IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-04-21
⏴ go to previous day
00:20:48 *** Osai^2 is now known as Osai
00:26:20 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
00:31:04 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
00:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't suppose that's gonna help a lot :)
00:53:39 <Belugas> nope, but it's better than yelling and waking the kiddo :)
00:55:32 <Belugas> memory fault, somewhere after saving a game and exiting back to intro menu
00:56:05 <Belugas> looks like stuff that i forgot to free, or memory overriding
00:56:22 <Belugas> newindustries are a bit frustrating
00:56:42 <Belugas> i guess i may have to go with plan b)
01:18:36 *** Sacro__ has joined #openttd
01:21:20 *** TheJosh has joined #openttd
01:22:55 <TheJosh> Hey I have a quick development question: How do you add a price to the prices class? I Added one, and added a default value,etc to economy.cpp, but now I get an assert when I start the game "openttd: /home/josh/svn/openttd-nightly/src/saveload.cpp:901: void SlLoadChunk(const ChunkHandler*): Assertion `SlGetOffs() == endoffs' failed."
01:38:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't know what a price class is, but you have to update the saveload code, to update old savegames on load
01:39:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> old savegames especially include the title screen savegame
01:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> that is very old
01:41:47 <TheJosh> So if I add a price, I need to do a savegame bump?
01:43:44 <TheJosh> i always feel bad that Im bumping the savegame. Its like im making a prefectly good format invalid just because I want to have user-creatable towns
01:44:53 *** DandMan has joined #openttd
01:45:36 <DandMan> can anyone help with openwrt?
01:49:00 <DandMan> does anyone know where i could get some help?
01:49:40 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
01:51:15 <DandMan> it's the firmware in routers, ex. dd-wrt
01:52:58 <TheJosh> and you want to tell it to let openttd through?
01:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and why would we know something about that?
01:55:00 <TheJosh> i dont even know the port it uses, but i might beable to find out
02:10:12 <_42_> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advsertise) communication (outbound)
02:22:57 *** TinoDidri has joined #openttd
02:26:21 *** roboman has joined #openttd
02:42:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belugas * r9704 /trunk/src/table/build_industry.h: -Documentation: Add comments on industry data macro
02:48:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belugas * r9705 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp table/industry_land.h):
02:48:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Merge some data arrays together, making a bit more logical units.
02:48:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: Calculate with a macro (for _industry_anim_offs_toys) the value of x, instead of doing it at run time.
02:48:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: And give some more descriptive names too...
03:16:22 <DaleStan> Rubidium: You said "Link to RC2 forum post:" twice, instead of saying "Link to RC3 forum post:" the second time.
04:26:30 *** Digitalfox[Home] has quit IRC
06:05:45 *** setrodox has joined #openttd
06:22:19 *** Ammller is now known as Ammler
06:24:33 *** Ammler is now known as Ammller
06:43:38 *** roboman has joined #openttd
07:17:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9706 /trunk/src/newgrf_town.cpp: -Codechange: Support NewGRF town var 40 'largertowns' variable properly.
07:27:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9707 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_spritegroup.cpp newgrf_spritegroup.h): -Codechange: Add some support for NewGRF var 7D, temporary storage array.
07:28:28 <peter1138> This returns the index of the town in the town array. This value is between 0 and 69 (inclusive)
07:55:08 *** Progman has joined #openttd
08:24:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: KUDr * r9708 /branches/cpp_gui/ (168 files in 17 dirs): [cpp_gui] -Sync with trunk (r9633:9707)
08:33:36 *** DJ_Mirage has joined #openttd
08:49:15 *** Maedhros has joined #openttd
08:51:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: maedhros * r9709 /trunk/src/newgrf_town.cpp: -Fix (r9706): Larger towns use t->larger_towns, not the town index.
08:51:58 <Wolf01> SB(_transparent_opt, TO_START, TO_END, ~0) <- what deos mean the ~0?
08:54:51 <Wolf01> (peter1138 will kill me)
08:55:24 <maad> Wolf01: it's bitwise NOT
08:56:10 <Wolf01> oh ok, it toggles all the bits
08:59:13 *** Thomas[NL] has joined #openttd
09:15:35 <ln-> maad: how do you know it's only 0xFF, not 0xFFFF, or 0xFFFFFFFF?
09:21:23 <Wolf01> in fact, that is a uint
09:22:50 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd
09:27:29 <Wolf01> what bother is that it works in the same manner
09:32:00 <HMage> it doesn't behave in the same manner
09:32:08 <HMage> it doesn't always behave in the same manner*
09:33:42 <Maedhros> in this case you're only using the first 6(?) bits of it, so it doesn't matter how big it is
10:01:43 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
10:11:10 *** DJ_Mirage has joined #openttd
10:26:53 *** Progman has joined #openttd
11:13:40 *** tokai|ni has joined #openttd
11:29:00 *** Rexxars has joined #openttd
11:38:08 *** GoneWacko has joined #openttd
11:55:24 *** Desolator has joined #openttd
12:17:33 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
12:18:35 *** Ammller is now known as Ammler
12:23:02 <peter1138> Wolf01: why will i kill you?
