IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-05-25
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00:25:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r9915 /branches/noai/ (160 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk -r9815:9914
01:26:37 <Jerub> coworker is leaving us to go work on a pleasure yaught that gets chartered for 490k/week.
01:27:03 <Jerub> I'm lucky to get 49k/year from my sea craft. I wonder if we could introduce pleasure liners to openttd :)
01:27:23 <Jerub> you get more money the longer they stay at sea :p
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06:14:27 <Jerub> mikk36: what's cooking?
06:14:49 <XeryusTC> the thing you do when you want to eat and dont order pizza :P
06:19:56 <staniel> mmm that would be lasagna
06:20:06 <staniel> only 40 minutes till my late night snack is ready
06:21:19 <staniel> and not just any lasagna, its my mommas
06:21:50 <staniel> 22 and my mommy still takes good care of me
06:23:01 <XeryusTC> although i would have kicked you out of the house by 20 :P
06:23:26 <staniel> oh, I was out when I was 18
06:23:45 <staniel> she just loves me that much to send me home with lasagna's, cookies... you name it, I get it
06:24:04 <Jerub> My parents only just kicked out my 30 year old brother for the second time.
06:25:49 <staniel> christ, If I brought a girl to my parents im sure my mom would even provide the condoms
06:31:25 <mikk36> Jerub. matrox g400 is so weak that i can't even run openttd at decend frame rates :(
06:31:57 <staniel> XeryusTC: I fear the day that I take a girl home
06:32:07 <staniel> I don't date them long enough to so far :D
06:33:02 <Jerub> staniel: When I was your age I'd been married for 3 years.
06:33:14 <staniel> sorry to hear that :P
06:33:17 <mikk36> and how old is staniel ?
06:34:48 <Jerub> I should probably start building my own binaries. :)
06:40:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9916 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Free memory used by cargo translation tables
06:46:48 <Touqen> the client does it for you
06:47:03 <Touqen> depending on what you use
06:47:33 <Touqen> I think tortise will send anonymous if you don't specify one
06:47:50 <Touqen> Though I very well could be talking out of my ass.
06:49:53 <Jerub> So why is it listed? :)
06:50:07 <Touqen> In the event that you do get prompted for it
06:50:10 <Jerub> Interesting, the days in transit in economy.cpp is a byte.
06:50:14 <Jerub> I wonder if it overflows..
06:53:55 <Jerub> oh, it;s actually an array of two unsigned ints in another place. yow
06:57:54 <peter1138> would you like some bolognaise with that?
06:59:35 <Jerub> I actually understand what's going on now :)
06:59:56 <Jerub> no, it's a byte that doesn't overflow, it maxes out at 255. After cargo gets that old it doesn't get any older.
07:00:13 <Jerub> so there's no difference between 1 year and 2 for the time it takes to deliver goods.
07:00:46 <Jerub> Ontick_Train is making me curious though.
07:01:19 <Jerub> Cargo only ages one Tick in 184..
07:06:14 <peter1138> yeah, not really train related
07:09:00 <peter1138> of course, there are 74 ticks in a day
07:09:06 <peter1138> so where 184 comes from i don't know
07:09:20 <peter1138> possible a typo of 148, which would be 2 days
07:09:33 <Jerub> uh, relevent lines are train_cmd.cpp:3382:void Train_Tick(Vehicle *v)
07:09:58 <Jerub> train_cmd.cpp:2046:void OnTick_Train()
07:10:00 <peter1138> but it's not *just* for trains
07:10:12 <peter1138> that var affects all the other vehicles too
07:10:22 <peter1138> so OnTick_Train, with it's single line, is... dumb
07:12:28 <Jerub> so this means that cargo ages two days at a time, so it can get up to 512 days old.
07:13:01 <Jerub> except it doesn't, it ages 2.5 days at a time, which is 640 days.
07:13:32 <Jerub> So that ternary is quite obviously a bug, but the question I have to ask now is: is it worth fixing?
07:16:21 <Jerub> It does change the economic model, and it's something that's /always/ been broken. r1
07:18:11 <peter1138> probably cargo_days is just named incorrectly ;p
07:25:27 <Jerub> at the very least it's 2 days, and is currently 2.5 days.
07:25:36 <Jerub> any idea how I'd go further back in time than r1?
07:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> the same way you observe events before the big bang
07:27:05 <Jerub> oh, okay, so r1 was the release from the sweedish uberhackers, right. :)
07:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually no, there was an svn before, but it crashed, so the history was lost
07:28:43 <Jerub> I just want to find out if 184 was once 148.
07:29:17 <Rubidium> take the first source from SF
07:32:01 <peter1138> you could always redisassemble ttd...
07:32:17 <peter1138> the cargo payment graph doesn't make much sense either
07:32:32 <Jerub> The more I read this the more it scares me.
07:32:43 <Touqen> Try messing with Yapf.
07:32:46 <Touqen> If you want a scare :D
07:32:59 <Jerub> at least YAPF wasn't decompiled.
