IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-05-31
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00:10:15 *** glx|away is now known as glx
00:13:14 <Sacro|Laptop> any french/german speakers in here?
00:13:54 <Sacro|Laptop> mine is a bit rusty
00:13:58 <Sacro|Laptop> what is "Where is?"
00:14:02 <Belugas> two french for you serviec
00:14:21 <Sacro|Laptop> my housemate is going to switzerland tommorow, and she knows no french or german
00:14:28 <Belugas> "donde es" in spanish
00:14:46 <Sacro|Laptop> Belugas: yes, cos she might need to speak spanish
00:14:49 <glx> hmm they speak italian there IIRC
00:15:08 <Sacro|Laptop> glx: don't confuse us :p
00:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> swiss people are likely to know at least 4 languages :p
00:15:50 <Belugas> well... maybe yo could offer her an electronic translator :)
00:15:56 <Sacro|Laptop> Eddi|zuHause2: will one of them be english?
00:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> english probably, chinese less likely :p
00:16:26 <Belugas> anyway, english is understood about anywhere in the world...
00:16:37 <Sacro|Laptop> Eddi|zuHause2: "Where is" auf deautsch?
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00:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> swiss people speak a totally weird dialect of german anyway :p
00:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> 's way worse than the austrian and bavarian dialects :p
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00:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> the dialect is called "Hochalemannisch", or more commonly "Switzerdütsch"
00:23:08 * Sacro|Laptop considers going to Europe
00:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> from a european's view, you are already in europe
00:23:54 <Sacro|Laptop> yes, but from an English person's point of view, we aren't
00:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> europe is everything from iceland to the kaukasus
00:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, i should sleep... have to get up early
00:26:24 <Sacro|Laptop> it's hardly Europe stuck on this crappy island
00:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> even if you reduce europe to the european union, you're still in europe
00:27:33 <Belugas> yeah european continent
00:27:43 <Belugas> in the geographical way
00:27:50 <Sacro|Laptop> we usually class Europe as the mainland
00:27:56 <Sacro|Laptop> ie not England or Iceland
00:31:01 <glx> but your not in euro zone :)
00:37:15 <Sacro|Laptop> oh, we don't want the euro
00:37:40 <Belugas> yeah, you'd better off with american dollars :D
00:37:51 <Sacro|Laptop> the dollar is sinking qite badly
00:38:14 <Belugas> ho...that is why the canadian $ is so high :D
00:38:52 <Sacro|Laptop> its about £2 to the dollar
00:38:59 <Sacro|Laptop> its nice for importing stuff
00:39:31 <Sacro|Laptop> jasper is back on irc
00:40:16 <Belugas> far from it, glx :) can$ is waaaaaaay more cute ;)
00:41:01 <Sacro|Laptop> its like monopoly money
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01:00:28 <Jerub> I'm loving how the us dollar is going.
01:00:40 <Jerub> I just did a thinkgeek order, and I'm considering an amazon order.
01:03:14 <_Mist_> yeah, it's never been cheaper
01:03:25 <_Mist_> well, not for as long as I've been alive, that is :P
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02:13:46 <vofflan> Can someone send me a config with a server running without slope penalty?
02:13:49 <vofflan> i cant get it to work :|
02:14:06 <Digitalfox> oh, that i can't help.. :(
02:14:12 <glx> realistic_acceleration on
02:14:34 <glx> realistic_acceleration = true in openttd.cfg
02:15:02 <vofflan> how the hell does that work?
02:15:14 <vofflan> Well thank you anyway :P
02:16:29 <Digitalfox> good night everyone
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03:35:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r9994 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Codechange: Add pointers for Industry and Industry Tiles in the grf file.
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07:21:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9995 /trunk/src/genworld.cpp: -Fix (r9962): Don't scroll the map at the start of a new game
07:22:09 <wboekabart> morning peter1138 ;)
07:22:17 <wboekabart> good way to start the day
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07:34:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9996 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Fix: be more strict when building/upgrading roads and/or road stops.
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07:36:07 <boekabart> gettin' reaaaally close
07:36:43 <Rubidium> 0.6 isn't really that close
07:37:28 <valhallasw> I wonder what kind of function you could fit between revision and full version *grin*
07:38:41 <Vikthor> Hi boekabart. I told Marek about your interest in aging tracks, did he contact you?
07:42:36 <boekabart> Vikthor: Yes he did!
07:42:46 <boekabart> but also Ben_K is trying something out
07:43:01 <boekabart> I hope to find some time today or tomorrow to try some coding
07:44:29 <Vikthor> Wonderfull, I am looking forward to what will come out of this ;)
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09:54:11 <Luukland> Frostregen__ you are welcome :)
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11:35:06 <Sionide> i said day before yest, that i was gonna translate ottd into lolcode :p
11:35:32 <boekabart> IZ TRAIN EMPTY NOWAI!
11:36:11 <Bjarni> maybe toyland could do with a lolcode addon
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12:36:22 <eekee> script languages... What if ottd had embedded script interpreters, but a different language for each region?
12:36:42 <eekee> Java for tropical (more than one reason...)
12:37:48 <eekee> I dunno whether Python should be for temperate because it was named after Mony Python - British; or Northern because it was (iirc) designed originally by a scandinavian
12:39:40 <Maedhros> i'd forgotten how slow the very early dbsetxl engines are...
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12:42:00 * eekee googles dbsetxl -- "ooh, propper hoppers"
12:42:38 <Maedhros> just very very slow to begin with ;)
12:44:00 <peter1138> although, the BR75s are out nwo
12:44:43 <eekee> same speed as the... um... little 060 from the temperate region, right? I use them all through my game when I can, because they can turn a profit on lines so short that nothing else can, lol
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12:47:55 <eekee> I usually play with "vehicles never expire" on, and just use whatever engine seems appropriate for each route, anyone else here play like that?
