IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-07-09
⏴ go to previous day
00:03:38 <peter1138> Elbow's been aching for a while now :(
00:14:25 <talltyler> Heh, who was grumpy and wrote the header comment in `sprites.h`? 😄
00:15:48 <talltyler> I see nobody has updated it in a while, there aren't any enums in the file anymore 🙂
01:09:32 *** michi_cc_ has joined #openttd
01:10:06 *** michi_cc has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
01:58:20 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
02:02:50 *** herms22 has quit IRC (Quit: bye)
02:04:21 *** herms22 has joined #openttd
03:48:52 *** Phileman has joined #openttd
03:52:20 *** Philemon has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
05:01:24 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
05:01:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
05:07:58 *** tokai has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
05:16:56 *** MinchinWeb[m] has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
05:17:12 *** MinchinWeb[m] has joined #openttd
07:01:47 <peter1138> Tram depots are stupidly tall :D
07:59:21 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
08:34:52 *** Flygon has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
08:35:45 <mnhebi> talltyler: I don't use any less of my brain using AI, I review every line. I don't just go to chatgpt and say "make me a voxel renderer". I go with small portions, explicit instructions, and don't just copy paste, I actually go through everything, and amend before using.
08:37:11 <mnhebi> It is just far faster to do performance comparisons etc this way.
08:38:45 <will_marshall_> ~~So what's the point of the AI if you know what you want to write?~~ Nope, too early for this shit.
08:40:05 <mnhebi> Do you hate people who use ctrl+c instead of right click->copy too?
08:40:17 <will_marshall_> I don't hate you.
08:40:35 <mnhebi> I've read thousands of pages of stuff in preparation
08:40:47 <will_marshall_> I think you're weird and I've never in my life met people who show up six hours later to defend their use of a "tool"
08:40:57 <mnhebi> Just greedy meshing was like a month of reading
08:41:50 <will_marshall_> I put my shoes on one velcro at a time just like everybody else.
08:42:38 <mnhebi> Not liking AI slop is fine, but putting everyone under the same label just cause some people think AI can code for you
08:43:35 <will_marshall_> Protecting the project from bad code that the "author" doesn't actually understand seems fair to me, but that's not my battle to fight.
08:43:41 <mnhebi> It is no different from using shortcuts if you got the required experience, and knowledge to actually understand everything
08:44:20 <mnhebi> will_marshall_: I'm talking more in general than OpenTTD specific
08:45:00 <will_marshall_> In general my complaints are different, primarialy that habitual AI users are really annoying.
08:45:08 <will_marshall_> And I guess this is another datapoint on that.
08:45:50 <will_marshall_> Anyway. How about those knicks amiright?
08:53:21 <peter1138> Hmm, no unit test for this bit :(
08:53:58 <peter1138> There's only so much mocking that's useful.
09:00:36 <will_marshall_> My boss says I gotta stop mocking the artists 🙁
09:13:43 <jfkuayue> I guess people in a hurry tend to be more reliant on AI? But openttd is probably not an in-hurry project…
09:30:02 <andythenorth> FWIW parts of the current infra were written with copilot
09:30:11 <andythenorth> and I write grfs with GPT
09:30:29 <andythenorth> this will all seem so funny in 20 years
10:21:58 <mnhebi> jfkuayue: I mean, would you spend a year writing something on paper, even if your hand hurts every time, when you could do it in 3 months on a computer?
10:22:30 <mnhebi> Why spend more time when less is good enough?
10:23:36 <andythenorth> the downside is that using it encourages the grift
10:23:53 <andythenorth> it's such a huge grift too
10:23:57 <mnhebi> I personally just prize having free time, and I do gamedev on top of already challenging role of being site supervisor for 2 sites, up to 16h a day
10:24:29 <mnhebi> And I'm present on both sites, 5 days a week
10:27:21 <mnhebi> Just disassembling this one dos game became a half year project instead of like 3 cause I don't have to spend so much time doing nothing but writing ASM/C side by side
10:30:45 <mnhebi> Just to see oh, this one repeating asm chain was a common DOS command
10:37:23 *** jinks has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
10:44:45 <peter1138> I spent my free time on OpenTTD deliberately, not as a chore.
10:45:14 <peter1138> I also spend free time riding my bike going to no where in particular for several hours.
10:45:55 <will_marshall_> The divide between outcomes-focused and process-focused brains I guess.
10:47:09 <will_marshall_> I want to contribute to OpenTTD to fill in parts of my skillset that are a little underutilized. And because it's fun.
10:47:41 *** jinks has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
10:48:59 <will_marshall_> fwiw I think interpreting a little chunk of source code or binary data is a valuable application of an LLM. I was impressed when I got some LLM to tell me what a sequence of telnet escape codes roughly meant. I think using an LLM to develop new software/existing software is inherently flawed, for reasons that I don't think I can articulate.