07:33:20 <Jerub> If I understand this right, then the cargo payment graph is a fuctiohl
07:33:47 <peter1138> it's approximately days / 1.6, but not quite ;p
07:34:10 <Jerub> The way cargo payment rates are calculated is:
07:34:31 <Jerub> rate * dist * f * num_pieces
07:35:59 <Jerub> How do I find out what CargoSpec->transit_days is for a particular cargo? I just want some sample input values for say, coal.
07:45:34 <Jerub> Right, I understand this algorithm now :)
07:47:44 <Touqen> There is definately something seriously wrong with the aircraft in the nightlies.
07:49:19 <Touqen> OR they are just designed to appear to fly faster or something.
07:49:29 <Touqen> Or I'm just really tired.
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07:52:32 <Rubidium> Touqen: now they fly as fast as trains instead 1/4th of the speed of a train
07:56:55 <Touqen> The plane inspired by the concorde is a bit obnoxious to watch sometimes.
08:03:07 <peter1138> Jerub: you understand it? can you write something up on it then? ;-)
08:03:35 <Jerub> I was just about to paste a patch.
08:03:42 <Jerub> just wanted to do a little more verification
08:04:19 <Jerub> C isn't my best language
08:04:38 <Jerub> I am worried about overflows.
08:04:47 <Jerub> I have not tested it for all possible input values.
08:08:46 <Jerub> To cut a long story short, f is 255 until transit days 1, it then decreases by 1 per day until transit days 2, at which point it decreases by 2 per day
08:08:53 <Jerub> with a minimum value of 31.
08:12:05 <Jerub> I totally don't like that byte being there, it scares me.
08:12:14 <Jerub> changing it to an int is just safer.
08:13:04 <peter1138> it can't be more than 255, heh
08:13:22 <peter1138> as cargo_days is a byte
08:13:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9917 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: prepare some more areas for more road types.
08:13:43 <Jerub> peter1138: it's possible to overflow in that single line though I think. I'm not good with C.
08:13:51 <Jerub> f = 255 - 2 * transit_days + 2 * cs->transit_days[0] + cs->transit_days[1];
08:14:04 <peter1138> i'm not convinced that it is a worthwhile cleanup
08:15:16 <Jerub> The thing that scares me in this function even more is further up
08:15:19 <Jerub> uint32 var18 = min(dist, 0xFFFF) | (min(num_pieces, 0xFF) << 16) | (transit_days << 24);
08:15:24 <Jerub> uint16 callback = GetCargoCallback(CBID_CARGO_PROFIT_CALC, 0, var18, cs);
08:16:43 <Jerub> param1 is unused, and param2 is packed with a bunch of values and stuffed into a uint32
08:17:04 <peter1138> because that's what the callback expects
08:17:28 <Jerub> But that's the only place the callback functionality is defined or used.
08:17:52 <peter1138> currently, yes. there is another place it will be sued
08:18:42 <peter1138> "The time unit used equals 185 engine ticks, or 2.5 TTD days"
08:19:10 <Jerub> On reflection, the 255 in the calculation will stop it from overflowing because it promotes the calculation to being an int calculation.
08:20:13 <peter1138> the other callback for cargos has var18 stuffed with ssaaaatt
08:20:53 <peter1138> tt = cargo days, aaaa = cargo waiting, ss = last vehicle speed
08:22:55 <Jerub> peter1138: If it were me, I'd allow you to provide a void*, so I could use an arbitary struct...
08:23:21 <peter1138> not good practice either
08:23:35 <Jerub> I have to run off, this has been fun :)
08:23:39 <Rubidium> Jerub: problem is GRFs don't know how to handle structs
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08:48:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9918 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp): -Fix: the available roadtypes/railtypes were not updated on GRF updates.
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11:02:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9919 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_gui.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: prepare some more places for more road types.
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11:54:40 <Jerub> so how do I design tracks and stations for superlong trains?
11:54:45 <Jerub> do I just use superlong platforms?
11:54:53 <peter1138> use superlong tracks and platforms, clearly
11:55:45 <Brianetta> Use long signal blocks
11:56:01 <Brianetta> Avoid temptation to make signal blcoks shorter than trains, except near junctions
11:56:16 <Brianetta> You'll understand when you get a jam and need to reverse the buggers
11:57:42 <Jerub> I'm only just starting to experiment with 20 carriage trains.
11:58:13 <Rubidium> that's not even near superlong
11:58:53 <Jerub> yeah, that's why I was asking.
11:59:06 <Jerub> so I really do have to make platforms the length of the train?
12:01:07 <Rubidium> not necessarily, but trains longer than the platform make loading/unloading much slower
12:03:51 <peter1138> try unloading there ;p
12:04:54 <Rubidium> Berney Arms Grand Central Station ;)
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12:13:13 <Jerub> So what's long? 60? 80?
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12:14:50 <Brianetta> That's a small station.
12:15:25 <Brianetta> A two-car DMU would have trouble unloading passengers.
12:15:39 <Brianetta> I suppose there's the overgrown, not as tall part of the platform.
12:19:46 <Jerub> I just made a station big enough to collect coal from two mines.
12:19:58 <Jerub> and if it were a teensy bit larger, an oilfield :)
12:25:41 <kaan> erhm, no comments, im quite daft when it comes to graphics :P
12:45:11 <Noldo> skidd13: how pro gpl are you?
