IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-10-08
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07:49:14 <merni> Is there any widget in the game that cycles through a set of images every time it's clicked?
08:25:39 <peter1138> Nothing "built-in" to do that, but a window can just change the button's image in its click handler.
08:26:24 <peter1138> There is a standard button for "show sprite + 1 when the button is lowered".
08:35:10 <peter1138> I'm really not sure what andythenorth's post is trying to achieve.
08:37:23 <merni> peter1138: that makes sense, thanks
08:38:02 <merni> for context, I am trying to write a patch to rework the transparency menu and the tick-y options in the settings dropdown that show/hide things
08:38:40 <peter1138> merni, it would also be the window's responsibility to make sure the widget is large enough for all of the images. Or you can just assume they're all the same size if lazy.
08:39:20 <merni> I had the idea, instead of having a button that toggles transparancy and an unlabelled button below for invisibility, to have a single button that cycles through a normal-looking icon > a transparent-looking icon > no icon (or maybe a crossed-out icon)
08:39:56 <merni> now that I think about it doesn't seem like a very good idea and also would mean making a number of new sprites
08:44:30 <peter1138> merni, correct, a blank button is a terrible idea :)
08:44:51 <peter1138> merni, we can 'shade out' and existing sprite by drawing a chequer pattern over it though.
08:45:13 <peter1138> However that is already used to indicate that the button is disabled.
08:45:16 <merni> Well, they are already around :)
08:46:28 <peter1138> Okay, yes. but you know what I mean.
08:47:39 <merni> Prima facie it makes sense to me to unify all these into a single set of settings instead of having some in the dropdown and some in transparency settings (and some duplicated!) without any clear rationale.
08:47:39 <merni> But coming up with a design that's clear and also retains some of the compactness of the Transparency Options window is hard
08:48:04 <peter1138> If any of the sprites on that window were to disappear it would be a UX problem because you wouldn't know which one to click to re-enable it.
08:48:31 <merni> I mean, that is equally true of the existing design
08:48:53 <merni> I was thinking a text label plus a button with the icon, but that would make the window much larger
08:48:58 <peter1138> Somewhat, but least you know that the trees button is going to affect trees.
08:50:50 <peter1138> Basically all I'm saying is a redesign needs to be better, not just different. I guess.
08:51:02 <peter1138> And er, maybe that is "hostile" but.
08:51:21 <merni> No, I get that, I am still thinking how to make it better
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08:52:38 <peter1138> Kinda difficult to have icons to represent transparent and hidden, by their nature.
08:54:21 <peter1138> Also needs to respect the hot-key toggle behaviour (not that that would change by itself anyway)
08:54:22 <merni> Hmm how about separating it into "label visibility" and "object visibility" (for lack of better names)
08:54:22 <merni> Because all the types of names, loading texts and so on only have a Visible/Invisible choice essentially. There's another choice on top which is whether to draw a box behind names and signs, which the game calls "transparency for signs".
08:54:22 <merni> Whereas, actual objects on the map like trees, houses etc actually have a transparency fucntionality
08:54:35 <merni> peter1138: Yeah and locking
08:55:40 <peter1138> One way to unify that might be to use hidden as the main feature, so that the general behaviour is to show/hide things (labels, 'objects'...), and then have transparency as a side-feature of the things that can be transparent.
08:56:40 <merni> That makes sense, I'm just thinking about how to present that in the UI without it becoming too big
08:57:18 <merni> It would be not that hard to make the whole thing a long list of text labels with a Visible/Invisible/Transparent choice next to each one
08:57:19 <peter1138> hehe, multple button states. Raised -> Lowered -> Jammed into the switch -> Ripped off ->
08:57:42 <merni> Locked = covered with sellotape
08:58:32 <merni> But for whatever reason it feels like it's important that this window should be quite small and unobtrusive. Not sure why, I guess it's just because the existing transparency options window is
09:00:55 <merni> Also I would like to replace the "Competitor's signs and names" thing with a more granular option of setting "Off / Only my own / All" for each type of label. But that would again mean dropdowns
09:07:39 <merni> hmm I think I will just get it working with an ugly text filled UI and then think about the rest :)
09:43:12 <peter1138> _zephyris, found my patch to implement special whitespace handling in the fallback layouter. I'll make a PR later.
09:44:08 <_zephyris> I haven't had a chance to read/digest the PR comments BTW
09:44:35 <peter1138> Ah, basically we should just fix the 1 broken translation :)
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12:00:03 * peter1138 ponders revisiting my FontSearcher branch.
