium> Chris82: that's just a stupid application installer; a proper one would solve almost all of those issues for you
10:47:49 <Gekkko> and open source windows is called ReactOS
10:47:50 <geoff_k> there are many distros you can run without dependancy issues, i have had no dependancy problems for a long time
10:47:54 <Chris82> FreeBSD? no I was using Red Hat
10:48:03 <Gekkko> it never required challenge
10:48:28 <Chris82> and another problem I had in connection with the server I am running
10:48:47 <eekee> Windows? Help? I think every Windows computer shop out there uses a different technical vocabulary, and little of it makes sense to someone who grew up knowing the its-and-bytes internals of computers
10:48:47 <Gekkko> sounds like you live for proprietary applicaiton
10:48:49 <Chris82> whenever I tried to upgrade PHP or something like this it caused massive headaches and I ended up with a broken system many times after such an upgrade
10:48:53 <Gekkko> enjoy wasting your cpu cycles
10:48:54 <Caemyr> WinNT has some good sides
10:48:57 <Gekkko> this argument is redundant.
10:48:58 <Rubidium> Chris82: under windows I would be needing a lot of time to check and update each and every application I've got installed. Under Debian you just do apt-get update && apt-get upgrade and it's done for you.
10:48:58 <Chris82> when I want to upgrade PHP on my Windows Server I never had any problems
10:49:03 <geoff_k> best way to avoid dependancy issues, is get a distro best fits your purpose i rely on 3 main distros to do things
10:49:05 <Caemyr> best driver base ever existed
10:49:18 <Biff> Chris82: apt-get dist-upgrade, and php is upgraded
10:49:36 <Chris82> yeah it works well in new Debian distros, I already said it's not as bad anymore
10:49:49 <Chris82> that was a few years ago when I was using Red Hat and got crappy experiences with it
10:49:54 <Rubidium> Chris82: define "new" please
10:50:02 <Chris82> I just wanted to tell you where my "bad opinion" is coming from
10:50:11 <Sionide> Chris82, if you think it's that easy that hackers can look at the source code for my OS and hack into it, why hasn't somebody done it already? i've been running Ubuntu linux for 2 years ish, why hasn't somebody looked at the code and hacked into me yet?
10:50:15 <Chris82> new as in downloaded this year :D
10:50:21 <geoff_k> i never upgrade either i rebuild services, but then my servers are on virtual machines
10:50:36 <Gekkko> Sionide: because when someone abuses the source, someone patches it within minutes
10:50:42 <Gekkko> thank God for Aspergers Syndrome
10:50:48 <Chris82> Sionide, that's not an argument, I am running Windows for more than a decade and no one has hacked it as well
10:51:10 <Chris82> normal desktop PCs are not hacked anyway unless a noob downloading dialers or stuff like that sits in front of it
10:51:34 <Maedhros> my roommate once got a virus within 5 minutes of installing windows xp :p
10:51:40 <geoff_k> or installing a load of freeware from silly places
10:51:45 <Rubidium> Chris82: I've been using Debian since 2000 and even in those days it worked like it works now
10:51:45 <Maedhros> without doing anything himself
10:51:52 <eekee> heh, you run anything like ssh, you can watch the attempts being made to crack your password in your logs
10:52:08 <Chris82> Rubidium: Yeah Debian is much better than Red Hat anyway or Fedora as it is called now
10:52:09 <Caemyr> eekee: better to watch it live
10:52:13 <Gekkko> Chris82: you said you've been hacked twice
10:52:14 <Caemyr> its quite funny actually
10:52:38 <Caemyr> i sometimes enable ftp server
10:52:43 <eekee> Caemyr: eh, no-one's got in in 2.5 years, or if they have they haven't found my system worth damaging
10:52:49 <Gekkko> here's a clue: don't put ssh on port 22
10:52:51 <geoff_k> eekee, you can use ssh keys to prevent logins without the key you can't then
10:52:55 <Caemyr> to see some jerks do dictionary attacks
10:52:55 <Gekkko> don't put ftp on whatever it's port is
10:53:02 <Rubidium> oh, and I've been running multiple servers for about the same time and I've never had any breakins
10:53:04 <geoff_k> i dot use ftp its bad
10:53:07 <eekee> geoff_k: interesting, ty
10:53:17 <Sionide> my ssh runs one time passwords... pretty difficult to hack that, even though the source is as open as anything
10:53:24 <Gekkko> and takes 10 steps to transfer one file
10:53:32 <Caemyr> you generate 32 char password
10:53:40 <Gekkko> passphrase is the best
10:53:42 <Caemyr> and see them sweating over it
10:53:42 <Chris82> well my passwords are definitely not the problem they look like #23sHH#323?sdHH
10:53:45 <Chris82> and change every 2 weeks
10:53:49 <geoff_k> ftp transfers passwords unencrypted same goes for http always use https
10:53:50 <eekee> I had pure-ftpd running for a long stretch & no trouble :D
10:53:51 <Gekkko> It rains more on a Sunday than a Monday.
10:54:15 <Chris82> I am running BulletProof FTP
10:54:21 <Chris82> but I don't think that's open source
10:54:31 <eekee> then again, it wsan't like, and advertised server, but I could watch access attempts in the logs ^^;;;
10:54:33 <Caemyr> but i must say i`m quite pleased of my win2k3 standart
10:54:34 <TheJosh> what are the paramters for the gui widget WWT_IMGBTN
10:54:38 <Gekkko> Chris82: do you pay for your Windows
10:54:41 <geoff_k> i use sftp and windows users can conect using winscp which is damn nice tool
10:54:46 <Caemyr> it`s perfect as a desktop:P
10:55:00 <Chris82> Gekkko: Sometimes. Depends on if I am using an MSDNAA version or something like Vista Ultimate.
10:55:08 <Rubidium> FTP is broken by design when you need authentication (period).
10:55:15 <Gekkko> By that I mean you don't pirate it.
10:55:18 <Chris82> I don't mind paying for it, I get very good and virtually free telephone support for it.
10:55:27 <Gekkko> Do you pirate software Chris82?
10:55:41 <Chris82> Even my Photoshop is an original :p
10:55:41 <Gekkko> Have you ever installed pirated software Chris82?
10:55:57 <Gekkko> Do you realise that they are crammed with keyloggers?
10:56:02 <Gekkko> and trojans and rootkits?
10:56:08 <Chris82> Why? The Adobe Suite only costs 300 bucks for students
10:56:19 <Chris82> and I can remove it from my taxes
10:56:20 <Gekkko> I love the use of only.
10:56:23 <Caemyr> Gekkko: do you use windows?
10:56:24 <TheJosh> i want to disable a WWT_IMGBTN
10:56:24 <TheJosh> a button on the transperency gui
10:56:29 <Chris82> I know that's not the right word, but I don't know how it is called
10:56:35 <Gekkko> Caemyr: only at school, and even the I use PuTTY
10:56:47 <hylje> Gekkko: pirate software is generally virus free
10:56:48 <Caemyr> this is when a good antivirus comes in handy
10:56:58 <Rubidium> Gekkko: using putty to telnet ;)
10:57:00 <Chris82> well tell me one Open Source software that is even closely as user friendly and good as Photoshop and Dreamweaver and Premiere :D
10:57:04 <Chris82> then I might consider using this software
10:57:22 <Chris82> does it work on Windows?
10:57:29 <hylje> Gekkko: the crackers, scene groups usually, never plant malware on their products; cracks, keygens
10:57:38 <Gekkko> hylje: that's what they want you to think
10:57:49 <Gekkko> how do you think they crack the serials in the first place?
10:58:04 <Chris82> my dad is one of these computer noobs going to a crack site and having ten viruses per week :D
10:58:09 <hylje> you can of course get your cracks from dodgy sites
10:58:21 <Gekkko> love the use of dodgy site
10:58:28 <Gekkko> what kind of crack site isnt dodgy
10:58:31 <Chris82> All crack sites are dodgy if you ask me :p
10:58:43 <Gekkko> Pure cracks, courtesy of virii.ru
10:58:49 <Gekkko> affiliate of trojan.ro
10:58:55 <Caemyr> depends where do you get the pirated stuff from
10:59:00 <hylje> due to what the cracker groups are, they do not have official sites per se
10:59:04 <Caemyr> but this is not the good topic for discussion
10:59:07 <Gekkko> why pirate when you can use Linux
10:59:11 <Gekkko> my pc boots in 20 seconds flat.
10:59:11 <Chris82> Well I don't like pirated software
10:59:20 <Chris82> I either buy it or use free software
10:59:37 <Caemyr> Gekkko: did you buy TTDLX?
10:59:41 <Chris82> I tried to use Sun OS once it looked really nifty, but nothing runs on it :D
10:59:42 <geoff_k> Gekkko, i agree i have no need for cracked stuff, linux does everything *i* need which is quite a lot
10:59:58 <geoff_k> i can do far more on linux than any windows box will let me
10:59:58 <eekee> I'm more presonally inclined to screw GNU than the kernel :D
10:59:59 <Chris82> Caemyr: Don't say you have a pirated copy of TTDLX =O =O
11:00:01 <Gekkko> Chris82: do you realise how ancient that is
11:00:13 <Gekkko> Caemyr: my TTDX is DOS version
11:00:19 <Gekkko> I'm just that hardcore.
11:00:25 <Chris82> yeah I have the dos version on diskettes :D haha
11:00:25 <hylje> i wouldnt really put abandonware under piracy
11:00:28 <Caemyr> when did you buy it?:)
11:00:30 * geoff_k wants to try gnu/hurd, im in progress of making space to get the iso's
11:00:33 <Sionide> Gekkko, pfft i'm got TTDO on floppy disk at home
11:00:38 <Gekkko> like 8 years ago in a $5 rack :)
11:00:48 <peter1138> i'd put abandonware under 'imagination' and 'figment of'
11:00:48 <Caemyr> you are a Linux user arent you?:)
11:01:04 <eekee> Peter's technically right :/
11:01:08 <Sionide> woah let's not get into this debate though..
