IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-10-26
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03:58:09 <sirarthur09> Im actually developing a mobile friendly layout for OpenTTD rn
03:58:52 <sirarthur09> Should I PR it once im done to the mobile dist?
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04:08:11 <squirejames> Should I ask the obvious question?
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04:16:36 <belajalilija> sirarthur09: AI assist?
04:17:05 <sirarthur09> belajalilija: Somewhat, but I am doing a ton of it.
04:17:51 <belajalilija> sirarthur09: Yeah, no need to PR then, because it won’t happen
04:18:06 <sirarthur09> belajalilija: They anti AI here?
04:18:37 <belajalilija> Also the screenshot channel isn’t for what you posted in it
04:19:03 <sirarthur09> belajalilija: Why thankfully
04:19:45 <belajalilija> sirarthur09: I don’t need to explain myself
04:20:21 <sirarthur09> belajalilija: Lol k, if I redid it all completely manually would they accept it? I feel like it's been long needed
04:23:27 <sirarthur09> Im a good programmer, and use AI assisted dev. But I can do it manually if needed
04:23:47 <belajalilija> sirarthur09: No idea
04:23:47 <belajalilija> There is already a mobile port of the game that is made by a different team, something being long needed doesn’t mean it will happen, what happens is what devs feel like doing, what is actually needed and what the devs do typically align
04:24:53 <belajalilija> The problem with slop projects is that they need maintaining by people other than yourself, and that they exist
04:25:22 <sirarthur09> belajalilija: Kinda annoying, I mean open source dev is supposed to be kinda... open-source
04:25:38 <sirarthur09> belajalilija: No I understand, I can do it manually
04:26:10 <belajalilija> sirarthur09: It’s open source, you’re perfectly welcome to make your own fork
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05:24:43 <kaibaneddy> The mobile port isn't an official release anyway, it's already a fork
05:25:28 <kaibaneddy> So the official ai policy is moot...
05:28:52 <belajalilija> I got the impression they wanted it to be part of the official release
05:29:14 <belajalilija> Else wouldn’t they try to approach mobile port devs about this?
05:39:13 <belajalilija> The other possibilities are that they didn’t know the mobile ports existed or that they thought it was the same team
05:40:50 <belajalilija> All options would appear to be a result of varying degrees of lack of awareness given that it seems silly to make a whole thing without even knowing who you’re making it for
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07:17:06 <peter1138> Hmm, translator.openttd.org is broken.
07:24:43 <peter1138> Ah, LordAro's Python 3.15 update seems to have killed it.
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07:52:53 <masteroktagon> I just want to know for the future: does the JetBrains Code Completion count as AI (I mean it is kinda intelligent)
07:54:47 <peter1138> These days, if you don't know, assume yes...
07:55:37 <masteroktagon> I dont juse JetBrains anyway so not a problem for me personally anyways
07:55:52 <peter1138> Yes, I figured you were "just asking questions".
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07:56:51 <kuhnovic> The main thing I that we really don't like PRs where the author doensn't have a clue what the code does and why it's good or not good (with AI it's typically the latter). It doesn't really matter how big or small the PR is. This project is made by humans for humans, and reviewing slop is just a total waste of time.
07:57:45 <masteroktagon> peter1138: No really lemme make a picture of My Desktop
07:59:48 <kuhnovic> You don't have to prove yourself. But we have the right to say "this looks like AI slop, we're not going to review it".
08:00:08 <masteroktagon> Fair I understand. Makes sense to me.
08:02:25 <belajalilija> I wonder when the last day was on this server that no discussion of AI or mention of it took place
08:03:11 <belajalilija> Even a year ago it woulda been most days
08:03:12 <kuhnovic> I myself am one of the few souls here that isn't completely anti-AI, but slop-PR's (both at work and here) really piss me off
08:04:34 <belajalilija> I’m not anti AI so much as i am anti the line between Internet and reality becoming blurred further
08:05:09 <belajalilija> LLMs as we know them couldn’t have existed if internet usage was at pre 2010s levels
08:06:39 <LordAro> that's an interesting take
08:06:53 <belajalilija> I use AIs as a search engine when i can’t find something via regular methods like google, but never as a source of information
08:06:53 <belajalilija> I’ve heard good things about AI in medicine
08:06:53 <belajalilija> Otherwise i hate the whole thing but chalk it’s existence up to something else that i hate
08:06:55 <LordAro> (not entirely sure whether i agree with it, but i like it)
08:07:13 <mnhebi> sirarthur09: sadly, the field is going through bit of a split.