12:22:31 <peter1138> "We need to attract new users" ... I've had to approve a lot of first-time posters in the forums.
12:26:09 <peter1138> Admittedly some of them are complaining about how much they are insulted by me calling AI tools slop generators.
12:27:22 <tony_pixel> never expected calling things their names would be offensive
12:30:46 <mnhebi> Do you also call intellectually challenged individuals the r-word?
12:31:50 <mnhebi> There are all kinds of reasons why people might find your dismissal rude.
12:32:12 <mnhebi> Its like saying a train set is not wanted cause the author has no idea how to shade properly
12:32:31 <tony_pixel> r-word is an offensive derivative of a name, it's not "their name"
12:32:53 <mnhebi> And Slop is not the name for AI tool helped or derived projects
12:32:54 <tony_pixel> mnhebi: no it isn't, wanted or not wanted is subjective
12:33:43 <tony_pixel> a purpose of an LLM or text-to-image tool is exactly the generation of a text by an algorithm that attempts to minimize inconsistency between produced patterns and learned patterns, it doesn't think
12:33:44 <peter1138> I called "AI tools" "slop generators" because they generate slop. That is not calling people slop.
12:34:09 <tony_pixel> it literally generates slop because it's its purpose
12:34:17 <emperorjake> Slop used to just mean large quantities of low-quality content. While it's true that AI made slop easier to produce, applying the word to any and all AI-generated content makes it lose its meaning.
12:34:18 <tony_pixel> I wouldn't call other people's art "slop"
12:34:49 <tony_pixel> it doesn't lose it's meaning, Jake, I literally call the thing what it is
12:35:10 <yiffgirl> mnhebi: what the fuck?
12:35:28 <tony_pixel> however sophisticated LLM algorithm, if it's just an attention layer and backprop, it generates slop, because it doesn't have a bit of thought about what it says
12:35:43 <LordAro> can we not go round this loop again?
12:35:59 <tony_pixel> I don't want to, I just reply to an accusation
12:36:54 <tony_pixel> one thing is using ai to generate a second layer to draw line art from, another is saying "I made a patchpack" and it's 450 commits full of ai-generated changes
12:37:27 <tony_pixel> both are bad, but one is at least understandable because you would use a reference anyway
12:38:08 <tony_pixel> anyway, I don't think anyone's going to change their position on this topic from this conversation and those that follow it, so we can stop anyway
12:42:44 <yiffgirl> contrary to what they tell you the primary purpose of online debate is posturing, signaling as to what is acceptable in $current_space
12:42:44 <yiffgirl> i don't think anyone in the history of the internet has ever changed their minds from it
12:42:51 <_glx_> And very often the "author" didn't even check the output
12:43:01 <mnhebi> peter1138: So, a senior coder who uses AI for commit messages and codebase lookthrough produces slop even though every line of code was hand written by them?
12:43:08 <LordAro> yiffgirl: but but someone is *wrong* on the internet
12:43:25 <LordAro> you know what answer you're going to get
12:44:09 <mnhebi> So you advocate the inherent hostility to a certain user because of the tools they use?
12:44:18 <mnhebi> that is what this community has come to?
12:44:30 <LordAro> i will have you banned
12:44:33 <_glx_> There's a different between using a tool to assist you and using it to replace you
12:44:54 <mnhebi> and some people put a lot of thought into using those tools
12:45:29 <yiffgirl> if you shit in the common room, pardon my french, don't be surprised when you get kicked out
12:45:42 <mnhebi> Nobody is shitting in the common room though
12:45:52 <mnhebi> Your opinion does not dictate what passes the smell test
12:45:53 <_glx_> But the "replace" usage is the slop generation one
12:46:09 <emperorjake> Yeah this doesn't really need to continue, no one's changing their opinion either way. I won't have hostility or threats from either side here
12:48:25 <tony_pixel> mnhebi: Hebi, if you knew what we are referring to you wouldn't say so
12:48:52 <tony_pixel> > another is saying "I made a patchpack" and it's 450 commits full of ai-generated changes
12:48:52 <tony_pixel> it's not a "using llms to summarize a commit message" situation at all
12:48:57 <mnhebi> Per Jakes request I am not continuing this.
12:49:02 <emperorjake> We can let people have their opinions while disagreeing with them, and that should work works both ways
12:49:40 <tony_pixel> I don't transfer the notion of slop to another people's content B just because they used LLM for content A, you lack context
12:50:16 <yiffgirl> tony_pixel: don't feed him mate
12:50:50 <mnhebi> yiffgirl: who is "him", here?
