IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-05-16
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00:21:49 <muszek> is it possible to auto-upgrade many trains to a newer model?
00:28:07 <Sleepie> anyway time for sleep now by all
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01:16:23 <Ailure> there's something cute with pages like that one
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06:57:01 <Rubidium> svn://svn.openttd.org/website and svn://svn.openttd.org/branches/masterserver_updater
06:57:53 <independence> can I browse the svn repository via http someplace?
06:58:28 <Rubidium> nope, we had trac but it used way too many resource for some (totally) unknown reason
07:05:06 <boekabart> independence: if you're on Windows, you can use TortoiseSVN to browse the repository.
07:06:16 <Phazorx> if (CHANCE16I(20 + (i->pct_transported[j] * 20 >> 8), 1024, r >> 16))
07:06:16 <Phazorx> new_prod += ((RandomRange(50) + 10) * old_prod) >> 8;
07:06:38 <Phazorx> does that mean with increase of pct_transported chance increases?
07:07:05 <Phazorx> that *20 >> 8 is a bit confusing since i dont recall oreder it will be executed in cpp
07:08:31 <Rubidium> first mulitplication, then bitwise shifts
07:09:11 <independence> Rubidium: masterserver_updater get's info from the masterserver and puts it into a mysql table for the php-script to read or how does it work?
07:09:35 <independence> I want to make something that queries my server and checks how many players are online, and then puts that on my website
07:10:26 <Phazorx> peter1138: somehow i fail to see that working over long period of time :/
07:11:19 <Rubidium> masterserver_update are two different things; one side is the masterserver that gets queries etc. from the game itself (server online, server offline, what servers are there). The updater checks (regularly) whether the servers are still online and updates the statistics of the servers (this data is shown on the website).
07:12:46 <Rubidium> so what you probably want is a modified updater which does not remove the server from the database when it goes offline, because then it isn't added again because you should register to the 'real' masterserver otherwise noone can find you
07:15:52 <peter1138> Phazorx: basically it ranges from 1:50 to 1:25 chance. still low.
07:16:09 <peter1138> Phazorx: decrementing is fixed at 1:50
07:16:27 <peter1138> 1:51.2 -> 1:26.2564 ... heh
07:16:30 <Phazorx> peter if my math is not failimg me miserably it does not get even close to 1:25
07:16:39 <independence> What I'd like is to write something in python to just query the server and get the number of clients that are online, preferrably without running any daemon or so :)
07:17:01 <Phazorx> so with 0 it is 20 + 0, with 100 it is ~28
07:17:26 <peter1138> if (r <= (65536 * (20 + (255 * 20) / 256) / 1024))
07:18:07 <Phazorx> hmm... i gusee i dont know how chance16i works in 1st place
07:18:13 <peter1138> #define CHANCE16I(a, b, v) ((uint16)(v) <= (uint16)((65536 * (a)) / (b)))
07:18:19 <Phazorx> second param is not scale relative to 12st?
07:18:43 <Rubidium> independence: then take a look at trunk/src/network/core/udp.[ch]pp
07:19:25 <Phazorx> and i gues it was wrong for me to assume that pct+* is actually percent
07:20:05 <Phazorx> now i see 1:25, thanks
07:21:17 <peter1138> that's for smooth economy, of course
07:21:27 <Phazorx> yeah, that's what i am questioning
07:21:50 <Phazorx> coopers have some weird rule of keeping rating between 65 and 75 i was trying to come to bottom of that
07:22:05 <Phazorx> i was usualy making sure it is as high as possible
07:22:12 <peter1138> the code doesn't agree with them, heh
07:22:20 <Phazorx> but in reality neither of aproaches guarantiees anything even over very long time
07:22:38 <Phazorx> peter1138: reality doesnt agree with code either btw :)
07:23:14 <Phazorx> for any used industry there should be a steady increase over 200 years of gametime
07:24:08 <Phazorx> actually i take that back
07:24:13 <Phazorx> changes arent relative
07:24:28 <peter1138> the changes are random too, yes
07:24:38 <peter1138> so even if it goes up, it may only go up a tiny bit
07:24:46 <Phazorx> random but i meant scale of changes isnot same even if chances are
07:25:23 <Phazorx> as in if old is 100 and it decreases 10 % it is 90 now
07:25:33 <Phazorx> and if next month it increases 10% it is 99
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07:40:59 <boekabart> Actually I think if those increases are truly random by percentage, Pharzox' observation would lead to a decrease in production on average, over time.
07:48:32 <independence> what are the dependencies for building openttd dedicated server on linux?
07:51:43 <independence> I need sdl for dedicated server also?
07:52:40 <blathijs> The graphics files are needed, though
08:01:29 <boekabart> sometimes we do things just because we need the money
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08:15:02 <independence> ===> Linking openttd
08:15:02 <independence> fontcache.o: In function `LoadFreeTypeFont':
08:15:02 <independence> fontcache.c:(.text+0x9a4): undefined reference to `FcFini'
08:15:15 <independence> anyone knows what could be wrong?
08:15:52 <Rubidium> an (too) old version of libfontconfig
08:16:23 <boekabart> a(n) (too) old.. actually ;)
08:16:55 <Rubidium> boekabart: a(n too) old...
08:17:10 <boekabart> Rubidium: no, a[n | too] old...