11:01:10 <Gekkko> Linux stasi 2.6.18.1 #1 Thu Feb 1 23:05:39 PUP 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
11:01:23 <Chris82> that's your username?
11:01:29 <Sionide> Gekkko, get a kernal upgrade :P
11:01:29 <Sionide> Linux sphinx 2.6.20-16-generic #2 SMP Thu Jun 7 20:19:32 UTC 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
11:01:36 <Chris82> good name for a non calling home box :D haha
11:01:43 <Sionide> Gekkko, make install you?
11:02:08 <Sionide> Gekkko, i'll... traceroute you! zomg i'm such a l33t hacker :D
11:02:20 <TrueBrain> I smell 2 bans coming up...
11:02:26 <Chris82> anyway let's end this debate and say nothing is better or worse, Linux and Windows both have its advantages and disadvantages and tastes are different, so this would be a never ending story :D
11:02:30 <Gekkko> You'll find my secret stash of furniture porn!
11:02:45 <Gekkko> Chris82: you can't win
11:02:56 <Chris82> I don't intend to win.
11:03:03 <Gekkko> as open source has more pros than cons
11:03:06 <hylje> so you win.. by losing?
11:03:17 <Gekkko> Chris82: go back to the 70's
11:03:23 <Chris82> too complicated and time consuming, the software that I need is not available, games don't run well
11:03:27 <Maedhros> Gekkko: drop it, please...
11:03:35 <Chris82> anyway I said let's end it
11:03:42 <Rubidium> I'll guess I must get Gekkko's IP address and do a `iptables -A INPUT -s <Gekko's IP> -j MIRROR`
11:03:53 <Rubidium> then he may try to hack me
11:04:11 <Gekkko> and if you hack me and erase everything
11:04:21 <Gekkko> backing up a 100mb partition isnt hard
11:04:26 <Caemyr> dvd-rw is a wondrous device
11:04:32 <Gekkko> you wanna hear insanity?
11:04:38 <TheJosh> how could I disable a button based on a patch optoin?
11:04:42 <Gekkko> no user accounts whatsoever
11:04:49 <Rubidium> Gekkko: question is how long you keep those backups
11:04:50 <Caemyr> Gekkko: its ok if you know what you do
11:04:57 <Gekkko> Caemyr: I know what I do.
11:05:05 <Gekkko> noone gives me reason why running root is bad
11:05:10 <hylje> humans are by definition stupid
11:05:21 <TrueBrain> software as root user with bugs means trouble
11:05:22 <geoff_k> lvm snapshots are good for backing up volumes
11:05:23 <eekee> what, and computers aren't? :D
11:05:31 <Caemyr> i`m running admin account on my win2k3 desk right now
11:05:38 <Gekkko> TrueBrain: backups = no trouble
11:05:43 <hylje> thats because you can't run windows as user
11:05:54 <TrueBrain> Gekkko: depends how long you keep backups
11:05:59 <Gekkko> running Windows as user is like killing yourself with a spoon
11:06:01 <Chris82> but then it's as complicated as Linux to work with it :D lol
11:06:14 <Caemyr> Gekkko: more like a chopstick
11:06:19 <Gekkko> Chris82: Wine is perfect for playing games.
11:06:20 <hylje> if its possible but not usable, it doesnt exist
11:06:29 <Chris82> Is it better in the meantime?
11:06:34 <Gekkko> I ran NWN on a Voodoo3 using Mesa
11:06:35 <Chris82> I have used it a few years ago the last time
11:06:39 <geoff_k> my fav games are opensource linux/windows so im happy
11:06:40 <Caemyr> try to play online server with Pb
11:06:43 <Chris82> do games like Oblivion work with it?
11:06:43 <TrueBrain> hylje: you are opssible, but not usable, so you don't exist... cool!
11:06:55 <Gekkko> geoff_k: Alpha Centauri :D
11:07:04 <Chris82> or Supreme Commander?
11:07:12 <eekee> I kinda miss Alpha Centaurii
11:07:15 <Gekkko> geoff_k: I'm not fond of it
11:07:19 <TrueBrain> cedega runs more games than wine
11:07:21 <Gekkko> eekee: it has native Linux support
11:07:23 <TrueBrain> at least it runs HL2 :)
11:07:25 <Gekkko> I downloaded it recently
11:07:29 <Gekkko> you can't buy it anywhere
11:07:30 <hylje> wine gets better all the time, but it already runs all the games and little utilities i may need
11:07:33 <Chris82> didn't you have to pay for WINE anyway ?
11:07:34 <geoff_k> only this game and freeciv i ever play these days
11:07:34 <eekee> Gekko: I know, looked for it on ebay once; nothing
11:07:59 <Caemyr> hylje: but there are still plenty of games that they cant run
11:08:18 <Caemyr> also sometimes new revisions dont run games that earlier revisions could
11:08:30 <eekee> I kinda prefer openttd to freeciv. I feel violent when I play most strategy games :D I'm kinda bipolar, I even find myself wantign to get too compettitive in OpenTTD
11:08:58 <Chris82> Cedega: nVidia GeForce class video card (recommended) are they serious?
11:09:00 <geoff_k> opensource roller coaster tycoon would be good, but its not got much potential for multiplayer
11:09:06 <Chris82> =O What about ATI? lol
11:09:17 <Gekkko> Chris82: ATi is easier to install, but has lesser features
11:09:18 <hylje> ati works, but at the moment ati drivers suck
11:09:21 <eekee> Chris82: Yeah, nVidia has better opengl support as far as I gather
11:09:30 <Gekkko> I have both nvidia and ati
11:09:40 <Gekkko> my nvidia 64mb is better than my ati 128mb
11:09:42 <Zr40> what's ewwww about OpenGL?
11:09:44 <Caemyr> you should check it on windows
11:09:47 <Gekkko> i get 16 fps on my ati
11:09:53 <Caemyr> ATI is better in dx than ogl
11:09:58 <hylje> Chris82: you are succumbed to MS FUD about ogl
11:10:01 <Caemyr> still has issues with ogl
11:10:01 <eekee> Chris82: lol, whot, you meen using Windows drivers that disable OpenGL acceleration or something? :D
11:10:18 <Caemyr> but nvidia drivers hack kernel so much on NT
11:10:21 <Chris82> well on Vista ATI performance is great for D3D games, OpenGL sucks of course
11:10:29 <Caemyr> you can get BSODs regularly
11:10:31 <Chris82> anyway, is there a compatibility list for Cedega somwhere?
11:10:44 <hylje> vista gfx driver architechture sucks
11:10:48 <Chris82> BSOD? Never saw one on Vista, I already doubt they exist *g*
11:10:58 <Caemyr> Chris82 start with opengl sucking on vista, big time
11:10:59 <Chris82> Well, it makes things slower that's true
11:11:03 <Chris82> but it also reduces crashes
11:11:20 <Caemyr> comparing to XP they moved whole Dx to usermode
11:11:33 <Chris82> The Catalyst drivers and Logitech webcam drivers causes massive bluescreens on XP
11:11:36 <Chris82> they don't do on Vista
11:11:45 <Caemyr> Chris82: in your dream
11:11:46 <Zr40> Chris82: then why am I not getting them?
11:11:59 <Chris82> anyway, I am searching for a compatibility list for Cedega
11:12:06 <Chris82> I wanted to check if my games run with it so I can test it
11:13:08 <eekee> Chris82: check transgaming.org
11:13:15 <geoff_k> another game i'd like is something like age of Empires II on linux, few patches to something like that i'd be addicted
11:13:19 <Gekkko> Chris82: I do believe your XP was screwed over by the confederacy
11:13:24 <eekee> (or .net <_< it's been a while)
11:13:26 <Ailure> I assume that's some kind of screensaver?
11:13:30 <Chris82> (12 months; 55 USD annually; one month free) =O
11:13:38 <Gekkko> Ailure: no, just a superimposed error for an error
11:13:42 <Chris82> do I read that wrongfully? or do I have to pay 55 USD a year to use it
11:13:48 <Gekkko> but there is a bsod screensaver
11:13:51 <hylje> you can pirate it just fine
11:13:51 <Zr40> Chris82: no. You pay $55 for updates
11:13:54 <Gekkko> looks like your pc rebooting over and over
11:14:05 <Chris82> What is the price to initially buy it then?
11:14:28 <eekee> yeah.. I... uh... foud wine + cracks to run several games that cedega wouldn't <_<;
11:14:41 <hylje> wine is better than cedega
11:14:51 <Zr40> Chris82: $15 (three months of updates)
11:15:01 <hylje> all that's in for cedega is the proprietary copyprot support
11:15:04 <Chris82> That's a bit expensive.
11:15:26 <Gekkko> seeing a trojan cave into itself
11:15:31 <hylje> but wine is doing the lower-level approach, eventually supporting native copyprot
11:15:39 <Chris82> Buying cedega doesn't really make sense imho, you can simply buy an OEM XP to play games as well :p lol
11:15:48 <Gekkko> HOW THE HELL DO I UMOUNT A DAMN IPOD
11:16:00 <Chris82> iPod is Mac optimized didn't you know :p
11:16:03 <Zr40> Gekkko: I assume you haven't rebooted yet
11:16:13 <Chris82> and it's still there?
11:16:14 <eekee> Gekkko: Just reboot :/ umounting is one of Linuxes weakest points, IMHO
11:16:19 <TheJosh> does gtkpod have a remove thingo?
11:16:24 <hylje> Chris82: but that involves rebooting all the time
11:16:40 <Chris82> You mean XP involves rebooting?
11:16:43 <Gekkko> lol #openttd is better than ##linux on freenode
11:16:45 <Chris82> since when do I need to reboot for games
11:16:51 <Gekkko> you dont get kicked for asking amusingly noobish questions
11:16:54 <TheJosh> ipods have big cahces on them. if you transfer songs, it returns immedietly, but is still transferrign
11:17:07 <eekee> Not necessarily. VMware or Qemu or soemthing like that may help, but drivers may be an issue
11:17:23 <TheJosh> Gekko: have you tried hacking?
