IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-11-06
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07:57:20 <_zephyris> Hmm, need to remember how to do OGFX2 releases
07:57:26 <_zephyris> Steam is a manual upload, right?
08:15:56 <peter1138> Hmm, so my 4cc branch uses the sprite stack to select the differenet recolours.
08:16:24 <peter1138> I also have another branch which allows selecting a cargo-type-supplied recolour.
08:18:03 <peter1138> I probably need to bring the two together as they conflict on the same mechanism.
09:19:39 <_zephyris> I do somewhat dislike my past self...
09:19:45 <_zephyris> My ogfx2 code is horrbile
09:36:57 <andythenorth> you meant to type cargo-subtype-supplied-recolour? 👀
09:39:14 <peter1138> andythenorth, that's an idea, provide X number of recolours and use subtype as an index.
09:40:00 <andythenorth> rather that, than the CZ sets adding cargos for 'pink', 'green' etc 🙂
09:40:06 <peter1138> For Steeltown you could have molten, hot and cooled subtypes...
09:41:30 <peter1138> (And then change the subtype depending on how long it's been there)
09:41:34 <andythenorth> they didn't, I'm just being mean
09:42:38 <peter1138> Passengers, Commuting Passengers, Holidaying Passengers, Angry Passengers, The-old-lady-who-sits-on-the-bus-all-days-to-socialise-passenger.
09:43:22 <andythenorth> man-eating-cheese-and-sausage passenger
09:43:44 <andythenorth> I have a horrible idea
09:44:04 <peter1138> Man-with-ghetto-blaster-getting-fined-£1000-passenger
09:44:07 <andythenorth> oh it might need vehicle persistent storage
09:44:44 <peter1138> I have a patch for that.
09:44:49 <andythenorth> variant of variants, where the vehicle ID appears in buy menu multiple times, but with different preset persistent storages
09:46:14 <peter1138> (Well, I do think variants being sub-vehicle IDs would've been a better idea)
09:46:24 <andythenorth> well now we have information 🙂
09:46:53 <peter1138> Maybe we could use the cargo subtype field for it?
09:47:53 <peter1138> Also I mean engine ID, as in source-code-land as vehicle ID is the actual instances.
09:50:35 <peter1138> The ultra-realism people need to ensure that specific liveries are only available at specific times.
09:55:18 <peter1138> New NewGRF feature: Define liveries, 4-char label, name, start date, end date, and badge list.
09:55:33 <peter1138> New engine property: livery label list
09:56:39 <peter1138> New vehicle variable expose livery label
09:57:30 <peter1138> Standardised Livery Scheme :o
09:59:01 <peter1138> Autoreplace modified to work with engine id + livery label, not just engine id, leaving the choice of what to replace to the player (bypasses the cargo subtype replacement problem)
09:59:16 <peter1138> Iron Horse becomes 15x smaller
09:59:33 <peter1138> In definitions at least, still massive in sprites.
10:00:37 <peter1138> I think tonypixel is using sprite layers to handle liveries already.
10:18:15 <andythenorth> not really a spec, I'm not good at specs
10:18:27 <andythenorth> probably aged badly in 5 years
10:21:09 <andythenorth> this also wouldn't work, probably assumes every vehicle has every livery available
10:21:18 <andythenorth> hmm....UV mapping, but for 2D sprites? 👀
10:27:51 <andythenorth> it's an old old idea 😛
10:28:29 <andythenorth> and I shouldn't write specs anyway, my ideas are too close to what I want to do in grs
10:31:25 <peter1138> Refit: change cargo type. Refurbish: change livery :o
10:41:27 <peter1138> "Send to depot & refurbish"
10:42:52 <andythenorth> problems with the current Horse way:
10:44:24 <andythenorth> - grf bloat, and very slow compile, currently nearly 30s, could be 18s with fewer vehicles
10:44:24 <andythenorth> - have to use 'reload_newgrfs' to close all open variants in buy menu, which also resets vehicle availability etc
10:44:24 <andythenorth> - no badge filter in auto-replace
10:55:12 <andythenorth> Hmm. Persistent storage + buy menu scripting
12:22:43 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
13:12:55 <peter1138> Just happened to get back in :-)
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16:30:41 <peter1138> Special liveries that can only be used once.
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16:48:45 <_zephyris> Serialised loot box liveries
16:49:25 <peter1138> Locked drops? Pay to enable
16:52:52 <talltyler> One pound direct payment to Andy for every snowplough purchased in-game
16:59:31 <andythenorth> I'd have at least £3
17:00:06 <andythenorth> I was trying to find a $6.40 patreon payment earlier, I pay it every month but there's no record of it in patreon 😛
17:00:14 <andythenorth> maybe I have 2 accounts 😬
17:10:23 <andythenorth> is there an XKCD for 'how long should spend looking for the creds to save $6.40?'
17:19:02 <peter1138> Hmm, `Livery` already refers to the company colour selection stuff.
17:26:30 <peter1138> Although with andythenorth's mock up of the livery window...