12:24:37 <peter1138> Maedhros: works better than before, either way ;-)
12:50:21 * Maedhros resurrects his diagonal level crossings patch
12:54:24 <Wolf01> [14:23:16] <peter1138> Wolf01: why will i kill you? <- because i'm always at work to extend the transparency options :D
12:56:42 <sai> hey guys, is it at all possible to make good profit with buses in 1930 in the desert and the biggest cities with 300 inhabitants?
12:58:02 <sai> my experience is, that there is no way at all to make money with buses or these transport trucks
12:58:40 <sai> it is a pitty somehow, because why should I ever start to build buses or transporters, when they dont make profit?!
13:00:01 <ln-> to help people move from one place to another.
13:00:30 <sai> yeah, ok, but I mean, you cannot do this very long when you run out of money
13:01:31 <sai> a bus costs 15,000, and until the bus made 15,000 of profit, it will take 15 years. until then you have other costs for the depts you made and the maintenance costs
13:05:21 *** Frostregen_ has joined #openttd
13:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> usually, an inner-city bus service will help grow the city
13:07:25 <sai> well, I have 2 buses now circulating between two cities in the desert
13:08:14 <peter1138> don't start in the desert :)
13:08:18 <sai> but the cities dont grow (probably because they need water and food), and the buses dont make profit
13:08:41 <sai> well, its not that I start the game
13:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> start in the grassy areas
13:09:44 <sai> so, basically there is no sense to start in the desert in 1930, because it is just not possible to make profit with buses, right?
13:10:21 <peter1138> as you said, you need to supply the towns with other stuff to make them grow
13:10:39 <sai> its just, it became boring starting too late (~1950 with trains) and to connect some coal mines with the power plant... after few years I am a millionaire
13:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and especially use busses mostly inner city. it's much more likely to generate profit
13:10:56 <sai> this is new to me, "inner city buses"...
13:11:00 <sai> but I will try that, thanks
13:11:01 *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
13:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, i like the diagonal crossings, but they need some graphics that are compatible with the level crossings from the DBSet...
13:20:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9710 /trunk/ (Makefile.src.in config.lib): -Add: added support for GCC 2.95. This makes MorphOS target alive again. With a big thanks to tokai and Rubidiumsvn status
13:20:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9711 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix: don't include one system-header-file on MorphOS as it gives silly warnings and is unneeded for OpenTTD
13:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and they should invoke all parallel crossings simultaneously (also for normal crossings)
13:20:55 <Maedhros> Eddi|zuHause: it'll be possiblet to change the graphics via newgrf
13:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "svn status"? i don't suppose that belongs there
13:21:22 <Maedhros> activating all parallel crossings will be a lot more work though
13:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you have code for activating adjacent diagonal level crossings anyway
13:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> just needs to be extended properly
13:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> this would also solve the problem when two trains are on the same diagonal crossing, where not all crossings get disabled properly
13:24:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if you fixed that since the miniin patch
13:24:34 <Maedhros> i haven't touched it properly for quite a while
13:43:13 *** Smoovious has joined #openttd
13:43:21 *** UndernotBuilder has joined #openttd
13:43:42 <UndernotBuilder> which is the feature that is being worked now for trunk?
13:51:57 <UndernotBuilder> I mean in what feature are working the devs now
13:52:10 <UndernotBuilder> or features :)
13:53:21 <UndernotBuilder> and a question: is there a extended changelog to download?
13:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> read the previous commit messages, you might get some estimation that way
13:53:31 *** Osai^2 is now known as Osai
13:54:24 <UndernotBuilder> -Feature: Increase cargo types from 12 to 32 and enable newcargo flag in NewGRF
13:54:34 <UndernotBuilder> is that a preparative to newcargos?
13:54:40 *** rahikkala has left #openttd
13:58:27 <UndernotBuilder> how do I filter the results by features (I use <command> | find "Feature:" in m$ batchfiles but which is the equivalent in cygwin?
13:58:57 <Maedhros> svn log | grep 'Feature:'
14:00:04 <peter1138> some features sneak in under other terms
14:11:09 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
14:13:19 *** XeryusTC2 has joined #openttd
14:13:37 *** XeryusTC2 is now known as XeryusTC
14:17:18 *** Digitalfox has joined #openttd
14:48:55 <peter1138> whoever cleaned up the transparency gui broke the transmitter button, heh
14:50:49 *** setrodox has joined #openttd
15:04:59 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
15:12:51 *** MiHaMiX has joined #openttd
15:13:21 <Wolf01> peter1138, for (uint i = TTW_WIDGET_START; i < TTW_WIDGET_END; i++) { is <= not < :)
15:14:09 <Wolf01> oh, maybe you are still using TTW_WIDGET_SIGN and TTW_WIDGET_STRUCTURES
15:33:04 <neli> when can we have signals on bridges ?
15:33:36 * neli has a very long queue in front of a bridge where trains also need to climb
15:34:14 <Tefad> i think it's signals under bridges
15:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> neli: when you program full flexible bridges
15:35:16 <Tefad> i usually build a little island or similar to build one signal on when there's a queue
15:35:44 <neli> Tefad: it's primarily the climb
15:36:07 <Eddi|zuHause> neli: partial solution: build 2 bridges next to each other, so the trains can choose the free bridge
15:36:09 <neli> maybe I can build two bridges so that two trains can climb paralelly
15:36:16 <Tefad> so build two bridges and distribute them with a presignal block?