11:17:26 <Gekkko> TheJosh: the little spinny thing on it isnt doing the spinny thing
11:17:53 <Gekkko> because it's an apple gif?
11:17:58 <Gekkko> I've hacked ipods muchly.
11:17:59 <eekee> Gekkko: do you have an automounter running?
11:18:08 <Gekkko> I'm too hardcore for udev
11:18:31 <Chris82> well SupCom has bugs with Cedega and Oblivion doesn't work at all, checking WINE :D
11:18:49 <Gekkko> that makes me angered in so many ways
11:19:16 <Gekkko> i've got normal mount compiled
11:19:44 <Chris82> Oblivion doesn't work with WINE as well
11:20:05 <Gekkko> Real men don't play games.
11:20:19 <Caemyr> dont play "crappy" games
11:20:27 <Chris82> real men watch porn instead ?
11:20:35 <hylje> oblivion barely worked on windows :\
11:20:37 <Gekkko> real men watch porn while play OTTD while compiling
11:20:44 <Chris82> well it works fine for me
11:20:55 <Gekkko> NWN2 at 17fps rocks my sox
11:20:56 <hylje> memoryleaked like crazy
11:21:08 <TrueBrain> UT2003 works with Wine, nuff for me :)
11:21:11 <Chris82> well that has nothing to do with Windows
11:21:14 <Chris82> that's a bug in the game
11:21:21 <hylje> it still didnt quite work
11:21:30 <hylje> stop defending your poor platform
11:21:35 <Chris82> yeah the first version was ugly, but the patches fixed it
11:21:39 <eekee> SL memory leaks like steenk
11:22:25 <Chris82> I go play a real game now
11:22:44 <Gekkko> removes the need to "multitask"
11:22:52 <Gekkko> also makes a nice playing field for OTTD
11:22:53 <Caemyr> at least we can agree to one thing
11:23:05 * eekee refrains from comments abotu Windows multitasking :D
11:23:08 <Chris82> OTTD is bringing the people together and works on every platform :D
11:23:16 <hylje> i use ottd on a 800x600 window
11:23:17 <Gekkko> that's one reason I use Linux
11:23:26 <hylje> out of a 1600x1200 desktop
11:23:27 <Gekkko> it supports multiple monitors properly
11:23:36 <Gekkko> Windows chokes at the concept
11:23:38 <Gekkko> and shits up the walls
11:23:44 <Gekkko> gets set loose in a padded cell
11:23:50 <Gekkko> and still finds a way to kill itself
11:23:54 <hylje> which is for the record larger than Gekkko's
11:23:54 <eekee> hylje: I play in 800x600 & in 1680x1050, depending on whether I'm in bed or at the desktop lol
11:24:23 <Gekkko> hylje: it's one monitor
11:24:29 <Gekkko> the resolution is higher
11:24:38 <Gekkko> therefore on a screen, it's smaller
11:24:39 <hylje> resolution defines the viewing area
11:24:44 <Caemyr> Gekkko: Linux feels Win just behind its back, this is why you penguinistas get so aggresive about it
11:24:47 <Gekkko> but its not seen bigger
11:25:03 <Chris82> I agree with you about that Caemyr :)
11:25:07 <Gekkko> Caemyr: Linux has nothing to do with my argument
11:25:09 <Chris82> but Mac users are even worse
11:25:17 <Gekkko> I don't give a flaming shit about the kernel, I <3 GNU
11:25:27 <hylje> technically superior OS zealots are generally bitter
11:25:32 <Chris82> It's really seldom that I hear Windows users bashing "others", I can't say that for many Maccies
11:25:43 <Caemyr> Gekkko: XP had the similar ambience when it appeared
11:25:46 <hylje> windows users are apathetic
11:26:06 <Caemyr> hylje: linux users even more
11:26:27 <hylje> linux (and mac) people tend to be more aware of their stuff
11:26:47 <eekee> Yeah, the average Windows user may be pleasantly apathetic, btu there are enough... eh...
11:26:51 <Caemyr> especially for Mac users
11:27:11 <hylje> its not like they havent tried
11:27:19 <hylje> riaa just wants their monies
11:27:26 <hylje> not particularly happy customers
11:27:49 <hylje> consulting business moreso than intellectual property
11:27:53 <Zr40> "Even when you legally buy Vista, you don't own it." <-- that's the case for XP, 2000, 98, 95, 3.11, ...
11:27:56 <Chris82> How does Open Source enable you to listen to music that is otherwise DRM protected?
11:27:59 <Chris82> that's no solution :p
11:28:06 <eekee> Caemyr: people who don't think that MORE MORE MORE MORE is the only way? In other words, sane people?
11:28:09 <Chris82> unless you pidate the Music of course
11:28:16 <hylje> you crack the DRM usually legall
11:28:19 <Chris82> but I don't want to do that, I'd rather fight for fair prices
11:28:27 <Chris82> I mean 1 USD for one track is insane
11:28:33 <Caemyr> but when i hear someone trying to convince me
11:28:48 <Caemyr> that running closed source app is bad because it limits my freedom
11:29:01 <Caemyr> i want to smack such person so hard he gets into orbit
11:29:01 <geoff_k> before we know it linux could well be packed with drm
11:29:02 <Gekkko> I hate how cd's dont automount
11:29:05 <Gekkko> thats the only thing i hate
11:29:09 <Gekkko> yes udev supports that
11:29:12 <Gekkko> but i dont support udev
11:29:12 <hylje> Gekkko: set up udev+hal
11:29:26 <hylje> enjoy your technical inferiority, and dont whine about it
11:29:37 <eekee> i'm not quite that evangelical any more.
11:29:58 <hylje> Caemyr: you get inherently more choices to yourself with open source
11:30:05 <geoff_k> watch out for trusted computing when that tech finaly kicks in, sounds scarey
11:30:11 <hylje> Caemyr: closed source is very much lock-in, and that's not always fun
11:30:17 <Caemyr> closed-source is one of those choices
11:30:26 <hylje> the fun thing about that is the lock in
11:30:30 <Caemyr> and any attempt to limit it is limiting my freedom
11:30:36 <hylje> you have much less choices then
11:31:00 <Caemyr> i can run open source apps on windows as well
11:31:11 <hylje> but closed source apps lock you to windows
11:31:22 <Caemyr> no one locks me to windows
11:32:09 <hylje> well it *is* a choice to limit later choices..
11:32:09 <Zr40> Caemyr: so you run your financial administration on Windows, your games on Windows, your whatever on Windows
11:32:14 <eekee> your consent choice to use things that are only available for Windows? That's the lock-in ;)
11:32:16 <Zr40> then you decide to use Linux
11:32:39 <Caemyr> for everything i need my pc for
11:32:45 <Zr40> you're still bound to Windows because of the financial administration software, the games and the whatever
11:32:48 <Caemyr> i dont play newest games
11:33:07 <Caemyr> what financial administration software?
11:33:18 <Zr40> <Zr40> Caemyr: so you run your financial administration on Windows, your games on Windows, your whatever on Windows
11:33:29 <Zr40> I don't know what you actually run
11:33:45 <Caemyr> i can count my taxes on whatever os i choose
11:34:13 <Caemyr> Zr40: this is why i support ReactOS
11:34:24 <Chris82> anyway let's end this debate and say nothing is better or worse, Linux and Windows both have its advantages and disadvantages and tastes are different, so this would be a never ending story :D
11:34:42 <Caemyr> freedom is the possibility to run everything as YOU want
11:34:50 <Caemyr> you want only opensource?
11:35:03 <Caemyr> you want other combination? please do
11:35:15 <Zr40> Caemyr: the problem with closed source software is that if you want to change the OS you're using, you can't use the closed source software anymore
11:35:22 <Caemyr> forcing someone to run only opensource is as bad, as forcing to run only closed source
11:35:34 <hylje> your logic has the flaw that closed source forces a certain combination, in most cases
11:35:36 <Zr40> Caemyr: I'm not forcing anything, nor do I want to
11:35:40 <geoff_k> im 100% linux user but i'd windows has far better friendly office tools, and works good i large scale office desktop environment
11:35:56 <Caemyr> this is why WINE is being done
11:35:59 <Gekkko> I <3 Abiword and Gnumeric
11:36:06 <Gekkko> don't need Microsoft Bloatware
11:36:26 <Chris82> argh I hate it when people release patches, and don't compile them to find a simple missing ; :D lol
11:36:27 <Gekkko> just pure miniature open source word processor
11:36:33 <Gekkko> OMFG SOMEONE MIGHT HACK MY WORD PROCESSOR
11:36:41 <Gekkko> dont look at the source
11:36:50 <Gekkko> Mr Aspergers is here to save the day
11:36:54 <Gekkko> for no apparent reason.
11:37:10 <Caemyr> i heard some open source fanboys bashing WINE and ROS
11:37:23 <Caemyr> because they think those projects harm opensource
11:37:31 <Zr40> Caemyr: their logic is flawed.
11:37:40 <eekee> it's the Firefox fanbois that make me laught the most
11:37:45 <Caemyr> becasue they make people perceive closed source apps as not that bad
11:38:10 <Caemyr> Gekkko: i second to that
11:38:16 <Gekkko> The only reason I believe it's not open source is because it's using QT commercial
11:38:25 <Gekkko> as QT Open Source isnt the best thign I've seen
11:38:30 <geoff_k> i like opera but its seems to have issues with flash on me so i don't use it
11:38:41 <Zr40> Gekkko: as it happens, the company I work for uses Qt
11:38:56 <Gekkko> Zr40: I love how KDE looks
11:39:03 <eekee> I'm using Firefox simply as my current Brower of Least Annoyance, & it's a pain, mew
11:39:04 <Caemyr> espeacially page content blocking
11:39:16 <Zr40> Gekkko: Qt Open Source isn't any different from the commercial version, it's just the difference of support
11:39:17 <Caemyr> i have most of the flash ads blocked out
11:39:25 <eekee> KDE WM you dont' have to use, but the libs I dunno
11:39:26 <hylje> Zr40: and viral licence
11:39:31 <Gekkko> Zr40: well, I wouldnt know since I don't use commercial version
11:39:39 <Gekkko> what's the viral licence
11:39:46 <geoff_k> i use flash for my own chat clet on my own chat server otherwise i'd not be using it
11:39:52 <hylje> you link against GPL, you better comply with it
11:40:07 <hylje> hence if you link against GPL Qt, your app needs to be GPL too
11:40:18 <Zr40> hylje: but only if you release the app
11:40:41 <hylje> compliance is needed tho
11:41:06 <eekee> I like Torvald's policy for the kernel: GPL 2, & GPL 2 only, none of this letting Stallman dictate your future policy, for all he's done for OSS
11:41:53 <eekee> lol, I like YouTube & other flash-based video sites, that's the only reason I have it
11:42:16 <Zr40> eekee: that's incorrect. Torvalds chose for GPL2-only because you can't be sure what's in GPL3. For it might allow, in theory, unfree things.