12:48:56 * boekabart still didn't find out how to easily replace an old engine by a more modern replacement
12:49:49 <eekee> boekabart: scrap the engine (just the engine) & build the new one. It will come up with the same number & orders
12:50:16 <eekee> (Goes all the way back to TTD or TTO, that ^^)
12:50:50 <boekabart> eekee: yeah that's not what I call easy... if you have 80 trains slowly expiring one by one
12:51:14 <eekee> I think there's something in the global train list...
12:51:47 <eekee> I also think I saw an upgrade button somewhere in the debot window, but not sure
12:51:47 <boekabart> i hear there is something, never really searched.
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12:58:48 <iPandaMojo> Yeah, there is a mass replace interface
12:59:16 <iPandaMojo> It'll send them to depot automatically for you and everything
13:00:22 <iPandaMojo> At the top UI bar, there's a train icon --- clicking it brings up a list of your traints
13:01:01 <boekabart> iPandaMojo: and then?
13:01:04 <iPandaMojo> Select "replace vehicles" from the dropdown next to the "Manage list" button to bring up the replace UI.
13:01:20 <iPandaMojo> (e.g. the little down arrow)
13:01:31 <boekabart> thanks, I'll try that when next opportunity. I've been too lazy to look for it I guess.
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13:38:45 <hylje> now if we could have graceful borderpieces
13:38:52 <hylje> it would be most perfect
13:39:39 <boekabart> I guess if the sprites were a bit bigger
13:39:56 <boekabart> extending into the next/previous graciously... that would work, right?
13:40:41 <hylje> it could and should start right away but a bushy border would be nice looking
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14:16:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r9997 /trunk/src/lang/ (american.txt french.txt):
14:16:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-05-31 16:16:13
14:16:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: american - 30 fixed by WhiteRabbit (30)
14:16:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changed by glx (1)
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14:29:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9998 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r9990): possible null pointer dereferences on MorphOS.
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14:54:20 <clb> could someone give me a hand? I built openttd on winxp/vs80 successfully but I suppose I'm missing something since when I try to run the game using my .exe, it complains about not being able to load any .grf -files. any ideas?
14:54:41 <Touqen> Did you put the .grf files in the right location?
14:55:15 <clb> I tried copying the .exe from the Release folder to the same directory where the openttd.exe resides in the latest release, openttd-0.5.2-win32.zip
14:56:12 <clb> so the .grf's were in .\data\ relative to the exe, and I also tried putting the .grf's in the same directory as the exe, but no luck
14:56:30 <Touqen> And your configuration file is correct?
14:56:42 <clb> it just starts with 'Your 'openttd.grf' file is corrupted or missing!'
14:57:11 <Touqen> clb: How are you starting it?
14:57:21 <clb> I have openttd.cfg file in the same directory as the exe, and if I run the original openttd.exe from the 0.5.2 release, it starts fine
14:57:33 <clb> directly from explorer, i.e. not in VS80
14:58:30 <Touqen> When you downloaded the sources from SVN, it should have included all that stuff in the directories that it gets built into and should be using that version of the files, not the ones from the lastest stable.
14:59:19 <clb> ah ok, so it seeks differently relative to the .exe with the latest stable?
14:59:21 <peter1138> the grfs in trunk are different from those in 0.5.2
15:00:29 <clb> ah ok, I'll try the svn data files out and see how it goes
15:00:42 <Touqen> clb: That's why nightlies don't include "just" the binary, but they include other stuff too.
15:11:16 <clb> ok now, then doing the same feat in linux.. I first run ./configure which goes through fine, then make, which also succeeds, and finally when I run the binary, it just returns to prompt immediately without any warning whatsoever.
15:13:54 <Iron> why is that that i have a coal mine which i transport coal from but i can only achieve that 69% of coal is transported, while i run 3 trains on the line, 1 train always waiting at the station to load up (they're set up to full load)
15:14:10 <Iron> and my rating on the station is high, 82%
15:14:43 <Iron> oh damn, wait, nevermind
15:15:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9999 /trunk/ (12 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: make it possible to disallow busses and lorries to go a specific way on straight pieces of road.
15:17:53 <izhirahider> Who's the milestoner? :)
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15:22:33 <clb> is there a way to build the binary in linux with some verbose/debug output so I could track why it would be failing?
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15:27:26 <skidd13> Is there a way to convert a SpriteID to Sprite?
15:28:19 <Rubidium> SpriteID is something completely different than a Sprite
15:30:13 <Wolf01> about r10k, I bet on Belugas for newindustries :D
15:30:22 <skidd13> GetSprite is what I was looking for. Thanks.
15:31:30 <lolman> Just another rev then?
15:32:12 <boekabart> well prep for it i think
15:32:18 <Wolf01> you might be so evil to make a void revision for 10k
15:33:41 <Rubidium> svn log -r HEAD:10000 svn://svn.openttd.org
15:33:43 <boekabart> someone or something did
15:34:14 <clb> well I got the dedicated server running, but other than that, it won't do anything in client mode at all.
15:36:05 <Wolf01> i'm so sad i might be going home when r10k happens :(
15:36:15 <boekabart> Wolf01: IT HAS HAPPENED
15:36:30 <boekabart> it's an empty void commit by no-one
15:36:38 <boekabart> someone had that all planned
15:36:46 <boekabart> or it's an SVN feature
15:37:01 <boekabart> heh, the betting starts again
15:37:15 <boekabart> Wolf01: (5:33:11 PM) Rubidium: svn log -r HEAD:10000 svn://svn.openttd.org
15:37:35 <lolman> r10000 | (no author) | (no date) | 1 line
15:38:58 <peter1138> wait, i'm not Born_Acorn...