12:48:37 <skidd13> Noldo: why ya askin? I prefer CC (by-nc).
12:52:37 <Biff> he probably asks because openttd is gpl :)
12:53:12 <Noldo> or I would like it to be
12:53:26 <Noldo> or anything dfsg-free is ok :)
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12:55:49 <skidd13> Refering dfsg.. I'm using DEBIAN
12:56:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r9920 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt italian.txt romanian.txt):
12:56:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-05-25 14:56:27
12:56:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 34 fixed, 15 changed by arnaullv (49)
12:56:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 2 fixed by lorenzodv (2)
12:56:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 12 fixed, 11 changed by CrystyB (23)
12:58:23 <Jerub> do you ever use transfer stations?
13:04:46 <elmex> but transfer is a complete mess ;-/
13:05:27 <elmex> i once tried to setup a feeder network, but it wont work right
13:05:40 <elmex> the cargo is just mixed up and it wont work somehow ;-/
13:05:49 <Noldo> it's just an accounting trick anyway
13:06:15 <elmex> it would be a nice feature to be able to setup feeder networks
13:06:48 <elmex> but atm you can't do A->D, B->D, C->D, D->Z with only coal
13:07:05 <elmex> waiting for cargo packets :)
13:07:26 <Sionide> elmex, yeah you can...?
13:07:35 <Sionide> i've done it with wood in my latest game
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13:07:51 <elmex> well, when station D also received coal from a local industry the income is mixed up
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13:08:35 <skidd13> Back again, damn thunderstorm!
13:08:38 <elmex> the cargo is merged and the game can't keep track of which cargo comes from where
13:08:52 <elmex> so you only get the income as if you would transport from D->Z
13:09:01 <Sionide> what version are you running?
13:09:11 <elmex> at least as far as i've tested it yesterday with current svn
13:09:18 <Sionide> you saying all trains doing *->D, run at a loss?
13:09:35 <Noldo> skidd13: the point is that I would like openttd to have dfsg-free graphics so it could be distributed in debian main
13:09:46 <Sionide> not true! you get transfer income, it's yellow isn't it.. instead of green?
13:09:51 <Jerub> this doesn't make any sense.
13:10:01 <elmex> Sionide: the yellow one doesn't go to your bankaccount
13:10:10 <Jerub> the SH'8P' is more expensive than the better-in-every-way UU'37'
13:10:15 <skidd13> Noldo: Ah, so why ya askin me?
13:11:03 <peter1138> Jerub: so? it's also earlier...
13:11:19 <Sionide> elmex, where does it go then?
13:11:23 <Noldo> skidd13: because you seem to be somewhat capable artist
13:11:57 <Sionide> profit this year: £85k, last year: £84k
13:11:59 <elmex> Sionide: it's partially transfered to the train that picks up at D, but that train wont make any income
13:12:01 <Jerub> peter1138: it's just weird, I expect upgrades to cost me money, not give me refunds.
13:12:30 <skidd13> Noldo: Thanks, but I'm not the only one! ;) This would be a realy hard job,
13:13:07 <elmex> and tell me whether the train from the middle station makes income :)
13:13:26 <Jerub> I was looking at the code for calculating income today.
13:13:48 <Jerub> I don't think it handles transfer stations very well, but it's very complicated and I don't understand it yet.
13:14:19 <elmex> the problem is just that the game doesn't keep track of the sources of the cargo
13:15:48 <Jerub> yes, the profit for a transported cargo is calculated from the type of cargo, how long it was in transit, and the distance it was taken.
13:15:49 <elmex> Sionide: right, nice eh? are you sure that one truck doesn't contain 15 tonnes from carlisle woods and 15 from carlisle heights?
13:16:53 * Sionide watches the middle station
13:17:20 <Sionide> apparently, in the cargo info it shows the station with the most in that truck..
13:17:48 <elmex> Sionide: of course it makes 'some' income, but have you tested whether it really works? keep an eye on the trucks of how the trucks' contents changes it's destination when loading cargo
13:18:24 <elmex> it's not easy to see, but it just doesn't work as expected
13:18:46 <elmex> try my w.sav, train 2 _never_ makes any positive income
13:18:57 <Jerub> yeah, this is consistent with what I was concerned with
13:19:20 <Sionide> elmex, in my game, all trains make > 50k per year
13:20:14 <Sionide> so what it should say X tonnes from station a and Y tonnes from station b
13:20:22 <elmex> i don't care bout your game, i care about what i have observed in my test game
13:20:47 <elmex> if it works for you it's great
13:20:52 <elmex> then maybe only i'm having these issues
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13:21:35 <Jerub> I think I basically established that transfers were good if you didn't care about the interim profits.
13:21:54 <Jerub> just so you can get 4 nearby resources to pool so you can run big long distances with the cargo
13:22:23 <elmex> but it's still a mess ;-/
13:22:40 <elmex> that the feeder trains don't make negative income is just a hack
13:22:53 <Sionide> there could be loads of other reasons why your train2 isn't making any money
13:23:59 <elmex> Sionide: right, then tell me one :) i can give you the savegame and you can try out with a nighty
13:24:30 <elmex> if the train 1 would go straight to the drop station everything would be fine
13:24:39 <elmex> and if train2 would not load any transfered cargo
13:25:08 <Sionide> you want train2 to *just* load local cargo?
