IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-05-09
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04:26:06 <Nigel> nearly worse than freenode! :P
04:26:20 <Nigel> (it'd be worse, if they then sent 100 global notices to explain it)
04:26:48 <Touqen> I got banned for "network flood"
04:26:53 <Touqen> What does that even mean?
04:27:02 <Touqen> Service migration I imagine?
04:27:09 <Nigel> Touqen: Network Services went nutso
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06:45:35 <valhallasw> intelligent network flood protection >_<
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06:48:00 <TheJosh> or better said, where is everyone?
06:48:19 <valhallasw> booted from the network
06:48:48 <valhallasw> a service upgrade with a bug in the flood autokill
06:50:01 <TheJosh> so everyone that ususally stays logged in all the time got kicked?
06:55:24 <TheJosh> so valhallasw, have you seen my 'Found a Town' patch?
06:59:56 <Phazorx> did you change the price?
07:00:17 <TheJosh> its now based on the industry price like the other town things
07:00:34 <Phazorx> so like 15M at least ?
07:00:49 <Phazorx> i can that being so exploted in MP
07:00:55 <TheJosh> no, its a tad over 7mill (at the start of the game)
07:01:29 <Phazorx> it gives you 2 most lurative kinds of cargo
07:01:35 <Phazorx> and unlimitted expandability
07:01:55 <TheJosh> so Phazorx, do you do much/any development?
07:02:27 <Phazorx> i normally not even looking in this channel actually
07:02:36 <Phazorx> but i do submit bugs or features
07:03:02 <TheJosh> dang...you have no sway for getting it into trunk
07:03:03 <Phazorx> if i see a point that is possible to implement and it has not been done yet
07:03:36 <TheJosh> hows 14.5mill (at the start of the game)
07:03:56 <Phazorx> 25% of player funds would be nice
07:03:57 <valhallasw> TheJosh: there are some strange things in your patch
07:04:00 <TheJosh> that will become 30mill so quickly
07:04:17 <Phazorx> TheJosh: inflation isnt used often actually
07:04:21 <valhallasw> no, I'm just not paying attention
07:05:44 <valhallasw> TheJosh: and you might want to split your patch up; one adding the function comments and one adding your functions
07:06:21 <valhallasw> and what does InteractiveRandom(); do?
07:06:43 <Phazorx> isn't that system seeded random?
07:06:52 <TheJosh> InteractiveRandom() is basically Random(), but it uses a different seed so you dont desync network games
07:07:42 <TheJosh> and the name gen function that uses it is only called by the client that builds the town (so yea, all playes have the same town name)
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07:08:00 <Phazorx> oh... you can not name it ?
07:08:10 <Phazorx> do you get a statue and rating automatically ?
07:09:57 <valhallasw> town ratings are 1000
07:10:24 <Phazorx> do you get exclusive rights too ? :)
07:10:30 <Phazorx> kidna would have made sense
07:10:43 <valhallasw> that is, ratings are 1000 for founder; exclusive rights I don't know
07:11:27 <Phazorx> btw if you feel like building valhallasw cooper's PS need some hubs :)
07:12:29 <TheJosh> the founder gets a double-dose of rating
07:12:42 <valhallasw> not this week Phazorx; no time
07:12:54 <Phazorx> valhallasw: sad, i hope you are doing soemthig fun tho
07:13:28 <TheJosh> or statue (it looked silly having a statue in a town of like 100 people)
07:13:29 <Phazorx> TheJosh: suggest to think about that :)
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07:13:43 <TheJosh> what? statue or exclusive rights?
07:13:59 <TheJosh> i was going to have the founder company name listed on the town gui screen
07:14:12 <TheJosh> but ill do that in another patch
07:14:21 <Phazorx> status is for fun - but kinda make sense since i doubt there are other chances to mention player's name
07:14:48 <TheJosh> you can always rename it
07:14:52 <Phazorx> i take it all roads in it are town owned rather than player?
07:15:05 <Phazorx> TheJosh: in network game?
07:15:18 <valhallasw> renaming always is possible
07:15:35 <TheJosh> Phazorx: if you build roads first and then dump the town in it, the roads you made will still be owned by you!
07:15:37 <Phazorx> valhallasw: i dont recall it being an option in MP games
07:15:52 <Phazorx> TheJosh: was just a question :)
07:16:01 <TheJosh> Phazorx, valhallasw: you can only rename if your the host i think
07:16:08 <Phazorx> i figure you just used generate function
07:16:28 <Phazorx> it's just funding town is expensive as it should be
07:16:37 <Phazorx> and there is no real way to secure your property
07:16:40 <valhallasw> I don't call 7M expensive
07:16:54 <TheJosh> patch almost released
07:16:56 <Phazorx> relatively it is very expensive
07:17:36 <TheJosh> you can now get the very latest (with the new price)
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07:18:29 <TheJosh> have not tested patch yet
07:18:31 <Phazorx> owning roads would be nice but nothing major, exclusive right should be easy to do and does make a lot of sense to me
07:19:07 <TheJosh> although you only get that for a year...
07:19:21 <Phazorx> perhaps you can enhance it a bit?
07:19:34 <Phazorx> i'm not sure how it works tho
07:19:49 <valhallasw> 'Exclusive rights: 5 years for the price of 3'
07:20:02 <Phazorx> what is the proce for it standard tho ?
07:20:22 <Phazorx> thinking about it - i never ever claimed it
07:20:52 <TheJosh> if you have a good network you make heaps anyway
07:20:59 <valhallasw> can other players see that you have exclusive rights?
07:21:17 <TheJosh> and if you dont like the compeditors, you can always buy them out and delete them or something
07:21:44 <Phazorx> well TheJosh i always tend to think about MP and exploitability
07:22:02 <Phazorx> it would suck a lot to build a town and have someone eslse making profit off it instead of you
07:22:22 <Phazorx> that's what i meant about securing investments
07:22:33 <Phazorx> doesnt stop someone froms crewing around with it tho
07:22:57 <valhallasw> Phazorx: when you fund an industry, other people can use it, too
07:22:57 <Phazorx> unless you own the roads
07:23:10 <Phazorx> valhallasw: i did that many time in MP
07:23:15 <TheJosh> although other people profiting off your town is just their intellegence
07:23:23 <Phazorx> i usualy 1st build station layout and network then fun it
07:23:30 <Phazorx> so by the time it is done - i dont care
07:23:44 <Phazorx> for town - that aproach sint really usuful since it expands
07:30:38 <TheJosh> Phazorx: so you reacken the founder should get 1 year of exclusive?
07:30:42 <TheJosh> Phazorx: i guess i could add that
07:31:23 <Phazorx> 1 year is very easy i presume
07:31:35 <Phazorx> more would be ncie (configurable may be?)
07:31:44 <Phazorx> but i'm not sure how it is working
07:32:05 <Phazorx> so perhaps automatic renewal is quite challenging unless there is ingame event manager
07:32:20 <TheJosh> i could do one year rather easy
07:33:28 <TheJosh> to do automatic renewal i would need to change the town struct
07:34:04 <TheJosh> to have a 'is_new_town' flag or something
07:34:15 <TheJosh> and a 'founded_by' variable
07:34:48 <Phazorx> yeah i understand that... again unless there is an event manager and you can queue action multiple times for forced renewal
07:35:40 <TheJosh> not that i know of, only a ticks system, where a function is called regually
07:37:40 <Phazorx> it's a completely different model and i'd same more reliable and demanding
07:38:05 <Phazorx> however havign this many things to check every tick is kinda a lot
07:39:27 <TheJosh> anyway, i have to go make tea
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08:20:42 <boekabart> and now you're flooding AGAIN!!! ;)
08:22:03 <peter1138> bug in the flood protection bot, i guess
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08:29:29 <Nigel> peter1138: FloodServ set a kline for *@*
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08:33:03 <Desolator> I want to change the max amount of loan you can set at the start of the game, but I can't seem to find where it's defined
08:34:13 <Rubidium> (assuming you mean you want to make the limit more than 1 million)
08:34:22 <Desolator> and Peter, is your msn alive?
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09:47:19 <boekabart> openttd.grf changed!? when/why?
09:48:04 <Rubidium> svn log bin/data/openttd.grf
09:48:24 <SpComb> someone restore the topic
09:48:25 <boekabart> that doesn't work here, Rubidium, you should do that in a shell :)
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09:49:37 <Rubidium> boekabart: it works perfectly for me
09:49:56 <boekabart> in the irc window?? :)
09:50:04 <boekabart> r9814: -Fix (r1): Remove the duplicate sign sprite from openttd.grf since it's in the original data files.