11:42:33 <Caemyr> we are still waiting for Sun
11:42:39 <eekee> Zr40: He's sticking with GPL-2 in the face of the current GPL-3
11:42:45 <Gekkko> Zr40: how many drafts have there been of gpl3
11:42:47 <geoff_k> there is a lot of worry about GPLv3 and possibility of DRM
11:42:49 <Zr40> eekee: because it's not been finalized yet.
11:42:59 <Gekkko> how many appendings and edition
11:43:12 <Zr40> Gekkko: I know. But when the kernel was released, there were no GPLv3 drafts yet
11:43:42 <eekee> Zr40: no, he's written a couple of essays sayign that while he doesn't like DRM, he doesn't feel it's his right to limit end-users choice in the matter.
11:43:59 <Zr40> eekee: did he write them before or after the first v3 draft?
11:44:24 <Gekkko> maybe torvalds should make a GPL-compatible LPL
11:44:46 <Gekkko> Linux - General Public Licence
11:44:57 <eekee> Zr40: ugh.. okay, I didn't check that properly, but I kinda assumed after. Was there anythign in the first draft that might have softenned it?
11:45:29 <geoff_k> if linux give drm in furture i will start supporting gnu/hurd, im looking at starting anytime i want to be prepared
11:45:50 <eekee> I think if your license is a public license there's no need to add the general tag
11:45:57 <Gekkko> geoff_k: I plan to use Hurd as soon as it's stable
11:46:08 <geoff_k> Gekkko, same here as much as possible
11:46:12 <Zr40> eekee: v3 introduced limitations on DRM. v2 doesn't mention it, as that didn't exist back in 1991.
11:46:29 <Gekkko> Zr40: so you mean you cant use GPL with DRM products?
11:46:32 <geoff_k> i haven't looked at it yet but i agree with its policy
11:46:39 <Zr40> Gekkko: I didn't state that.
11:46:50 <eekee> geoff_k: DRM could technically cover companies in-house security systems for their in-house development, as I understand it. That's causing at least a little worry about the gpl3
11:46:59 <hylje> Gekkko: more like DRM'd linux kernel
11:47:17 <hylje> its open source, but you can't modify it
11:47:35 <Gekkko> geoff_k: one problem is GNU/Hurd is GNU's kernel
11:47:37 <Zr40> hylje: that's nonsense. If it's open-source, you can just remove the DRM parts.
11:47:39 <Gekkko> meaning it will be gpl3
11:47:45 <Gekkko> so if it goes all eww on us...
11:47:50 <Gekkko> we don't really have any place toog
11:48:03 <hylje> Zr40: if the drm parts are not in the kernel, but in the hardware, TCP / TiVo style..
11:48:06 <Gekkko> but if the kernel you have works, why change
11:48:42 <eekee> Zr40: I'm not seeing what difference the first draft has here... I got the impression Torvalds read a draft or more than one before writing, but I'm not certain. His statements were general, he doesn't like limiting users freedom, even their freedom to use DRM-capable apps if desired
11:49:20 <Zr40> eekee: I was referring to the current kernel license, pointing out the reasons for being GPLv2 *only*
11:50:04 <eekee> Zr40: yeah... I think we might have been talking slightly at cross-purposes, I'm sure it's not important
11:50:10 <Gekkko> I like how GPLv2 will stay valid even if GPLv3 comes into force
11:50:26 <Gekkko> is there a preamble that says that GPLv3 doesnt automatically cover GPLv2?
11:50:38 <Zr40> Gekkko: GPLv2 allows the choice of GPLv2 or any later version
11:51:10 <Gekkko> Isnt GPLv2 and v3 counted at seperate entities?
11:51:14 <eekee> Oh, my... oh heck, not a worry as such, but a teeny bit of a concern, is that the core GNU tools will disalow GPL2 use
11:51:19 <Biff> but some software is licensed under "GPLv2 or later"
11:51:25 <Biff> like some parts of the linux kernel
11:51:32 <Gekkko> eekee: I love to abuse my licence rights
11:51:38 <Gekkko> I plan to make GNU BSD
11:51:41 <Biff> which is why it will be very hard to get the linux-kernel to GPLv3
11:52:04 <Gekkko> the transition will take many years
11:52:08 <eekee> Biff: the standard GPLv2 explicitly includes a clause that any software licensed under this may also be used under the terms of a later version. That's the part Torvalds didnt' like
11:52:18 <Zr40> eekee: as Biff pointed out, that's not true
11:52:29 <eekee> Gekkko: I do every time I use the nvidia driver, mew
11:52:34 <Gekkko> eekee: I don't like that either
11:52:39 <Zr40> eekee: the GPLv2 *suggests* the option, but you have to explitly state 'or any later version'
11:52:47 <eekee> gods... *rereads the gplv2
11:53:10 <Gekkko> why dont they just cut that option out
11:53:33 <Biff> eekee: Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program
11:53:33 <Biff> specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any
11:53:33 <Biff> later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions
11:53:33 <Biff> either of that version or of any later version published by the Free
11:53:58 <Chris82> Peter1138 are you here?
11:54:01 <Zr40> Biff: I think the culprit is 'How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programs'
11:54:15 <Biff> i think about 40% of the linux kernel is licensed under GPLv2 or later
11:54:16 <Zr40> Biff: take a look at the fixed-width text, third paragraph
11:54:44 <eekee> Oh great! I'd been under the wrong impression for 10 years, hehe
11:54:59 <Zr40> This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
11:54:59 <Zr40> modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
11:54:59 <Zr40> as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
11:54:59 <Zr40> of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
11:55:08 <Biff> the problem is that alot of people have contributed to the linux kernel, and everyone has to agree to change the license
11:55:29 <Biff> Zr40: yup, thats a suggested text you use in your program
11:55:38 <Biff> but alot of programs doesnt use that
11:55:39 <Zr40> Biff: I guess most just copy/paste that
11:56:04 <Biff> true, but as i said, alot of the kernel is explicit version 2
11:56:18 <Zr40> Biff: actually, the whole kernel is v2-only
11:56:28 <Zr40> the LICENSE file states so
11:56:45 <Biff> the kernel as a whole is GPLv2
11:56:53 <Biff> but parts of the kernel is GPLv2 or later
11:57:06 <Zr40> then the kernel is in conflict with itself
11:57:21 <Zr40> licensing the whole as GPLv2-only removes the 'or later' option
11:57:31 <Biff> for instance if i submit a kernel patch and it gets accepted, it is my copyrighted work, which i license under for example GPLv2 or later
11:57:36 <Gekkko> that if you contribute, the leader is in control of what you submit
11:57:48 <Biff> Zr40: you can still extract the parts of the kernel which is GPLv2 or later
11:57:56 <Biff> the original writer still has copyright
11:58:09 <Biff> and only he can accept a change in license
11:58:23 <Biff> this is unlike GNU software, where you give ownership to GNU
11:58:35 <Biff> so GNU software can change license whenever they want
11:58:38 <Zr40> Biff: as I said, the kernel license conflicts with the GPLv2+ parts
11:59:36 <Ailure> ok this amuses me somehow
11:59:47 <Zr40> Ailure: I've had something similar.
11:59:54 <Zr40> Ailure: do you happen to be using Mac OS X?
12:01:19 <Ailure> what make you think I do?
12:01:31 <Zr40> because it happened to me there :)
12:01:55 <Ailure> the bug didn't happen to me
12:01:57 <Zr40> anyway, something went wrong with the standard grfs
12:02:05 <Ailure> I was just copying and pasting teh url from a thread
12:02:08 <Ailure> where that did happen to someone
12:02:19 <Zr40> deleting and replacing them solved it
12:02:33 <Zr40> they're actually the language icons in the server browser
12:03:03 <Gekkko> wheres the lines to show the land plots
12:03:30 <Ailure> people just go with the international icon when they create a server
12:04:11 <Ailure> Most of the time, people use the UK flag to signify English
12:05:02 <Gekkko> make an Australian flag
12:06:25 <Gekkko> try doing that in 12x24 pixels
12:06:43 <Gekkko> it's actually possible :o
12:06:50 <Gekkko> if i made it would it be implemented?
12:06:59 <Gekkko> or would they say "You're a minority!! GO AWAY"
12:10:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10235 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix: the 32bpp-anim blitter repainted pixel color 0, which is transparency and therefor should never be repainted (spotted by Rubidium)
12:10:12 <eekee> Hey is there a small-screen branch of openttd? I seem to recall seeing a screenshot of it on a PDA
12:12:35 <SmatZ> eekee: I saw that at some website, not at official ottd pages
12:12:53 <eekee> think? what is this word?
12:13:08 <Caemyr> this may turn into disease
12:13:09 <Gekkko> www.esoftinteractive.com
12:15:26 <eekee> Anyhow, my Palm's an m515, last of the PalmOS4 ones & a 16MHz Dragon CPU
12:16:38 <eekee> and.. my palm currently has 6.6MB of free space, hehe
12:17:21 <eekee> I think my non-essential expenditure this year is going to go on another Z or an iPaq
12:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> omg... what a load of crap in this backlog...