13:25:27 <elmex> i want train2 to load any cargo
13:25:37 <elmex> and i want it to make profit
13:25:44 <skidd13> I'm off. That damn thunderstorm is getting harder.
13:27:00 <Sionide> there isn't a r9894 linux nightly?
13:27:15 <elmex> i've no idea, you can use an earlier one with w2.sav too
13:28:25 <elmex> even with 0.5.1 train2 never makes any income. the income should at least be around the income of train1
13:29:01 <Sionide> i'm running it with svn now
13:29:39 <elmex> that should even display 'Cost...' above train2 when it unloads at the dropoff station
13:29:47 <Sionide> why should their incomes be the same
13:29:56 <Sionide> look how far train1 carries coal, compared to train2
13:30:14 <elmex> so why would it make negative income?
13:33:27 <elmex> the miracle happens when you un-extend station Herzhaven heights to not get local coal
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13:35:57 <elmex> if you extend herzhaven heights to the local coal mine the income will become messed up
13:36:05 <elmex> forgot to extend it in that game
13:41:55 <Sionide> elmex, i'm working on it
13:42:00 <Sionide> cos i have that exact set up in mine
13:42:06 <Sionide> there's a local wood by the feeder station
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13:55:30 <Sionide> elmex, i'm gonna figure this.. i'm doing my own experiment on a new map..
13:56:49 <Sionide> well maybe more than a sec
13:56:54 <Sionide> how long you online for? :p
13:57:11 <elmex> don't know... 10 hours... 20...
13:57:57 <elmex> but you should be able to confirm my observations with w2.sav already
13:59:59 <Sionide> elmex, yeah i confirm it, but i'm just testing something else now
14:00:11 <Sionide> well, a similar idea anyway
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14:51:11 <Sionide> elmex, it's definitely because in your savegame, the power planet is so close to the mines...
14:54:36 <Sionide> all the trains which take the coal from the middle station, to the further away power station, make money
14:54:52 <Sionide> the other one runs at a loss
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15:37:13 <elmex> Sionide: yea, that setup hides the problem well :-)
15:37:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9921 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9892): ownership wasn't properly propagated on owner changes.
15:40:23 <Sionide> explain it further, with reference to that savegame
15:43:31 <elmex> Sionide: build another station next to winnigville mines that just transport coal from that mine to the destination station called 'wonnigville transfer' that one where the 'makes no money' train goes
15:44:13 <elmex> it proves that the train that 'makes no money' should make money :)
15:44:41 <Sionide> you'd never set it up like that though in a real game
15:44:45 <elmex> of course the trains that have longer runs make money
15:44:57 <elmex> because they make up for the loss from the transfer
15:46:10 <elmex> the point my savegame tried to proof is that the transfer-logic and system is broken
15:47:47 <Sionide> in a real game that situation wouldn't occur
15:48:05 <elmex> so there is no bug because in a real game the bug isn't as visible?
15:48:42 <glx> it's a known fact that we need cargo packets to properly fix transfer
15:49:02 <glx> for now you should live with the limitations
15:49:27 <elmex> i'm not saying anything diff. :)
15:49:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9922 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_ship.cpp: -Fix (r9914): [YAPF] null pointer dereference.
15:50:00 <elmex> Sionide: also in your savegame the bug doesn't occur as much because only few of the cargo is actually mixed with the coal genereated by the local mine
15:56:19 <Sionide> it's still to do with the distance though, right?
15:58:20 <elmex> hm, i don't know exactly what they problem is, i guess the cargo's source isn't properlt recorded when cargo with diferent sources is mixed so that trains that don't make profit with the cargo by themselves don't make any profit
15:59:19 <glx> it isn't recorded because we need cargo packets for that
16:02:35 <_42_> Sacro, KUDr (KUDr@mazanec1.netbox.cz) was last seen quitting #openttd 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours 50 minutes ago (04.05. 19:12) stating "Read error: Connection reset by peer" after spending 8 hours 58 minutes there.
16:02:51 <_42_> Sacro, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel.
16:04:10 <DorpsGek> glx: I have not seen KUDr_wrk.
16:04:29 <Sacro> glx: not sure which is more useless
16:04:43 <DorpsGek> glx: Sacro was last seen in #openttd 13 seconds ago: <Sacro> glx: not sure which is more useless
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16:05:58 <glx> Sacro: DorpsGek is better but only if it was here when the searched people spoke for the last time
16:43:51 <elmex> skidd13: i like I or IX most ;-/
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16:51:19 <Thomas[NL]> skidd13, how about just the plus, minus and arrow of IX ? (bigger of course)
16:52:46 <skidd13> IMO there has to be the connection to the order-list
17:07:00 <KUDr_wrk> Sacro: what exactly you need to know?
17:08:37 <Sacro> KUDr_wrk: i have finished college till september, and i want to start the signalling rewrite, and i want to integrate it with YAPF
17:09:36 <Sacro> well, the signalling system needs pathfinding
17:09:41 <KUDr_wrk> like PBS(including reservations)?