09:51:19 <Rubidium> boekabart: well, obviously not in IRC, but make doesn't work in IRC either nor does vim
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10:15:48 <boekabart> yeah, free and fast
10:15:50 <boekabart> (note: this is _NOT_ the deep-sea patch ! )
10:16:09 <Tefad> right.. i just forget what the limitations are
10:16:41 <boekabart> well, just 100 mb storage...
10:17:16 <Tefad> well, is it required to use that silly cookie-cutter editor they provide
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10:18:11 <boekabart> not for hosting files only
10:18:33 <Tefad> i'm going to guess they don't have refer checks eh?
10:18:35 <boekabart> if you just want to put info + files online quickly it's a totally allright service.
10:19:08 <Tefad> most ISPs have direct connection to most popular search sites i think
10:19:59 <Tefad> eh, not so good for yahoo
10:20:44 <boekabart> that's probably only to the search server, not to pages.
10:24:35 <Tefad> goes through the same route, about 2x latency on the server
10:24:57 <Tefad> then again, if i ping www.google.com 1-off i get the same latencies
10:25:22 <Tefad> just depends on what server i get.. it's all distributed craziness : )
10:26:29 <boekabart> It's a whole lot better than the service that Sergej_S is using, that's for sure.
10:26:56 <Thomas[NL]> It floods with different heights?
10:27:28 <boekabart> in this version, v3, the 'source' on the mountain always gives it's 'lowest' neighbour half the difference
10:27:52 <boekabart> actually all tiles do this, but sources 'give' instead of 'share'
10:28:35 <peter1138> gah, fucking rar files
10:29:16 <boekabart> in v4 (which i have at home only), a source (not coast) just gives 1 'water' per tileloop, works a bit better, but you cannot create a mountain lake that way
10:29:42 * peter1138 looks at all the imiages
10:30:21 <boekabart> yeah, that was actually the hardest to do
10:30:32 <boekabart> still doesn't always work, sometimes the water keeps going around in circles
10:30:43 <peter1138> hmm, corner water tiles?
10:30:53 <peter1138> if you load the newwater grf they should show properly
10:31:26 <Thomas[NL]> what is the second source in hill_2sources?
10:32:02 <boekabart> it's 2 tiles 'down' from the 1st
10:32:37 <boekabart> it generates more current, basically as you can see, whole downstream river fills
10:32:57 <peter1138> instead of a single line
10:33:00 <peter1138> that is actually fucking cool
10:33:27 <peter1138> we need a spring sprite for the sources...
10:33:59 <Thomas[NL]> does it have some kind of vaporise mechanism?
10:35:43 <boekabart> vaporise: no, that's hard: there is so little source, and so much 'water surface', everything dries up
10:36:01 <boekabart> as you can see in the shots, we need a shitload of sprites
10:40:56 <peter1138> at least there's no sprite limit any more :)
10:47:12 <Thomas[NL]> how many sloped water-tiles will be needed?
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11:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... springs could have different output depending on season
11:26:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> or random events
11:27:06 <boekabart> but random floodings will require a whole new job in ottd:
11:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> random event: spring output x2/4/8
11:28:25 <peter1138> more like a disaster :)
11:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> this could provide cool flood disasters :)
11:28:40 <boekabart> the whole problem with the patch is that it's so dynamic
11:28:52 <boekabart> the world in ottd has always been static, mainly
11:28:59 <peter1138> i'm thinking we need to modify towngrowth so that it doesn't terraform in a way that'll flood itself
11:29:33 <boekabart> (that actually already happens with polder towns with the deep-sea patch :) )
11:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, it needs severe refining until it is 'production ready' :)
11:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it should be easy, just add a check if the terraforming would affect a coast tile
11:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> you'll also need locks to keep water level in canals constant
11:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> (which is done IRL also)
11:33:09 <peter1138> you know what would be cool
11:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> "are you thinking what i am thinking, pinky?"
11:33:32 <peter1138> if all tile heights could be 1 pixel instead of 8...
11:34:01 <boekabart> Eddi|zuHause3: now THAT was a cool remark... where to download those videos....
11:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, like 256 height levels
11:34:18 <boekabart> peter1138: I was about to write that: I think that is acutally necessary
11:34:39 <peter1138> well ok, i'll join the queue for your babies
11:34:42 <boekabart> v4 has a little bit of that in it... a huge gfx challenge though
11:34:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> but you'll click yourself crazy when doing big terraforming
11:35:19 <boekabart> if your name implies it correct, you're male so how can you possible have my babies?
11:35:42 <peter1138> obviously i'd be a long way down the queue
11:37:54 <boekabart> hm. how about lowering land pixel-by-pixel, making the sides 'walls' like we already have
11:38:00 <boekabart> should be to-tally doable
11:38:38 <Uatec> that looks quite cool boekabart (the water)
11:39:11 <boekabart> hm, like a tile height offset (down only) per tile (not per tile corner)....
11:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you want to have "walls", you'll need to store 4 heights for each tile
11:39:20 * boekabart has something to try tonight
11:39:37 <boekabart> no, just the offset i think.
11:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> or one height, and 3 relative heights
11:40:01 <boekabart> we'll just need wall graphics for all 7/8 heights
11:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, no, if you're going to introduce cliffs, they should actually be possible to span multiple height levels
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11:42:20 <boekabart> don't want cliffs higher than 1 tile
11:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> or like this: on one tile you can have flat (0), shallow slopes (1-8), steep slopes (9-16) and cliffs (>16)
11:42:44 <boekabart> if higher, next tiles sink (collapse)
11:42:59 <boekabart> cliff = wall is between tiles, not on tile
11:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> where 8 would be 1 current slope
11:43:28 <Uatec> boekabart, have you published any of this water fantasia yet?
11:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, based on this distribution, you can choose what to allow on certain tiles
11:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> flat = allow all
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11:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> shallow slope = allow foundations
11:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> steep slopes = allow only roads/rails going along the slopes
11:45:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> cliffs = allow only tunnel entrances
11:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> (or bridge heads)
11:47:02 <boekabart> Actually I find that annoying in current situation: if I have currently a 'cliffed' wall , a bridge cannot start there (without head). :(
11:47:39 <boekabart> uatec: no, not yet published. up in this chat is a link to a rar with a patch but that's not the latest
11:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, needs custombridgeheads, but development was cancelled because of code limitations
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11:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> if i understand the issue correctly, the problem was, that a vehicle on the bridge is virtually on the bridge end tile, but if that tile has a signal on it, the vehicle cannot stop on the bridge, because it does not enter the end tile (it is already there)
11:52:24 <boekabart> i think the whole rail network should be 'mirrored' in a separate graph anyway, so there don't need to be tile limitations for this. plus pathfinding would be a lot faster, right?
11:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, the pathfinder already caches the rail network
11:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, at least long sections without crossings/switches
11:53:41 <peter1138> yapf does, npf/ntp don't
11:53:56 <boekabart> so make the train 'driving' routines use that graph
11:54:05 <boekabart> and then map the position to tilex/y
11:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it's too much an abstraction, i don't think that is easily possible
11:54:33 <boekabart> nothing cool is ever easy
11:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> and it would not solve the problem
11:55:15 <ln-> interesting, in (ubuntu) linux kernel source, there's the following line:
11:55:17 <boekabart> anyway, that's currently too complex for me, don't know the code that well yet
11:55:23 <ln-> #warning TODO: hier muss abgefragt werden, ob skb->len <= 0 ist, und ggf. ein -EINVAL zurückliefern, sonst wird zwar einmal confirmed, aber es regt sich nichts mehr. dies bitte auch für den d-kanal überdenken, sowie für alle andere kartentreiber.
11:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> because you would still have to "stack" tiles, to determine, if the train is on the bridge or under the bridge
11:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> currently, this is determined by the fact that the vehicle is on a bridge head tile
11:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> so a vehicle on the bridge never is on a tile between the bridge heads
11:57:02 <boekabart> also when it's on the middle of the bridge?