08:17:17 <independence> whoever wrote the .ebuild for gentoo forgot about fontconfig I suppose, it's not in the deps for the package :)
08:18:11 <TrueBrain> (in their bug-tracker)
08:20:38 <TrueBrain> 'git' can drive me crazy :(
08:20:51 <TrueBrain> more: git-svn can drive me crazy :p
08:21:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9855 /trunk/src/command.cpp: -Fix: [FS#779] do not perform any commands on MP_VOID tiles.
08:21:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9856 /branches/0.5/command.c:
08:21:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r9855):
08:21:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not perform any commands on MP_VOID tiles [FS#779] (r9855)
08:21:40 <Rubidium> oh oh... they've missed some commit mails
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08:30:47 <TrueBrain> I believe I now have a nice git2svn portal
08:30:50 <TrueBrain> and a working git in general
08:41:42 <peterbrett> TrueBrain: That is full of win.
08:42:00 <peterbrett> May I destruction test it?
08:42:16 <peterbrett> (later, because I have to go to lectures now...)
08:43:22 <Phazorx> boekabart: actually if you just leave the game running forever - all come to minimal output
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08:44:03 <Phazorx> and i think changes in production should be made a bit more rewarding to used industriy and perhaps less random
08:44:36 <peter1138> remember you are transporting cargo, not affecting supply & demand
08:45:51 <Phazorx> i'm thinking more from gameplay point of view rather than reality
08:46:13 <Phazorx> targete goods and flexible transport fees would make a whole different game
08:47:10 <boekabart> peter1138: you ARE affecting it anyway: remember the closures due to supply problems?
08:47:47 <boekabart> anyway, if you're not affecting it, average production should stay the same or grow over time, not get less
08:48:08 <Phazorx> i was talking about 1st tier only
08:48:14 <boekabart> actually it should grow a lot, 1:1 with country population size
08:49:03 <Phazorx> however it would be nice if some things would evolve in similar fasion to oil well/rigs
08:49:30 <Phazorx> one is available only till certain date and one only after
08:49:53 <Phazorx> i'm thinking cola age should end soon and be replaed by uranium for example
08:50:06 <Phazorx> so power plant would go nuclear
08:50:35 <boekabart> and it would output nuclear waste that should be taken to sellafield ;)
08:50:57 <Phazorx> more tiers = more fun imo
08:51:09 <peter1138> basically, increasing production just because you're transporting everything makes it too easy ;p
08:51:27 <Phazorx> and, this is something that is easy to do and i really like - a factory should have different ratio depending on how many different cargo types it takes
08:51:33 <Ailure> there's one thing that I wondered about TTD
08:51:35 <boekabart> Pharzorx: you do know that we still dig up coal nowadays, right? For both making power and melting metal.
08:51:38 <Ailure> is paper really transported that way? D:
08:52:14 <Phazorx> boekabart: i do know that, however it is not most common way to produce energy now
08:52:28 <boekabart> peter1138: i'm just saying that on average, the random fluctuation should tend towards growing a certain %% per year, not go lower
08:52:55 <boekabart> Pharzorx: Depends on the country. In the US and France, it isn't. In the Netherlands, it is.
08:53:20 <boekabart> Pharzorx: your nick is too hard to type.
08:53:25 <Phazorx> boekabart: well what i was implying - technology and resource consumption changes
08:54:16 <boekabart> every client does that?
08:54:22 <Phazorx> anyway - once network is setup there is not much to do aside of adding trains
08:54:30 <Phazorx> boekabart: you gotta be kidding me...
08:55:04 <boekabart> really, didn't. Probably my last client (AdiIRC) didn't... now I'm using Pidgin
08:55:19 <Phazorx> well there you are :)
08:55:47 <peter1138> wtf, gaim is now pidgin?
08:56:03 <Phazorx> and industries - it would give more variety to game if types of cargo change or at least price for cargo changes
08:56:18 <peter1138> Phazorx: probably possible with newindustries/newcargos
08:56:20 <Phazorx> i can see how coal is lucrative in steam age... but then it is oil...
08:56:28 <Phazorx> peter1138: would be nice
08:56:44 <peter1138> i.e. make newgrfs instead of messing with the default game ;)
08:56:55 <Phazorx> however that changes gameplay quite a bit some migth not like that
08:57:07 <Ailure> Some infamous player transported all his trains to his company HQ
08:57:11 <Ailure> that was in the corner of the map
08:57:30 <Phazorx> peter1138: something that i want in default is growth of output of factory proportional not only to raw 1st tier but also types
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08:57:47 <Phazorx> like 1:1 for each kidna if that is only one within last month
08:57:49 <boekabart> Ailure: company headquarters accept what?
08:58:02 <Phazorx> but if you deliver 2 kinda you get bonsu 10%, 3 kinda - 30
08:58:31 <Ailure> it was a one-way ride too
08:58:47 <Ailure> so he kept dumping passengers and mail at the HQ :P
08:59:00 <Ailure> while the passenger/mail production is relativly non-existant
08:59:02 <Phazorx> i knoew it generates but didnt know it accepts as well
08:59:04 <boekabart> hm, passenger destinations will solve that I hope :)
08:59:10 <Ailure> compared to the amount it accepts
09:00:00 <Ailure> some kind of demand system might help too
09:00:24 <boekabart> first we need custom bridgeheads and diagonal bridges :)
09:00:25 <Ailure> mostly so players can't do insane dropoffs like that :p
09:00:51 <Ailure> Some newIndustries does this already infact
09:01:18 <Ailure> and if the stock get's full, the industry stops accepting the cargo
09:01:22 <boekabart> would be goo, imagine you'll have your goods-from-factory trains running around a number of cities until empty (cities accept only limited amount per month)
09:02:22 <boekabart> basically the same could apply for goods-accepting building right, they stock a limited amount, and consume so-much per month/tileLoop
09:02:53 <boekabart> i'm pretty sure there's actually room for that in the current map array, right?