08:08:13 <LordAro> in other news, i may have made iron-horse.nml parse in half the time
08:08:38 <LordAro> ..but first i need to actually work out what the LLM has done and throw away everything else and rewrite it myself
08:08:39 <belajalilija> Facebook and Twitter were a metaphorical plague and later covid was a literal plague for anything good about the internet
08:09:22 <peter1138> LordAro, any idea how to poke at eints-prod? Job failed but no obvious to look at logs or repoke it.
08:11:29 <peter1138> Ah, figured out how to poke it now.
08:11:33 <peter1138> Terminated: Exit Code: 1, Exit Message: "Docker container exited with non-zero exit code: 1" :/
08:11:42 <LordAro> 3.15 eints deploy seems to have failed
08:11:48 <LordAro> may or may not be related
08:12:22 <peter1138> Yeah I'm poking on nomad.
08:13:08 <peter1138> Ah ha, now it's poked and tried to start, I can see the fail logs.
08:13:52 <peter1138> ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'cgi'
08:16:30 <peter1138> Commit message failed :)
08:17:28 <andythenorth> LordAro you vibe coded a rust compiler for nml? 😮
08:18:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: nope, all still PLY python
08:19:57 <andythenorth> Does it delete 60%?of the vehicles? 👀
08:20:10 <LordAro> dunno, but regression tests all pass
08:21:12 <andythenorth> I got about 3 seconds off the local compile with 2 LLM changes and the nfo bytes unchanged
08:21:32 <andythenorth> Local compile is about 15s ish
08:22:08 <peter1138> > A user you’ve blocked has previously contributed to this repository.
08:22:21 <andythenorth> Wasn’t enough to investigate further, but your numbers are a lot better 😮
08:22:48 <LordAro> andythenorth: the trick is to ask it to try again
08:22:51 <peter1138> None of the commits have claude mentioned, so... are they hiding it?
08:22:54 <LordAro> but yeah, i still need to investigate
08:23:56 <andythenorth> My testing has that patch applied already
08:25:35 <peter1138> Your change is how I intended it to be anyway, just my python skills suck :p
08:26:22 <andythenorth> I guess we now find out if my caching skills suck 😬
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08:27:12 <peter1138> Anyone know why we limit script strings to 255 characters when saving them?
08:27:59 <peter1138> The data format is bad, we just store the length in a byte.
08:29:07 <peter1138> This code does seem to misuse the saveload system :o
08:35:07 <peter1138> LordAro, anyway, that fixed it, thanks :D
08:37:16 <peter1138> Okay, so the script saveload stuff treats it all as a stream of bytes.
08:48:53 <LordAro> need to upgrade bottle first next time
08:49:57 <LordAro> and some amount of local testing
08:57:41 <andythenorth> shipping is testing no?
08:58:11 <andythenorth> this is not my day job, where QA is primary 😛
09:00:33 <peter1138> In this case, just merging to main deploys it.
09:04:29 <peter1138> Hmm, 404 on /favicon.ico :o
09:04:35 <peter1138> Not an issue, just noises the logs.
09:04:59 <peter1138> (Yes I did just verb a noun)
09:50:12 <peter1138> There's now a gamescript to play the game for you.
09:50:42 <peter1138> ("Claude" involved, of course)
09:52:44 <andythenorth> in Iain Banks sci-fi, all the AI Minds are basically playing Civilisation in Infinite Fun Space
09:53:00 <andythenorth> now Claude can play OpenTTD
09:53:45 <peter1138> Well it's player controlled with storybook buttons.
09:53:52 <andythenorth> now some advanced statistics can simulate playing OpenTTD
10:04:15 <peter1138> Hmm, if I tell NewGRFs that inflation is off, regardless...
10:07:15 <peter1138> Only issue is don't play with IH so I can't compare :p
10:14:29 <peter1138> I should probably go with the simplified roster.
10:14:51 <peter1138> Hmm, still a bit too much for me.
10:14:57 <andythenorth> you don't want 11,872 trains to choose from?
10:15:06 <andythenorth> there's a GS that can do it for you though
10:15:41 <andythenorth> dare I suggest widgets and toggles to let players set their own inflation values?
10:15:48 <andythenorth> so they can screw themselves over :p
10:19:38 <andythenorth> hmm inflation GS
10:23:09 <peter1138> There is one, in the game settings.
10:23:15 <mnhebi> andythenorth: ah, I really should pick up The Culture books some day
10:23:32 <mnhebi> I read through The Polity series by Ian Asher which apparently takes some inspiration..
10:23:50 <peter1138> Well, not independent, but one is always 1 percentage point above.