11:57:10 <boekabart> aha, i see, didn't know that
11:57:23 <boekabart> so THAT is the reason tunnel/bridge heads can't have signals
11:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's the same as for tunnels
11:58:06 <boekabart> it's just on an offset that is officially too large from that tile... right. interesting solution.. this sawyer guy wasn't so stupid after all :)
11:58:27 <boekabart> that actually doesn't explain at all why 45-degree tunnels and bridges aren't possible
11:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, originally this was only for tunnels, for bridges this was adapted in the bridge branch (by tron/celestar)
11:59:13 <boekabart> so how did bridges work before?
11:59:31 <peter1138> some different magic
11:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> there was an own tile type for bridge middle tiles
12:02:23 <peter1138> "an own" is so wrong in english :)
12:02:39 <boekabart> so why don't 45 deg bridges / tunnels exist?
12:03:22 <boekabart> only reason i can thin of is.. the code to figure out whether a tile has a bridge/tunnel would be a little much slower
12:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> peter1138: what exactly is wrong?
12:04:52 <boekabart> i think the word 'own'
12:04:58 <boekabart> should be 'special' or similar
12:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> it makes perfect sense if you read it like german :)
12:05:52 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: there is a difference between "makes sense" and "is correct English"
12:06:22 <Rubidium> "I am going to have an vacation" would (probably) make sense, but it isn't correct English
12:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> so what i want to know is: "what would be proper english"
12:10:04 <boekabart> "There was a dedicated tile type for bridge middle tiles"
12:10:37 <boekabart> "which could only support very limited tracks/roads under it. It totally sucked."
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12:20:07 <boekabart> So where does 1138 come from
12:22:18 <Rubidium> when he signed up for [random email account] he was the 1138th Peter?
12:23:02 <Uatec> maybe it was 11:38 when he signed up
12:23:37 <peter1138> boekabart: well, starwars i guess, but it was just random
12:23:41 <peter1138> too late to change it now ;p
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12:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> now that looks odd :p
12:26:08 <boekabart> peter`: did no-one ever ask before?
12:27:45 <Uatec> only one person asked about my name
12:27:53 <Uatec> and then they wrote about it in a dutch gaming magazine
12:28:02 <Uatec> i think it was a gaming magazine
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12:28:55 <Uatec> when my web guy gets his thumb out i'll go on to our website and get the url of the online article
12:29:08 <peter`> boekabart: plenty did, most just know ;p
12:30:03 <boekabart> wikipedia: 1138 is the natural number following 1137 and preceding 1139. It is equal to 1000 + 100 + 15 + 15 + 6 + 2.
12:31:27 <Thomas[NL]> Unable to Establish Connection?
12:31:42 <Uatec> boekabart, it's also equal to 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1117
12:31:58 <boekabart> it's truly a magin number
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12:32:12 <Uatec> you found the article, Thomas[NL]?
12:32:18 <boekabart> I'd like to use this as my nick... ₪װ©К
12:32:31 <Zuu> I asked my calculator on my phone what 1138 is, and it answered: 100% 1138 xD
12:32:36 <Uatec> any onw know what it says
12:33:03 <Thomas[NL]> I'm reading it now
12:33:47 <boekabart> it's try: ProjectorGames.co.uk : Unable to establish connection
12:34:27 <Uatec> the web noob has screwed the web server
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12:43:22 <boekabart> is it a group or a company?
12:45:00 <Thomas[NL]> looks verry funny!
12:46:30 <Uatec> we've got a dune 2 remake underway atm
12:46:44 <Uatec> and a secret ottd related project too
12:47:11 <boekabart> maybe ottd is a llittle too slow?
12:47:40 <Uatec> that wont be using the normal PG hardware platform
12:47:47 <Uatec> also, i said ottd 'related'
12:48:47 <Uatec> with which to eat secret food
12:49:16 <kaan> i cant wait to see what you come up with :)
12:49:25 <Belugas> i hope you don't want to implement xml as a nfo replacement...
12:49:34 <boekabart> can't find any details on how the platform works though
12:55:15 *** RobertGrammig has joined #openttd
12:55:24 * boekabart thinks peter` is less smart than peter1138... maybe he should reclaim that nick
12:55:40 <peter`> frankly i hate it now ;p
12:55:47 *** setrodox has joined #openttd
12:56:01 <boekabart> so increase it a bit
12:56:12 <peter`> i'm 1139 on freenode atm
12:56:27 <boekabart> and, does that feel better?
12:56:56 <boekabart> did you try 42? the mythic value of that number is at least comparable
12:57:47 <peter`> no, i think i need to have no number
12:59:30 <Thomas[NL]> do you need the '?
12:59:56 <peter`> yes, because without is already taken
13:00:18 <boekabart> in that case... might cause some confusion
13:12:32 <TrueBrain> hmm, can someone +o DorpsGek? :)
13:13:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek
13:14:02 <boekabart> wow, ChanServ is pretty good at understanding english
13:14:18 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
13:14:24 *** TrueBrain changes topic to "0.5.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices"
13:14:35 <boekabart> hmm, can someone +o boekabart? :)
13:14:44 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o TrueBrain
13:14:48 *** boekabart was kicked by DorpsGek (TrueBrain)
13:14:50 <TrueBrain> sorry, wrong command :p
13:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> somehow, i saw that coming :p
13:17:14 <kaan> does anyone know how many different make systems there has been in ottd?
13:17:34 <TrueBrain> Pre-'makefile rewrite' and 'makefile rewrite'
13:17:54 <TrueBrain> (the latter being: ./configure && make, the first being make SETTINGS:=GOHERE
13:18:07 <kaan> ok, its just that i came across cargo-packets and its not like anything else
13:18:24 <TrueBrain> cargo-packets is pre-'makefile rewrite'
13:18:32 <TrueBrain> it only has a Makefile, and no dir-structure :)
13:19:17 *** boekabart has joined #openttd
13:19:45 * boekabart won't be able to sit for a week, after that kick
13:20:09 <TrueBrain> you asked for it ;)
13:20:23 <boekabart> no, i asked for +o !! :)
13:22:00 <Uatec> that doesn't work in irc
13:24:13 <boekabart> skype has that now: spoken irc channels. how useless can that be.
13:24:55 <Uatec> i don't think i've ever been less interested in something
13:25:11 <Uatec> the point of irc is that you can give it half your attention
13:25:25 <Uatec> if you're only half listening to skype, it's pretty much unusable
13:28:50 *** peter` is now known as peter1138
13:32:07 <Uatec> when i started this download it was going at 800kb/s
13:32:14 <Uatec> now it's down to 30kb/s
13:32:24 * Uatec listens to the tt music to pass the time
13:32:54 *** RobertGrammig has joined #openttd
13:35:57 *** Osai^zZz has joined #openttd
13:36:36 * boekabart wishes he HAD the ttd music
13:38:48 <Uatec> my friend found me some mp3s of it
13:51:01 <lolman> peter1138, I think they mean MP3 or something
13:51:25 <Rubidium> the original midis are much better...
13:52:02 <lolman> Better for nostalgia as well...can chuck them at an FM synthesizer :)
13:52:24 <peter1138> yes, the sb live wavetable/timidity stuff doesn't sound right :(
13:52:57 <Uatec> but i couldn't find anything to play the original files
13:53:15 <lolman> Uatec, rename them to .mid and chuck em at a MIDI player
13:53:29 <Uatec> what plays midi in this day and age?
13:53:39 <kaan> can anyone please explain what the masterserver_updater branch is for?
13:53:58 <Uatec> vista, xp, os x AND windows mobile 6
13:54:12 <lolman> For Windows, WMP will deal with it
13:54:31 <kaan> ok, ill look it up then, thanks :)
13:54:40 <_42_> Rubidium: r7808 log: [MasterServer-Updater] This branch is an effort to make the masterserver and
13:54:42 <_42_> Rubidium: website's serverlist updater use the same base-code for the networking part
13:54:43 <Uatec> i uninstalled wmp, cos it screws with my life
13:54:44 <_42_> Rubidium: as trunk does. It also tackles the current 'misdesign' that the masterserver
13:54:46 <_42_> Rubidium: updates the game information of the website's serverlist instead of only the
13:54:48 <_42_> Rubidium: server state (online/offline).
13:55:12 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o Rubidium
13:55:18 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o Rubidium
13:56:18 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: use 'commit' with @
13:57:47 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
14:08:30 <kaan> would it be safe to assume that any OTTD source checkout that contains the dir "src" is post "makefile-rewrite"?