09:03:29 <boekabart> that would make goods runs so much more realistic....
09:04:15 <boekabart> and much more interesting
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09:05:01 <boekabart> we'd need another order type: go there if not empty (actually, that could be done by not going somewhere if UNLOAD is set and train==empty
09:05:38 <TheJosh> what about 'go non-stop once full'
09:06:43 <boekabart> i'm just saying... would be a good feature anyway, to not-go somewhere if it's just to unload and train is empty
09:07:00 <TheJosh> for loops with a piece going off that goes to the unload point direct, and a waypoint so it goes to one if theres room or the other if its full
09:07:05 <peter1138> for buildings, no room in the map array
09:07:11 <peter1138> for industries and towns it could be done easily
09:07:42 <boekabart> peter1138: How come there's no room in the map array for buildings, what do the need to much data for?
09:07:43 <TheJosh> imagine a system where orders could be fully programmed with if statements and stuff
09:07:58 * TheJosh thinks about making a patch
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09:08:17 <boekabart> TheJosh: squirrel ;)
09:08:59 <peter1138> boekabart: heh, newhouses
09:09:05 <peter1138> animation stages and the like
09:09:21 <peter1138> most aren't animated but that's besides the point
09:12:20 <TheJosh> i also think we need a system where you can say (orders):
09:12:35 <TheJosh> at station: load 50% coal
09:12:58 <TheJosh> load/unload passengers
09:13:25 <TheJosh> i have some really complex ideas for stations. ill put togehter a example screenshot of my ideas...
09:14:37 <Brianetta> Better than a screenshot would be a design doc
09:14:52 <Brianetta> show how you expect everything to function
09:15:01 <Brianetta> let the devs see how that could work with the existing code
09:16:11 <boekabart> peter1138: map.m7 is also taken up by newhouses already?
09:16:21 <peter1138> of course, that's why it was added
09:16:42 <TheJosh> yeah. i should of gotten pre-approval before i made my 'found a town' patch
09:16:49 <boekabart> but... per town is weird, since acceptance of goods @ a station is building-based right?
09:16:56 <TheJosh> now i think the devs dont want it because it will stuff up the game balance or soemthing
09:18:37 <kaan> TheJosh: making a patch just because you feel like it is a perfectly valid reason.
09:19:07 <boekabart> ... but not every idea can make it into the game, it'd become a mess
09:19:48 <TheJosh> kann: but if it gets into trunk its sooo much better.
09:20:34 <peter1138> no approval is needed, heh
09:20:41 <peter1138> just don't make things too big
09:20:41 <kaan> TheJosh: you meant to say that it is good for your ego, right? ;)
09:20:52 <peter1138> like my original diagonal tracks under bridges patch
09:20:58 <peter1138> and the subsidiaries patch
09:21:06 <TheJosh> kann: no its not that
09:21:20 <TheJosh> kann: but if 3 people play it, whats the point?
09:22:03 <boekabart> TheJosh: YOU play it, YOU enjoy it, that's the main point. Every other person is a bonus right?
09:22:50 <TheJosh> i never have enough money to found a town
09:22:59 <kaan> TheJosh: if noone like a bizarre peice of art and its isnt shown in galleries, will it make the artist less of an artist?
09:23:01 <boekabart> getting it in trunk is mainly ego, i think, plus you won't have to worry about maintaining your patch anymore... which actually might be the biggest plus.
09:24:02 <TheJosh> i would just like to see others enjoy it. meh, i dont really mind, people already enjoy the 'soem towns are larger when the game starts' patch
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09:24:31 <kaan> well i can understand that point of view
09:27:49 <kaan> when i was deciding on if i should go ahead and make bottd the major points were that it would be useful for the community as a whole and that people would use it ... that and i would like to be able to play specific builds online with my brother who dont know anything about compiling ;)
09:28:58 <TheJosh> bottd being BuildOTTD?
09:29:13 <TheJosh> im on linux, so no use for me
09:29:19 <kaan> well, its useful for its purpose
09:29:49 <kaan> i had a single semester course in it back in 2002 :P
09:30:24 <TheJosh> enough to port the app to c++/gtk2 for cross-platform support (just an idea)
09:31:33 <kaan> I thought a lot about that when i was designing it ... my reasoning is that it is just soooo much easyer to make a perl script on linux than to make this app for it
09:31:55 <kaan> it would be a rewrite anyway
09:32:17 <kaan> and on top of that i cant imagine how it would be for mac
09:32:28 <TheJosh> although gtk is broader than linux
09:32:33 <Rubidium> kaan: assume that it's the same as for unix
09:32:35 <TheJosh> gtk in windows/linux and osx
09:32:54 <TheJosh> you would also need some platform-specific code
09:33:28 <kaan> well if you look at the code base you will discover that most code in there is platform specific
09:33:50 <Rubidium> just use the generic unix approach: build a console version that does everything and then make a simple graphical shell around that
09:34:32 <kaan> yes, and that console version would be a bash script going "./configure && make"
09:34:42 <kaan> ok thats a it simplistic
09:34:56 <Rubidium> kaan: no, it would revert and patch too
09:35:37 <kaan> but my point is that bottd is made for widows filesystem with mingw in it, not at all like linux where you can toss most of those limitations and just make a simple script
09:35:46 <Rubidium> kaan: don't forget to revert *and* remove files that aren't in svn when applying a new patch
09:36:29 <Rubidium> otherwise when you apply the same patch once again, the new files (that aren't in svn) will contain the code twice making compilation fail
09:38:15 <kaan> Rubidium: im working on revert, its on my todo list :) those errors are too strange for the unsuspecting user and a design goal was to make it easy for the playtester without much knowledge
09:38:39 <peter1138> not for desolator to build binaries all the time?