15:41:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10001 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp table/build_industry.h): -Codechange: Add support for removing dynamically allocated newgrf data
15:41:25 <nairan> like someone worte they left it out
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15:43:22 <Wolf01> i must keep silence next time :P
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15:58:00 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 10000
15:58:01 <_42_> Commit by rubidium :: r10000 (none) (2007-05-31 15:16:44 UTC)
15:58:14 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 10001
15:58:15 <_42_> Commit by belugas :: r10001 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp table/build_industry.h) (2007-05-31 15:40:36 UTC)
15:58:17 <_42_> -Codechange: Add support for removing dynamically allocated newgrf data
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15:59:01 <UndernotBuilder> Rubidium fooled all :D
15:59:23 <UndernotBuilder> oh, and I didn't know that was possible to commit a empty revision
15:59:52 <boekabart> Rubidium: so it WAS you after all
16:00:16 <UndernotBuilder> so... mr. X wins
16:00:46 <Belugas> UndernotBuilder : it was not en ampty revision :) it has stuff, believe me.
16:01:17 <Ailure> most of the revisions in a school project i'm in
16:01:26 <Ailure> since we're too lazy commenting what we did
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16:02:32 <UndernotBuilder> so the nearest guess was the mr.x one:
16:02:34 <UndernotBuilder> Or just skip 10k and go from r9999 just to r10001.
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16:15:10 <ledow> Just popped in to say... Thanks Rubidium for the one-way roads. :-)
16:16:41 <_42_> Maedhros: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advsertise) communication (outbound)
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16:27:00 <Sacro> why can't one way roads have junctions?
16:27:58 <Sacro> and why can't you convert a 1 way to 2 way automatically?
16:28:09 <Wolf01> because you must set the flag in the pieces after and before the junction
16:28:36 <boekabart> like rails, you set the sign somewhere on the road
16:28:51 <boekabart> around the crossings or in the middle
16:28:56 <Rubidium> ttdpatch pretends to support it on junctions, but it doesn't work on junctions
16:29:18 <Rubidium> *and* making it work properly on junctions would require 4 times as much bits
16:29:28 <Wolf01> and i like it as it is
16:29:56 <Sacro> though it'd be better if there was an "autoconvert to 2 way if needed" switch
16:30:06 <hylje> its not like road junctions use a load of bits?
16:30:28 <Wolf01> and now i must find a way to get the main title scroll bugfree
16:30:43 <Rubidium> hylje: are you really sure about that?
16:31:33 <Sacro> when you drag over a one way street with one way the other way, bad things happen
16:32:21 <peter1138> "Can't build road here..."
16:32:27 <Sacro> holding ctrl shouldn't toggle the status
16:32:30 <peter1138> should be "Can't make road one-way here..." or something
16:32:36 <Sacro> ctrl should be always one way
16:33:17 <Rubidium> Sacro: and how to make a unaccessible road and/or remove onewayness?
16:33:51 <Sacro> i keep overlaying roads and losing the one-way-ness
16:34:22 <boekabart> it should works the same as railway signals imho, interface wise
16:36:22 <Sacro> and depots should convert the road peice in front
16:36:33 <Wolf01> and this time in trunk
16:37:41 <Wolf01> to replicate it: build a road depot in the middle of nothing, purchase a vehicle, start the vehicle
16:37:59 <Wolf01> asserts something on road type
16:39:39 <Wolf01> GetRoadTileType(t) == ROAD_TILE_NORMAL
16:42:37 <Sacro> road_map.h:163: DisallowedRoadDirections GetDisallowedRoadDirections(TileIndex): Assertion `GetRoadTileType(t) == ROAD_TILE_NORMAL' failed.
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16:47:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10002 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9999): don't try to get the disallowed directions from a road depot...
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16:48:11 <Rubidium> boekabart: just be patient
16:50:43 <Wolf01> peter1138, somebody recalled to my mind that i have some improvements for the transparent options, do you want some of them in separate patches?
16:53:21 * boekabart had too much coffee today
16:56:14 <Progman> placing a one-way road vertical to an existing road build a junction, this should be rejected imo
17:00:18 <Progman> wait a moment, slicing the screenshots...
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17:05:35 <Progman> so, imo it shouldn't build a junction if you try to build a one-way road vertical to an existing road
17:06:44 <Progman> Noldo: green arrows on the 3. image
17:07:10 <boekabart> Are fast vehicles supposed to overtake slow ones?
17:07:31 <hylje> now we need crazy road pathfinder caching
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17:07:39 <hylje> so we could have crazy amounts of rvs
17:07:40 <boekabart> but slow down a lot while passing
17:09:26 <Progman> ouu, overtake can be dangerous, if the miss a drive (if you have high-ways) ;)
17:09:53 <boekabart> i just built a highway
17:10:03 <boekabart> and the fast busses do overtake the 56 kmh lorries
17:10:10 <boekabart> but slow down to 50 first
17:10:15 <boekabart> like women passing on a highway
17:10:32 <hylje> how do you pass someone at -6km/h speed difference
17:10:45 <boekabart> then accelerate and overtake
17:10:46 <Noldo> boekabart: tell them they don't have to
17:10:56 <boekabart> Noldo: easier sais than done :)
17:11:00 <Progman> but it looks cool anyway
17:11:34 <boekabart> i think RVs accelerate slower than trains in ottd :(
17:12:06 <boekabart> hylje: also less tonnes
17:12:19 <boekabart> all RVs accelerate faster than trains
17:12:36 <hylje> irl trains are underpowered :-)
17:12:45 <boekabart> no, rv's are overpowered
17:12:52 <boekabart> who needs to hit 60mph in 5 secs?