12:19:18 <Gekkko> eekee: Do not buy a PDA
12:20:36 * eekee facepalms "NEW NEW NEW!!!" "COME SEE, BUY NOW! YOU LIKE, VERY MUCH!"
12:21:52 *** [BiG^BrotheR] has joined #openttd
12:21:57 <Gekkko> I have no opinion on UMPC
12:22:40 <eekee> dude, I got my Z scratched & stuff, I paid US$150 for it iirc, and that was the going rate for one around it's condition! ;) I'm loon#king at the same price bracket again, or maybe a little higher, and I want something color that can run linux, so I'll be looking on ebay again
12:23:51 <eekee> I mean... I would go for one of those if I had the money, it's fun to get New Stuff, but.... heh
12:24:47 <Gekkko> eekee: I bought a Palm TX
12:25:03 <Gekkko> why? major indent in the screen.
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12:26:49 * eekee looks up clamshell Zs on ebay
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12:31:37 <eekee> PDA's more my thing. keep it in pocket, not lug around in bag
12:33:09 <eekee> ... which is how I lost my last Z :D Keys did a nasty on the screen under slight pressure
12:41:23 <Gekkko> my gameboy broke like that
12:41:40 <Gekkko> my farts are lethal tonight
12:48:19 <Rubidium> ooh, nice... Caemyr do you know when it's done?
12:48:29 <Gekkko> I don't think I'll want 0.7 with OpenTTD's own gfx
12:48:45 <Gekkko> make it an optional patch and I'm sold
12:48:58 <Gekkko> I had an idea how traffic could be implemented
12:49:17 <Rubidium> Gekkko: whole idea about own "gfx" is that OpenTTD come default working out-of-the-box, but that you can just use the old GRFs *if* you've got them
12:49:36 <Gekkko> would that work multiplayer too?
12:49:59 <Rubidium> as long as only the graphics change it would work perfectly in MP
12:50:43 <Gekkko> would the gfx be cheap and nasty?
12:50:59 <Maedhros> why would we want to distribute bad graphics?
12:51:13 <Rubidium> and who ever said that 0.7 will have it's own gfx?
12:53:05 <Rubidium> Caemyr: probably meant 0.7, anyway... the person who wrote that was just a random user who wanted that to be in 0.7
12:53:19 <Rubidium> and basically nobody has cared since to "fix" the 0.7 roadmap
12:53:59 <Caemyr> you just shattered all my hopes
13:02:09 * mikegrb adds control of real trains to the roadmap for 0.7
13:02:26 <mikegrb> and not piddly model trains either
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13:12:21 <Noldo> graphics are useless, let the users steal their own
13:13:59 * Gekkko puts hand up for high fiveness
13:16:29 <root> i should change my client
13:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> do not chat as root...
13:17:54 <SmatZ_> it was some default nickname
13:18:34 <Zr40> nicknames default to the username
13:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> as does the ident, which is still "root"
13:19:39 <SmatZ_> ok I am running at root account, you are right
13:20:03 <Zr40> SmatZ_: please create a user for yourself and log in as that, not as root
13:20:13 <Zr40> running KDE as root (or GNOME or anything) is dangerous
13:20:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> now... where did i put my IRC exploit list
13:21:39 <Zr40> Gekkko: 'or anything' :)
13:22:11 <Zr40> ...that falls under 'anything'
13:23:11 <Zr40> the only time you should be logged in as root is on the terminal, using su
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13:32:20 <UnderBuilder> jasper vs sergey... round 1... FIGHT
13:33:25 <Zr40> you're teasing about a feature, not graphics, right? :)
13:33:43 <UnderBuilder> I feel like a jasper but addicted to newindustries :(
13:33:51 <peter1138> UnderBuilder: where?
13:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... those buildings really do not fit into TTD...
13:34:02 <UnderBuilder> or multiplayer in TTDP
13:34:20 <Belugas> feature in progress, yes :)
13:34:25 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: i bet pikka's do :)
13:34:35 <Zr40> UnderBuilder: bleh, TTDP
13:35:05 <UnderBuilder> the jasper vs sergey fight is my idea :P
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13:36:00 <UnderBuilder> crazy things of the life...
13:36:28 <UnderBuilder> also I have a idea for a save game: jasper land
13:36:41 <peter1138> who cares about jasper
13:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> who the f... is jasper?
13:37:03 <UnderBuilder> ALL the map filled with highways, traffic lights and vehicles lol
13:37:16 <Belugas> Pikka has THE style :D
13:37:18 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: highway-troll
13:37:39 <peter1138> Belugas: mostly because it's nicked from the original graphics ;)
13:38:18 <UnderBuilder> I love that 4x(2x2) forest
13:38:25 <Belugas> his quarry is really nice, though
13:39:05 <Belugas> definitively not the same style ;)
13:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> such style-breaks can only be good if the complete graphics are replaced with that style
13:40:31 <peter1138> or just smart palette use?
13:41:17 <UnderBuilder> also my pc has some troubles with sounds
13:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't believe that is done with 255 colours
13:41:55 <UnderBuilder> it detects the input dispositive but not the output one
13:42:11 <Belugas> that was the ESCBasic sand quarry
13:42:18 <Belugas> and that was a mistake :)
13:43:23 <UnderBuilder> (sorry that is funny :P)
13:44:24 <Belugas> it was intended to be funny, UnderBuilder :) Although it took me two evening to figure out the errors...
13:45:08 <Belugas> just two? no...much more...
13:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> that sounded awfully schitzophrenic :)
13:47:29 <peter1138> one, two, many, lots
13:48:14 <hylje> one two three four five lotz
13:48:23 <hylje> orks count surprisingly well
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13:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually it was 3872 orcs...
13:54:57 <eekee> But my pixie spaceship's all broken & stuff!
13:57:04 <Caemyr> the quarry looks great
13:57:21 <Caemyr> even if it`s not the right style
13:57:25 * eekee flies around over the orcs scattering pixie dust
13:57:29 <Caemyr> the photorealistic one
14:00:14 <hylje> heh with newind we could have fantasy ttd
14:01:10 <eekee> dwarven mines are obvious... oh hey, balrog disaster
14:01:20 <hylje> then elves got elegant and fragile trains
14:01:26 <hylje> which carry just pax and stuff
14:01:51 <hylje> the little peoples make RVs
14:02:44 <eekee> that's a point, are there any, like, serious disasters in TTD? The worst seem to be the ufos, & they're not much
14:03:00 <hylje> ravaging demons appear rather fine
14:03:00 <eekee> or rather, would they be worth coding
14:13:14 *** [BiG^BrotheR] has joined #openttd
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14:21:14 <skidd13> In the wiki is something written about an opengl blitter... is it in trunk?
14:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it's only in peter1138 secret write only patch repository
14:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm pretty sure peter1138s patches used to be available online
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14:31:11 <Sug> I opened up a save in the scenario editor and whilst there i deleted a road crossing a rail, now the town owns the rail.
14:34:09 <Belugas> [10:20] <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it's only in peter1138 secret write only patch repository <-- Bermudas Triangle ! Everyting goes in, very few goes out ;)
14:36:51 <Digitalfox> I actually readed Belugas Triangle lol
14:38:22 <Sug> hmm, and I cant remove it at all
14:38:42 <glx> scenario editor is not intended to edit savegames
14:38:57 <Sug> well yea, but its possible
14:39:16 <glx> it 'removes' all player owned stuff
14:39:30 <Belugas> Digitalfox, not a good example of well written stuff :)
14:49:01 <dihedral> Sug: magic buldozer :-)
14:49:19 <Sug> doesnt work, like the canals thing
14:49:27 <Sug> just gone back to an older save
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16:05:41 <UnderBuilder> *bump* predict what revision will be implemented newindustries
16:06:23 <UnderBuilder> for me it will be r12345 :D
16:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> it gets backdated to r10000 ;p
16:07:00 <UnderBuilder> r32767 will be highways XD
16:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> is svn gonna crash afterwards? :p
16:07:46 <skidd13> shht, dont talk about highways, ... jasper could hear it.
16:08:19 <UnderBuilder> he can be one of ours!
16:08:29 * UnderBuilder points at Belugas
16:10:39 <Belugas> no predictions for newindustries. I can't even guess its completion myself :)
16:14:02 <UnderBuilder> it's only a game, calm down :)
16:14:28 <Belugas> i'm not upset, believe me :)
16:14:49 <Belugas> i would like to give a good estimate, but i'm really clueless
16:15:20 <UnderBuilder> I know that a prediction can be very very out of precision
16:15:34 <Belugas> "<I can't do any > predictions for newindustries."
16:16:07 <Belugas> it is, UnderBuilder. And i really would not want to give false hope
16:16:51 <Caemyr> we can always bet on it:P
16:18:03 <skidd13> like what is r10000 ;)
16:32:12 * dihedral is wondering if TrueBrain is around at all
16:34:32 <dihedral> does not look like it! :-(
16:37:25 <peter1138> Wolf01: heh, the 'tunnels' look nice there
16:37:34 <peter1138> the big round station build is way too large though
16:37:59 <skidd13> Hope theres inoculation against jasper-ague. ;)
16:39:08 <Wolf01> i thought about redesign some tunnels and stations for the tube project, to look like subterranean stations (to see under you must enable the transparency)
16:41:48 <Wolf01> but i don't know if i can draw over adjacent tiles, i mean drawing in width, i know is possible in height because there are skyscrapers
16:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> why would you need that?
16:43:38 <Wolf01> to link the roof of the station with the roof of the tunnel, over the tile with signals, if there is only one tile
16:45:40 <Wolf01> but i believe more in eyecandy objects and new map array, to be able to put trees along the railways and walls/roofs/fences
16:47:08 <Wolf01> but i think my idea was older than it, i started to think about it when the tube project was started, but only now i started to draw something :P
16:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> Wolf01: i'd rather approach it like a new "tube" railtype that has something drawn on top of it (similar to how catenary is drawn)
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17:06:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
17:06:44 <_42_> Bjarni, Sacro (Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM) was last seen quitting #openttd 14 hours 38 minutes ago (20.06. 02:28) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 1 hour 57 minutes there.
17:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> you're here for 10 seconds and already miss him :p
17:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> (yes, i know you got a message that he searched for you)
17:13:18 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
17:13:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> now see what you did :p
17:14:02 <Sacro|Laptop> me? i did nothing
17:14:39 * Sacro|Laptop fines Bjarni £100
17:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, i meant him, not you :p
17:14:52 <Bjarni> so I better harass you.... just in case
17:15:12 * Bjarni spotted Halle on a map today
17:15:22 <Bjarni> I knew where it was, but I found an old map
17:15:34 <Bjarni> a road map that's like 30-40 years old
17:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have maps of this area that are like 500 years old :)
17:17:42 <Bjarni> I know what the roadmaps of the Halle area from 5000 BC looks like :p
17:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah... like... empty :p
17:20:15 <Smoovious> and no left-turn lanes or signals
17:22:08 <XeryusTC> lol, the 3rd looks like a smiley :)
17:32:21 <colle> uhh, a police officer was just killed 400 m from my house :(
17:33:11 <oxygene_> where are you living, colle?
17:33:28 <oxygene_> i've expected new jersey or so
17:33:47 <colle> something like that is not supposed to happen here
17:34:11 <colle> one more is badly injured
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17:45:23 <Sacro> svn log $_svntrunk --limit 1 | grep -m 1 -o "r.*" | cut -d \| -f 1 | sed s@r@@g
17:45:32 <Sacro> is that the simpleist way of getting the revision number?
17:46:03 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2343
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17:48:27 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: i dunno, i'm doing an openttd-svn PKGBUILD for ArchLinux
17:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: isn't there stuff to get the revision number in the makefile?
17:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> why not reuse that?
17:49:27 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: i don't know
17:49:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> that was a rhethorical question :)
17:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> the makefile gets the revision number and branch name, and puts that into rev.c(pp)
17:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> i remember something about awk magic
17:51:19 <Sacro> svnversion $(SRC_DIR) | sed -n 's/.*\(M\).*/\1/p'
17:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's the modified flag
17:51:46 <Sacro> svn info $(SRC_DIR) | $(AWK) '/^URL:.*branches/ { split($$2, a, "/"); BRANCH="-"a[5] } /^Last Changed Rev:/ { REV="r"$$4"$(REV_MODIFIED)" } END { print REV BRANCH }'
17:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, that bit looks good
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17:54:01 <Sacro> i think i'll stick to the other one
17:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, it probably requires LC_ALL=C and stuff...
17:59:34 <Sacro> now... is there a way to get the latest nightly revision, without downloading svn
18:00:28 <TrueBrain> just pated it in an other channel :p
18:00:41 <Sacro> TrueBrain: thats quite awesome
18:00:54 <Sacro> i don't know if i can do that in the top of a PKGBUILD
18:01:13 <TrueBrain> else: svn info svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk
18:02:29 <Sacro> well until it hits the makedepends() bit, theres no guarantee that svn is available
18:03:01 <TrueBrain> then this is your only way in I guess :)
18:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> is there a guarantee that wget is available?
18:03:31 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: its part of the default base install
18:05:12 <Sacro> hmm, i guess i can use versionpkg rather than makepkg
18:07:02 <Sacro> i'm sure its svn://svn.openttd.org
18:08:42 <Sacro> do i need ./autogen.sh?
18:09:08 <Maedhros> considering there isn't one, no :p
18:09:56 <stillunknown> The "simple" task of splitting train controller into several smaller functions is not so simple ;-(
18:10:48 <Sacro> how do i make it use /usr/share/openttd-svn/* ?
18:11:54 <Maedhros> ./configure --prefix-dir=/usr --data-dir=share/openttd-svn etc.
18:12:55 <Sacro> is there a way to quickly rename the binary?
18:13:23 *** Alanin is now known as alanin
18:15:34 <Caemyr> click on in, two times
18:15:42 <Caemyr> and type the new name:P
18:16:50 <Maedhros> mv? i don't think you can do it with configure
18:18:00 <stillunknown> Caemyr: You're making assumptions, which you shouldn't.
18:18:21 <Caemyr> at least that`s quick:)
18:18:51 *** alanin is now known as Alanin
18:19:56 <Sacro> stillunknown: yes, gonna have to be mv
18:21:31 <valhallasw> (the repos directory, of course)
18:21:50 <Belugas> a little mammal linving in the trees :)
18:22:05 <Belugas> it has to do with NoAI, a script language, IIRC
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18:24:24 <Sacro> Unknown option --prefix=/usr
18:24:27 <Sacro> what a silly configure script
18:24:52 <Ailure> reminds me that I saw a discussion about openTTD in a random furry community I happened to stumble upon the other day
18:25:06 <Ailure> made me wonder how popular openttd actually is
18:25:11 <Sacro> so... who deals with the configure script?
18:25:52 <Ailure> especially since it wasn't much other talk abotu games
18:26:56 <Sacro> does make install work yet?
18:27:51 <Ailure> Maybe I make some furry newGRF one of thoose days :V
18:29:04 <Ailure> We're on the internet, get over it
18:29:39 <hylje> of internet subcultures' relations
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18:29:47 *** Wolfolo|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
18:29:50 <hylje> just about everyone thought they were better than furries
18:30:12 <Belugas> "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict" (Waters) 4:59
18:30:16 <Ailure> that graph kinda dind't work to me though
18:30:28 <Ailure> becuse I felt more like a computer geek than a furry on it
18:31:53 <Sacro> so... how does the new makefile work?
18:33:01 <Ailure> You put it into the microwave for eight minutes
18:33:33 <Bjarni> <Sacro> so... how does the new makefile work? <-- you get the new makefile and type make
18:33:43 <Ailure> hush before I make yiff.grf
18:33:44 <Sacro> Bjarni: yes, i've got it doing make now
18:33:44 <Bjarni> you get the makefile by running configure
18:33:56 <Sacro> and it generates it from Makefile.ln
18:34:13 <peter1138> 'yiff' : furries pretending that promiscuous gay underage sex is fluffy love
18:34:36 <Sacro> peter1138: you are most knowledgeable
18:34:56 <Belugas> he made that up, i'm sure:D
18:35:04 <Ailure> it was some fox greeting phrase at some MUCK
18:35:15 <Ailure> then it transformed into the infamous internet phrase as we know today
18:35:22 <peter1138> Sacro: of course, i learnt it all from you
18:35:58 <Bjarni> if peter1138 learned all he knows from Sacro, then peter1138's knowledge is NULL
18:36:00 <Sacro> openttd: /home/ben/Desktop/openttd-svn/src/trunk/src/openttd.cpp:107: void error(const char*, ...): Assertion `0' failed.
18:36:09 <Bjarni> somehow that's not right
18:36:33 <Bjarni> Sacro: that is for assigning NULL to peter1138 :P
18:36:34 <peter1138> Sacro: and the line *above* that?
18:36:55 <Sacro> cannot open "sample.cat"
18:37:04 <Ailure> Better not ask peter abotu stuff then
18:37:10 <peter1138> right with -d misc=4
18:37:15 <Bjarni> you should know how to add sample.cat
18:37:22 <Sacro> is there a make install now?
18:37:44 <stillunknown> Strange, debug level 3 should display symbols properly in gdb?
18:38:08 <Sacro> IS THERE A MAKE INSTALL?
18:39:08 <stillunknown> peter1138: So a bunch of ???? indicates crashing in an external library?
18:39:13 <Sacro> please can i request one
18:39:33 <peter1138> stillunknown: might be something fun like everything overflowing
18:39:44 <Sacro> otherwise i have to do it manually using install -m644
18:40:05 <peter1138> --prefix-dir=dir specifies the prefix for all installed
18:40:24 <Sacro> prefix-dir doesn't do what i need
18:40:40 <Sacro> hmmm, install-dir might
18:40:53 <TrueBrain> oh joy, he finally found the --help...
18:41:40 <peter1138> what did i have left to do for opengl?
18:41:58 <TrueBrain> peter1138: I was hoping nothing... ;) Yeah, one function: SetPixelIfEmpty ;0
18:42:52 <Sacro> make install actually works
18:43:00 <TrueBrain> oh no, we did something write!
18:44:06 <Sacro> except its using /usr/game rather than /usr/bin
18:44:26 <TrueBrain> hmm.. write? I should get some sleep...
18:47:33 <Bjarni> ln-: wow... who made this?
18:47:38 <Sacro> pretty soon, everyone with ArchLinux can play nightlies without needing to do much!
18:48:50 <Bjarni> however I know some people, who would have done this if they had access to hardware like that
18:51:25 <Bjarni> <Sacro> wow, it plays mario <-- also the tetris thingie
18:51:36 <Bjarni> it's in no way random what it plays
18:52:01 <Sacro> right... does my package install nciely
18:52:51 <Sacro> yay, i created a working svn PKGBUILD
18:53:26 <Sacro> i am so smart, i am so smart
18:54:37 <Ailure> Self-Monitoring, Analysis, and Reporting Technology?
18:54:52 <Ailure> Really fun when it's warns for immiedate HD crash
18:58:37 <Ailure> the compile farm starts spinning
18:59:03 <Ailure> r10234 truelight 2007-06-20 12:30:25 +0200 (Wed, 20 Jun 2007) 2 lines
18:59:03 <Ailure> -Fix r10233: make peter1138 happy
18:59:36 <Ailure> This is getting creepy. peter1138 is actually some bot ran in openTTD?
18:59:52 <hylje> ggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
19:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> > make peter1138 happy
19:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> make: *** [peter1138] Error 1
19:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> does not work...
19:07:29 <Sacro> Ailure: don't confuse me with fake commits
19:07:50 <peter1138> @openttd commit 10234
19:07:50 <DorpsGek> peter1138: Commit by truelight :: r10234 trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp (2007-06-20 10:30:25 UTC)
19:07:51 <DorpsGek> peter1138: -Fix r10233: make peter1138 happy
19:08:31 <dihedral> lets wais revisions shall we?