09:39:01 <kaan> well, maybe he could do it anyway ;)
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09:40:55 <kaan> one of my design assumptions was that people on linux was probably way to skilled to need bottd has been punctured though, i have seen a few linux users who could have used a simple entrypoint
09:44:00 <Brianetta> Some Linux users don't even have a compiler installed
09:44:21 <Brianetta> It's no longer standard on many distributions
09:44:58 <Brianetta> Now Linux is starting to reach mainstream, there are more clueless users, too
09:45:08 <kaan> well thats where i failed to know reality, back in 1999 when i first tried linux it was its prime feature for me :)
09:46:32 <Ammller> ottd is still the only thing I have compiled on my linux box
09:47:41 <kaan> Ammller: if you want to go have an initiation rite then i can reccomend kompiling a new kernel custom build for your hardware :)
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09:51:30 <Ammller> kaan: I belong to the category Brianetta introduced...
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09:52:16 <kaan> hardly, you did after all compile ottd on your own :)
09:52:19 <Brianetta> I didn't introduce it. I am just a witness.
09:52:42 <Ammller> I use openoffice more than the compiler
09:52:48 <Brianetta> Linux doesn't give me that smug, elitist feeling any more ):
09:52:55 <Brianetta> Back in the early nineties it did
09:53:42 <Ammller> and sadly sometimes, I need Virtualbox for MS Access
09:54:08 <kaan> i like both linux and windows, makes me want to go get a mac mini for some reason
09:56:20 <kaan> now i have to ask you why :P
09:56:30 <Brianetta> I upgraded from DOS to Linux a long time ago
09:56:35 <Brianetta> Windows has never been as useable for me
09:56:45 <Brianetta> You can't even have a decent sloppy focus
09:56:57 <Brianetta> If you want to use a window, Windows forces it to the top
09:57:16 <Brianetta> I remember trying the Windows 95 beta
09:57:26 <Brianetta> but it wasn't as good as my X workstation with FVWM
09:57:30 <Rubidium> Windows is basically the equivalent to the unix kernel (conceptually). For windows you need to install like a thousand applications to become really useful
09:57:31 <Brianetta> which multitasked better
09:57:49 <Brianetta> Command line multitasking is something I miss on Windows
09:58:01 <Rubidium> and for Windows you do not have the choice to not have a GUI
09:58:02 <Brianetta> being able to run a job, and kick it into the background if it's taking a while
09:58:16 <Brianetta> in Windows I have to stat a new cmd.exe, and do without the command history
09:58:29 <boekabart> Brianetta: That's what 4nt is for
09:58:33 <kaan> command line multitasking in dos would have been useful, in windows not so much
09:58:40 <Brianetta> boekabart: I used 4dos on DOS
09:58:46 <Brianetta> but third party apps have one huge problem
09:58:50 <Brianetta> They're not ubiquitous
09:59:04 * boekabart is looking that word up in the dictionary
09:59:04 <Brianetta> You go to sort out some machine, and it won't have all your favourite third party toys
09:59:42 <kaan> Brianetta: thats true on every platform
10:00:00 <kaan> although i do miss vi a lot on win
10:00:11 <Brianetta> kaan: Yes - which is why a system which includes good design as standard is my favourite.
10:00:37 <Brianetta> Every Unix shell supports Ctrl-Z and then bg to give you the prompt back
10:01:45 <kaan> we can easily agree that unix/linux have the better systems design of the two
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10:02:20 <kaan> but at least for now, windows more generally has the better user experience
10:03:38 <Ammller> kaan: you mean, they have the better marketing?
10:04:21 <kaan> Ammller: no i mean that they windows has the best overall userfriendlyness
10:04:36 <Rubidium> kaan: for me windows' user experience isn't really that great
10:05:08 <kaan> well, its not pretty if that is what you mean
10:05:26 <Ammller> wll, that is very subjective
10:05:29 <kaan> its not working perfectly eighter
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10:06:48 <Ammller> I have bought a new Dell 6400, cleared everything, installed vista and suse
10:07:09 <kaan> but when the scores is counted most people like windows better: and hold your horses here, im not talking sales or install base, im talking what i have seen around and what i personally think about both OS
10:07:29 <Rubidium> kaan: most of the install base is due to ignorance
10:07:38 <Ammller> suse is running without any additional work, im afraid to every bring vista running with wlan etc.