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17:15:14 <Wolf01> peter1138, are you there?
17:17:04 <Progman> Rubidium: you get what I mean?
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17:18:53 <Rubidium> yes, now I do... but I wonder whether it is really wanted because adding this warning would mean you cannot make one big one way road through (other) crossing roads
17:21:39 <Progman> ou, you can hold and drag
17:22:06 <hylje> when 1way roads are ready
17:22:21 <hylje> someone patch town AI to upgrade "mainline" streets to 2 tile
17:22:34 <boekabart> hold/drag: you can, but it cancels the first one if you do it like on rails
17:23:29 <Rubidium> boekabart: you do not make any sense
17:24:17 <hylje> welcome to the club it seems
17:24:39 <Progman> one-way doesn't work for trams, do it?
17:25:34 <boekabart> Rubidium: Here goes. I build a 'one way' arrow, ok.
17:25:38 <Sacro> yeah... just route them round in a circle
17:25:46 <Sacro> they can't turn around on their own can they?
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17:25:53 <boekabart> then with ctrl, I drag from there along the road
17:26:06 <boekabart> the whole drag'area becomes oneway, but the initial tile loses its arrow
17:26:53 <Rubidium> that's because these work a little different
17:27:07 <boekabart> Rubidium: to be honest... I think I'd be easier for most users if the UI for oneway would work more like the signal ui
17:27:09 <Rubidium> you 'toggle' the one way status
17:27:28 <boekabart> the clicking on the right side of the road with the right direction just made the lack of autoroad worse imho
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17:27:53 <boekabart> a rotate, left, right, block, free would be user-friendlier I think?
17:28:13 <boekabart> with a separate button like the signal button
17:30:34 <boekabart> i like the feature though, just built a cloverleaf for cars
17:30:54 <boekabart> to bad cars don't seem to pass on bridges
17:32:10 <boekabart> Rubidium: the worst is the 'blocked road' sign, since it IS linked to a direction but you cannot see it
17:32:25 <Rubidium> boekabart: if you can get proper graphics for both autoroad and the signal stuff (maybe even some roadside stop boards?)
17:32:42 <Rubidium> boekabart: why can't you see the blocked road sign?
17:32:58 <Rubidium> aren't those arrows clear enough?
17:33:01 <boekabart> i see it, but not the direction (NW or SE) it's linked to
17:33:18 <boekabart> i click SE, then middle, i have a block
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17:33:33 <boekabart> but cannot change it to NW from there, only back to SW
17:33:54 <Rubidium> you can; just ctrl click on the sw part
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17:34:22 <boekabart> no, it changes back to SW
17:34:59 <Rubidium> then you (probably) fail in clicking properly, because it works for me
17:36:22 <Progman> but is a little bit confusing as you click on SW on a blocked tile and the NE arrow appears (as logical as you 'remove' the SW-one-way-info)
17:36:40 <boekabart> click on the place where you DONT want it
17:37:01 <Rubidium> you click on the place where you want to toggle the oneway-status of
17:37:14 <Rubidium> and the red thing means that both are "on"
17:37:17 <Sacro> which isn't very intuitive
17:37:38 <Sacro> boekabart: yes... but it takes some headscratching
17:38:04 <boekabart> basically you place a "don't enter here" sign
17:38:10 <Sacro> err... thats 2 way then
17:38:19 <Sacro> should be a both-no-way
17:38:31 <boekabart> then the gfx should be smth red, not green :)
17:38:51 <boekabart> i mean the other one :)
17:39:19 <boekabart> Rubidium: I guess there is no place for 1-way signs on bridge heads, is there?
17:40:16 <Rubidium> technically there is place
17:41:10 <Rubidium> but you say CTRL click cycling is "easier" to understand?
17:41:32 <boekabart> actually, placing them like rail signals
17:41:43 <Rubidium> when you do it like signals and you "place" these "one way signs" on the road, you won't see them as the normal signals are "allow both dirs"
17:41:50 <boekabart> i see the button icon already: the one way sign :)
17:42:01 <Rubidium> boekabart: that's not a button
17:42:37 <boekabart> i mean: as in 'the universal one-way sign', the red O with the white -
17:43:07 <boekabart> Rubidium: yes, so the 4 'signal' states you cycle through are left, right, none, open
17:43:18 <boekabart> open beiing without gfx
17:43:35 <Rubidium> but what should the "default" (first) state be?
17:43:39 <boekabart> if you want me to, i can have a go at it
17:44:32 <boekabart> (open) -> north, south, closed -> open
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17:44:54 <Rubidium> boekabart: you can try to do it, but do it properly
17:45:58 <Sacro> nooo, just disable the toggle mode
17:46:04 <Sacro> i like up dragging and down dragging
17:46:18 <Sacro> but make it OR 1 with ctrl
17:46:47 <boekabart> Sacro: but why drag, you need the sign only once on the road
17:47:00 <Sacro> boekabart: you have to drag for the road anyway
17:47:59 <boekabart> Sacro: I don't see a good reason why to do it different than for rail
17:48:07 <boekabart> just out of symmetry
17:49:01 <Sacro> just get rid of the damn toggle
17:52:09 <Progman> as you use half-tiles for road-builds
17:52:28 <Progman> so these fits the road-build style
17:53:32 <Sacro> we can do pretty road junctions now
17:55:12 <TrueBrain> boekabart: how is that a problem?
17:55:12 <boekabart> so you need to make em a bit bigger, at least 1 tile between the small and big loop with a sign, like Progman has.