19:08:44 <peter1138> antialiased lines don't work too well :-(
19:11:13 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2349
19:12:47 <Belugas> kinda blurry, isn't it?
19:14:08 <Bjarni> <Sacro> i am so smart, i am so smart <-- smart enough to realise that it should be uppercase I?
19:14:22 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2350
19:17:12 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2351
19:17:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10236 /trunk/ (21 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Introduce a form of timetabling for vehicles.
19:18:49 <Maedhros> hmm, i'm going to have to write some documentation now, aren't i? ;)
19:20:03 * Wolf01 download and compiles, now
19:20:47 <lolman> I was in the middle of compiling when that update went up...damnit >_<
19:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:17:23: error: timetable.h: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
19:23:03 <Sacro> Bjarni: it's a simpsons quote
19:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> (saying "file not found")
19:23:33 <Bjarni> I have no satelite/cable channels aka I can't watch Simpsons
19:23:43 <Sacro> i think someone broke trunk
19:23:51 <Bjarni> so I shouldn't be blamed for not knowing everything about Simpsons
19:23:59 <Maedhros> i forgot to svn add them...
19:24:21 <Sacro> Maedhros: i'm sat here debugging an autobuild script
19:24:37 <Sacro> Maedhros: timetable.h :p
19:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: you do have internet, and you can buy DVDs :)
19:25:04 <Bjarni> why should I pay for it?
19:25:46 <stillunknown> Would there be interest in the seperation of the TrainController function, into more manageable blocks?
19:25:48 <dihedral> HD-PORN or Simpsons?
19:25:55 <Bjarni> <Sacro> HD-PORN :D <-- so downloading the Simpsons acts like porn for you??? I don't want to examine your mind >_<
19:26:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10237 /trunk/src/ (timetable.h timetable_cmd.cpp timetable_gui.cpp): -Fix (r10236): It helps if you use svn add with new files...
19:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> stillunknown: make vehicles into classes and unify the movement
19:27:06 <stillunknown> There has to be a beginning somewhere.
19:27:14 <stillunknown> It's NOT possible to do it all at once.
19:27:31 <stillunknown> Even splitting up the train controller was a non-trivial task.
19:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> sure... rm -rf * and start from scratch :)
19:27:55 <dihedral> just dont run that in /
19:28:15 <Bjarni> nobody claimed it to be trivial
19:28:38 <Wolf01> eh thank you Maedhros :D
19:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> compiling takes fooooreeeeeveeeeer...
19:29:04 <Wolf01> i was looking for what i could have break this time :P
19:29:32 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: nobody told you to compile on a 25 MHz system :P
19:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... now i have a new feature that i want to try out, but no useful savegame to start with...
19:30:24 <Wolf01> i have a savegame if you want, but it uses 16MB of grfs
19:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have a really old savegame, i try to remember what i did back then...
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19:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... resizing the window is totally buggy...
19:34:47 <Maedhros> really? it worked fine a while ago...
19:35:34 <Maedhros> hah, that's a bit special..
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19:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> the sticky button stays in place, and it only displays one line after i resized
19:36:31 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2353
19:36:59 <Wolf01> the vehicle is 69 days late :O
19:37:52 <Maedhros> yeah, you need to reset the late counter when the vehicle arrives at its first order
19:39:21 <Wolf01> an automatic clock should be usefull to make an average of the trip time
19:40:22 <Wolf01> something like, you start it at the first order, when it loops through the schedule and reaches again the first order it stops, so you have an approx time of the trip
19:40:41 <Wolf01> (from A to B, not A <-> B)
19:41:30 <Maedhros> can do. you can also set the timetable to 1 day, let the vehicle leave and then reset the late counter
19:41:47 <Maedhros> so you can see how late it is (minus 1 day) and that's how long the trip took
19:41:58 <Wolf01> ok, now it looks right: 189 days late
19:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> this *dingding* sound is driving me crazy...
19:45:25 <Bjarni> and you are telling me this now because?
19:46:00 <stillunknown> Forget it, i have developed a bad habit.
19:46:13 <stillunknown> One were i assume i already talked to you about it ;-)
19:46:45 <Bjarni> you lack self confidence to figure out if you are on the right track or not?
19:48:38 <stillunknown> I found in the past that trying to classify too much code, causes a mess, i am looking for opinions, but not necessarily from you.
19:49:29 <stillunknown> I am wondering if this is considered an improvement, in terms of style.
19:50:13 <boekabart> stillunknown: what does this patch do?
19:50:23 <stillunknown> Functionally, nothing.
19:50:38 <boekabart> i find the wormhole intrigueing
19:50:49 <stillunknown> It just a step in a (hopefully more sane) managing of vehicles.
19:51:14 <stillunknown> That wormhole has always been there.
19:51:22 <stillunknown> wormhole = bridge or tunnel
19:51:40 <boekabart> stillunknown: i figured so much
19:51:52 <boekabart> after reading better :)
19:52:31 *** Alanin is now known as alanin
19:54:45 <Maedhros> right, now to fix the resizing...
19:57:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10238 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix (r10236): Resizing the timetable window caused it to think it could only show one line at a time.
19:58:29 <Wolf01> Maedhros, the pin button is always in the same position when you resize
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19:59:04 * peter1138 experiments with it
19:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> i already reported that :)
20:00:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, the timetable window does not close together with the other windows (e.g. orders) when i close the train window
20:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> and it might be helpful if the current order is also shown in the timetable
20:01:36 <Maedhros> the timetable window not closing is deliberate
20:02:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10239 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix (r10236): The pin button didn't move when resizing the timetable gui.
20:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it's kinda inconsistent
20:04:14 <Maedhros> svn commit stat whoring++
20:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> it might be better to change the behaviour of the old windows, though
20:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i never liked e.g. the orders window closing if i open the details window
20:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> are vehicles gonna wait at stations/waypoints if they are early?
20:06:33 <Maedhros> stations yes, waypoints no
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20:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, so i need to set up waiting stations for freight trains, in order to let express trains overtake...
20:13:01 <Maedhros> yes. waiting at waypoints would cause havoc, imho
20:13:14 <Maedhros> and you can use the bare ground tiles from newstations anyway :)
20:13:26 <peter1138> but: to stop it waiting at waypoints, you just don't specify a time, no?
20:16:08 <peter1138> i don't know how it interacts with the travel part
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20:21:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> what's funny is that this savegame actually was loaded with the proper newgrfs, although i thought it was really ancient (pre-newstations even)
20:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> i believe i started it with the elrails branch
20:22:16 <ln-_> do you think the vehicles are too unsafe?
20:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> what kind of unsafe?
20:26:32 <ln-> if there's a collision, it's a 100% chance you die.
20:26:59 <ln-> every time every single passenger + drivers of both vehicles die.
20:37:15 <Phazorx> ln-: these who did not get killed by impact die from shame of being employed by your company
20:39:56 <Sacro> Maedhros: i need some kind of system for telling roughly how long to get from one station to another
20:40:19 <peter1138> i was wondering that too :o
20:40:40 <peter1138> it's a bit... guess work, atm
20:42:27 <Maedhros> yeah. like i said, one way of doing it is to set the timetable to 1 day (or tick), then reset the late counter after the vehicle has left the station
20:42:36 <Maedhros> how late it is will tell you how long it took to get there
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20:43:41 <Sacro> Maedhros: but that takes a whole cycle of the route to do
20:44:05 <Sacro> can it not calculate the manhatten distance
20:44:14 <Sacro> to give you a rough estimate
20:44:23 <Maedhros> if your railway is straight and flat, then maybe
20:44:55 <Sacro> its only an estimate based on a straight flat route
20:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> you could have the pathfinder return the length
20:46:17 <dihedral> i need the pathfinder to get me to bed
20:49:47 <Sacro> how do you stop it from deleting your grf list?
20:50:01 <Sacro> i add them to ~/.openttd-svn/openttd,cfg
20:50:10 <Sacro> and it deletes them all
20:50:32 <peter1138> a "waiting time" indicator would be nice
20:50:48 <Sacro> along with the loading %age
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20:56:33 <Sacro> ls -o standard/*.grf | awk '{print $7}'
20:56:34 <colle> it seems to delete the grf-entries for the files it doesn't find
20:56:41 <Sacro> i'm sure theres a more efficient way
20:57:58 <Sacro> though i figured out awk!
21:04:12 <Bjarni> how do I make an ssh connection and tell it to use my current x11 display as display?
21:04:41 <Hendikins> ssh -X to enable X11 forwarding, and it should be smart enough to do the rest.
21:04:43 <Bjarni> I keep getting "unble to open display", which is kind of uncool
21:05:26 <skidd13> Is the x over ssh serversided enabled?
21:06:34 <colle> check what the $DISPLAY variable is set to
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21:08:44 <Bjarni> but it's kind of slow :s
21:09:55 <Bjarni> I guess opening an ssh connection though an ssh connection would be kind of slow, but I can't access the server directly (firewall setup)
21:10:06 <Bjarni> people are so paranoid
21:12:30 <Bjarni> now I have spent 4 minutes opening a text file and it's still not ready
21:16:39 <Bjarni> weird. Now it's much faster
21:16:54 <Bjarni> it feels almost like working locally
21:17:15 <Bjarni> ahh the nice randomness of internet lag :p
21:19:10 <stillunknown> Does anyone know why some changes (when doing svn up) are ignored and simply treated as inverse local copy changes?
21:20:09 <stillunknown> It usually happens in modified files, but does not generate conflicts.
21:21:26 <Bjarni> control+c isn't undo :p
21:22:46 <Bjarni> stillunknown: when updating, if you have local modifications, it will keep those. If they are like the update, they aren't local modifications anymore (naturally)... id that what you meant or something else?
21:23:51 <stillunknown> If a trunk revision adds: int foo = 1;
21:24:07 <stillunknown> Sometimes it doesn't add that and svn diff shows -int foo = 1;
21:24:46 * Bjarni think he just found a bug (but not in OTTD)
21:25:12 <Bjarni> when copy pasting in nedit, it reads it as control+c and it closes the app
21:28:19 <skidd13> started from an xterm?