10:07:47 * peter1138 ponders if he could run his windows apps in a vm these days
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10:07:56 <peter1138> visual studio & outlook, mostly
10:08:40 <kaan> Rubidium: i agree, but that doesnt alter my argument one bit
10:10:03 <Rubidium> kaan: If you would pay $huge amount so all major computer manufacturers only deliver their hardware with Debian, I guess Debian becomes the "best" OS
10:11:42 <kaan> Rubidium: in a real world scenario that might be true, but that doesnt alter my opninion that windows has the better user overall user experience
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10:12:40 <Rubidium> kaan: and that's because everybody thinks linux is not used widely enough to develop for
10:12:46 <boekabart> kaan: Rubidium: please stop this discussion now
10:13:31 <kaan> are you sure Rubidium? i would have said it was because the userinterface is well thought through
10:14:31 <kaan> ok, ill stop, its not like im gaining anything by this futile attempt to explain my views ;)
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10:42:58 <geoffk> peter1138, its possible to run windows vm's on Xen and vmware if your cpu supports VT technology, i never tried it though
10:43:07 <kaan> well i have read those links now, and i happen to agree on most points made. But that still doesnt change anything in respect to the overall user experience being better on windows :P
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12:28:13 <boekabart> does signal gui + autocomplete have any chance of getting included in trunk?
12:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> probably not in combination...
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14:21:48 <SpComb> seems to be pretty popular, that !logs thing
14:22:56 <Belugas> yeah... more popular than the bookmark thing ;)
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14:23:23 <peterbrett> That's pretty cool
14:24:30 <SpComb> what is pretty cool? The !logs thing? Is not, it's ugly
14:25:05 <peter1138> it's better than the new one ;p
14:25:22 <peter1138> less crap around it
14:25:25 <SpComb> fixed at GMT+3! No automatic polling! Looks ugly!
14:25:38 <SpComb> you mean the grey background?
14:25:55 <peter1138> no, i mean the junk that takes up room
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14:26:51 <peter1138> let's make it a tiny window with a scrollbar :/
14:27:11 <SpComb> it's larger than the old one! Well, perhaps less wide, but as tall
14:27:14 <peterbrett> SpComb: Broken in Konqueror
14:27:21 <SpComb> and you can make it taller (currently only in one direction)
14:27:42 <SpComb> peterbrett: broken in what way? I don't have konqueror available, I've only tested on Firefox 2.0
14:28:27 <peterbrett> New text appears, but on the same line as the last thing said, so the frame gets wider and wider
14:28:36 <SpComb> and, of course, the layout of the page is changeable
14:28:53 <peterbrett> And Konqueror passes ACID2, so I suspect an ECMAScript problem.
14:29:07 <SpComb> well, sounds like more of a HTML issue
14:30:52 <SpComb> I think sticking each line into their own element (possibly even a div, scrapping the pre) would probably help with that
14:31:21 <peterbrett> you need something with display:block
14:31:35 <peterbrett> So yeah, div would do it
14:31:54 <SpComb> currently I'm just very careful with my newlines
14:32:13 <SpComb> but aside from that, isn't it nice and spiffy? :P
14:32:27 <SpComb> I quite like the layout myself, but I guess not everyone likes the same thing
14:32:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> i agree with peter1138. leave out the stuff on the left, maybe make it at the top, or a separate menu page
14:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> it takes up precious room for no reason
14:34:38 <SpComb> a seperate menu page for the channel selection? :o
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14:34:58 <SpComb> and sticking a two-level tree horizontally...?
14:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> why the need for a tree?
14:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> why have the "tree" fully visible at all times?
14:36:18 <SpComb> have it drop down from a button in the top nav menu? That might work
14:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, it would also work if you just have a line for each tree level, and only have one branch of the tree open at the same time, like if you click on "oftc" on the first line, the channels on oftc show up in the second line
14:41:44 <SpComb> then I'd need to somehow fit in three lines (or figure out some way to have them appear, ugh, javascript navigation)
14:42:07 <peter1138> yay for css navigation
14:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> and the "show more lines" thing looks pretty useless... you could make that exponentially or something, so you don't have to click 200 times to get the logs of the whole day
14:43:04 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause2: it's still an early model of that feature, I'm trying to work in full-featured scrolling
14:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> and possibly enter date and time, and a search function
14:43:55 <SpComb> but yes, scroll to date/time/start of day
14:44:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> that search thing is really invisible
14:44:33 <SpComb> I'll have to do a fair bit of reworking to do the scrolling sensibly
14:44:50 <SpComb> hey, I'm not a UI designer :P
14:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> and about the konqueror problem: the first new line appears allright, but all consecutive new lines get added to the same line
14:45:45 <SpComb> yeah, it's probably some issue with there being a newline somewhere, or it not regarding the <script> as a newline, or *something*
14:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> and the last line has graphics glitches, when you scroll to the right, the black background sticks out to the left
14:46:05 <SpComb> having a seperate block-level element for each line should clear that up (and will be part of the scrolling thing)
14:46:44 <SpComb> hopefully using a div will let me have it wrap the text as well, which doesn't really work with the current pre setup
14:58:47 <SpComb> peter1138: also, would the three levels of navigation bars be visible all the time, or would they appear when hovered over?
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15:38:05 <boekabart> Using the waterfall graphics leppka made.
15:39:12 <Bjarni> how does the waterfall work with ships?
15:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> boekabart: the sprite looks like an obiwan in the .grf
15:39:42 <boekabart> Eddi|zuHause2: ????
15:39:47 <peter1138> doesn't tile well :)
15:39:58 <peter1138> boekabart, how does that play with the other water patch stuff?