17:09:44 <Sacro> and i know yapf uses lookahead
17:09:49 <Sacro> yes, PBS is one of the things
17:10:31 <KUDr_wrk> signaling needs simple pathfinding but reservation system is much more complex than yapf itself
17:10:39 <KUDr_wrk> YAPF is now stateless
17:10:50 <KUDr_wrk> and signaling will be statefull
17:11:19 <KUDr_wrk> so the best would be to build signaling on top of YAPF interface
17:11:22 <peter1138> reservation is easy
17:11:42 <KUDr_wrk> peter1138: for single train yes
17:12:40 <Sacro> well i'd like to have PBS
17:12:44 <Sacro> as well as yellow signals
17:12:51 <KUDr_wrk> so if you need to extend YAPF interface to expose some internals, tell me. The same if you need YAPF to respect some rules that can be read from the map
17:13:00 <Sacro> for when peter1138 does his realistic deceleration
17:13:32 <KUDr_wrk> how will yellow signals influence YAPF?
17:13:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
17:13:57 <Sacro> if it has 2 lines to choose from, one yellow, one green, chose the green
17:14:09 <Sacro> wheras it'd prefer yellow over red
17:14:17 <KUDr_wrk> for PBS i need to know whther and what PBS states I should take into consideration
17:15:00 <KUDr_wrk> hmm, so like half the penalty than for red?
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17:17:27 <elmex> how can i change breakdowns in a game ona dedicated server?
17:22:55 <elmex> and if the game already runs?
17:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> probably not at all
17:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> save it, load as local game, change diff, save, restart server with new savegame
17:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Sacro> well, the signalling system needs pathfinding <- actually it does not, just run the pathfinder from the end of the reserved path (instead of from the engine position), then reserve the appropriate trackbit, repeat if reserved path is too short, or if path ends in a "complex" block (terminology as in celestars paper)
17:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> if the engine leaves a tile, it just takes the next reserved trackbit, without pathfinder involved, then extends the reserved path like described above, if necessary
17:28:22 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: yes, but i think it will need accurate stopping distances
17:28:33 <Sacro> so a train reserves a path longer than its stopping distance
17:28:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> just make sure stopping distance < reserved path length
17:29:06 <Sacro> so it keeps getting green signals
17:29:12 <Sacro> if it gets a yellow, it slows down
17:29:43 <Rubidium> the signal blocks just need to be long enough that when the train hits a yellow signal it can stop in time for the red signal
17:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> you don't need yellow signals for that
17:30:06 <Sacro> i want yellow signals :p
17:30:08 <Rubidium> and when the user doesn't, the trains crash :)
17:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> just make the train slow down if the extension of the reserved path fails
17:30:13 <Sacro> i want proper home and distants with semaphores
17:30:19 <Sacro> Rubidium: i did consider this idea
17:30:25 <Sacro> for people that leave 1 space between signals
17:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can have yellow signals as visual effects and stuff
17:30:57 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: i think they should have some kind of effect on the trains
17:31:09 <Sacro> make them slow down so the block has more chance to clear
17:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> imho, short signal distance should reduce track max speed
17:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> no matter if yellow or green
17:31:46 <Sacro> yes... a train should not be able to increase its braking distance past the length of the blocks it has reserved
17:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> so you have like "if signal distance = 3 tiles, max. 100km/h"
17:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> but this will not be trivial
17:33:14 <Sacro> i think it should be affected by weight of the train
17:33:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> because you have to reserve this distance even over junctions
17:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i think this gets too far
17:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> you should take slower steps
17:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> implement the reserved path, the braking distance thing afterwards, and yellow signals on top of it
17:35:03 <Sacro> its 3 different things at least
17:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> allow for different signal systems, for easy, medum and hard difficulty
17:35:29 <Sacro> should i leave the original default green...
17:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> a propos medium, i knew i forgot something ...
17:35:48 <Sacro> please don't talk in greek/latin, i get confused:p
17:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, you can make everything default red
17:36:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> but "easy" should not be affected by breaking distance and stuff
17:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> only have like one signal type
17:36:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> that automatically "does the right thing"
17:36:30 <Sacro> what would "the right thing" be?
17:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> "a propos" is french, i believe
17:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> make trains not crash! :)
17:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> and of course sattelite tv is affected...
17:38:16 <KUDr_wrk> Sacro: Eddi|zuHause2 is right - you don't need changes in YAPF in order to implement PBS - and this should be your prefered way
17:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> YAPF can later be tuned to give penalty for crossing a reserved path and stuff
17:38:56 <Sacro> KUDr_wrk: what about for path following?
17:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> like it gives penalty for red signals
17:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> shouldn't be hard to adapt
17:39:21 <Sacro> surely train requests route, yapf plans route, passes it to signaller for routing
17:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: you can read the reserved path from the map, does not need pathfinder
17:40:01 <Sacro> so does YAPF return the reserved path to the train? or the map? or what?
17:40:09 <KUDr_wrk> Sacro: 'path following'?
17:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> no... follow me:
17:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> engine: leaves tile, has already a reserved path in front of it
17:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> reads from the next tile, which track bit is reserved
17:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> follows that trackbit
17:41:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> then it checks if the reserved path is still "long enough" (function based on speed and weight)
17:41:48 <KUDr_wrk> YAPF contains the path after pathfinding so you only need to call it directly not via wrapper functions that were made only because of C code
17:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> (only needs "follow track" function)
17:42:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> from the end of the reserved path, you then run YAPF, to get a new trackbit for expansion
17:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> you then mark this trackbit as "reserved"
17:42:53 <KUDr_wrk> agree with Eddi|zuHause2
17:43:29 <KUDr_wrk> this will also ensure that the reserved path will not change so often
17:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> in case you find an already reserved trackbit, revert to the last signal, and turn that signal red
17:43:50 <Sacro> and then the signal before goes yellow
17:44:04 <Sacro> the train hits the yellow, slows down
17:44:21 <KUDr_wrk> i would say 'forget yellow signals if you want to implement PBS'
17:44:22 <Sacro> then either stops at the red, or it goes green, and it speeds back up again
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17:44:47 <Sacro> KUDr_wrk: yeah, might be an idea to not have yellows in a pbs block
17:44:57 <KUDr_wrk> they are 2 different things PBS and yellow signals
17:45:22 <KUDr_wrk> so they should be implemented separately
17:45:29 <peter1138> abuse of yapf too ;p
17:45:35 <peter1138> (and of course it doesn't work)
17:45:36 <Sacro> peter1138: what have you done? :P
17:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> one additional note... a signal should probably save wether the bock before or behind it is "simple", "complex" or whatever else celestar wanted to differentiate
17:47:50 <Sacro> isn't simple only one exit?
17:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> i believe in celestars paper it was: "simple" = just straight track, "join" = only joins, "split" = only switches, "complex" everything else
17:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> but imho those are too many special cases
17:50:12 <Sacro> in UK signalling, if its just straight track, it tends to be default green, unless the block is occupied
17:53:19 <Sacro> i don't follow most of the code though D:
17:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> kay... i expect working signals not before 2010 then :p
17:54:07 <Sacro> i will bundle them with DNF
17:55:07 <elmex> btw, has it been confirmed that DNF is just a marketing gag?
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18:40:24 <UndernotBuilder> is possible to create a patch for chatting before joining?
18:41:48 <Rubidium> that would require a lot or reworking of the whole network system
18:41:57 <glx> you can spectate before join to play
18:42:23 <TrueBrain> you can chat while joining in fact, it is just that the GUI doesn't support it :p
18:43:17 <UndernotBuilder> but there isn't a irc channel per server...
18:43:50 <Rubidium> that's because lots of the server admins fail in making one
18:44:26 <UndernotBuilder> and I can't use the say command while I am connecting
18:46:17 <UndernotBuilder> also spectator mode is bad with big maps
18:56:31 *** alanin is now known as Alanin
19:26:16 <XeryusTC> UndernotBuilder: get autopilot and make a bridge...
19:53:41 <Wolf01> rcon <pass> patch <name> <value> doesn't work for me
19:54:02 <elmex> Wolf01:try: rcon <pass> "patch <name> <value"
19:54:11 <elmex> i fell for that trap too ;-/
19:54:52 <elmex> i usually only read the syntax description
19:54:53 <Wolf01> oh right, is better to read the command help
19:56:49 <Wolf01> but are patches saved when set in this way? i tried yesterday and today i had to set them again
19:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> patches changed during the game are saved in the savegame only
19:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> not in the config
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20:27:27 <Bjarni> "How Long is the Next Train?"
20:27:28 <Bjarni> "About 350 feet." Station attendant's response to a passenger enquiring about the late running train service
20:27:57 <Bjarni> think before asking. You might get the answer you ask for instead of the answer you want :p
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21:38:28 <kaan> what is command.cpp doing?
21:39:21 <Rubidium> handling (execution) of commands?
21:40:57 <kaan> why is that a good idea?
21:44:39 <kaan> im doing my best to understand waht im tinkering with. i dont want to break more stuff than i need to.
21:46:33 <TrueBrain> most likely it means you shouldn't be touching it :p
21:51:33 <kaan> isnt it a bit odd to have a structure like this when you could just call the functions directly? is to facilitate multiplayer or something like that?
21:52:54 <kaan> ok, that should do it i suppose :)
21:52:57 <glx> it's not to facilitate multiplayer, it's to make it safe
21:53:40 <kaan> I take it that this structure is used even in singleplayer?
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21:54:00 <glx> of course we don't use 2 different systems
21:54:23 <kaan> ok, thats all my questions answered for tonight then :)
21:54:46 <kaan> have you looked at the ctp2 code?
21:55:03 <kaan> lots of bugs with bugs in it
21:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have never seen bugs that grow little bugs on them :p
21:57:37 <kaan> hehe, ctp2 has it all ;)
22:02:13 <ln-> done watching episode 3x23 [x]
22:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> it was totally evil, right? :p
22:06:31 <ln-> i just wonder if there will be one more episode in season 3 or not
22:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> no... when would that supposed to be?
22:08:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9923 /trunk/ (18 files in 5 dirs): -Add: support for Action 0 Road vehicles, property 1C, bit 0.
22:08:08 <ln-> there were 24 episodes in season 2, that's all
22:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i found the number odd, too...