14:08:38 <boekabart> all the original music files from ttd demo ( think)
14:08:57 *** DaleStan has joined #openttd
14:10:22 <kaan> ok thanks, it makes it a bit easyer to write a compile script :)
14:11:36 <peter1138> well it's your link
14:12:05 <TrueBrain> @openttd commit 7759
14:12:05 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r7759 /trunk (531 files in 37 dirs) (2007-01-02 19:19:48 UTC)
14:12:07 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Merge: makefile rewrite. This merge features:
14:12:09 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - A proper ./configure, so everything needs to be configured only once, not for every make.
14:12:10 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Usage of makedepend when available. This greatly reduces the time needed for generating the dependencies.
14:12:11 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - A generator for all project files. There is a single file with sources, which is used to generate Makefiles and the project files for MSVC.
14:12:22 <TrueBrain> lol, of course it misses the important things :p
14:13:14 <TrueBrain> kaan: but the easiest is to check for 'configure'
14:13:24 <peter1138> why? the old one had configure...
14:13:30 <TrueBrain> peter1138: it did?!
14:13:47 <kaan> it did give me new info though, how did you go about the make process in the old system?
14:14:03 <TrueBrain> kaan: how do you mean exactly?
14:14:26 <kaan> or what did you go through?
14:15:15 <kaan> maybe there is an old wiki revision where i can look it up
14:16:03 <TrueBrain> but instead of ./configure setting all kinds of stuff, the first time you run 'make' all kinds of things were autodetected
14:16:12 <TrueBrain> and written down in Makefile.forgotwhatitwas
14:16:21 <kaan> ok, then what does make install do?
14:16:24 <TrueBrain> kind of ugly :p You could control the detection by settings
14:16:30 <TrueBrain> make install was pretty much broken
14:16:41 <TrueBrain> we now introduced 'make bundle' which makes a bundle out of all the files
14:16:44 <TrueBrain> but that is after rewrite
14:16:58 <kaan> ok i shouldnt count on that then ;)
14:17:11 <TrueBrain> almost no branch works with the old make system
14:17:19 <TrueBrain> and the 2 that do, are no longer in use
14:17:39 <kaan> well, how about the 0.5 branch then?
14:18:00 <TrueBrain> the old make system was a pain in the ass
14:18:11 <kaan> well i have to support it somehow ;)
14:18:26 <TrueBrain> I am going to play C&C3 on my xbox :)
14:18:30 <DaleStan> peter1138: Yeah, but it *was* an image. Now it's just the URL of that image. My idea was show the image and link to the flash. But now no one can get to the image without a whole lot more work than I'd expect anyone to perform. Especially not the type of person who actually needs to see it.
14:20:15 <valhallasw> DaleStan: what about not being this rude to new members
14:20:37 <valhallasw> no-one forces you to help or react
14:21:23 <DaleStan> But is that really the most polite solution?
14:22:11 <valhallasw> a simple 'As far as I know it has not been released yet' is less typing *and* more polite
14:22:28 <valhallasw> and it saves you annoyance, I hope
14:24:39 <kaan> hmmm, 6 of 15 branches still run the old make even if checked out as HEAD
14:25:17 <boekabart> peter1138: You're a new member? Hi, welcome to openttd! ;)
14:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> 0.5, miniin and some horribly outdated experiments?
14:25:40 <DaleStan> In the short term, or in the long term? Sure, "It ain't been released" gets the immediate problem solved, but it doesn't get the user to do the work himself and stop bothering us.
14:25:50 <kaan> * cargo-packets DEAD branch
14:25:50 <kaan> * coopetition head is oldmake
14:25:50 <Rubidium> kaan: of those 6 exactly 1 (0.5) is 'maintained'
14:25:52 <kaan> * cpp_gui head is newmake
14:25:52 <kaan> * custombridgeheads head is newmake
14:25:54 <kaan> * gamebalance head is newmake
14:25:56 <kaan> * masterserver_updater is not a game branch
14:25:56 <kaan> * mempool head is newmake
14:25:58 <kaan> * MiniIN head is oldmake
14:25:58 <kaan> * NewGRF_ports head is newmake
14:30:01 <Belugas> kaan : not a problem. Out of what you've shown, everything is fine. MiniIN is dead, map is dead, coopetition is not a dev branch and cargo-packet is dead. The rest is fine and newmake
14:30:20 <Belugas> apart from 0.4 and 0.5, but Rubidium already told you aobut it :)
14:30:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o DorpsGek
14:30:45 <Rubidium> Belugas: 0.4 is also dead
14:30:49 <kaan> yeah, i guess i could just remove them from the list
14:31:57 <kaan> but i can feel it in my gutt that someday some newbie is going to check out r1 of trunk and then come complining when bottd doesnt know what to do with it ;)
14:32:38 <Rubidium> so just get revisions from r8000+ ?
14:33:03 <kaan> hmmmm, thats sounds doable and reasonable
14:35:14 <kaan> ok i have a few ideas on what to do now, thanks for the feedback guys
14:38:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek
14:46:04 <Sacro> kaan: you are doing bottd?
14:48:40 <Sacro> ah nice, i'm quite interested in it
14:49:51 <kaan> If there is anything you want to know about it, just ask :)
14:51:12 <eJoJ> how can i get the sources to 5.1 from svn?
14:51:28 <Sacro> well, i like the idea of a single download environment for bulding openttd
14:51:35 <Sacro> how about including some kind of editor
14:51:57 <eJoJ> ok 0.5.1, how can i get the source for it using svn?
14:52:12 <kaan> like a source code editor?
14:52:17 <boekabart> svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/branches/0.5.1 ?
14:53:03 <kaan> well its beyond the scope of what im trying to do here
14:53:18 <kaan> plenty of other good tools for that :)
14:53:21 <Rubidium> svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/0.5.1
14:53:32 <boekabart> sorry, i was wrong, Rubidum is right
14:53:46 <eJoJ> thanks rubidum, that fixed it
15:03:14 <boekabart> and good day to you too!
15:03:45 <Ailure> seems like I was disconnected for six hours ago
15:04:54 <Uatec> alot can happen in 6 hours
15:05:01 <Ailure> [05:18] * Disconnected
15:05:01 <Ailure> [17:00] * Attempting to rejoin channel #openttd
15:05:09 <Ailure> That's more like 12 hours even
15:05:28 <Rubidium> Ailure: floodserv bug; everybody was kicked
15:05:59 <Ailure> I got a message that I was rejoining too fast
15:07:16 <Ailure> And I wish I knew why I only have remains of a TTD install
15:07:49 <Ailure> for some reason I don't have the TTD binary XD
15:08:03 <Ailure> but I have the patched binary
15:08:07 <Ailure> and random data files are missing
15:08:12 <Ailure> all of my old savegames are there
15:08:41 <Ailure> my ttdpatch.cfg was priceless
15:09:01 <boekabart> maybe these files were kicked too last night...
15:09:14 <Ailure> probably more like me making some improper backup
15:09:53 <Ailure> My install of orginal TT was backupped fine but hmm
15:10:55 *** blathijs has joined #openttd
15:11:46 <Ailure> I try running transport tycoon
15:11:48 <Ailure> and I get a black screen
15:11:55 <Ailure> guess I run it in dosbox instead
15:12:09 <boekabart> i just started TTO in XP, and it runs
15:12:14 <boekabart> mouse isn't fluent thought
15:12:31 <boekabart> it even appears on both monitors (twice the same of course)
15:13:08 <Ailure> it dosen't work at all here
15:13:10 <Ailure> and I have two monitors
15:13:19 <boekabart> that's short for Transport Tycoon (original)
15:14:22 <Ailure> I jus loaded the last game I had before I started using TTDX
15:14:55 <Ailure> at least the volume meter in the jukebox works
15:16:02 <Ailure> apparently this was the last game I was playing with before I obtained TTDX
15:16:16 <Ailure> I'm cringing at my own network D:
15:16:20 <Ailure> but I practically get away with it
15:16:32 <peter1138> from a shop, presuabmly...
15:16:54 <Ailure> I got TTO was a birthday present though
15:17:13 <boekabart> hm, does DosBox exist for *nix?
15:17:15 <Ailure> But TTD was a bit hard to obtain so I had to go through certain... channels.
15:18:32 <Ailure> I remember thinking it was pretty strange
15:18:35 <boekabart> cool, mars has coal.. but if you dig too deep you hit lava
15:18:38 <Ailure> seeing mars aircraft in temperate
15:18:43 <Ailure> when I played through TTD for the first time
15:18:44 <peter1138> i got my copy from ebay o_O
15:18:51 * boekabart just remembers that earth is the same...