15:40:01 <boekabart> Bjarni: do they look like a ship could travel up there!?
15:40:23 <boekabart> peter1138: this is the patch you did some work on too
15:40:37 <Bjarni> <boekabart> Bjarni: do they look like a ship could travel up there!? <--- well. It depends on the ship. It's not like it's vertical waterfalls
15:40:43 <peter1138> but the more interesting rivers with flow...?
15:40:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> boekabart: the sprite is one pixel off, it has white and black lines where they don't belong
15:41:02 <boekabart> Bjarni: a hovercraft maybe. Those spots are rocks, not floating obiwans :)
15:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> an "off by one" -> "obiwan"
15:41:18 <boekabart> Eddi|zuHause2: I know, read the post ;) waiting for leppka to fix them
15:41:40 <Bjarni> oh they are rocks. I thought it was the water itself
15:41:51 <Bjarni> why are the waterfalls so rocky?
15:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't really like the rock things...
15:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> it does not look right
15:43:20 <peter1138> Bjarni, so boats can't go up it ;p
15:43:43 <Bjarni> the white stuff doesn't really look like rocks
15:44:12 <peter1138> it's bits of iceberg stuck, maybe
15:44:22 <boekabart> Sorry, I'm not a pixel artist myself... I'm depending on other people to do that I'm afraid
15:44:27 <Bjarni> <peter1138> Bjarni, so boats can't go up it ;p <-- I kind of figured that out when the rocks were mentioned
15:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> how would rivers in the desert look like?
15:45:16 <boekabart> Actually I didn't test that with this latest version... The waterfall tiles are type Clear Water now (as opposed to Shore) so they might actually.
15:45:31 <boekabart> Eddi|zuHause2: Try it. Everything's right there
15:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't feel like compiling today
15:46:12 <boekabart> i just added a win32 binary
15:46:59 <Bjarni> a computer set up to do some real work can't use a win32 binary :p
15:48:28 <boekabart> Actually leppka posted better rocks already, but not as a grf.
15:48:54 <boekabart> and I don't know how to grfify pngs (mostly because they are 24bpp)
15:51:09 <Bjarni> the easy way is to do nothing
15:51:24 <Bjarni> and then hope that the 32 bit branch will be finished before you are finished
15:51:37 <Bjarni> converting 24 bit to 32 is no problem
15:51:50 <boekabart> well same problem: you lose the animation
15:51:54 <boekabart> Bjarni: I was actually hoping to get involved in te 32bpp branch
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15:52:41 <Bjarni> if you can figure out how to code stuff like that, then I'm not the one to stop you from trying :)
15:52:53 <Brianetta> w00t, my Filofax is in Glasgow
15:53:14 <Brianetta> Train nuts, is there a Royal Mail service from Glasgow through Newcastle tonight?
15:53:27 <Brianetta> Bjarni: It's like a DayRunner, but British
15:53:39 <Bjarni> wtf is a DayRunner? :p
15:53:51 <boekabart> Bjarni: stuff like 32bpp?
15:53:58 <Brianetta> A six-ring loose-leaf paper based personal organiser
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15:54:34 <Bjarni> that's the stuff you get from printers
15:55:08 <Bjarni> and if you need a blank one (I don't know why you would want that), you need to print a blank document :p
15:55:15 <bubersson> boekabart: Are you sure, that this win32 bin really includes your patch?
15:55:30 <bubersson> Or how can I make the river?
15:55:53 <Bjarni> maybe you should write that somewhere where people read it
15:56:01 <boekabart> it's in the thread i'm sure
15:56:02 <Bjarni> like a comment in the code
15:56:28 <boekabart> Hm I just remembered I have a 0.5.0 32bpp version with palette animation working
15:56:33 <Brianetta> That's the one I've bought
15:57:02 <boekabart> ... it doesn't load tar files though, just data/32bpp/<spriteID>.png
15:57:22 <Bjarni> boekabart: cool. It's a start
15:57:30 <boekabart> actually it's a dead end
15:57:55 <boekabart> but I think the approach I took might please the devs
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15:57:56 <Bjarni> the 32 bit branch moved on and it isn't that bad anymore
15:58:16 <boekabart> Bjarni: you missed the news i guess. It was stopped-ish
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16:02:04 <hylje> 32bpp also brings alpha channel!
16:04:18 <Bjarni> well yeah I missed that blog
16:04:28 <boekabart> ...although I'd suggest to use only 4 of them, and the other 4 for company colors.
16:04:31 <Bjarni> I was more concerned with meeting a deadline at uni
16:04:38 <Bjarni> man, I'm way too serious :p
16:08:05 <boekabart> Now I'm off to Prague; I'll talk to you guys and ladies again on sunday I think. Buh Bye!
16:08:13 <Bjarni> boekabart: do you feel like you are up to the task to look at the graphical stuff?
16:08:27 <hylje> i rather have the rivers stuff first!
16:08:35 <Bjarni> they lack internet and IRC in Prague?
16:08:59 <glx> boekabart: you don't need to use the "w" in the grf name (all openttd grfs use windows palette)
16:09:00 <boekabart> Bjarni: I intend to steer clear of them mostly yes
16:09:02 <Bjarni> hylje: I didn't say anything about the order of coding stuff
16:09:37 <boekabart> Bjarni: I want nothing more. But need the time. After I've finished moving to my new house I think I'll apply to join the dev team
16:10:09 <boekabart> that'll be august/september ish. Until then I just try to make time as much as I can, but it isn't too much
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18:38:10 <skidd13> I worked a bit on my move orders patch. Can one of the dev's check it again? Thanks
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19:31:43 <Wolf01> there's anybody who want to join a framework project? (something like GameMaker, but coded in c/c++ and fully compiled, not interpreted)
19:32:29 <boekabart> Wolf01: What type of games?