17:28:19 <belajalilija> Need any more colour names? c:
17:28:28 <andythenorth> I'm not sure my idea are good 😬
17:29:26 <peter1138> Should "liveries" (as implemented with cargo subtypes or variants) be considered a "company colour choice" rather than a vehicle attribute?
17:30:18 <peter1138> I suspect they are too vehicle-specific.
17:30:39 <peter1138> Add vehicle types to the company colour window?
17:31:03 <andythenorth> everything is just badges
17:31:44 <peter1138> 12000 horse variants in the company colour list :D
17:35:23 <belajalilija> peter1138: What do you mean?
17:36:29 <peter1138> You can change vehicle colours in the company colour window (including by group)
17:36:39 <peter1138> They apply immediately, and there's no charge.
17:37:01 <peter1138> What if custom paint liveries worked the same
17:39:03 <belajalilija> So you’re suggesting a solution to the problem people have with variants doing actual variants and liveries? Sounds good
17:39:39 <belajalilija> I’m not sure how it would work for me since i have like a million private companies in my set but it will help someone yeah
17:40:19 <peter1138> It's highly likely it doesn't make sense
17:40:56 <andythenorth> it's an idea I had 5 years ago, before variants
17:41:02 <andythenorth> it probably sucks, and badges covers a lot of it now
17:41:09 <peter1138> Before chunky bevels.
17:41:15 <andythenorth> and a better font
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17:41:16 <peter1138> Badges are badges, not liveries.
17:41:30 <andythenorth> I don't think liveries ever works
17:41:44 <andythenorth> because not all train vehicles will implement the livery
17:42:00 <peter1138> 17:30 <@peter1138> Add vehicle types to the company colour window?
17:42:12 <peter1138> Which is a silly idea but I'm just throwing ideas out there.
17:43:26 <andythenorth> Horse will get a bit smaller if More Company Colours is merged
17:43:32 <andythenorth> can remove some wagon colours
17:43:57 <andythenorth> or if the grf could install extra company colours, alternatively
17:46:27 <belajalilija> I’ll say my idea anyway
17:47:22 <belajalilija> What if there was a paintbrush tool that if you clicked a vehicle you could change its livery with a dropdown menu
17:48:37 <belajalilija> A dropdown menu that works like the one used to select road and rail types (both old and new scrolling methods)
17:48:48 <andythenorth> I had a mockup of that years ago
17:48:58 <andythenorth> it got shot down for being ugly and unlearnable
17:49:05 <andythenorth> can't find the image though
17:49:29 <talltyler> I assume you have considered and rejected automatic wagon colours based on their cargo type?
17:49:31 <belajalilija> However this is implemented an image of the vehicle needs to be there
17:49:40 <talltyler> I guess autorefit at stations would make that look silly 🙂
17:49:56 <andythenorth> "what is liveries?"
17:50:02 <andythenorth> liveries aren't clocks?
17:50:55 <belajalilija> I mean we should all agree that a livery shouldn’t alter the size or performance of a vehicle
17:50:58 <andythenorth> a stopped clock is wrong twice a day
17:51:21 <andythenorth> red trains do go faster though
17:52:07 <andythenorth> last time I checked, the problem with liveries was things like this
17:52:21 <andythenorth> those were all set to 'Virgin' via cargo subtypes
17:52:26 <belajalilija> andythenorth: What if it exists within the owned vehicles menu, where you change group colours?
17:52:58 <belajalilija> andythenorth: This is why an image of the vehicle is needed
17:53:03 <andythenorth> is the main reason for liveries that players don't want vehicle stats reset?
17:53:14 <andythenorth> that's the only explanation I am aware of
17:53:37 <andythenorth> many things obvs I am not aware of
17:53:37 <belajalilija> I’m not aware of another
17:54:11 <peter1138[d]> Variants cause bloat and are tricky for AIs to deal with as they evaluate things differently than humans.
17:54:21 <peter1138[d]> Variants where the stats are different are fine.
17:54:26 <andythenorth> nmlc info: Train items: 11780/65420
17:55:01 <andythenorth> so about 6:1 approx bloat
17:55:13 <peter1138[d]> And while I was thinking of ways to have variant-liveries behave more like cargo-subtype-liveries, the hierarchy system kept getting in the way.
17:56:18 <peter1138> 1598 wagons, and none of those are variants of each other?
17:56:58 <andythenorth> some are variants drawn in sprites
17:57:19 <belajalilija> here's my mockup, make without ai
17:57:43 <andythenorth> 5 generations of wagons, 2 railtypes, 3 lengths
17:58:28 <andythenorth> and the 'randomised' which the game could do in a number of ways
17:59:41 <belajalilija> while i am here being a thorn in your sides
17:59:51 <belajalilija> im gonna expand my mockup
18:00:05 <belajalilija> because i use both variants and refits for liveries
18:02:19 <peter1138> Well, basically if the concensus is "picking livery should be done on a per-vehicle basis", like is done with cargo subtypes and variants, then that is probably what makes sense to do.