15:19:05 <Ailure> it's pretty much the same as temperate
15:19:07 <peter1138> obviously not the dodgy copies of ttdpatch you can buy, heh
15:19:09 <Ailure> hell you can switch graphics during midgame
15:19:20 <Ailure> Farms were rather funny
15:19:29 <Ailure> instead of covering the terrain with farmland
15:19:34 <Ailure> it was restricted to a rather small area
15:19:42 <Ailure> Like in the first screenshot
15:19:46 <peter1138> in tto, they are just a normal industry
15:20:21 <Ailure> I realize how much OTTD and ttdpatch have changed my playing style
15:20:28 <Ailure> I try to zoom out with the scrollmouse all the time
15:20:45 <Ailure> at least it's what I expected
15:21:02 <Ailure> the mars graphics also changes the pallette
15:21:27 <Ailure> as far I can tell, only the water cycle palette is changed though
15:21:55 <Ailure> heh there's even a bug related to palette cycling
15:22:01 <Ailure> if you turn animation to low
15:22:04 <Ailure> which turns of palette cycling
15:23:06 <Ailure> TTO had a quite few fun bugs :)
15:23:16 <boekabart> actually these last 10 minutes whould have been perfectly OK on a voice-irc channel ;)
15:23:19 <Ailure> Same town as the the mars.PNG, but with animations turned on low
15:23:34 <peter1138> good ol' tt grass...
15:23:44 <boekabart> i think i like it better
15:24:07 <Ailure> for the plain grass i'm neutral
15:24:14 <Ailure> but I think the rough land and rocks looks better in TTO
15:24:18 <Ailure> they look more bland in TTD
15:24:58 <boekabart> Ailure: can you make the window a bit bigger so there's more in the shots
15:25:28 <Ailure> the resolution is hardcoded
15:25:33 <Ailure> you can't expand the window like openTTD
15:25:43 <boekabart> i like the rocks better too
15:26:10 <Ailure> I like the TTD GUI better though
15:26:12 <boekabart> not the layout, the icons on it
15:26:46 <Ailure> The depth in the TTO gui was a bit overdone
15:26:54 <Ailure> which is probably why it was simplified with TTD
15:27:33 <Ailure> I fogrot that company info window
15:27:38 <Ailure> almost took 1/4 of the screens
15:29:30 <Ailure> heh thoose faces even used the palette cycling colours
15:29:31 <boekabart> ah, no it's emil ;)
15:29:47 <Ailure> so the cyborg eye is using the water swapping
15:29:51 <Ailure> eh that's my real name
15:29:58 <Ailure> I thought they looked japanse so heh D:
15:30:23 <boekabart> why is the arrow purple there?
15:30:45 <elmex> Ailure: what gfx. pack is that?
15:31:16 <elmex> does it work with openttd?
15:31:19 <Ailure> Some of the mars graphics was reused for TTD
15:31:29 <Ailure> You see all the futuristic planes in TTD?
15:31:35 <Ailure> Thoose was mars planes
15:31:40 <Ailure> same for the tubular bridge
15:33:26 <RobertGrammig> that mars scenario looks great... much better than crazy toonland
15:33:36 <RobertGrammig> hope it gets replaced by that one day ;)
15:33:44 <Ailure> someone already made a conversion set
15:34:26 <Ailure> the tubular bridge was orginally just a graphics replacement for the cantilever bridge
15:34:46 <Uatec> you can't see through either of them
15:35:05 <Ailure> the tubular bridge tries to fake transparency though
15:35:36 <Uatec> i thought that the tubular bridge was supposed to have holes in it
15:35:42 <boekabart> ah, no, now they are mesh, right?
15:36:14 <Uatec> that what i always thouught
15:36:16 <boekabart> actually the transparency works pretty good on this shot
15:37:01 <Ailure> I wish I knew why Chris Sawyer just didn't make a climate out of the mars graphics
15:37:04 <Ailure> instead of going for toyland
15:37:12 <Uatec> toyland gives me a headache
15:37:13 <Ailure> then he did reuse the mars graphics for osme stuff
15:37:22 <Uatec> anyway, temperate is the only decent climate anyway
15:37:32 <Ailure> for the futuristic aircrafts and tubular bridge
15:37:35 <peter1138> yay for TTO's chunky gui
15:37:55 <boekabart> this tubular is also just a mesh, not transparency
15:38:58 <Ailure> which is why I say faked transparency
15:39:06 <Ailure> I seen same effect being used for glass in some other games xD
15:39:10 <Ailure> it might be supposed to be a mesh
15:39:21 <boekabart> yes but your remakt implied that it's different in ttdx
15:40:41 <Ailure> ironically, the framerate is a bit higher
15:41:36 <Ailure> But i'm not sure why, I heard somewhere that OTTD have lower framerate than TTDX
15:44:03 <DaleStan> I'm not sure if "framerate" is the right word, but yes. TTD uses 27ms ticks. OTTD uses 30 ms ticks.
15:44:11 <Uatec> TTDX is alot simpler than OTTD
15:44:37 <Uatec> is fixed? at a different value?
15:44:43 <Ailure> I just noticed that the palette cycle was noticeable faster
15:45:16 <Uatec> boekabart, if you tried to run ottd on a machine which ttdx was designed for it would fall over
15:45:30 <Uatec> there's a reason ttdx was as restricted as it was
15:45:42 <Uatec> which was because the hardwar eof the day wasn't capable of handling too much
15:45:45 <Ailure> the company colours are a bit diffrent too
15:45:47 <Uatec> nowadays we can put more in
15:45:54 <peter1138> so you mean simpler code-wise than gameplay-wise...?
15:45:54 <Uatec> but it still slows down a bit
15:46:15 <Ailure> only ones that look somewhat similar
15:46:35 <peter1138> DaleStan: i'd advocate changing it back but my pc probably wouldn't cope ;)
15:46:40 <Ailure> and still look slightly diffrent
15:47:17 <Ailure> Well I honestly didn't notice the speed diffrence until I started looking at the water
15:47:17 <peter1138> and ttd isn't exactly 27ms, iirc
15:47:30 <peter1138> the palette animation speed is something else
15:48:31 <Ailure> why palette cycling felt so much faster
15:48:36 <Ailure> but everything else was only a minor diffrence
15:48:52 <boekabart> how/who/when did the openttd project start actually, where did they get the code from?
15:50:00 <boekabart> and who/how? or is that a secret we shouldn't know?
15:50:16 <DaleStan> boekabart: lumpio performed an ASM-to-C translation of disassembled TTD.
15:50:42 <DaleStan> But Belugas is right. ludde. Not lumpio.
15:50:59 <Ailure> Ludde is also the creator of uTorrent and uhm
15:51:18 <DaleStan> I believe it was manually.
15:51:22 <boekabart> peter1138: it's HIS babies you should want :)
15:52:11 <Uatec> that sounds like a bit of a mission
15:52:16 <peter1138> nah it's his fault i'm wasting my time here
15:52:23 <Uatec> i'm assuming that they tried and failed to get source out of chris sawyer
15:52:47 <boekabart> people have babies with the person who's wasting their time ALL THE TIME.
15:53:14 <boekabart> but... disassmebling is illegal under the DMCA, right?
15:53:18 <Ailure> the guy even have his own page on Wikipedia
15:53:33 <boekabart> ah, swedish... of course, no DMCA :)
15:54:05 <Ailure> the american goverment have gotten annoyed at us becuse of that even :)
15:54:42 * Ailure have done quite some reverse engineering and even worked with machine code...
15:54:57 <boekabart> Originally closed source, the conversion process from assembly language to C was performed single handedly by Ludvig Strigeus between mid-2002 and March 2004, with the help of Interactive Disassembler.
15:55:10 <Belugas> for the record, there is an attempt currently underway to communicate with Atari, in order to clarify our situation
15:55:25 <Belugas> not the first one been made, but i have hopes it would be the good one
15:55:45 <Ailure> I gotten the "We don't really care" vibe from them
15:56:19 <Uatec> i'm a bit of a grammar nazi
15:56:40 <Belugas> well... if they reply "Don't care", it will still be better then absolutely no answer at all...