19:33:02 <Wolf01> maybe ogre or ode for phisics
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19:41:57 <Belugas> Dancing with wolves....
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20:09:08 <Belugas> skidd13, new patch looks clean, from code style point of view
20:13:00 <skidd13> Any comments from the other dev's?
20:13:18 <Belugas> and a good job at rearranging the widgets arrays
20:13:53 <Wolf01> the new orders window?
20:15:34 <Belugas> i wonder if "+ int sel = (y - 15) / 10;" could be un-magic-number'ed
20:15:47 <skidd13> I'll think over a nice solution
20:16:11 <Belugas> and what's good : there is no patch...
20:16:14 <skidd13> Another thing: there are three diffrent widgets. I thought over merging them.
20:16:26 * Belugas goes back to work@work
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20:22:59 <Belugas> watch out, then... merging widget is sometimes good, but it had to be VERY carefully crafted
20:23:15 <Belugas> some bad experience...
20:23:27 <glx> skidd13: you didn't updated openttd.grf md5
20:24:42 <Desolator> gfx, I can't seem to compile r9856, I'll try without skidd13's patch
20:29:45 <skidd13> glx: what switches do I've to use get this type of md5?
20:30:42 <Desolator> I can't seem to compile your patch
20:31:03 <boekabart> (10:09:46 PM) Belugas: skidd13, new patch looks clean
20:31:05 <Desolator> might be a bug in the nightly, if that fails too, I'll pont a build log
20:31:35 <Desolator> Win XP Pro, latest Platorm SDK, Lastest DirectX SDK, MS VC++ 2005 Express
20:31:42 <boekabart> 9856 itself compiles fine with msvc, just did so
20:31:49 <Desolator> misc.obj : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "unsigned char _saved_scrollpos_zoom" (?_saved_scrollpos_zoom@@3EA)
20:31:49 <Desolator> ..\objs\Win32\Release\\openttd.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 1 unresolved externals
20:32:06 <Desolator> this screws the compilation, so no openttd.exe
20:32:19 <boekabart> is there an added cpp file in the patch?
20:32:33 <boekabart> if so, needs to be added to the openttd_vs80.vcproj
20:32:44 <Desolator> this was the nightly...no patch
20:32:57 <Desolator> same with and without patch...
20:33:07 <boekabart> smth you did wrong then, I compiled it a couple of hours ago with no probs
20:33:15 <glx> no problem for me with msvc
20:33:23 <Desolator> though if i'm not mistaken, there was a new cpp adde in this revision
20:33:32 <Desolator> I'll revert and check
20:33:55 <Belugas> [16:29] <boekabart> (10:09:46 PM) Belugas: skidd13, new patch looks clean <--- not fair! I said it LOOKS clean. I'm at the office, i cannot compile it!
20:34:03 <Belugas> wel... i can...but... that's not the point
20:39:00 <skidd13> about the magic numbers:
20:39:00 <skidd13> int sel = (y - (w->widget[ORDER_WIDGET_ORDER_LIST].top + 1)) / 10;
20:39:00 <skidd13> Thats not really nice
20:40:42 <Desolator> is it just TortoiseSVN or there's no change between r9855 & r9856?
20:40:48 <skidd13> I think a comment will do a better job.
20:41:55 <boekabart> 9855 is that change
20:41:56 * Desolator opens MSVC++ Express and presses F7
20:42:33 <boekabart> Desolator: hope you chose debug mode
20:42:39 <Desolator> btw why don't the versino numbers appear on custom builds?
20:42:43 <boekabart> release takes a looong time code generating
20:43:27 <Belugas> that's because you're using MSVC, Desolator
20:43:35 <Belugas> as well as me, by the way ;)
20:43:59 <Desolator> well, I never got problems with MSVC
20:44:05 <Desolator> I guess M$ must brake something
20:44:11 <glx> use mingw + svn cli to get the rev string
20:44:35 <Desolator> I can't get MinGW compile
20:45:00 <Desolator> I get the "X has enconutered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for this convenience" message
20:49:38 <Desolator> O.o now it compiles with no error
20:50:47 <Desolator> hmm, maybe MSVC doesn't like spaces in the paths anymore
20:56:18 <skidd13> Fixed the md5 and updated the patch
20:57:30 <Desolator> no...I now must cancel the compilation....
20:58:21 <Desolator> of course, MSVC crashed....
20:58:42 <skidd13> that's why I changed to linux
20:59:12 <Desolator> sorry, I don't want to cancel my media player...
21:02:38 <Desolator> alright, I'll go to another server, I'll psot the binaries when they're done
21:04:32 <boekabart> skidd13: if you url the thread w/ patch, i can have a win32 bin up in a minute
21:11:22 <boekabart> it says, openttd file corrupt or missing
21:11:43 <skidd13> you'll need the attatched openttd.grf too
21:15:04 <skidd13> md5sum of openttd.grf should be c9a8f601aaa95e097d35a9a53ec663a0
21:16:07 <boekabart> but digest is different
21:17:09 <boekabart> digest say d41d8c....