18:02:41 <peter1138> Just exploring, as we have the colour selection stuff on the side, which is... sort of adjacent/overlapping/
18:04:50 <belajalilija> this is what i use refits for
18:05:27 <peter1138> Are the stats for all those "MY II" variants the same?
18:05:59 <belajalilija> i didnt wanna bring 2cc into the purchase menu because it felt cluttered
18:06:20 <belajalilija> and 2cc isnt really the goal of my set either, just a neat side feature
18:06:40 <peter1138> Do you do 2CC versions for all of them or was it just that particular style?
18:06:51 <belajalilija> everything has 2cc versions
18:07:03 <belajalilija> every vehicle in the set
18:07:55 <belajalilija> the base sprites are basically 8bpp with cc1 blue and i use cc2 green to say where colour 2 goes
18:08:13 <belajalilija> i have cases where 4cc will also be useful
18:09:54 <belajalilija> im sure you can figure out what is going on here and why 4cc will also be neat
18:10:23 <belajalilija> i wanted to have the cab cars match the colour of the locomotive
18:11:35 <belajalilija> some companies never bought the cab car so they work like this
18:12:00 <belajalilija> it gives players a lot of choice for how they want things to look
18:13:02 <peter1138> Hmm, is that a custom palette for the non-CC one?
18:13:13 <peter1138> (Or a different sprite)
18:13:38 <belajalilija> custom palette, the code recolours things, idk how it works on a technical level
18:15:34 <peter1138> Okay, so what if livery/paintjob has a label, a name, a description (extra detail for foamers), perhaps a min/max date to allow for "this becomes available layer" stuff, and then a palette option.
18:15:51 <belajalilija> with this locomotive i tell the code to make the cc1 blue into NSBRED and cc2 green into GREY10 (which is black)
18:16:26 <peter1138> Sounds like inventing too many ways to do things :(
18:17:06 <belajalilija> oh my bad, i forgot the years are different between different things
18:17:51 <peter1138> I assumed that's why you have different liveries with the same name.
18:18:11 <belajalilija> i do descriptions but they're not often livery specific and i do plan to make a PDF for the grf, i'd be happy to put specific descriptions there
18:19:39 <peter1138> Hmm, we already have 2 ways to specific palettes.
18:20:23 <belajalilija> with these 4 only the year and operators change, but operators can be badges
18:20:35 <peter1138> Sprite stack and callback 2D.
18:21:57 <peter1138> But those methods mean every vehicle that implements a livery has to repeat all the work.
18:23:34 <peter1138> If the livery choice decides the palette, then the vehicle only needs to return the correct sprite. Hmm.
18:24:45 <peter1138> But internally I can't call them Livery because Livery is always used as a name :(
18:41:56 <belajalilija> belajalilija: I’m curious what andythenorth thinks of this given i know horse is quite variant heavy for similar reasons
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18:43:34 <tony_pixel> belajalilija: what's the discussion about?
18:45:14 <belajalilija> tony_pixel: A way to handle liveries that doesn’t mean using refits or variants
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19:30:22 <andythenorth> -> went to fireworks -> much livery discussion 😮
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19:37:03 <andythenorth> belajalilija: I'm potato / potato
19:37:51 <andythenorth> I'm more interested in randomised stuff, something like a consist template with random choice per vehicle slot would do more for me
19:39:56 <belajalilija> I’m sure we’d get use out of what ever happens
19:40:48 <belajalilija> I plan to have real wagons in my set but only a few, i want a horse-like set of generic ones mostly
19:41:57 <belajalilija> I’ll just use real ones for anything i find interesting or for stuff like mail and fast goods which are often based on passenger carriage designs
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20:18:26 <andythenorth> what's that other train game that has variants?
20:21:07 <andythenorth> the spec is remarkably similar in some ways
20:41:54 <andythenorth> so how much of this would we delete?
20:57:06 * peter1138 tries to remember what didn't work about fons.
21:01:13 <squirejames> (I know peter can't see that but)
22:39:47 <andythenorth> hmm what if every group could set vehicle type colours (engines, wagons etc)
22:43:31 <andythenorth> it was adding these single-colour wagons that really killed Horse
22:43:52 <andythenorth> increased train count from about 9900 to 11800
22:44:03 <andythenorth> and made all the variant lists just a bit long
22:45:27 <andythenorth> what if the randomness was moved into the livery feature (call it swatches or colourways or something)?
22:47:03 <andythenorth> and pool liveries across grfs, so livery-grfs could be bade
22:47:15 <andythenorth> offer 32bpp for the brave?
22:51:26 <will_marshall_> andy what is wrong with 1cc/2cc?
22:53:02 <will_marshall_> why do you need hopper (green) and hopper (blueish) to be distinct vehicle types. these things have the same design!
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22:59:32 <will_marshall_> actually if i'm throwing rocks from the peanut gallery: too many roof hoppers
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23:08:27 <yiffgirl> i suppose the idea is to be able to replicate the smorgasbord of colours seen in real-life consists. but surely there is a better way to achieve this?
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