15:56:53 <Uatec> and Ailure, since you're swedish, you have an excuse to be less than perfect at ingles
15:57:06 <Ailure> English have some weird grammar rules
15:57:11 <Ailure> it's not the rules that get people
15:57:21 <Belugas> and the question of original data has been raised too. It would help both ttdpatch and openttd community
15:57:21 <boekabart> dude, english is the weirdest language around
15:57:26 <Uatec> the rules all make perfect sense
15:57:32 <Uatec> what weird rules are there?
15:58:10 <boekabart> not many. Try to make pronounciation rules for English.... harder than making signals on bridges, i can assure you.
15:58:13 <Ailure> althouh unlikely to happen
15:58:43 <boekabart> read 'Made in America' by Bill Bryson, it's excellent.
15:58:54 <Ailure> I wish more gaming companies and publishers are like ID
15:59:02 <Ailure> and release the full source code whenever X engine is outdated
15:59:38 <Uatec> it's not as out dated as tt
15:59:42 <boekabart> Maybe atari wants to do a thing like BlueByte did with Settlers ][ : publish a functionally identical, but graphically improved game
16:00:16 <Uatec> boekabart, chris sawyer did locomotion
16:00:25 <Ailure> It was hilarious though
16:00:27 <boekabart> it's not even similar
16:00:37 <Ailure> I read a review about a game Sid Meir made
16:00:49 <Ailure> and the guy making the review confusind Sid Meir and Chris Sawyer
16:00:54 <Ailure> and mentioned Locomotion as a disaster
16:01:07 <Ailure> the recent train game Sid Meir made
16:01:12 <boekabart> ah actually locomotion is, which is the other one, RRT3?
16:01:38 <boekabart> anyway: locomotion is NOT graphically improved. at least not to 2006 standards
16:01:52 <Ailure> locomotion have ugly graphics
16:02:11 <Ailure> I hadn't even touched the game
16:02:17 <Ailure> but the screenshots make me cringe
16:02:20 <boekabart> i did, for about 2 evenings max
16:02:23 <Ailure> the 8bit sprites looks so much more lovely
16:02:35 <boekabart> they practically are 8 bit sprites
16:02:41 <boekabart> re ID: They DID release doom, quake source code, but NEVER the data files, right?
16:02:58 <Ailure> and ID still sells Doom though
16:03:06 <Ailure> You can buy from their online store last I checked
16:03:27 <Ailure> While with TTD, only way buying the game legally is through second hand.
16:03:34 <peter1138> locomotion is 8 bpp, yes
16:03:48 <Ailure> Do each object have a invidual palette?
16:03:48 <boekabart> legally throught second hand?
16:04:02 <peter1138> it's a very brown palette, heh
16:04:02 <boekabart> i don't think game resale is actually legal
16:04:05 <Ailure> That was the case for The sims
16:04:14 <Ailure> At least in my country
16:04:22 <boekabart> in sweden downloading is legal ;)
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16:04:26 <Ailure> I think the consumer agency even interwinded once
16:04:31 <Ailure> when a game publisher whined
16:05:00 <Ailure> The sims 1 had a rather fun way of doing palettes
16:05:07 * boekabart is checking the actual traffic situation
16:05:07 <Ailure> sprites are 8bit and have invidual palettes
16:05:34 <Ailure> But the game as whole runs 16bit and appears that way too
16:05:44 <Desolator> I still have trouble changing the maximum loan, if I change it on the settings_gui, then I can't chnage it in game (or it goes back to 1 mil)
16:06:10 <Ailure> though they got away with it
16:06:20 <Ailure> as you rarely need more than 256 colours on a single tile
16:07:17 <boekabart> sounds like commodore 64... max so many colors per line
16:07:40 <Ailure> with tile, I mean isometric tile
16:07:52 <Ailure> not like tiles on a old console ;)
16:07:59 <boekabart> they were called sprites
16:08:22 <boekabart> they were awesome to code for, mid-screen palette changes and such
16:09:10 <Ailure> You can even change graphics memory on line
16:09:21 <Ailure> which was used in SMB3 for the status bar
16:09:23 <boekabart> you could actually do that on CGA too, switch between the 'white' and 'yellow' palettes during the trace
16:09:48 <Ailure> So the status bar tiles wouldn't take up any valuable space for the 'level' tiles
16:10:16 <Ailure> if you look closely between the status bar and level itself
16:10:22 <Ailure> you can see slight flickering
16:10:56 <boekabart> i see slight flickering now anyway, time to go home. later!
16:11:07 *** boekabart has left #openttd
16:11:48 <Ailure> MMC3 is the name of that mapper oh yes
16:11:51 <Ailure> I should play with it a bit
16:15:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o DorpsGek
16:15:47 <Ailure> I screw around way too much with old games.
16:15:48 *** Desolator is now known as Guest3
16:16:06 <Ailure> I figure the services are up again
16:16:31 *** PlayMeNow has joined #openttd
16:17:27 <Ailure> it let you rename to desolate after some time
16:17:56 <PlayMeNow> well i "/chanserv identify" isn't a command anymore so I knida lost my channels, I don't get opped
16:18:35 <PlayMeNow> i mean CHANserv, cs
16:18:51 <Ailure> You shouldn't have to identify through chanserv
16:18:59 <Ailure> although chanches are that they hadn't gotten it up yet
16:19:42 <PlayMeNow> well before I could
16:19:55 *** Belugas sets mode: +o DorpsGek
16:20:05 *** PlayMeNow is now known as Desoaltor
16:20:15 *** Desoaltor is now known as Desolator
16:20:21 <glx> Desoaltor: autoop is not reactivated yet
16:20:28 <Ailure> sounds like something out of the japanse edition of RA2
16:20:48 <glx> Desolator: you you ask master of the channel to enable it
16:20:51 <Desolator> Desolator --> Iraq special unit in RA2 & YR
16:21:10 <Desolator> I AM the master of #ir & #Transcendence
16:21:12 <Ailure> Best anti-infantry unit in the game pretty much
16:21:34 <Desolator> The Desolator spreads radiatino, which does NOT hurt air units
16:21:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o DorpsGek
16:21:51 <Ailure> yeah that's pretty strange now I think on it
16:21:58 <Desolator> YES! services are up
16:22:10 <Ailure> with it being ground only
16:22:30 <Desolator> it's not, it kills units VERY fast
16:22:57 <Ailure> I mean, it's understandable for balancing reasons true
16:23:05 <Desolator> autoop is enabled but i'm still not opped
16:23:07 <Ailure> then RA2 didn't exactly strife for realism
16:23:21 <Ailure> It's the least serious game out of the CnC series after all
16:23:25 <Ailure> Pretty fun becues of that too
16:23:56 <Ailure> Well, compared to the orgimal red alert at least
16:23:57 <Desolator> RA1 spolied the C&C series
16:24:03 <Ailure> though they are all a bit campy
16:24:24 <Desolator> GDI were the good guys and nod the bad ones
16:24:31 <Desolator> GDI use power, nod stealth
16:24:41 <Desolator> in RA it's upside down
16:24:55 <Desolator> soviets use power and are bad, alies use stealh and are good
16:25:11 <Ailure> Mammoth tanks was a Soviet technology in RA1
16:25:18 <Ailure> while in orginal CnC it was GDI technology
16:25:36 <Ailure> RA1 is like 30 years before first CnC anyway
16:25:49 *** Belugas sets mode: +o DorpsGek
16:25:49 <Desolator> C&C is in future, RA is in past
16:26:12 <Ailure> First CnC is actually suppsosed to be in the 90's
16:26:29 <Ailure> The other games points that out
16:26:37 <Desolator> well, never seen first, but the tiberian series is in future
16:26:44 <Desolator> and Tiberian Sun was the last real C&C
16:27:03 <Desolator> RA1 & Generals deserve no C&C status
16:27:11 <Ailure> The first game had tiberium
16:27:22 <Desolator> in RA1 it's gold & gems + oil
16:27:31 <Ailure> oil didn't exist with RA1 though
16:27:36 <Ailure> that was a concept introdced RA2
16:27:40 <Desolator> it's in RA2 thoguh...whatever
16:27:43 <Ailure> there were oil derricks, but they were purely decorational
16:27:49 <Ailure> (yes I mispelled that)
16:28:26 <Desolator> thoguh Yuri's Revenge is a good expansion
16:28:27 <Ailure> The latest game is pretty good though
16:28:31 <Ailure> and I had my doubts at first
16:28:35 <Desolator> Yuri is best if used correctly
16:28:38 <Ailure> seeing how Westwood had no involvment
16:28:50 <Ailure> then technicall, RA2 was mainly devoloped by EA too
16:29:19 <Ailure> Westwood had rather minor involvment
16:29:39 <Desolator> I kinda liked Tiberian Sun: Firestorm
16:29:45 <Desolator> westwood did a good job
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16:29:56 <Ailure> Firestorm is the only one in the series
16:30:03 <Ailure> Well, expect for Generals
16:30:15 <Ailure> Generals didn't seem too impressing
16:30:30 <Desolator> gfenerals in an exapansion of RA2 with 3D
16:30:45 <Desolator> AFAIK it has OGL as def setting, so I couldn't run it here
16:31:00 <Ailure> Actually it's not related to Red alert or CnC
16:31:19 <Ailure> it tries to be somewhat more realistic by tying to real world nations instead of fictional factions
16:31:25 <Ailure> ok, technicall the Allied and Soviet is real, but still.