22:09:08 <ln-> 3x23 was first aired only three days ago
22:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but it was definitely the season final
22:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> the next 3 seasons will only have 16 episodes each
22:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> and the series will have a definite ending then
22:12:32 <ln-> having watched all of season 3 within a week means that i'll have to wait significantly longer for 4x01
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22:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> at least till january
22:21:01 <ln-> i'm not very confident the site where i downloaded these episodes will be up and running in january anymore...
22:22:04 <guru3> Multiplayer Roller Coaster Tycoon would be awesome.
22:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, the place where i got the episodes from appears to be relatively reliable
22:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have been using it for two years now
22:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> lost was the second series that i downloaded... and meanwhile i have like 20 in the list...
22:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> (not all run simultaneously though)
22:24:41 <ln-> this web site i used is interesting in the sense that all the files there are downloadable by anyone, no registration or passwords or anything.
22:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> i do not have that kind of speed anyway :p
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22:29:14 <Hendikins> Ugh, nothing I hate more in multiplayer than somebody who puts two airports on opposite sides of the map, 1 plane and goes AFK whilst the money rolls in.
22:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> disable planes :)
22:31:20 <ln-> actually i would gladly pay for such a great way to download episodes, but apparently the copyright holders don't want to sell me stuff.
22:31:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9924 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix: update the road vehicle speeds when stopped and/or running just behind another vehicle.
22:31:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, the world is totally upside down :)
22:32:01 <Hendikins> Eddi|zuHause2: Not my server.
22:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> the copyright holders want us to pay for the fact that they withdraw information from over half of the world for a very long time
22:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> or it "withhold"?
22:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> the german word is "vorenthalten"
22:34:11 <ln-> withhold makes more sense in that context, in my opinion.
22:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> i can never correctly translate this kind of words
22:36:58 <Vikthor> Wow, such a major feature enters trunk and no comments on it? Great job Rubidium, thank you
22:37:47 <glx> finally someone noticed it :)
22:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> i noticed the commits, but i do not understand them...
22:38:34 <Vikthor> Well, I had to test it with CS Tram to be sure
22:39:02 <peter1138> what about the patch option to turn it off!
22:39:08 <peter1138> it's FORCED down my THROAT!
22:39:40 <glx> Eddi|zuHause2: r9923 to be exact
22:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i understood that 9924 does not exactly count as "feature" :p
22:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> i fear it's missing some context
22:44:27 <ln-> as far as i understand, that's all the necessary context.
22:44:52 <ln-> the guy gets upset by someone thanking in advance.
22:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's definitely not worth my time
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23:04:43 <ln-> Bjarni, what episode are you at?
23:10:34 <ln-> me and eddi|z2 are at 3x23.
23:13:00 <skidd13> Are trams in trunk avalible? I saw the track data file in the recent svn up.
23:13:48 * Bjarni knows what a polar bear looks like
23:14:17 <Bjarni> they are totally out of context here :s
23:14:17 <ln-> polarbear appears in something like 1x02
23:14:36 <Bjarni> you are speaking garbage right now
23:14:54 <Bjarni> I'm clueless to what you mean
23:15:59 <Bjarni> I don't get the idea of lost
23:16:07 <Bjarni> it's like watching boring TV
23:16:19 <Bjarni> wait a minute, it is watching boring TV
23:18:14 <Sacro> ln-: i notice the SIMPLE bit
23:18:29 <Vikthor> Sacro: Yeah, in trunk for more than hour now :)
23:18:30 <Sacro> Tramo estas surrela veturilo (trajno), kiu, male al fervojo, partoprenas en la strata trafiko kaj sekvas ties regulojn (fervojo ĝuas prioritaton).
23:19:04 <ln-> "En sporvogn er et transportmiddel, som kører på spor, for det meste nedsænket i vejbanen."
23:19:05 <Bjarni> then it's too complex for you to get :p
23:21:09 <Sacro> openttd crashes if you don't open it in X
23:21:13 <ln-> tramways in the menu, but disabled. what to do?
23:21:31 <Bjarni> ln-: don't select it :p
23:21:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9925 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt road_gui.cpp): -Fix: wrong tooltips in station picker.
23:22:13 <Vikthor> ln-: You need to have vehicles taht use tracks to be able to build tracks
23:23:34 <Bjarni> is it good or bad that I could find this in like 3 sec because I can remember the name of the station and knows how to spell it? :/
23:24:25 <Sacro> i want the brittish tram set
23:24:39 <ln-> Vikthor: thank you for the link
23:26:00 <ln-> Bjarni: there were trams in copenhagen but not anymore?
23:26:09 <Bjarni> they were closed in 1972
23:26:32 <Vikthor> ln-: It is more like alpha version, but works pretty good(AFAI can tell after brief test)
23:27:01 <Bjarni> now we has a shitty metro line and for less than the price of the metro, we could have gained all the tram lines back, but the politicians wanted a metro
23:27:05 <ln-> Bjarni: precisely the same year the tram lines of Turku were shut down.