15:36:47 <Tefad> man, it's been ages since i've played ottd
15:37:03 <neli> it's quite a complicated crossing already, amongst housing :-S
15:41:32 *** Thomas[NL] has joined #openttd
15:44:40 <UndernotBuilder> Newcargos peter1138 Finished In Nightlies since r9638, 2007-04-15
15:44:46 <UndernotBuilder> is that right? :O
15:44:49 <neli> presignals do not 'look' at the tracks ?
15:45:23 <neli> just 'touchingness', not connectedness
15:46:03 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd revision 9638
15:46:23 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd rev 9638
15:47:19 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd 9638
15:48:34 <UndernotBuilder> I can't find it
15:48:49 <_42_> Commit by Darkvater :: r6938 /trunk/ (gfx.c misc_gui.c order_gui.c) (2006-10-24 23:11:40 UTC)
15:48:51 <_42_> -Codechange: Comments, typo, variable naming, whitespace, strecpy and simplification
15:48:53 <_42_> of order_gui (only disable a single widget if not local player, all others aren't
15:48:57 <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r9638 /trunk/src/ (6 files) (2007-04-15 16:20:35 UTC)
15:48:59 <_42_> -Feature: Increase cargo types from 12 to 32 and enable newcargo flag in NewGRF loader.
15:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause> newcargo is finished, but there is no use for it without newindustries
15:50:22 <UndernotBuilder> for changing acceptance of current industries?
15:51:03 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit latest
15:51:38 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 10000
15:52:04 <UndernotBuilder> I tested that
15:52:20 <UndernotBuilder> but is near :)
15:53:43 *** UndernotBuilder has quit IRC
16:00:12 <peter1138> so did i miss any commits?
16:00:32 * peter1138 sneezes loudly, instead
16:01:28 * mggrant saw one by peter1138 ;)
16:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> grr, missed a space
16:04:52 <neli> trains often seem to choose the 'wrong route' for me :(
16:05:09 <neli> they choose to go through a station pre-signal block
16:05:35 <neli> instead of the 'regular' non-station route
16:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> wrong signalling, i suppose
16:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> pathfinder setting?
16:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you should enable YAPF for trains
16:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so, where's the screenshot?
16:10:19 <neli> need to wait for it to happen
16:12:25 *** DJ_Mirage has joined #openttd
16:12:48 <Maedhros> hmm. all i have to do now is fight with (de)activating both halves of the crossing at once
16:14:26 *** TinoDidri is now known as Jezral
16:15:52 <neli> the light green train is now using the purple route, while it should have chosen the light pink/orange one
16:16:24 <neli> using pink will not need to wait for trains loading at chartfingbourne (pre-signal block there)
16:16:53 <peter1138> neli: probably a high tunnel penalty
16:17:20 <neli> hmm the tunnel is very short
16:17:58 <peter1138> i don't see a tunnel penalty anyway :o
16:18:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say a red signal penalty
16:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> if the signal on the first right turn is red, the train will go straight on
16:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause> solution would be, to remove the straight on route completely
16:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so the train has no choice anymore
16:19:45 <neli> but trains need to be able to go to the top station
16:19:54 <neli> (chartfingbourne, name not visible I see now)
16:20:49 <neli> oh you mean they can go down and up again, anyway
16:21:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but you could move the transition from the right track to the left station track 1 tile, so the train can not turn around there anymore
16:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> could get signalling problems then, but your junction has strange signalling anyway :p
16:21:58 <neli> move 1 tile in what direction ?
16:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> towards the bridge
16:23:25 <neli> then I also need to move the pre-signal
16:23:40 <neli> but there is a merge before the bridge
16:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, then make two entry signals
16:24:01 <neli> can make both those pre-signals
16:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> what use has that 2 way signal behind the depot?
16:25:29 <neli> trains can go from depot onto bridge
16:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a weird junction :p
16:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of very sharp turns
16:27:44 <neli> I could move the depot back one tile, so those two sharp bends will be gone
16:27:49 <neli> if that makes you feel better ;)
16:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> look at my screenshot, no diagonal section is shorter than 3 tiles
16:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, it's cheating, because it uses PBS, but...
16:28:27 <Tefad> that color is peach btw
16:30:06 <neli> Eddi|zuHause: my layouts tend to 'origanically grow' ;-)
16:30:20 <Eddi|zuHause> origamically? :p
16:30:45 <neli> what's the advantage of longer diagonal sections ?
16:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause> trains do not slow down that much
16:31:41 <neli> some trains are on the same track
16:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, that depends on "realistic acceleration"
16:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, PBS are cool :)
16:32:53 <neli> then you don't need as much bridges and tunnels and stuff either
16:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that is not the point
16:33:41 <neli> does PBS work reliably ?
16:34:01 <neli> then I missed the point a bit I'm afraid
16:34:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to be careful
16:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few situations where they do not work, so you have to avoid those
16:34:43 <neli> trains crash into each other sometimes ?
16:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, especially if you a) force them through a signal, b) mess with the signal block and c) they reverse without proper exit signal
16:35:37 *** TronBSD has joined #openttd
16:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but like i said, the point was not about pbs, it was about longer diagonal sections
16:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> which will naturally mean larger junctions, and you might be low on space...
16:37:17 <neli> my junctions tend to be quite cramped
16:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but you will have more places to put signals on
16:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. on your current junction you have tracks that are in the same signal block, but they do not really meet each other
16:39:15 <neli> PBS would solve that, no ?
16:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, PBS should solve that
16:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> bridges over everything might also help your junction
16:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> only there is no version of OTTD that has both features :)
16:41:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is a bridge patch for MiniIN
16:42:27 <neli> your Kreuzstadt station has some tracks reversed direction ?
16:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> each track can be entered from one side, and exited in both
16:43:17 <neli> oh, you allow trains to reverse at stations ?
16:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> PBS does not support real 2-way stations
16:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a vital component of my network ;)
16:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a train can enter each second track
16:46:17 <neli> you never have deadlock problems with these many junctions ?
16:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i do have deadlock problems, but more because of the long trains
16:48:45 <neli> if I don't build bridges to keep the 'main line' free, then exiting trains will get caught up with incoming ones
16:49:44 <neli> I usually allow trains to arrive from two directions and leave in two directions
16:51:17 <Wolf01> [18:43:32] <Eddi|zuHause> PBS does not support real 2-way stations
16:51:18 <Wolf01> neither presignals, but they are still here
16:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> btw. some of my trains are 15 tiles long
16:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i did not say that was the reason why they were not included
16:51:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is the reasoning behind my signalling
16:54:47 <neli> Eddi|zuHause: the things highlighted in light green I cannot allow, I have to build bridges or tunnels for those
16:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i know... that is the main reason why i use PBS
16:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> or, one of the main reasons
16:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the other reason is intelligent presignalling on single-track sections
16:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, the lowest one is on a dead end station, you have those, too :)
16:56:26 <Thomas[NL]> Are PBS like signals used in real-life?
16:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> they are supposed to come close to that, Thomas[NL]
16:57:40 <neli> oh, I couldn't see it was end-of-line
16:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can check out the miniin and try them, but that version is not going to be in the main OTTD version
16:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> no, of course you couldn't, that's why i told you :p
16:58:31 <neli> btw, what's the reason for the (c) disadvantage you listed above: 'they reverse without proper exit signal' ?
16:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it's very technical
16:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if a train cannot find a way to an exit signal, it cannot reserve a path
16:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so when the train reverses (due to long waiting, for example)
16:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and it came through a one way signal
16:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it cannot reserve a path through that signal
16:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so it does not reserve a path at all
16:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so other trains view the track as empty
17:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a misdesign
17:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and the main rejection reason
17:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because it causes crashes without user interference
17:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ln-: err... i had a mouse loooong before i have seen my first windows
17:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and that looks like an apple computer, btw :)
17:02:24 <neli> the picture has a mac lol
17:02:39 <ln-> indeed, and all other sources tend to say that it was apple that first introduced the mouse to consumers.
17:03:04 <Maedhros> ah, but that's not what the caption says ;)
17:03:10 <neli> Eddi|zuHause: but shouldn't the train stop at the one-way signal then ?
17:03:51 <neli> or do other trains run into this signal block
17:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> neli: the train will stop, but other trains do not know the train is there, and enter the block
17:04:24 <neli> when reversing it can at least reserve until the one-way signal ?
17:04:28 <neli> that should prevent a crash
17:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it should, but it was not designed that way
17:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> reserved paths have to end on an exit signal
17:05:30 <neli> or, don't allow trains to reverse :)
17:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> btw. the other main rejection reason was that the code is very ugly, and not maintainable, so nobody really tried to fix these problems
17:06:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a new PBS attempt planned, but it's gonna take some time to do properly
17:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and it is planned from scratch, not trying to fix this failed PBS attempt
17:07:24 <neli> does MiniIN use the same PBS code ?
17:07:43 <Eddi|zuHause> MiniIN uses the old PBS code
17:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> with some minor fixes
17:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause> mainly conflicts with other patches, like realistic acceleration and diagonal crossings
17:14:14 <neli> diagonal crossings as in, crossings of roads and tracks ?
17:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> remember, most patches in the MiniIN have some quirks
17:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and multiplayer is probably unplayable
17:16:28 <neli> do you have your own combination of sources, to be able to play PBS ?
17:16:44 <neli> is realistic acceleration a net speed gain for trains ?
17:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i have miniin, together with a personal patch for bridges over everything
17:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> realistic acceleration adds support for tractive effort
17:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and some other acceleration changes in sharp curves and slopes
17:18:27 <Maedhros> tractive effort is in trunk as well
17:18:49 <Maedhros> and possibly the 0.5 releases too, but i'm not sure about that
17:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure either...
17:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> apply www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/bridge_miniin.diff if you are feeling brave :)
17:22:29 <graeme> do tilting trains get a speed boost on corners in openttd?
17:23:04 <Maedhros> no, not at the moment
17:56:18 *** Digitalfox[Home] has joined #openttd
18:05:09 *** UnderBuilder has joined #openttd
18:05:42 <UnderBuilder> now the request is.... newindustries :]
18:06:55 <Digitalfox[Home]> UnderBuilder: If we send a milion dollars to belugas, he will be fast ;)
18:07:34 *** Twofish has joined #openttd
18:07:41 <UnderBuilder> but there is a question... is really complete newcargos? because it was released too fast :S
18:08:00 <UnderBuilder> or someone bribed peter1138?