17:55:33 <Sacro> cos you can't have one way over a junction
17:55:41 <boekabart> TrueBrain: Try doing that on a real freeway.
17:55:49 <Sacro> or one way on bridges :o
17:55:54 <TrueBrain> good you never saw me drive :)
17:56:04 <Sacro> TrueBrain: at least you save petrol
17:56:10 <boekabart> a solution is to remove the inner loops, and make the outer ones 2 way
17:56:16 <TrueBrain> so one-way doesn't work on bridges? :)
17:56:20 <boekabart> you can't pass on those outer loops in real life anyway
17:56:27 <boekabart> TrueBrain: you can't place the signs
17:57:00 <Sacro> hylje: you alright there?
17:57:11 <Sacro> methinks he may have figured out r9999
17:57:23 <TrueBrain> I like how Rubidium describe things :)
17:57:33 <boekabart> 1 thing is sure: the one way roads is going to cause a whole lot of traffic on the forums I think
17:57:33 <Sacro> TrueBrain: it made me think for a second
17:57:48 <Sacro> boekabart: but at least the traffic is now controllable
17:57:59 <Sacro> can you have 2 vehicles side by side in a stop yet?
17:58:04 <boekabart> Sacro: I'm very much FOR one way roads, that's not the thing
17:58:05 <Sionide> if you start putting one way rounds into towns, you can muck up the AI's buses
17:58:15 <boekabart> Sionide: You need to own the roads
17:58:22 * Sionide hasn't played with it yet
17:58:27 * Sacro builds a level crossing and claims the road
17:58:32 <Sacro> actually, that got fixed D:
17:58:39 <Sacro> i liked that trick in tto
17:59:03 <boekabart> there is the same thing with trams now :)
17:59:58 <Progman> trams follow the same mechanic?
18:00:14 <Progman> (don't have one atm.)
18:00:37 <Rubidium> boekabart: what are you talking about?
18:01:51 <scia> :O openttd: /home/scia/openttd/trunk/src/road_map.h:22: RoadTileType GetRoadTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_STREET)' failed.
18:02:43 <hylje> heh trams can collide with RVs without problems
18:03:02 <boekabart> doh: on a one way signed road, cannot make a tram cross/juntion/curve
18:03:35 <Rubidium> boekabart: that sounds like an issue
18:03:48 <boekabart> Rubidium: sorry: tramways can cross, but not junction
18:04:02 <boekabart> Rubidium: and can't turn
18:04:05 <scia> and sent a vehicle over it
18:04:26 <scia> the bridge is not connected to a road on the other side so it should reverse
18:05:30 <boekabart> Rubidium: but: if I have a tram turning into a straight road, and want to add a one way sign to it, i can
18:06:09 <Rubidium> boekabart: as I said, that's a "problem"; tram tracks shouldn't care about onewayness
18:06:15 <boekabart> same for a tram junction on straight road
18:06:35 <boekabart> so, bug is in tramway building code, too many checks?
18:06:58 <Rubidium> well, rather not enough checks ;)
18:08:21 <boekabart> Anyway, trams on a one way street aren't a good idea since they will drive the wrong way :)
18:12:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10003 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9999): crash when vehicle had to turn on a bridge.
18:12:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10004 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix: trams can always intersect/have junctions on one way roads (because they only work for busses and lorries).
18:13:03 <boekabart> Rubidium: you fast one you
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18:24:03 <Zr40> Rubidium: could you get FS#104 committed? :)
18:26:38 <peter1138> only if it's rewritten
18:28:52 <Noldo> oh my, autosaving 2k*2k map takes some time
18:29:46 <Thomas[NL]> I get the same error scia had :
18:29:47 <Thomas[NL]> openttd: /home/thomas/openttd/src/road_map.h:22: RoadTileType GetRoadTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_STREET)' failed.
18:29:47 <Thomas[NL]> Aborted (core dumped)
18:31:25 <Thomas[NL]> I made a nice high-road clover-leaf and sended some vehicles over it
18:32:17 <Unaimed> Is there a simple way to display a window ingame? (from the code, something like alert("text");)
18:35:30 <Unaimed> If that doesn't work, how do you print a line to the console?
18:37:44 <Maedhros> Noldo: the fact that it's possible doesn't mean it must be easy ;)
18:41:15 <Unaimed> IConsolePrint prints to the console
18:43:05 <Noldo> I'm disapointed, None Industries doesn't stop them from being founded
18:43:17 <Zr40> that only applies to map generation
18:43:31 <Zr40> you could want an empty map, so that you can place industries yourself
18:45:35 <Noldo> but you could also want none
18:45:42 <Zr40> then don't create them :)
18:46:23 <Noldo> yes, but random founding of new ones wasn't wat I wanted
18:47:22 <boekabart> Noldo: You want the 'founding industries during game-time' function to take the # of industries settings into account?
18:47:33 <boekabart> .. sounds fair enough
18:47:37 <Belugas> Noldo, there is no patch settings to stop the industries to be funded while ingame
18:48:11 <Belugas> the only way for yu to do it is wait until newindustries is done and create your own grf that disable them all
18:50:01 <Noldo> But there are many nice new features added since I played last time
19:00:50 <Noldo> What do the vehicle groups do?
19:02:07 <Wolf01> groups the vehicles for easy handle them
19:03:19 <Noldo> what does that button near ceterline do?
19:05:31 <Zr40> peter1138: what needs to be rewritten?
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19:14:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10005 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Merge two flags (2cc and newhouses) indicating some newgrf features have been loaded, and introduce the newindustry one.
19:20:48 <Wolf01> boekabart, i really like your patches :D
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19:49:13 <UndernotBuilder> a question: the .net framework installer is requesting me microsoft installer 3.0 do anyone know what is the name of the installer of the last one so I search it?