21:17:15 <boekabart> sorry, but gotta go now
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21:28:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9857 /trunk/src/oldloader.cpp: -Fix: loading of TTDP savegames with features that OTTD has.
21:33:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9858 /branches/0.5/ (console_cmds.c oldloader.c):
21:33:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r9771, r9856):
21:33:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Feature: Add password protected status to 'players' (network server) console command (r9771)
21:33:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Loading some TTDP savegames caused an instant assertion on loading (r9857)
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21:35:23 <Ammler> could it be, that his source can't be compiled in Linux?
21:35:28 <Sacro|Laptop> not heard of him
21:36:03 <Sacro|Laptop> Ammler: is source available?
21:36:25 <Sleepie> well as I read the german forums from time to time I have seen it, but not tested
21:36:47 <Ammler> If you change (and add) source with Visual C++, is it only for win then?
21:36:48 <Sacro|Laptop> mmm, it looks alright
21:36:56 <Sacro|Laptop> it should merge fine
21:37:18 <Sleepie> if I remember it correctly he mentioned that he won't release the source, because it isn't compileable on linux yet :P
21:37:39 <Sacro|Laptop> well tell him he has to
21:38:16 <Sacro|Laptop> if he releases Windows binaries, he must also release the associated Windows source
21:38:19 <Sacro|Laptop> regardless of linux
21:38:21 <Sleepie> he'll do cleanup first
21:38:33 <Sacro|Laptop> thats not the point, the source must still be available
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21:39:08 <Sleepie> I totally agree with you at this point
21:39:50 <Sacro|Laptop> linux compilation doesn't matter, cos he isn't releasing linux source
21:40:22 <Sleepie> I'll just have a look at the thread at the german forums...
21:40:54 <Sacro|Laptop> i'm looking at it
21:41:01 <Sacro|Laptop> but my german is a tad rusty
21:41:27 <Ammler> ask me, if you need translation for something....
21:41:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9859 /branches/0.5/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [0.5] -Prepare 0.5 branch for release of 0.5.2-RC1.
21:42:35 <skidd13> the guy is mad. thats no miniIN thats a MAXI-IN
21:42:49 <Rubidium> skidd13: it's still a mini-MiniIN
21:44:02 <skidd13> I ment the huge ammount of patches
21:44:24 <Rubidium> the amount of patches in that build is small compared to MiniIN
21:45:36 <skidd13> Then my memory play's tricks on me. :(
21:46:41 <Rubidium> there were about 50 patches in MiniIN
21:46:41 <Sacro|Laptop> MiniIN had loads
21:47:25 <Rubidium> and the 10 or so BamBam has is nothing in comparison with that
21:49:27 <Sleepie> he has also an tt-forums account 'BamBam' so just PM him for a request of the source
21:50:40 <skidd13> One question about the noai branch. Will the AI be able to coop in sigleplayer with a player?
21:51:34 <Rubidium> at this moment it can't
21:51:46 <Rubidium> however, it might be technically feasible
21:52:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9860 /tags/0.5.2-RC1/ (6 files): -Release 0.5.2-RC1.
21:54:55 <skidd13> singleplayer cooped AI would bring auto updated bridges or auto train per station number in my mind
21:56:18 <Rubidium> auto train per station number?
21:56:43 <skidd13> adapt the number of trains per shared order
22:27:35 <elmex> someone told me that double-45deg turns are good because it slows down trains so that more trains fit on a track
22:28:18 <Rubidium> that's technically correct
22:28:39 <Rubidium> in a traffic jam there are more cars per square meter than when everybody drive 100 km/h
22:30:22 <elmex> i would say more potential
22:30:27 <Tefad> i'd rather have fewer faster trains
22:30:43 <elmex> two stations put trains on a mainline with double-45-turns
22:30:52 <Tefad> with less infrastructure required
22:30:55 <elmex> and at the next junction it jams up
22:31:02 <elmex> (which has the same double-45-turns)
22:31:21 <Tefad> there is a point at which faster trains cost more than they're worth
22:31:27 <maddy> Brianetta, do you start your server again?
22:35:14 <Rubidium> Brianetta: and when you (re)start your server, I think you should try 0.5.2-RC1 ;)
22:38:57 <elmex> i guess the advantage of slow networks is that it's easier to build
22:39:10 <Sleepie> Sacro: I have read through BamBam's 'miniIN' thread at the german forums
22:39:49 <Sleepie> there is no source downloadable yet
22:40:19 <Brianetta> Rubidium: I'll update to 0.5.2 when it's out
22:40:23 <Brianetta> I'm nasty like that
22:40:46 <Sleepie> but he is looking for someone who will provide linux support
22:42:08 <Brianetta> dbg: [YAPFt]! 50- 49 us - 4 rounds - 0 open - 3 closed - CHR 0.0% - c-1(sc-1, ts0, o0) --
22:42:08 <Brianetta> dbg: [YAPFr]- 10- 41 us - 9 rounds - 8 open - 8 closed - CHR 0.0% - c771(sc0, ts0, o0) --
22:42:08 <Brianetta> dbg: fixing lru 17265, inuse=1076460
22:42:22 <michi_cc> Rubidium: on the way
22:42:38 <Sleepie> meaning someone who maintains the sources for linux compatibility
22:43:38 <Rubidium> Brianetta: 0.5.1 seems to crash when somebody destroys a bridge with a vehicle on the ramp
23:59:39 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