18:08:17 <Digitalfox[Home]> Well for what i understand it's finished, but peter1138 will be the best person to answer that
18:11:54 <TrueBrain> we lately get large bribes, so if you want something done, feel free to send one too :p :p :p
18:12:38 <Wolf01> i want a bride instead :P
18:13:47 <peter1138> UnderBuilder: if it's 'too fast' because we've been working on it for a few months, then i don't know what 'too slow' would be
18:20:09 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
18:22:16 <UnderBuilder> but newcargos (NOT newindustries) is fullworking or only partially?
18:28:11 <Thomas[NL]> it says Finished in the roadmap so I presume it is
18:32:45 <neli> Eddi|zuHause: your cities seem kinda boring :P
18:32:50 <neli> quite repetitive buildings
18:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's 1925, and only the standard buildings
18:33:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there are like 5 available
18:37:10 *** Lil_Dood has joined #openttd
18:37:42 <neli> in what year did you start ?
18:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> 1920, but with daylength x32
18:42:16 <neli> a day takes only 2 seconds here or so
18:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and with this setting, a day lasts as long as a month would in a normal game
18:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> so 5 years time would actually be 60 years in a normal game
18:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 years => 160 years
18:45:56 <neli> what's the speed in the original ttd ?
18:46:04 <neli> my feeling says it's faster in openttd
18:46:48 <Maedhros> 74 * 27 microseconds in TTD, 74 * 30 microseconds in openttd
18:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know, but there was a difference between TTD[P] and OTTD, i believe
18:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> see, OTTD is actually slower :)
18:49:44 <Wolf01> i wanted to make the daylength more configurable, without the "xMULTIPLIER" and with "## seconds|minutes|hours" and the last "daylength 1:1"
18:50:32 <Wolf01> but i abandoned the patch when i knew that a daylength will be in the gamebalanche
18:52:57 <UnderBuilder> <Eddi|zuHause> 1920, but with daylength x32
18:53:02 <UnderBuilder> so you use mini in
18:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i said that before
18:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't have everything :p
18:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't customise that...
18:56:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and i can live without newhouses...
18:57:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i could use trams and passenger destinations though...
19:02:48 <peter1138> there's a fat old lady outside the saloon
19:03:29 <peter1138> laying out the credit cards she plays fortune
19:04:48 <michi_cc> Rubidium: I was successfully distracted by work from actually reading irc :)
19:10:54 <Belugas> [14:21] <UnderBuilder> but newcargos (NOT newindustries) is fullworking or only partially?<---- fully working. Just that right now, it does not do very much.
19:11:10 <Belugas> if you look at the sources, you will see
19:11:38 <Belugas> and on this happy note, i resume gardening
19:12:08 <peter1138> i just did a little
19:12:15 <Belugas> also will be the beer afterward :D
19:14:13 <UnderBuilder> I better test a grf that adds a new cargo but no a industry
19:15:30 <peter1138> industries are ignored, of course
19:15:59 <peter1138> george's ecs stuff only works with the newindustry flag set (which is hardcoded to off at the moment)
19:16:18 <peter1138> michael blunck's newcargo grf works too
19:22:56 <peter1138> but it's not like i haven't tested it ;p
19:30:38 <peter1138> and a voice called out
19:36:42 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
19:43:25 *** welterde has joined #openttd
19:43:52 <neli> if a station reaches out to two cities, will it get cargo from both ?
19:44:32 <peter1138> stations get cargo from the area they cover, not from the city
19:45:43 <neli> hmm, so 'max' passengers in a city is if you would cover the whole city ?
19:46:03 <peter1138> can he fail, armed with his chocolate surprise?
19:46:22 <peter1138> it's just the size of the city
19:47:24 <peter1138> Rubidium, sleeping with Juliet
19:48:11 <neli> so the houses outside the coverage area don't generate cargo for that station ?
19:48:54 <neli> so two stations in a large city, with their coverage area not overlapping will never compete for passengers ?
19:54:55 <Wolf01> and if you put 2 piece of the same station with the station walking in way to have the city into a big square where the station tiles are the non-adjacent corners you can gather passengers from the entire city
19:55:11 <peter1138> i don't belong here, said old tessa out loud
19:56:08 <neli> follow the track stupid presignal! :(
19:56:58 <Wolf01> they can't be stupid, they are mathematically correct
19:57:08 <Wolf01> so there is a user error :P
19:57:17 <neli> or the mathematical rules are wrong
19:57:54 <peter1138> signals only care about connections, not paths
20:00:58 <neli> moving a station one square to make space is NP hard
20:01:10 <neli> city rebuilds before I can put it back
20:01:38 <Wolf01> that's why exist the purchase land tool
20:01:58 <neli> even shortcuts are too slow
20:02:27 <glx> destroy, pause, choose the tool, place the cursor, unpause, build
20:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> better than no first time at all :p
20:05:34 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: come in on your second?
20:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> err... no comment :p
20:10:56 *** Osai^2 is now known as Osai
20:12:35 *** dihedral has joined #openttd
20:13:21 <dihedral> when trying to fund a water tower (tropical)
20:13:27 <dihedral> what are the requirements?
20:14:01 <Sacro> otherwise it'll fall over
20:14:18 <dihedral> thanks - very helpful :-P
20:14:29 <dihedral> it sais "site unsuitable"
20:15:06 <dihedral> now that would be odd ... or not?
20:16:29 <tsimpa> how long are your typical rail lines?