10:24:57 <andythenorth> isn't this the opposite of the current economic theory? 👀
10:24:58 <peter1138> But yes, allowing separate income and expenditure inflation, and then allowing GS to control it...
10:25:10 <andythenorth> I thought we put interest rates up to try and control inflation?
10:25:18 <andythenorth> it's all a game anyway 😛
10:25:25 <peter1138> OpenTTD is not an economic simulator :D
10:26:17 <andythenorth> have these players who want all these economic features...read that page of the manual? 👀
10:26:39 <andythenorth> ~~Dwarf~~ Keynsian Fortress
10:27:18 <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon 3 was a very good economic simulator
10:27:23 <andythenorth> the train stuff was all automated
10:27:43 <andythenorth> the main game was creating stock market booms, then selling off just before the crash
10:28:00 <peter1138> All we need is realistic economy and train shunting
10:28:10 <andythenorth> the shunting thread is going brilliantly
10:28:27 <andythenorth> as foreseen, turns out "everyone agrees what shunting is"
10:28:39 <andythenorth> and they only need 1000 word posts to show how much they agree
10:28:54 <Izzybee> the important thing to remember about inflation is that money is made up and the points don't matter /lh
10:28:58 <peter1138> I skipped over all that because it's on top of slop.
10:30:42 <andythenorth> is inflation unbounded? Or does it run just over specific time frame?
10:32:21 <andythenorth> and there's some PRs
10:32:41 <andythenorth> I no longer remember last week, nvm 6 years ago 😛
10:54:15 <peter1138> Increase / Decrease Loan.
10:54:30 <peter1138> I should ask my bank for that.
10:56:06 <will_marshall_> railroad tycoon has bond issuance rather than a... whatever financial instrument this is.
10:56:22 <will_marshall_> bond issuance seems like a "more fun" financial object.
10:56:28 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3 also has short selling and margin purchases
10:59:27 <LordAro> railroad tycoon was just a stock trading game with some trains attached
11:00:01 <will_marshall_> I know that, I was always disappointed as a kid when I would pirate RRT2 and it wasn't at all like TTD.
11:01:53 <LordAro> i could never figure out how to make any money with it
11:02:05 <LordAro> iirc i just used to buy the best trains and fully upgrade the stations
11:03:00 <will_marshall_> Imagine if I'd gotten obsessed with the financial side instead of the train side, I would be a filthy rich programmer instead of a filthy one.
11:35:59 <mnhebi> LordAro: so, in other words, an economic simulator?
11:38:57 <mnhebi> I was always too focused on trains in RRT3 multiplayer that I got bought out every time I was starting to have a nice empire ;_;
11:39:25 <talltyler> I miss frosch cow-reacting every release post (after being banned from Discord channel #pet-pics for posting cow pics). I have taken up the mantle. 🙂
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11:47:02 <andythenorth> bring back the quak
11:47:40 <will_marshall_> Okay so what default vehicle's stats are we changing next >:)
11:47:53 <andythenorth> the default trams obvs
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11:48:05 <mmtunligit> will_marshall_: chaney jubilee
11:49:13 <talltyler> I vote we make the Kirby Paul Tank available from year 1.
11:50:38 <talltyler> Or steal will_marshall_'s moonwalking horses for the base game
11:51:27 <will_marshall_> Re: fw: re we should talk about a suggested newgrf delivery system again, maybe make a mockup.
11:57:29 <andythenorth> I had claude make one, I will put it in a powerpoint and send it over
11:58:01 <andythenorth> can someone send me the Office password again?
11:58:43 <andythenorth> I made it in Copilot
12:02:28 <LordAro> hmm, guess that doesn't work anymore
12:04:00 <talltyler> Last Discord post May 24, 2025, although actually posting on Discord is different than logging into IRC and reading along without saying anything so this doesn't say much IMO.
12:20:18 <peter1138> My Discord server still doesn't get the notifications :(
12:21:33 <peter1138> Ah, it was got eventually.
12:49:17 <_glx_> Hmm I really should work on splitting preview workflow, can be useful for eints
12:51:50 <_zephyris> SVG's not wildly useful, just skips a preprocessing step
12:52:03 <peter1138> It's scalable, that was the main thing.
12:52:23 <_zephyris> Did it do fractional scaling?
12:52:43 <peter1138> Only really useful for UI decorations tbh.
12:53:05 <peter1138> So back in the day... the UI decoration were actually drawn as text, but in my infinite wisdom I changed them to simple sprites.
12:53:29 <peter1138> If we changed back to drawing at text then they could be scalable again.
12:55:44 <talltyler> What are UI decorations? Pin icon for location, etc.?
12:56:23 <peter1138> Text stuff can have colours though, so general button icons not included.