12:50:52 <tony_pixel> No, it's not baiting, it's just I feel like Hebi lacks context about the situation peter and I have in mind
12:50:59 <tony_pixel> yiffgirl: and don't say that
12:51:02 <tony_pixel> we're not all trolls here
12:51:28 <yiffgirl> mnhebi: my bad, sorry
12:51:43 <mnhebi> and I think you lack context if you think I am a troll
12:51:43 <LordAro> some of you respond to email storms and it shows
12:51:50 <mnhebi> I am the founder of the Finnish train set
12:52:00 <mnhebi> that endures still to this day
12:52:23 <mnhebi> I drew hundreds of pixels of wagons by hand for that
12:52:35 <mnhebi> did data gathering etc
12:53:08 <mnhebi> Can't say that name rings any bells
12:53:09 <LordAro> emperorjake: i'm thinking a 1 day suspension for all 3?
12:53:25 <tony_pixel> xd, me catching strays just for replying
12:53:51 <mnhebi> Don't think, don't discuss
12:54:10 <yiffgirl> tridgell was the name
12:54:32 <mnhebi> still not quite sure who..
12:54:41 <peter1138> Discuss but don't attack. I don't think anyone has attacked... yet?
12:55:03 <mnhebi> but apparently just discussion is a bannable offense
12:55:31 <yiffgirl> "just asking questions"
12:55:52 <mnhebi> heh, you misconstrue my aims entirely
12:56:16 <tony_pixel> I would like to ditch this convo, better tell me, has anyone cooked toast with virgin oil on pan?
12:56:21 <tony_pixel> Discord channel #off-topic-2
12:56:44 <emperorjake> Just keep it civil, I don't see a reason to mute anybody at this point
12:56:46 <peter1138> French toast perhaps.
12:57:13 <mnhebi> but it seems my writing style still too overtly aggressive feeling.
13:00:36 <peter1138> Sure, everyone should be used to that. I make a throw-away side comment and get labelled hostile for the rest of eternity.
13:00:49 <will_marshall_> dw peter ily really
13:02:13 <will_marshall_> I have a major league reputation for being That Guy at work where I sometimes stop talking to you until you explain from first principles what the hell you're trying to accomplish.
13:05:42 <mnhebi> well peter, it takes knowing you that you mean no ill
13:07:25 <mnhebi> but your curmudgeonly repute might benefit from sometimes just not commenting on everything you find not fitting your worldview?
13:08:08 <mnhebi> after all, someone of your experience does know how to tell someone to improve themselves
13:08:19 <mnhebi> if you wish to see it happen, that is
13:09:42 <peter1138> There's a reason I left the Discord server for months...
13:09:57 <emperorjake> mnhebi: I thought we were finished, can you please stop stirring up drama or I really will have to mute you
13:10:17 <mnhebi> and here I thought I was just keeping civil discussion with peter
13:10:25 <peter1138> I brought this one up.
13:12:51 <belajalilija> peter1138: Do it more
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13:20:20 <belajalilija> I’ve read everything else
13:20:36 <belajalilija> I didn’t realise I’d walked into *a thing*
13:38:08 <reldred> Honestly I think this channel sometimes needs to be put on slow mode in discord so the IRC residents can be left in peace. I mean at some point if this continues they’ll just kick the bridge bot.
13:39:50 <will_marshall_> Seems unfair to the discord residents, why do we have to put up with idiots?
13:40:01 <will_marshall_> Ban Em All 1999
13:40:39 <peter1138> Well, I'm on both, so...
13:40:46 <peter1138> Also there's a voice chat on right now.
14:04:59 <andythenorth> I had an english breakfast
14:21:34 <talltyler> Second breakfast time for me
14:36:07 <audigex> I don't think he knows about second breakfast, Pip
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16:13:24 <will_marshall_> I'm peckish myself.
16:30:56 <tony_pixel> tony_pixel: fuck off to Discord channel #off-topic-1
16:35:47 <belajalilija> is this the first time vanilla vehicles have been changed?
16:46:40 <rito12_13> belajalilija: Did not expect that from Peter
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17:38:53 <peter1138> I figured if I kept going it'd end up with creeping scope...
18:17:22 <tony_pixel> will_marshall_: by the way, you said you couldn't ever match the amfleet tone? How's that, does the assigned material behave differently under sun?
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19:03:42 <peter1138> Hmm, it's been raining.
19:11:37 <Rubidium> poor bike not being used, poor pub not being visited... ;)
19:14:21 <peter1138> I used it yesterday... to go a pub.