20:16:49 <tsimpa> on a 512x512 map, is it good idea to transfer from one end to another?
20:19:18 <neli> the farther the more profit, usually
20:19:21 <peter1138> depends how you want to play :)
20:21:18 <tsimpa> i have monorails, fast as hell
20:21:31 <tsimpa> bad thing is, that there is not much production - gold
20:23:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9712 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Implement accepted cargo types and cargo acceptance (there is a difference) callbacks for newhouses.
20:26:42 <dihedral> i do transfer from one corner to the other
20:27:30 <dihedral> well... not transfer - deliver would be a more suitable word
20:28:02 <dihedral> still think that it is odd having to click on a house to build a water tower...
20:29:29 <neli> do you have to build stations adjacent to have them being connected ?
20:29:55 <neli> or is there some way to combine two stations without them being adjacent
20:31:43 *** welterde_ has joined #openttd
20:32:56 *** welterde_ is now known as welterde
20:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> or, you have to build station tiles in between, and remove them afterwards
20:35:59 <Thomas[NL]> you have to remove one station first, if they are already build
20:47:37 <Wolf01> i'm thinking about activating the invisible trees with the transparency gui, what do you think about ctrl+click on the transparent tree widget?
20:48:37 <Wolf01> (it'll draw also a X on the widget if the invisible trees is enabled, waiting for a new button graphic)
20:50:30 <Wolf01> or maybe a red/green circle like the vehicle stopped/running "led"
20:52:18 <Wolf01> and where i've seen that?
20:53:13 <Wolf01> maybe ttdpatch newgrfs
20:53:57 <Wolf01> or the profit circle in vehicles list
20:59:42 <neli> hehe factory is producing 1800 crates of goods/month
20:59:53 <neli> I'm not keeping up, how strange
21:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, my factory is only producing 17000 per month
21:03:43 <Wolf01> my 198 crates per month
21:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and even worse, i am only transporting 32%
21:06:22 *** Ammlller has joined #openttd
21:06:41 <Wolf01> i'm transporting nothing, only delivering
21:08:33 <neli> 4000 crates of goods on station :)
21:09:01 <tsimpa> neli are you estonian?
21:09:35 <tsimpa> because its an estonian word
21:10:01 <tsimpa> my oil refinery and printing words create 1000 crates of goods combined
21:10:20 <tsimpa> and food processor gives 2500 tons of wood
21:12:40 <tsimpa> how does the train weight affect train speed?
21:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> not speed, acceleration
21:13:43 *** Ammlller is now known as Ammler
21:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so, if F is constant, and m rises, a falls
21:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that combined with F = P/v gives you an idea, how acceleration works
21:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause> P is the power of the engine, v is the current speed, m is the weight of the train
21:17:24 <tsimpa> i have master degree in physics
21:17:32 <tsimpa> but in game, the weight affect top speed
21:18:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the weight only affects top speed if the power of the engine is low
21:18:14 <tsimpa> engine top speed is 336 kmh
21:18:22 <tsimpa> my trains go at ~200 kmh
21:18:32 <peter1138> then there is not enough power
21:18:44 *** tokai|ni has joined #openttd
21:19:00 <tsimpa> maybe i have overloaded?
21:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> try to add another engine
21:19:34 <tsimpa> train has 662 tons of paper payload, and its speed is 215
21:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause> speed is also affected by curves and slopes
21:21:01 <tsimpa> its a straight line, and no acceleration
21:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> with low power, the train reaches its max speed, when the resulting force just suffices to balance out the friction
21:24:48 <Wolf01> i still can't understand how to calculate the max weight for a train from the max tractive effort
21:25:20 <tsimpa> this seems to be solution, but where is the top speed algorithm :)
21:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd start searching at the TrainController function
21:26:36 <peter1138> top speed is just a limit
21:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that picture looks wrong...
21:28:49 <peter1138> it is based on the ancient handling
21:28:50 <Thomas[NL]> the wiki says: Also, second engines can only subtract from the total speed, not add to it., shouldn't total speed be max speed?
21:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought multiheaded engines could not be separated anymore
21:29:45 <Rubidium> Thomas[NL]: what they mean is that the maximum speed is the lowest maximum speed of all wagons/engines
21:30:19 <Thomas[NL]> Ok, that's what I meant.
21:36:32 <tsimpa> i found this from google
21:37:11 <tsimpa> doesnt apply for openttd?
21:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably implemented differently
21:37:50 <tsimpa> Fnet = TEeffective - c0 * W - c1 * W * v - c2 * v2 - Fincl
21:37:57 <glx> TE is not used in OpenTTD yet IIRC
21:38:22 <tsimpa> if the c0, c1 and c2 would be known, then the top speed could be calculated...
21:39:19 <tsimpa> so is there any article about ottd physics formulas?
21:42:42 <peter1138> glx: only since r7592
21:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> !openttd commit 7592
21:43:10 <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r7592 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs) (2006-12-28 13:18:07 UTC)
21:43:12 <_42_> -Feature: Add support for tractive effort to 'realistic' acceleration.
21:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i have only seen that physics patch that was floating around, and it was very underdocumented
21:48:10 <Sacro> oh... tis an old commit *hides*
21:48:48 <peter1138> i shall carry on playing with nars :D
21:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i successfully got Sacro confused :p
21:48:57 <peter1138> with running sounds
21:49:42 <peter1138> hmm, i need more passenger carriages
21:49:51 <peter1138> or maybe another train
22:01:52 <neli> I'd say from a certain speed, air friction is a much larger than rolling resistance
22:02:00 <neli> so weight doesn't matter anymore as much
22:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> air friction should only really matter with speeds > 200km/h
22:08:54 <tsimpa> i read from forum postings, that the answer should be in the sourcecode:
22:09:14 <glx> every answer are in the source :)
22:09:16 <tsimpa> line 87 "GetRealisticAcceleration" of train_cmd.c.
22:09:32 <tsimpa> can anyone say whats in there?
22:09:43 <peter1138> line 87 is blank :D
22:09:56 <tsimpa> well, its rather old reference :)
22:10:32 <peter1138> GetRealisticAcceleration is the old one, heh
22:10:38 <peter1138> which no longer exists
22:10:58 <tsimpa> okay, whats the new formula of "realistic acceleration"?
22:11:16 <peter1138> it's at train_cmd.cpp:289
22:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said previously, i would start searching from TrainController
22:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the acceleration function is probably called directly from there
22:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i have only connected like 15% of my map, and the game already chokes
22:13:08 <tsimpa> hmm, you suggest me downloading the source code :)
22:13:59 <peter1138> this function is ~ 140 lines
22:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the source code used to be viewable from the website, but that was disabled due to performance issues, i believe
22:25:36 *** UnderBuilder has joined #openttd
22:25:56 *** welterde has joined #openttd
22:40:53 * lolman wishes someone would update the PKGBUILD for openttd on Arch :-\
22:42:05 <lolman> I've just had to hack one together from the 0.5.0 one
22:44:35 <Sacro> lolman: who maintains it?
22:45:05 <lolman> Sacro, a guy called vegai
22:45:14 <Sacro> ill see if he is on freenode
22:45:31 <lolman> Dunno if he's away tho
22:46:22 <lolman> He's been idle for nearly 3 hours
22:46:35 <Sacro> hopefully he will get the message on his return
22:47:09 <lolman> My hack didn't work, data files went to the wrong place
22:47:21 <Sacro> whoo, im logged into AUR
22:47:28 <Sacro> now, shall i create a new pkgbui;d
22:47:45 <Sacro> i actually had my package for 0.4.0.1 on sourceforge
22:48:53 <lolman> Right, think I've got it now :)
22:49:07 <Sacro> sling us a pkgbuild when your done
22:49:45 <Sacro> though i could do it myself
22:50:54 <lolman> Hmm it's trying to use my home folder, that's why it won't work :)
22:51:52 <Sacro> do you have a usb mouse?
22:52:24 <Sacro> can you do an "lsmod" and tell me what module it uses
22:52:52 <lolman> I'm using evdev for it :)
22:53:06 <lolman> (Has 7 buttons so standard mouse isn't up to it)
22:53:17 <Sacro> cos i can get my synaptics pad to work
22:54:47 <Sacro> god this pkgbuild is HORRIBLE
22:54:58 <lolman> The openttd one? Tell me bout it
22:55:51 <Sacro> i think it may have previously installed to /opt/openttd/openttd
22:56:48 <Sacro> lolman: radio.zernebok.com:8080/live.mp3.m3u
22:56:57 <Sacro> official openttd radio :p
22:57:33 <Sacro> guru3: yeah, done by people in #tycoon on irc.quakenet.org
22:57:35 <guru3> what does the official openttd radio play?
22:57:41 <Sacro> guru3: depends whose djing
22:57:54 <guru3> it is ttd related right?
22:58:49 <guru3> it's vaugely computer related at least
22:59:21 <Sacro> lolman: PKGBUILD rewrite in progress...
22:59:35 <guru3> guess i'll listen to this for a bit and go back to coding
23:00:11 <Sacro> guru3: its good music to work/code to
23:00:23 <guru3> i dunno, i'm not so thrilled atm
23:02:14 <Sacro> anyone here interested in SimSig?
23:05:23 <lolman> Hmm that station isn't working :-\
23:06:20 <lolman> If I could be bothered installing vlc, sure! :P
23:07:02 <Sacro> lolman: what are you opening it in?
23:07:15 <lolman> Sacro, tried xmms and banshee
23:07:22 <lolman> And yes I have the codecs :P
23:07:38 <glx> you need a player that can work on streams
23:07:45 <Sacro> lolman: should work in xxms
23:07:58 <lolman> vlc fails to play it too
23:08:54 <lolman> Now, if only I could code...haha
23:09:26 <lolman> Still haven't been bothered to go learn
23:10:31 <lolman> I was thinking maybe learn python :P
23:12:12 <lolman> What's so funny bout that? LOL
23:12:55 <guru3> because syntax wise python is really different from everyother language
23:13:28 <lolman> Well what would you suggest as a beginners language?