19:50:04 <UndernotBuilder> no, that downloads with it WGA and that will catch me
19:50:28 <Sionide> it's that rubbish program that lets you install from .msi files
19:50:43 <UndernotBuilder> but I can install .msi files :S
19:50:58 <graeme> just go to microsoft website and search for installer, you can download it
19:51:03 <Sionide> i don't know anything about windows
19:51:10 <Wolf01> yes if you have the required framework version
19:52:31 <UndernotBuilder> because I remember some time ago being able to install .net fw but now don't
19:52:48 <UndernotBuilder> but in that moment I have upgraded to sp2
19:53:56 <Wolf01> then that installer required the framework 1.0, maybe now it requires the 2.0 and is available the 3.0 to install
19:54:41 <Wolf01> just download autopatcher xp and you shouldn't have problems of wga
19:56:17 <graeme> i did it a few weeks ago
19:56:42 <graeme> ahh, og yeah. where did i get it from then?
19:56:52 <graeme> its available somewhere
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20:09:40 * dihedral appreciates the work all the devs do...
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20:15:09 *** boekabart is now known as wboekabart
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20:19:15 <UndernotBuilder> whats the status of high water?
20:21:08 <kaan> i think the tide is about to turn :P
20:22:26 * Touqen throws kaan and his puns in the garbage.
20:22:27 <kaan> ok, il ladmit that was bad
20:23:15 <kaan> ok then, ill admit that it was really bad
20:23:16 <UndernotBuilder> If jasperthecat1 looks into the revision 10000 topic and looks into the new feature, he will go berserker!
20:23:36 <Bjarni> however right now I can't think of anything worse though :p
20:23:57 <kaan> you are right, i cant think of anything worse
20:25:09 <kaan> so now we have established that i hold the record for the wors humor here :)
20:26:17 <Sacro> UndernotBuilder: he's found IRC
20:26:41 <Sacro> yeah, he has been in #tycoon on quakenet
20:26:51 <UndernotBuilder> one time I did a joke and named myself jasperthecat1
20:27:09 <UndernotBuilder> but better not make it remember to Rubidium :)
20:35:53 <Sacro> TrueBrain: there's no way i can get a passport in 6 days :p
20:36:22 <Rubidium> Sacro: go to the airport and tell that you lost it and need it badly
20:36:36 <Sacro> need what? to go to the netherlands?
20:36:50 <Rubidium> that passport ofcourse
20:37:15 <Sionide> go to the passport office, queue up and get one done on the day...
20:37:23 <Sionide> course you can get one in 6 days... easy.
20:40:34 <Frostregen__> hmm, would be 461km
20:40:41 *** Frostregen__ is now known as Frostregen
20:41:31 <Frostregen> but...a reason to go to netherlands, besides dope ;)
20:42:16 <peter1138> why do you need a passport to travel within europe these days?
20:42:19 <peter1138> oh yes, terrorism...
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20:43:03 <Zr40> peter1138: what would you need to travel in the USA?
20:49:02 <ln-> flights about 700 euros on this short notice, ... i think that's a bit much.
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20:50:33 <ln-> or even below 400 on another company, but still a bit expensiveish.
20:51:34 <Sacro> i think i can get the ferry from Hull to somewhere
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21:18:01 <Sacro> hmm £108 for a same day passport
21:20:18 <Touqen> Heh. Same day passports. It takes weeks to get a passport in the US.
21:20:38 * orudge isn't sure he quite wants to go on a drive in foreignland just yet, though
21:21:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10006 /trunk/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Fix (FS#362): allow different signal types on one tile
21:21:32 <Sacro> orudge: you'd go via hull?
21:22:09 <orudge> Sacro: Google would send me via Dover
21:22:14 * Rubidium waits for glx' image
21:22:25 <Sacro> orudge: strange. i'd go down to Hull, then over to Rotterdam
21:22:41 <orudge> Google evidently doesn't know the Hull route
21:23:01 * orudge tries doing it manually
21:23:16 <orudge> it still sends me via England
21:24:40 <Sacro> that seems a longer route
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21:25:06 <orudge> £271 return with a car
21:25:13 <orudge> with this one web site
21:25:16 <orudge> from Hull to Rotterdam
21:25:56 <orudge> driving would be hypothetically possible, but at such short notice, and without any experience driving on the right
21:26:01 <orudge> The Dutchies should come to us ;0
21:26:48 <Bjarni> <orudge> ... without any experience driving on the right <-- that's actually a minor issue if you are mentally prepared for it
21:26:54 <orudge> I imagine it won't be too bad
21:26:58 <Bjarni> I mean I wouldn't mind driving in the left side
21:27:09 <orudge> I've been "driven" on the right, in the US and Canada
21:27:13 <orudge> and I'm sure it wouldn't be too bad
21:27:16 <orudge> just a bit unnerving at first I guess
21:27:45 <Bjarni> just remember that you have to go the other way around the roundabouts ;)
21:28:36 <Bjarni> that's actually an issue
21:29:24 <Bjarni> people are prepared to drive in the other side (compared to what they are used to), but they aren't prepared to go the other way around roundabouts for some reason
21:29:31 <Bjarni> many accidents happens that way
21:29:31 <orudge> Mmh, yes, roundabouts and suchlike would be fun
21:29:34 <Sacro> my dad got crashed into by a danish firetruck
21:29:58 <orudge> why would a Danish fire truck be here?
21:30:03 <Bjarni> wtf would a Danish firetruck do in Hull?