13:02:26 <talltyler> Low-priority bug anyway
13:05:14 <peter1138> I mean, I have a patch for freely scaling sprites, but it's not great.
13:05:32 <peter1138> It still works at the sprite encoding level, rather than rendering.
13:06:34 <peter1138> Heh looks like I had opinions on that issue :)
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13:35:39 <LordAro> I guess upgrading dibridge to 3.15 hasn't magically fixed the uptime issue
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13:40:56 <jfkuayue> I am rofl-ing when I see Peter's keyboard slip
13:42:21 <peter1138> That genuinely was the dog :)
13:42:30 <peter1138> Unless you mean something else.
13:53:36 <DorpsGek> - Add: summary for week 43 of 2026 (by OpenTTD Survey)
13:54:54 <peter1138> Why do we have so many blitters. Hmm.
13:55:16 <peter1138> Also the SSE ones make it a bit of a pain to change anything.
14:08:39 <peter1138> I wonder if a combination of the current OpenGL blitter and my old ancient one could actually work.
14:12:15 <_jgr_> The SSE3/4 sprite rendering blitters are not used by default and are not really a net performance benefit anyway. They could just be ditched without anyone missing much.
14:13:07 <peter1138> Even with "Hardware Acceleration" disabled?
14:13:47 <_jgr_> The SSE2 palette animation is used in that case and is beneficial.
14:15:34 <_jgr_> The SSE3/4 sprite renderers have a much larger encoded sprite format which larger negates the benefit of a nominally slightly faster renderer.
14:41:31 <peter1138> Clicking on dropdowns in Jira and they keep moving around :o
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14:44:18 <andythenorth> google meet does that currently, the "join meet" button is drawn on first paint, then an "upgrade" button is painted in async afterwards, moving the "join meet" button to the left
14:44:29 <andythenorth> gets a bit frigging old, given it's a paid account
14:44:42 <andythenorth> I guess some gets to hit an OKR this quarter though
14:46:08 <peter1138> So, maybe OpenGL to blit from in-GPU sprite to in-GPU texture, and then at the end the in-GPU texture is redrawn.
14:46:38 <peter1138> Currently the OpenGL blitter renders sprites in software to a software buffer, which is then copied to the GPU, and then drawn.
14:47:06 <peter1138> No idea if it's feasible :)
14:47:54 <peter1138> If it is then you can get non-integer scaling for free.
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15:15:54 <peter1138> Well, of course there's coding to be done.
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15:18:01 <will_marshall_> peter1138: My pet hate. I have previously crashed out and had to go for a walk after my 3rd attempt to mark a ticket as closed failed due to the async loading of project-specific statuses.
15:18:37 <will_marshall_> To be fair to JIRA at least it doesn't have some of the absolutely terrible "please reload the page to updater your app" messages of other software.
15:18:44 <will_marshall_> JIRA is crap every time, but it's predictable crap.
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16:40:41 <_glx_> looks like some unexpected `git add`
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18:03:49 <_zephyris> Crossover from developing a better build pipeline.
18:25:12 <andythenorth> LordAro local run times (I ran several runs, pretty consistent)
18:25:12 <andythenorth> without 454: `Parsing ... 5.3 s`
18:25:12 <andythenorth> with 454: `Parsing ... 2.5 s`
18:26:52 <LordAro> wait, that's your parse time with the massive iron-horse.nml ?
18:27:01 <LordAro> mfw order of magnitude
18:29:01 <andythenorth> I can never remember the % maths for improvements
18:29:12 <andythenorth> half the time is 50% faster?
18:33:41 <LordAro> i did experiment with cython as well - made no difference
18:34:43 <andythenorth> are your numbers on 3.x or pypy?
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20:48:33 <peter1138> Bah, this wad file uses PNGs which is... nonstandard.
20:58:27 <will_marshall_> Two people complaining about build times but I at least know it's my own stupid fault.
21:01:09 <andythenorth> did you also add nearly 12k trains?
21:01:55 <will_marshall_> No, the perversion is in a different form.
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21:02:16 <squirejames> will_marshall_: "I demand the build time be *longer* "
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21:02:52 <will_marshall_> If the build time is longer and the binary is bigger that means it's more feature complete, James.
21:02:58 <will_marshall_> Maximalism Means Maximalism.
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21:07:52 <rito12_13> I did NRZI in rust and it was fun
21:08:56 <rito12_13> rust is strange but fun
21:21:29 <peter1138> Rust's lack of shared libraries though.
21:23:16 <rito12_13> You can't have everything.
21:24:29 <rito12_13> Otherwise you end up with something like LLMs.
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