19:33:53 <peter1138> Any mac OS user willing to test #16042?
19:34:58 <peter1138> Seems logical enough to me but can't test it either.
19:55:40 <will_marshall_> tony_pixel: You can get close but deferred rendering pipelines are nothing like real light so it's always going to upset someone.
19:56:07 <tony_pixel> how's mine ones though, I think I got close too on the last iteration
19:56:51 <will_marshall_> I like them yes, but I've never seen any Budd products up close and personal so I don't think I could say if it was right.
19:57:33 <tony_pixel> well, you modeled/observed modeled ones so I'd assume you had some pic references in mind
19:58:05 <will_marshall_> I have seen lots of pictures but that doesn't make me an expert on anything. Shiny is shiny :3
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21:19:43 <andythenorth> or OpenTTD time?
21:20:56 <tony_pixel> I'm going to sleep too
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21:29:57 <andythenorth> FWIW (not much probably), the project is particularly hostile to contribute to via forums, where a bunch of non-contributors rock up on every thread with debate.
21:30:25 <andythenorth> whereas in irc or discord, the format tends towards "do you have some working code or not?"
21:30:51 <reldred> Yeah I don’t much enjoy the forums anymore
21:32:17 <tony_pixel> was this a response to some other discussion?
21:32:29 <tony_pixel> i'm just a bit unsure if FWIF follows from somewhere
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21:41:09 <andythenorth> I got back from the pub, and read back the day
21:41:56 <andythenorth> I made a forum post this morning about why trying to contribute via forums is a waste of time.
21:43:32 <andythenorth> my lack of context may relate to the pub, sorry 😛
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21:54:21 <will_marshall_> andy i like you but you are a bit of an enigma do you know that
21:55:09 <tony_pixel> no no no he got the spirit of Discord channel #openttd-development posts
21:55:26 <tony_pixel> you just need to imagine that irc bot posted that
21:55:32 <tony_pixel> then eveything will make sense
21:55:41 <will_marshall_> you're right i should go to bed
21:57:07 <andythenorth> will_marshall_: you slay me 😛
21:58:22 <will_marshall_> if the opportunity presents itself remind me of this conversation and i'll take you to a pub and you won't pay a penny
21:59:21 <will_marshall_> why does the default discord 💰 look like it has a dude stuffed inside
21:59:30 <andythenorth> crappy emoji set?
21:59:31 <andythenorth> ok it is naptime, and I won't be building a ship route in this pixel train game
21:59:46 <will_marshall_> they'll never make a good emoji set
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22:30:31 <will_marshall_> My feeling is that this has been a no-brainer the whole time. If any other late-game transport methods expire we should address them too.
22:34:31 <reldred> Not sure about OpenTTD but JGRPP has an option to not let any vehicles expire if their expiry date is after X date
22:34:44 <talltyler> DMUs forever or OpenTTD is not an accurate simulation of the UK 😛
22:34:46 <reldred> which then helps with any other newgrf to not implode
22:35:21 <talltyler> OpenTTD calculates that automatically, although if I’m reading the code right it’ll never be earlier than 2050.
22:37:06 <reldred> maybe that calculation just needs to be fixed then, avoids having to then stuff around with editing vehicle data.
22:37:51 <reldred> Or make the date changeable by the player (ach! new settings!), set it to a sensible default, walk away.
22:38:05 <peter1138> The calculation is correct, the last helicopter just exires much earlier.
22:38:57 <will_marshall_> There's a built in "nothing expires after 2050" and no other mode of transport goes obsolete as a result of it's last vehicle expiring before 2050.
22:39:05 <reldred> I mean i guess if its the 'one' outlier
22:39:16 <will_marshall_> Disclaimer: I have not checked.
22:39:42 <will_marshall_> But even if there were other modes (boats?) that expired before then.... those should also be fixed.
22:39:54 <reldred> I mean, I always talk mad shit about wanting futuristic vehicles etc. but never manage to get a game past 1960
22:40:10 <will_marshall_> real but the bug reports speak for themselves.
22:40:22 <will_marshall_> some poor bastards are reaching 2050 and wanting more and they currently are SOL
22:40:58 <peter1138> There is a calculation, the default is 2050 but it will *increase* if it can. So maybe need to check that this doesn't blow everything else out :p
22:41:31 <peter1138> 558 might just be a little too many.
22:42:10 <peter1138> Should probably only list actually compatible fonts.
22:45:09 <peter1138> (It takes account of isocode but not required glyphs)
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22:52:39 <peter1138[d]> That's a lot of styles.
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