21:30:03 <Sacro> orudge: there was a convention
21:31:00 <Bjarni> firetrucks are used to other cars moving out of the way
21:31:13 <Sacro> it didn't have its siren on
21:31:24 <Sacro> it scuffed up on the roundabout and hit him
21:31:52 <Bjarni> I guess he just left the ferry
21:32:05 <Bjarni> could be his first British roundabout
21:32:18 <Sacro> no, he was going back to the ferry
21:33:38 * Bjarni remembers when he was driving a car with the wheel in the "wrong" side
21:33:56 <Bjarni> it took a bit to get used to switching gear with the other arm
21:33:57 <Sacro> the wheel should be on the right
21:34:08 <Sacro> and change gears with the left hand
21:35:14 <Bjarni> actually driving in the right side makes more sense because then the hand brake and gear are controlled by the right arm
21:35:58 <orudge> but the right hand is dominant
21:36:01 <orudge> so that would be preferrable, would it not?
21:36:37 <orudge> [22:35:14] <Bjarni> actually driving in the right side makes more sense because then the hand brake and gear are controlled by the right arm
21:36:46 <orudge> when you're driving on the right side of the car, you control the gears, etc, with your left arm...
21:36:57 <Sacro> orudge: you don't have to
21:37:12 <orudge> Remind me not to be in the car if you're using your other arm :p
21:37:33 <Bjarni> I meant right side of the road
21:37:39 <Bjarni> so you are in the left side of the car
21:37:59 <ln-> the left hand is for holding the cell phone, the right one for tuning the radio. questions?
21:38:12 <Bjarni> Trains has the same issue, but it's more severe because when driving in the right, the driver is in the right (to see signals) and in order not to hit the fireman, the fireman would be on the left. Shoveling coal when standing in the left makes him hold the shovel right for righthanded people
21:38:42 <Bjarni> ln-: yeah... where is your 3rd arm to control the air condition?
21:39:02 <glx> the left hand to open the window :)
21:39:19 <Bjarni> when a train is driving in the left side, the driver is in the left, the fireman is in the right and has to hold the shovel like a left handed person
21:39:33 <Bjarni> so it really matters which side steam locomotives drive in
21:39:56 *** Osai^2 is now known as Osai
21:40:10 <glx> locomotives drive on left side here
21:40:16 * Bjarni tried left hand coal shoveling
21:41:10 <Bjarni> yeah, I know several countries uses left side driving for their railroads... I don't know why though
21:41:41 <Bjarni> since the only reason to pick a side is the placement of the fireman and that would tell the railroads to use the right hand side
21:42:24 <Bjarni> so I guess it could be a random pick by engineers, who never planned on staying on a locomotive and didn't care for the engine crew
21:43:28 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
21:43:51 <Bjarni> well, today it doesn't matter if a train drives on the left or right side as the )%(%#€%(€ railroads fired all the firemen
21:45:50 <glx> firemen are not needed in electric loco
21:47:32 <Bjarni> funny enough they are needed for electric engines, but not diesel o_O
21:48:08 <Bjarni> the heating steam boiler on diesel engines burns diesel fuel, but I don't know who adds water to it as needed
21:49:53 <ln-> london underground drives on the right, and i think normal trains too.
21:50:33 <mikegrb> hmmm speaking of fire trucks we had an engine here that was on the way to a motor vehicle accident with extrication they rolled the truck
21:50:43 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
21:50:47 <mikegrb> they ended up having to be extricated!
21:50:58 <mikegrb> their tools were on the drivers side which was in the air
21:51:08 <mikegrb> so their own tools were used to cut them out!
21:54:26 * stillunknown wonders why train collision checking is still done every tick
21:54:48 <Bjarni> reminds me of the story. Almost all the firemen were gathered to a party and one of the few, who wasn't there came running in and yelled "the fire station is on fire!!!". They laughed because they thought it was a joke, but it turned out that he was repairing a broken diesel pump and it leaked diesel on to the floor and his tools created a spark.... they had to send firetrucks from another town and when they arrived, it was too late
21:54:54 <Rubidium> maybe because they could collide every tick?
21:55:54 <stillunknown> At the expense of two bits per tile, it can be greatly reduced.
21:55:55 <Bjarni> imagine if it was a day event thing. Then theoretically two trains could pass each other if they are short and they were driving fast enough
21:56:51 <mikegrb> yeah, there was an artile in one of the firefighter magazines about a station somewhere in .us about 8 months back
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21:57:05 <mikegrb> on the way back to their station they got dispatched to a smoke in the area call
21:57:07 <Bjarni> mikegrb: it was in Denmark and it was years ago
21:57:21 <Jerub> stillunknown: two trains can travel through a tile and not hit each other..
21:57:41 <stillunknown> Bjarni: On tileentry activate a bit, disable when leaving.
21:57:47 <mikegrb> as they got closer they reported that the smoke seemed to becoming from very near their station
21:58:00 <mikegrb> then dispatch got the automatic fire alarm
21:58:00 <stillunknown> Once a second train enters, activate the second bit, the check each tick for collisions.
21:58:07 <mikegrb> Bjarni: different incident ;)
21:58:38 <Rubidium> stillunknown: and when there are 3 trains on one tile?
21:58:49 <Moriarty> The world generator seems very broken in nightly 10002
21:58:56 <Jerub> stillunknown: that way you have to iterate over everh tile to find the tiles with two bits set.
21:59:16 <Jerub> stillunknown: that's a much harder operation than iterating over each train you know..
21:59:19 <Bjarni> two on bits could indicate "more than one" and turning off the 2nd one would need to verify that the tile only contains one train
21:59:23 <Moriarty> i.e. the OTTD hangs - Both terragenesis or Original break.