23:14:01 <guru3> i'd suggest you don't learn programming for the sake of programming. find something you want to program, even if it's just a cheap card game and go from there
23:14:36 <lolman> guru3, I'm not on about _what_ to program, I'm about what to program stuff _in_
23:14:50 <guru3> i know, but if you go with that method it doesn't matter
23:15:01 <guru3> half of programming is know what to look for and what to put where
23:15:08 <guru3> if you can master that any language is a step away
23:15:21 <Sacro> grrm my laptop has lost a sticky foot
23:16:06 <guru3> damn i hate it when that happens
23:16:38 <guru3> 'this song is a request of myself'
23:18:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the programming language really does not matter, the abstract features of most languages are the same, they just have different names
23:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there are like 3 different approaches to programming languages: imperative, functional and object oriented
23:19:52 *** UnderBuilder has joined #openttd
23:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> imperative is probably the easiest
23:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and for beginners, pascal-like languages are often recommended
23:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> C has too many obscure "features"
23:23:06 <guru3> listening to the stream? 'yell'
23:23:11 <guru3> what the hell? IT'S CRY
23:23:23 <guru3> "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to"
23:23:48 <Sacro> orudge still owes me the pound i won
23:23:58 <guru3> basic knowledge to me tho -_-
23:24:05 <guru3> my dad always had oldies radio on in the car
23:24:53 <Sacro> lolman! come to the tt-meet in june!
23:25:03 <lolman> Sacro, what dates, and where?
23:25:07 <Sacro> guru3: june everywhere :p
23:25:13 <Sacro> june err... 30th i think
23:25:21 <guru3> damn, I'll be back in sweden then
23:26:21 <guru3> i'm finally living in the uk, and the good shit happens when i'll be back home -_-
23:26:52 <lolman> I'll just need to get money together :)
23:28:30 <Sacro> well its about £25 in train fares for me
23:29:32 <lolman> Feckin ell it's expensive for me
23:30:09 <lolman> Yeah...but it's like 40 quid :O
23:30:18 <Sacro> click the button for cheaper fares :)
23:30:26 <lolman> Cheapest I've found...
23:31:32 *** setrodox has joined #openttd
23:31:39 <Sacro> nah, go on thetrainline.com
23:31:49 <Sacro> got em down to £12.50 x2 singles
23:32:13 <lolman> I looked, the dirt cheap singles aren't available
23:32:41 * lolman reads the page properlt
23:32:54 <lolman> If I order the tickets day before I travel it'll be £18
23:33:09 <guru3> i've got a student card
23:33:17 <guru3> but i won't be in the damn country on the 30th
23:34:21 <lolman> BTW Sacro, would it be better staying in Brum overnight on the day before so I don't have to get up at like 5am?
23:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm gonna fly over for 200€ :p
23:34:37 *** ThePizzaKing has joined #openttd
23:34:57 <lolman> Sacro, well, call it 6
23:35:05 <Sacro> lolman: im leaving at 9
23:35:10 <Sacro> getting into brum for half 12
23:35:26 <lolman> I was thinking get to Brun for about 10 :P
23:35:27 <Sacro> but i go Humberside - Amsterdam - Dublin - Birmingham
23:35:48 <guru3> the stream is not broadcasting! D:
23:36:05 <guru3> hour and a half train ride for me to biriming ham
23:36:56 <guru3> would cost me like 18 pounds to get there
23:37:04 <lolman> One thing I'm worried about is not recognising anyone
23:37:10 <guru3> no use looking at it tho, know i can't make it :/
23:38:00 * orudge shall be getting the train
23:38:59 <lolman> Sacro, I mean that when I get to the place I'll be thinking "who the hell are these people?"
23:39:40 <lolman> Might have to make a badge with my name on :D
23:42:38 <guru3> then it was looping the it's not playing thing
23:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. a flight Leipzig - Frankfurt - Birmingham (and back) would cost 276€
23:44:01 <lolman> Sacro, how's that PKGBUILD coming along?
23:44:23 <Sacro> lolman: hmm, im rewriting from scratch
23:44:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but flying friday and sunday would probably be the most expensive days :p
23:46:28 <lolman> Sacro, the hack I had compiled it...it just didn't put stuff in the right place
23:46:36 <Sacro> lolman: this one does things properley
23:46:41 <Sacro> then i shall submit to AUE
23:47:06 <Sacro> i wonder where you define MAKEOPTS
23:48:14 * lolman swigs Dandelion and Burdock while Sacro finishes the PKGBUILD
23:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf? 1300€? are they flying via new york??
23:50:39 <lolman> That's a bit over the odds
23:50:49 <lolman> I could get to Australia and back on that
23:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. no... it's the same route... Leipzig - Frankfurt - Birmingham
23:53:14 <Eddi|zuHause> just the 2nd flight is with british airways, instead of lufthansa
23:53:48 <Sacro> lolman: it builds fine, its just remembering what stuff to put into the package after
23:54:01 <Sacro> openttd, data/*, lang/*.lng
23:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets better... 3000€
23:54:16 <lolman> Eddi|zuHause, first class?
23:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "Economy", whatever that is
23:55:04 <lolman> Eddi|zuHause, economy and it's 3k? WTF
23:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Leipzig - Frankfurt - Zurich - Birmingham, with SWISS
23:55:48 <Sacro> lolman: binary goes... but nothing else
23:56:26 <lolman> Eddi|zuHause, still shouldn't be 3k
23:58:47 <Sacro> lolman: testing in progress
23:59:23 <lolman> Send what you have now?
23:59:46 <lolman> Maybe I can hack it together :P
23:59:47 <Sacro> just a ./configure && make
23:59:53 <Sacro> i think it needs some sed magic
continue to next day ⏵