16:32:03 <Ailure> It's like Chris Sawyer would call Rollercoaster tycoon
16:32:11 <Ailure> "Transport Tycoon 2: Rollercoaster tycoon"
16:32:58 <Ailure> at least they didn't do that with the middle earth games or something
16:33:02 <Ailure> which is based on the same engine
16:33:14 <Ailure> woudl been pretty funny with "Command and Conquer: Battle for middle earth"
16:33:24 <Ailure> I never bought it, but it's based on the Generals engine
16:33:44 <Ailure> or the SAGE engine as it's called
16:34:03 <Desolator> SAGE sonuds more familiar
16:36:46 <Ailure> and I had heavy doubts
16:37:15 <Desolator> well back to ottd, does any1 where I can find the hardcoded $1kk initial loan limit (kk = million)?
16:37:39 <Ailure> the limit is a million?
16:37:47 <Ailure> A friend of mine managed much higher than that
16:37:56 <Ailure> by changing the config fil however
16:38:03 <Ailure> and I assume you're using USD
16:38:06 <Desolator> you can start with more than 1 million bucks
16:38:12 <Ailure> the ingame limit is 500K pounds
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16:38:27 <Ailure> the game uses pounds internally though
16:38:46 <Ailure> and what most people use too :)
16:38:48 <Desolator> whatever, I guess the developers know that 1 buck = half a pound
16:39:00 <Ailure> I know some of the ratios tyop of my head
16:39:24 <Ailure> It's possible to go over that limit
16:39:30 <Ailure> by manually editing the config file
16:39:36 <Ailure> you can also give 0% intrest rate too :)
16:39:46 <Desolator> I want to start with 5 mil
16:39:48 <Ailure> so you won't have to pay rent on the loan
16:40:16 <Desolator> because 1 mil isn't enoguh to make realistic track set-ups on long distance
16:42:41 <Ailure> I manage setting up decent train lines even with the modified buildings cost GRF
16:42:57 <Ailure> I just avoid overly terraforming
16:43:17 <Desolator> I want long and realistic lines mostly, but I can make decent stuff with 300k ewasely
16:43:37 <Ailure> heh I like struggling with money personally
16:43:46 <Ailure> You would get a much faster start after all
16:43:54 <Ailure> and a huge network earlier on
16:44:24 <Desolator> yes I want to simulate RL, right now there are a lto of rails built years and years ago
16:45:10 <Ailure> I just want to see more factors in the game
16:45:29 <Ailure> that would prevent a company making more profit than all their vehicles are worth for a year
16:56:22 <Desolator> i'm changing the Romanian currency
16:59:38 <Wolf01> i'm good at drawing as i'm good to go outside home to find girls
17:01:02 <Desolator> to find a girl ~= (!=) to get a girl
17:01:13 <Desolator> you can see girls walking on the streer
17:11:59 * Desolator goes to play openttd
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17:13:40 <Ailure> It could be like Euro, changing after X year.
17:14:31 <Ailure> heh and planes landing on water would have to be implented first. They were working on something like that for TTDpatch I heard.
17:14:41 <Ailure> Working and working, it might just been in the idea stage
17:15:12 *** boekabart has joined #openttd
17:16:49 <Ailure> they're more like hovercrafts than aircraft though
17:16:58 <Ailure> they do fly over water, but just not much
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17:33:56 <Phazorx> planes langing on water?
17:34:38 <Phazorx> sounds like H-4 Hughe's spruce goose might come handy then
17:35:33 <Thomas[NL]> hmm little annoying bug: If you edit a save game, if a town builds a road over a railway that piece of rail will become owned by the city. And you can't delete it ingame or in the scn-editor even with the magix bulldozer :(
17:35:58 *** Osai^zZz has joined #openttd
17:39:47 <glx> you shouldn't edit a save game
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18:24:40 <Digitalfox> Anyone knows a good remote desktop software besides ultravnc for windows?
18:26:03 <peter1138> windows' built in remote desktop stuff
18:26:53 <Digitalfox> No.. I need one that i can see in real time my server screen in my desktop, and doesn't close the session on server
18:27:22 <Digitalfox> It's for controlling aplications in server that are running
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18:28:21 <Belugas> that's how i connect to my computer@work during the evening, remote desktop
18:28:24 <Digitalfox> With ultravnc you can connect to my server and if you go to the server monitor you can actualy see the mouse and aplications openning and moving while in remote desktop
18:28:59 <Digitalfox> I may be wrong but windows remote desktop needs a session opened or closed gfor this to work
18:29:09 <peter1138> otherwises, it's cool
18:29:15 <Digitalfox> ok belugas :) Going to try that one
18:33:04 <Digitalfox> By the way my problem with Ultravnc is just that my server uses resolution 1280*1024 and my my notebook 1280*800, so i can't get ultravnc to resize and show in full screen without the need on going screen down and screen up
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18:35:28 <Belugas> same problem will arize with every solution,
18:35:36 <Belugas> unless yo want to have crappy screens
18:35:53 <Belugas> PPCharge tends to blurr things up in that circumstance
18:36:13 *** Osai^zZz is now known as Osai
18:36:24 <Belugas> presonnaly, if you arlready have a solution but just dislike the screen resize,
18:36:33 <Digitalfox> So what's the best solution downgrade resolution in server to 1024*768?
18:36:44 <Belugas> i would say live with it, since there is no real solutions
18:37:06 <boekabart> I also use remote desktop built-in XP
18:37:12 <Belugas> but yes, i think downgrading server would be better
18:37:17 <Belugas> after all... it's a server,
18:37:26 <boekabart> it doesn't need to be logged on or off, it logs on (if not yet) on connect
18:38:05 <boekabart> on the pc itself, the session will look 'locked', as if you press win+L
18:38:21 <boekabart> and the desktop will take the size you specify in the client
18:39:06 <peter1138> ooof, patch that increases EngineInfo from 24 to 164 bytes :(
18:40:04 <peter1138> by moving _engine_custom_sprites & _engine_grf into it
18:40:44 <peter1138> 41KB instead of 6KB :/
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18:50:32 <Wolf01> boekabart! screeeeeeens!
18:51:17 <peter1138> Wolf01: join the queue
18:55:13 <Ailure> there's something charming with oddball inventions
19:01:03 <Sacro> 3 sets from Quinne: [LINK REMOVED] (8,83MB) Smile
19:01:03 <Sacro> edit by patchman: No nudity allowed.
19:05:15 <guru3> Read the wikipedia entry. Looked futuristic back then, but now, damn.
19:06:32 <guru3> Yeah... Although that does just look like a train with a pair of jet turbines stuck on top for some unknown reason...
19:07:02 <Wolf01> they are really turbines
19:07:20 <guru3> Please tell me it's not jet powered.
19:07:51 <Wolf01> yes, it is jet powered
19:09:16 <guru3> "They were given 45 days and a blank check to put the program together."
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19:09:21 <guru3> You don't see projects like that these days.
19:10:05 <dihedral> say i have char msg[MAX_TEXT_MSG_LEN]
19:10:18 <dihedral> from DEF_SERVER_RECEIVE_COMMAND(PACKET_CLIENT_CHAT)
19:10:38 <dihedral> and i wanted to only print msg as of msg[4]
19:10:38 <Wolf01> these days we have too much to loose, so we don't spend our time on such projects
19:10:54 <dihedral> how would i go about doing that?
19:10:59 <Rubidium> dihedral: as in do not print the first 4 characters?
19:11:47 <Rubidium> printf("%s", msg + 4) or printf("%s", &msg[4])
19:12:43 <Rubidium> I'm not really into that/the part of economy
19:13:07 <dihedral> you are a star - you know that?