21:59:34 <Jerub> (with 2 bits you can count to 3)
22:00:24 <Bjarni> <Jerub> stillunknown: that way you have to iterate over everh tile to find the tiles with two bits set. <-- no. For the train, if v->tile(both set) {check for collision();}
22:00:36 <Rubidium> Jerub: but there can be up to 4 trains on a single tile
22:01:02 <stillunknown> I once did a less than perfect implementation, to see if it gave the desired performance improvement.
22:01:05 <staniel|desktop> how can there be 4?
22:01:29 <Jerub> Bjarni: okay... but you'd still have to iterate over all the other trains to see which one it could be.
22:01:48 <glx> I can see 3 with bridges, but where is the fourth?
22:01:52 <Jerub> Rubidium: come to think of it, if yoi were really clever, I reckon you could get 5 or 6 :)
22:02:08 <staniel|desktop> ahh, maybe tunnels?
22:02:15 <Rubidium> rail tiles with 2 pieces of track in the upper/lower or left/right
22:02:17 <Bjarni> <Jerub> Bjarni: okay... but you'd still have to iterate over all the other trains to see which one it could be. <-- yeah, but it can skip all the trains that are on tiles with only one train (that's usually most of them)
22:02:24 <Jerub> well, you can quite easily arrange a 4 way head on.
22:02:30 <Rubidium> and two trains on each side
22:02:34 <Jerub> X some track, send 4 trains in to meet in the middle.
22:03:01 <stillunknown> But the penalty for 3 or more trains, will not occur often.
22:03:07 <Bjarni> <stillunknown> I once did a less than perfect implementation, to see if it gave the desired performance improvement. <-- and what did the profiling tell you?
22:03:23 <stillunknown> It went down the list a long way.
22:03:46 <stillunknown> Forgot the exact numbers.
22:04:04 <Jerub> 5 is easy, you park a MJS250 in the middle...
22:04:17 <Jerub> dunno how easy 6 would be...
22:04:57 <Bjarni> sure the collision detection is used more rarely, but did you include the checking and setting of the bits in your benchmark? We want this to be a overall speed improvement ;)
22:05:02 <Rubidium> first park 4 trains on the left, right, top and bottom track pieces, then let a 4 way head on occur ;)
22:05:12 <stillunknown> Bjarni: actually i had trouble finding it in the profiling
22:06:00 <Jerub> Rubidium: you can make it a 5 way by planting a MJS250 in the dead center first :)
22:06:28 <stillunknown> But in real life, how often would you have more than 2 trains on a tile?
22:06:45 <Rubidium> only when you crash trains
22:06:50 <Jerub> stillunknown: usually in collisions...
22:07:56 <stillunknown> So the penalty for iterating over all trains is probably small, compared to checking collisions each tick.
22:08:13 <Bjarni> I like the idea of having a train counter. 2 bits would tell "0, 1, 2, more than 2". Special actions would take place in the last case
22:08:15 <stillunknown> (in the case of 3 or more trains)
22:08:59 <Bjarni> 3 trains or more is so rare that we don't have to optimise that case. 1 or 2 happens often enough to optimise those
22:09:35 <Bjarni> now the question is: can we find two bits that's always free on all rail tiles?
22:10:17 <stillunknown> bit 2 and 3 for example
22:13:58 <Moriarty> [23:01:01] Moriarty: The world generator seems very broken in nightly 10002
22:13:58 <Moriarty> i.e. OTTD hangs - Both terragenesis and Original break.
22:14:23 <Moriarty> Hmmm - Definately broken here - winxp
22:14:51 <Moriarty> It shows funny things too - the mouse cursor looks like a grass tile
22:15:15 <Moriarty> A snow tile even - it changed at least once when I just tested it.
22:15:50 <Bjarni> stillunknown: well, this idea looks really interesting. I didn't benchmark the collision detection. How severe is the CPU usage for it right now?
22:15:56 <Moriarty> Hmm - turns out it was a grf (the snow in temporate grf)
22:16:14 <Moriarty> Worked fine with the previous copy of OTTD I used (can't recall rev - deleted now)
22:17:10 <stillunknown> Bjarni: I haven't run openttd in a while, but looking at the code (which seems the same), it's safe to say that for a train only network it's one of the top consumers.
22:18:41 <stillunknown> I just happened to get a flyspray mail about a patch i once submitted, and suddenly remembered this.
22:21:45 <Bjarni> are you up to do some performance tests so we can get some real numbers to decide if it's worth 2 bits?
22:21:57 <stillunknown> I wrote this back then:
22:21:58 <stillunknown> Under normal curcomstances the CheckTrainCollision() function is not called, testing suggest quite an improvement (60% vs 50% cpu usage on a map with 900-1000 trains).
22:23:11 <stillunknown> But i have to go to bed now, i will set up up for some tests when i have the time.
22:23:22 <glx> we need a real performance comparison, using the same savegame for a long run
22:23:41 <stillunknown> I used the same savegame.
22:23:55 <Bjarni> for the same period of time?
22:24:37 <stillunknown> Yes, i watched the cpu beheaviour in top, because it would fluctuate initially iirc.
22:24:56 <stillunknown> But i really must sleep now ;-)
22:25:26 <glx> cpu usage in top is not a real comparison I think
22:25:59 <stillunknown> Profiling (and debugging) has one issue, it adds overhead, which has scale issues.
22:26:20 <stillunknown> I wanted to know the actual effect on a game as well.
22:26:29 <stillunknown> really gone now.
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23:14:59 <Sacro> thoguh Bjarni isn't actually dutch
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23:32:23 <Bjarni> Sacro: that depends... if you don't block the road for anybody, then yes
23:33:00 <Bjarni> it's not particular safe traffic to do so xD
23:33:41 <Sionide> the next big thing in ottd is gonna be road traffic
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