21:28:49 <Bjarni> any known workarounds for this issue?
21:29:11 <skidd13> ctrl+c is AFAIK the term signal for the current running process.
21:29:28 <eekee> funny, nedit should be able to override ctrl-c iirc. I /theenk/ vi does.
21:29:32 <Bjarni> but it's also copy in nedit >_<
21:30:23 <eekee> yeah that's a bug in nedit, it shuld be blocking it.
21:32:13 <Bjarni> it doesn't appear to have easy access to hotkey setup
21:36:18 <Bjarni> control-v kills it as well
21:37:18 <skidd13> man xterm -> modifyFunctionKeys
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21:40:49 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o peter1138
21:40:49 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v orudge
21:41:14 <Bjarni> I have no idea what I should do with it though :p
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21:47:42 <stillunknown> Now i know what caused my problem, i probably forgot to reload a file and saved the old one.
21:49:27 <skidd13> you can modify the ressources of the xterm in ~/.Xdefaults eg XTerm*modifyFunctionKeys: -1 and all ctrl, etc signal catching from xterm is gone. As far as I understand then manual right.
22:02:05 <Bjarni> <stillunknown> Now i know what caused my problem, i probably forgot to reload a file and saved the old one. <-- use a client that can figure out that the file is changed ;)
22:02:22 <Bjarni> fuck, now I have another problem
22:02:35 <Bjarni> my | hotkeys are mapped to something else in nedit
22:02:46 <Bjarni> and since I still can't copy paste....
22:04:50 <Bjarni> how to reload .Xdefaults without logging out and in again?
22:05:12 <skidd13> tried to start a new xterm?
22:06:12 <Bjarni> looks like it didn't like my modification
22:06:25 <Bjarni> ohh, it just lagged big time
22:13:09 <Bjarni> bahh, I can't get copy pasting to work
22:13:33 <Bjarni> however I can open pico to add the two || I need... talk about lame workaround
22:13:56 <Bjarni> on the other hand, pico lacks symtax highlighting and line numbers
22:16:03 * Sacro writes a securom patch for openttd
22:20:17 <Bjarni> YOU will write a patch?
22:21:48 <skidd13> What about a keyboard GUI for PDA's or NintendoDS?
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22:28:46 <Bjarni> skidd13: the PSP porter took some PSP thingie to add keys. Basically it's a 3x3 fields where you select one. Each of them then contains 4 (or was it 8) letters. This allows writing with only direction keys if needed
22:29:16 <Bjarni> naturally we should not make OpenTTD depend on 3rd party PSP libs for all ports, but the idea appeared sane
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22:31:00 <skidd13> Damn it's late here. night
22:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's only 0:30... the night barely began
22:31:53 <Bjarni> I plan on having some more working code when I show up tomorrow
22:32:05 <Bjarni> and the other guys will gaze at the svn log xD
22:32:23 <Bjarni> the time stamps and the added functions
22:32:42 <Bjarni> last time that happened was the 6:15 commit Sunday morning
22:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> that can't happen today :p
22:33:30 * Bjarni wonders if he will be asked "don't you ever sleep" tomorrow
22:33:40 <MarkMc> It's 12:33AM here to :)
22:34:37 <Bjarni> btw I already coded one functionality we had declared "we can't make it in time" and in time would be before Friday, so I feel pretty good about this
22:35:39 <Smoovious> what' the functionality??
22:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> but you have to think about the functionality you skipped in the mean time
22:36:07 <Bjarni> it's some robot driving based on sensor input
22:39:37 <Smoovious> oh, real-world stuff?
22:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> not real world... he was talking about robots and sensors... :p
22:40:21 <Smoovious> the kind of stuff they had those full-scale cross-country autonomous races for?
22:40:32 <Bjarni> but it's real world stuff to make it avoid driving into walls xD
22:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> Smoovious: this is not america, we have smaller scale presentations here in europe :p
22:41:24 <Smoovious> um... the competitors weren't all americans... .. .
22:41:40 <Bjarni> <Smoovious> the kind of stuff they had those full-scale cross-country autonomous races for? <-- basically yes. We use the same gates and stuff as the annual competition at uni
22:42:00 <Smoovious> that's quite cool, Bjarni...
22:42:02 <Bjarni> a competition that sometimes include teams from other countries
22:43:02 <Smoovious> watching the extended coverage of the races was one of the most interesting things I've had a chance to check out in the past few years... only wish I was able to be part of one of the teams. :)
22:43:47 <Bjarni> <Smoovious> that's quite cool, Bjarni... <-- I know... and the cool part is that my code (mainly my code) can actually reach finish by now (deadline is Friday). Now I just have to make it not take the easy shortcuts so I can get more points, but it can reach the goal, which is a victory in itself :D
22:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's probably easy... just study some fancy branch of robotics :p
22:44:57 <Smoovious> dealing with obstacles efficiently is one of the hardest things...
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22:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> "easy" is always from my point of view :)
22:45:11 <Bjarni> well, actually it didn't actually enter the goal... it reached it and the battery died like 10 cm from it because he had made test runs all day... then it had to recharge all night :(
22:45:25 <Bjarni> now that looked silly... o_O
22:45:57 <Bjarni> it really died... I mean it started rebooting when I plugged in the external power
22:45:58 <Smoovious> what's the vehicle/team's name?
22:46:24 <Bjarni> should we have a name?
22:46:39 <Bjarni> it's not some official competition, just some internal stuff
22:46:40 <Smoovious> why not... it is much better than talking about "those guys"
22:47:02 <Bjarni> located between group no. 2 and group no. 4
22:47:06 <Smoovious> hmm... a little dry... needs something... .. .
22:47:23 <Bjarni> it fits the numbers on the tables
22:47:36 <Bjarni> I like how the tables are numbered with 0 indexes :D
22:47:55 <Bjarni> usually real life numbering starts with 1, but in this case, it starts with 0
22:48:07 <Bjarni> there is also a robot numbered 0
22:48:34 <Smoovious> used to watch those battlebot shows... got dissapointed quick cuz they were basically just doing remote-control... not real 'bots... but kept watching cuz of the carnage... now if they really were 'bots... that would have been excellent
22:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> q.e.d. it is not real life
22:49:44 <Smoovious> RC vehicles on steroids
22:50:53 <Bjarni> I once saw one of those battles... it was funny, but in an unintentional way. Some robot had a circular saw as the only weapon. It was too light to push the other robot, so it really only had the saw. When it hit the other robot, the force of the saw as so little that it just stopped instead of damaging the other one. Then it tried to make a run for it and attack with great speed because that increased saw speed.... then it fell off
22:51:32 <Bjarni> sounds like poor testing to me
22:52:02 <Smoovious> hahaha... I think I know which one you mean
22:52:31 <Bjarni> however I don't like the whole idea of damaging other robots
22:52:33 <Smoovious> the silliest one I think was this guy that basically made a facetted snake...
22:52:40 <Bjarni> they spent ages building them
22:55:41 <Bjarni> I was told about a competition where two robots had to pick up balls (or something), so they were two on the field at once. They headed for each other, so they tried to stop, but one of them got so close to the other one that the distance sensors entered their blind distance, so the other robot was gone in the input, so it speeded up again and they crashed.... one came out of it (the blinded one) and it learned where it was after th
22:55:41 <Bjarni> e accident so it did ok afterwards... the other one didn't realised that it had a push, so it was turned and acted like it was still heading in the same direction so it didn't do anything sane after that
22:55:46 <Bjarni> but it really was an accident
22:56:57 <Smoovious> yeah, I see some of those too...
22:57:46 <Bjarni> but they can be damn tricky to deal with
22:57:51 <Smoovious> actually had a team from my old high school in one... was cool... never had anything like that going on when I was still a student
22:58:15 <Bjarni> you had a robot in high school???
22:58:23 <Bjarni> did it do your homework?
22:59:23 <Smoovious> no, I didn't... tech wasn't where it is now... but I was digging into computers a lot then... ~1980... I would have had a lot to offer to a robotics team... :)
23:00:44 <Bjarni> I like how the inside of our robot works... it's a micro ATX motherboard with a flash for HD and stuff running linux and the sensors, engine controllers and stuff are connected to the com ports
23:00:56 <Bjarni> which means that it can do what you expect of linux to do
23:01:09 <Smoovious> back before computers were cool, much less mainstream... as far as I knew, I was the only one in the school who had a modem, much less an internet email
23:01:48 <Bjarni> reminds me of the C64 days.... I had a computer... they didn't
23:01:49 <Smoovious> have you tried using any basic stamps to control some things and just report states to the motherboard?
23:02:34 <Smoovious> yeah... first one I owned was a CoCo-ii... took it apart, tweaked the circuitry... upgrading the ram needed a soldering iron...
23:02:54 <Smoovious> before then, I was using a dumbterm/teletype with a few timeshare accounts
23:04:59 <Bjarni> hehe.. I remember when at school we had to see something really special... it was a computer, that was able to talk to computers in other towns using the phone lines, so we had a bus trip to another town to enter a really special room. It had like 8 computers or so and then we could pass into the nearby room with the really special computer where you put the normal phone on top of some device and then it could transmit text :o
23:05:14 <Smoovious> I used a handful of them to automate the layout of a model railroad club I used to be in
23:06:04 <Bjarni> so basically the class spent a whole day travelling to another town, seeing a computer with a modem, watching a specially trained person sending an email and then go home again
23:06:07 <Smoovious> acoustic modem? (I started on one of those... only 75bps)
23:06:17 <Bjarni> yeah, something like that
23:07:03 <Smoovious> I mostly used a DecWriter-ii... trying to download a program formatted to 132cols when you only have 80col paper sucks. :D
23:22:57 <_42_> Sacro, Bjarni (~Bjarni@0x50c79adc.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) was last seen quitting #openttd.wt2 3 minutes ago (20.06. 23:19) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 6 hours 12 minutes there.
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