23:30:00 <Bjarni> btw that train is not a tram. It's a diesel train with two 24 litre diesel engines and a top speed of 120 km/h... a real train
23:30:49 <ln-> hmm, unfortunately i gotta go sleep right now. gn
23:32:09 <peter1138> roads just shouldn't have huge trains down them
23:32:21 <Bjarni> I like how I searched for the streetname and the town on google image search and this picture was the 2nd to show up
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23:32:41 <Bjarni> it has a whole lot of pics of the stops and maps and stuff, but this picture took priority :)
23:32:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9926 /trunk/src/table/roadveh.h: -Fix (r9923): the vehicle should continue on the next tile, not 'finishing' the turn.
23:34:25 *** Sionide- is now known as Sionide
23:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Bjarni> they were closed in 1972 <- a lot of west german cities closed tram systems around that time also, and chose to use busses. then they all got hit by the oil crisis
23:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> in eastern block countries tram systems usually got improved
23:36:28 <Bjarni> here it was because busses fitted better with the road traffic. However they became stuck in traffic in no time and the tram lanes became bus lanes and we gained nothing
23:37:28 <Vikthor> Here in Prague, they decided to close trolleybus lines around that date, fortunately, trams were preserved
23:37:35 <glx> they rebuilt tram in Paris
23:38:02 <Jerub> Brisbane lost its Trams in the '70s.
23:38:09 <Jerub> but Melbourne still uses them extensively.
23:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> i was in luxemburg last week, and i found it insane how many busses go around in that city
23:38:24 <Sacro> Hull lost its trollybuses yeeeeeears ago :(
23:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> i am really glad my city uses trams :p
23:39:29 <Bjarni> during that time, it was known to everybody that everybody would get a car, so it was a question of time before public transportation would be a thing of the past
23:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> with one tram you can transport as many people as with 3 busses
23:39:42 <Bjarni> they also closed a whole lot of railroad lines
23:40:05 <Bjarni> luckily I live in a part of the country where it's impossible to close the railroads... too many people use them
23:40:16 <Bjarni> it's impossible to move all of them into busses
23:40:25 <Vikthor> Eddi|zuHause2: But you have to build tracks first
23:40:53 <Bjarni> using tracks helps a lot. They can drive really close to each other without hitting each other
23:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> which was mostly done in the 19th century...
23:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> Halle (Saale) has the oldest electric tram system in the world
23:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> it did not have the first electric tram, but the first electric tram system
23:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> that actually went through a city
23:43:11 <Vikthor> Eddi|zuHause2: here in Prague new tram track was openned in 2003, and it services pretty big area
23:43:19 <Bjarni> I presume they added modern stuff to it over the years
23:43:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, they launched a brand new track here in december 2006
23:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> and they are still building a new connection
23:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> and they bought a lot of new trams
23:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> in the past few years
23:45:27 <Vikthor> Here they bought trams by Porsche :)
23:45:45 <skidd13> Coolyou can share orders between trams and busses. :D
23:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> before 1989, mostly trams of the "Tatra" type were used (from prag)
23:46:19 <Bjarni> btw we are getting new tracks here :D
23:46:21 <Vikthor> In fact only design is by Porsche, the rest is Škoda
23:46:48 <Bjarni> so our double tracked railroad is partly single tracked for a few months
23:46:56 <Bjarni> and then it will be in mint condition :D
23:47:08 <Vikthor> Eddi|zuHause2: So I assume you live somewhere in former DDR?
23:47:38 <Bjarni> and we all know where Halle is, right? :)
23:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> Halle (Saale) is famous for its salt, which was found around the 10th century, i believe
23:49:19 <Vikthor> Bjarni: Maybe, but wikipedia knows for sure
23:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> in the 1970's, the city celebrated it's 1000th birthday, and last year, it celebrated 1200 years :p
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23:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> apparently, they found new documents that mentioned the location earlier
23:51:30 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: I used to have a neighbour like that. Once in a while she thought it had been a while since her last birthday so she decided to host another one. She became a lot older in just a few years
23:52:10 <skidd13> Will there be another button in the "replace road vehicle" window to switch between the road types like in the train one?
23:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> both the name of the city (Halle) as well as the name of the river (Saale) have to do with salt
23:52:40 <Bjarni> skidd13: I didn't plan it, but I guess it would be a nice idea
23:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> Digitalfox: i would assume it's supported, but to make sure, try it out
23:54:10 <skidd13> There are only 5 votes at my poll for the icons for my patch. :(
23:54:32 <Digitalfox> Eddi|zuHause2: I didn't try it, but i will later :)
23:55:07 <Bjarni> maybe it sounds better if I say:
23:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> am i the only person to think that the channel-topic has plenty of redundancy?
23:56:15 <Bjarni> it's too tricky to figure out what to keep and what to ditch
23:56:25 <Bjarni> so nobody dares to modify it
23:56:26 <Digitalfox> skidd13: I voted the I it seems to be more easy to understand form my point :)
23:56:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: in german, the number "6" and the word "sex" are spoken almost identically
23:58:00 <Bjarni> Sleepie: you spoiled it :p
23:58:13 <Sleepie> I voted for I too. Imho the "cleanest" design
23:58:48 <Bjarni> skidd13: VII is out of the question. We will get the "colourblind people can't tell the difference" complains again
23:58:51 <Rubidium> question is, how "understandable" are those icons
continue to next day ⏵