19:13:12 <Desolator> i'm back from my gane
19:13:36 <Rubidium> a pretty dead star as I'm having a cold right now ;)
19:14:07 <Rubidium> but that patch doesn't only affect the economy, it also changes whether some industries may be built in some cases
19:14:47 <dihedral> but focusing on the economy part
19:15:08 <dihedral> industries producing 1-4 would have a better chance of increasing
19:16:07 <Rubidium> i->type == IT_BANK_TEMP <- this type of assumptions is going to break as soon as newindustries get in, so better not add them because we already know that newindustries is going to have trouble with them
19:21:14 <Rubidium> well, it's a kind of magic to me right now
19:22:07 <Rubidium> any reasons why CHANCE_B isn't halved when CHANCE_A is?
19:22:59 <peter1138> why do we need another smooth economy?
19:23:30 <dihedral> because industries producing 1-4 dont have a chance of increasing
19:23:50 <peter1138> and this fixes that specific case?
19:24:08 <Rubidium> peter1138: it does way more than that
19:24:09 <dihedral> well - could have it redone to only fix that specific case :-)
19:24:37 <Rubidium> (RandomRange((old_prod >> 2) + 1) - (old_prod >> 3) + (old_prod >> 4) + (old_prod >> 5) + (old_prod >> 6) + (old_prod >> 7)); ???
19:24:46 <peter1138> iirc, the main reason for the smooth economy patch was because the existing one was broeken for a long time
19:24:46 <Belugas> - if (_opt.landscape != LT_ARCTIC && _opt.landscape != LT_TROPIC) {
19:24:46 <Belugas> + if (_opt.landscape != LT_ARCTIC) {
19:24:51 <Belugas> why removal of torpic?
19:25:17 <Belugas> + if (tile != INVALID_TILE && GetTropicZone(tile) != TROPICZONE_DESERT) PlantFarmField(tile, i->index);
19:26:29 <Belugas> + if (i->type == IT_OIL_RIG && j == 1) new_prod = clamp(new_prod, 0, 16);
19:26:30 <Belugas> + if (i->type == IT_BANK_TEMP && _opt.landscape == LT_TEMPERATE) new_prod = clamp(new_prod, 0, 64);
19:26:34 <Belugas> don't like that AT ALL!!!!
19:27:02 <Belugas> - INDUSTRYLIFE_NOT_CLOSABLE, 1 << LT_TEMPERATE,
19:27:02 <Belugas> + INDUSTRYLIFE_PRODUCTION, 1 << LT_TEMPERATE,
19:27:43 <dihedral> ok - lets forget all the 'junk' around it
19:27:57 <peter1138> one change, one patch, please ;)
19:27:58 <dihedral> and just look at the increase and decrease of production rates
19:28:12 <Rubidium> the problem is, we don't know what's "junk" and what isn't junk...
19:28:29 <peter1138> see, with newgrf changes, i know what's what ;)
19:28:37 <peter1138> hence i can split up mart3p's patches...
19:28:57 <peter1138> otoh, hertogjiananaijan persists in making the huge acceleration patch :/
19:29:11 <peter1138> not only that, my big toe still hurts
19:29:31 <dihedral> i shall get it reworked
19:29:40 <dihedral> so only the in and decrease is included :-)
19:30:54 * dihedral peeks his head around the corner
19:31:01 <dihedral> thanks for the feedback :)
19:31:35 <boekabart> Wolf01: what was the scrreeeeeeeeeens scream about?
19:32:15 <peter1138> boekabart: have you calculate the number of sprites we'd need?
19:36:09 <boekabart> no, it depends on the approach
19:36:23 <boekabart> atm, i think quays may the most feasable approach
19:36:51 <boekabart> but wouldn't it be smarter to get the deep sea into trunk first, it's a lot less complex, needs no extra sprites...
19:37:20 <boekabart> (without the rivers that is, with rivers we need the slope sprites for all SLOPEs)
19:37:44 <Wolf01> boekabart, what do you think about my suggestion of yesterday? (the go straight until obstacle one)
19:37:57 <boekabart> Wolf01: look at that site :)
19:40:42 <Wolf01> great! seem a real water :O
19:41:57 <peter1138> boekabart: well, do deep sea then
19:47:01 <dihedral> peter1138: just saw the log entry for REV:9771
19:49:37 <Wolf01> boekabart, can i try the latest patch? (if is that in the forums, i have to apply both diffs of the first post?)
19:49:58 <boekabart> it's not in the forums, it's another patch
19:50:11 <boekabart> see logs of today around 11am CET
19:50:30 <boekabart> i posted a link to a rar with pix + patch
19:50:52 <boekabart> Note that it is NOT the deep water patch from the forum, it's an experiment for real water flow ('real')
19:52:29 <boekabart> peter1138: the forum deep sea patch is still 'the one' I think; we only should remove the ctrl-click is 'water source' instead of 'canal'.
19:53:04 <boekabart> starts with the same server though
19:53:17 <boekabart> sorry, don't have that site index close at hand here
19:54:04 <boekabart> peter1138: i'll update the deep sea patch to latest rev so we can review the coding style, ok?
19:55:51 <boekabart> strange. juist before the picasa album, maybe 10 minutes
20:17:09 <Wolf01> really good, i like that the water dry if the flow is blocked
20:19:03 <Wolf01> some times i get a sprite < _sprite_cache assert
20:23:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9816 /branches/noai/ (110 files in 11 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r9712:9815 except r9759 (MorphOS threading) because that needs special attention.
20:25:30 <peter1138> yes, it's not finished ;)
20:36:03 <Phazorx> is hmm... noai is just no ai ?
20:36:11 <Phazorx> less cpu power wasted?
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20:37:26 <RobertGrammig> hey just read the visual c++ guide for openttd.... guess something similar for borland builder doesnt exist?
20:38:19 <Rubidium> RobertGrammig: I haven't seen such a guide for Borland nor hear of anybody using it
20:38:57 <RobertGrammig> i am quite new to c++... you think msvc is generally better?
20:39:36 <Rubidium> I haven't used either MSVC nor Borland for developing, so I can't say
20:39:52 <RobertGrammig> what do you use?
20:40:16 <Rubidium> a text editor with syntax highlighting + gcc + gdb
20:41:00 <RobertGrammig> ok... I am looking more for sthg beginner friendly on w32 ;)
20:41:06 <kaan> its been many years since i last used anything from Borland, but their products is great and if you succed in compiling on borland please wtrite a wiki entry
20:50:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9817 /trunk/src/ai/default/default.cpp: -Fix [FS#772]: an assertion that was triggered by the AI building when its rating for the town was not high enough.
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21:36:05 <Wolf01> on the right there is another one, and some huge hovercrafts
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21:42:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o DorpsGek
21:42:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek
21:43:33 <Phazorx> if that's what i think - it never actualy flew
21:44:05 <Phazorx> but the bigger version of that did, bit requires some pretty calm conditions
21:44:53 <Phazorx> that si something else
21:44:55 <Wolf01> a friend of mine drew it
21:49:08 * dihedral gives everybody a good-night-hug
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22:36:37 <Zuu> Is there a reson for not flushing stdout when OpenTTD is running as Dedicated server?
22:37:19 <Zuu> By changeing that it is much esier to pharse the output from an external program.
22:37:47 <Zuu> I have a ready patch for than if desired.
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22:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> what does "flush stdout" mean?
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23:02:13 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: just form the name - sync buffered IO to console
23:03:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't understand that...
23:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> what is the problem and what is the desired behaviour?
23:04:51 <Phazorx> i have no idea what are you talking about to be honst :)
23:05:21 <Phazorx> i guess console output is buffered somwhere
23:05:34 <Phazorx> like till some tick or some other time based delay
23:05:44 <Phazorx> and that slows down anything that is based on consoel output
23:05:52 <Phazorx> such as debugging routines or autopilot
23:06:02 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
23:06:13 <Phazorx> would be nice is output would be unbuffered for some cases
23:07:01 <Phazorx> bear in mind i'm talking based on general concepts rather than familiarity with ottd code
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23:11:00 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause3: If output is not flushed it will be buffered somewhere and will not reach the Autopilot-program untill openttd exits.
23:12:59 <Zuu> Somehow it reaches your shell still if you plainly run ./openttd -D. So with some special magic it should be possible too make an autopilot without making OpenTTD call fflush, which is how Brianetta have done I think.
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