10:49:42 <will_marshall_> Outside of implementing very common algorithms, LLM output is inadequate for interoperating with systems other than what it was trained on.
10:49:56 <andythenorth> will_marshall_: I can articulate the reasons
10:49:58 <andythenorth> they're shit at it
10:50:46 <will_marshall_> Well they're shit at it because they can't actually picture or reason about large interconnected systems, and they can't get the details right at the lowest level of implementation because the details of the source code are always going to be more complex than can fit in the context window.
10:51:05 <will_marshall_> So you can't use it for the architecture, and you can't use it for the detailed parts, all you can do is write more layers.
10:51:11 <will_marshall_> Now, not to call you out, Andy, but...
10:51:22 <will_marshall_> You said yourself that horse is many layered abstractions 🙂
10:52:05 <will_marshall_> LLMs can add layers all day but they won't do it with intentionality so you really have to know your stuff to see where the value comes from.
10:52:09 <will_marshall_> Also it's a massive grift and I hate it.
10:52:16 <peter1138> For me the ethical and moral issues far outweigh the benefit of using LLMs for discovery.
10:52:19 <will_marshall_> The entire economy is pumped up on a bed of lies and the music is about to stop.
10:52:43 <andythenorth> simple transfer of wealth from 'everyone' to 'very few people'
10:52:47 <andythenorth> nothing to see here
10:52:58 <will_marshall_> I think a little LLM trained on things other than "the entire internet as it was in july 2024" is fine, but the actual economics of how Anthropic, OpenAI, Google et al operate are so gross.
11:03:57 <LordAro> my earphones are broken :(
11:04:10 <LordAro> and one of the buds has gone missing. i suspect shenanigans
11:05:41 <LordAro> colleagues or office cleaner more likely
11:06:04 <LordAro> tbf, it was nearly broken anyway, possibly just been bashed or whatever
11:42:19 <peter1138> Hmm, possibly ought to have a savegame bump.
11:52:27 <talltyler> Oh, so you can't load the save in an older game version?
12:03:05 <peter1138> talltyler, yeah, we did that for stations, docks and locks, I just didn't think of it here.
12:03:19 <peter1138> I'll push an update later :)
12:54:10 *** toktik has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
13:12:55 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
13:25:32 <peter1138> > Terminated: Exit Code: 137, Exit Message: "Docker container exited with non-zero exit code: 137"
13:25:35 <peter1138> 137 is out of memory, so.
13:26:26 <LordAro> could've been SIGKILL'd by something else :p
13:29:58 <peter1138> Actually yeah, that'll be becuase the healthcheck killed it.
13:48:43 <belajalilija> peter1138: Same but walking
13:50:48 <belajalilija> Ffs my images aren’t sending
13:57:15 <belajalilija> andythenorth: will likely know where i was
14:03:06 <squirejames> I knows where you were tooo
14:04:26 <belajalilija> squirejames: I mean more based on other things xd
14:04:39 <squirejames> 😛 hey, wins a win 😛
14:05:05 <squirejames> I see that our green and pleasant land is looking more and more like the velt of South Africa again too
14:06:37 <belajalilija> Yeah it has been a little dry
14:17:21 <will_marshall_> It's... boulby? Is
14:17:36 <will_marshall_> All big industrial facilities look the same.
14:19:02 <will_marshall_> Okay phew my memory isn't that bad.
14:23:04 <andythenorth> belajalilija: Is it the Filey-Flamborough coast?
14:23:59 <belajalilija> will_marshall_: Yes))
14:24:56 <will_marshall_> I have been there but only to skulk around and look over the fence at trains.
14:25:36 <belajalilija> I imagine you only really saw class 66 or maybe that one with boxy headlights
14:29:01 <squirejames> I don't know how the anoraks do it these days
14:29:01 <squirejames> "Oh look its....another Class 66....and ooh...another DMU"
14:33:01 <will_marshall_> belajalilija: I was with my dad, he was there looking for specific wagons because he got bored of seeing all the locomotives after the 2nd time having seen everything.
14:34:50 <LordAro> belajalilija: i thought i recognised Borrowby, but your saying that andy will know where you are threw me
14:35:00 <LordAro> should've known that there's nowhere in the south-west with the -by suffix
14:35:29 <andythenorth> I have never been to Boulby
14:36:04 <jfkuayue> will_marshall_: tbh there are people in the GRF development team I am in probably thinking making newgrf is a task and even competition... and some of them are thinking about using AI to code. I even dont have the courage to prevent that since I hardly ever do things these days.
14:37:25 <LordAro> let me get my heatmap up... I've definitely been to Staithes, not sure about Borrowby specifically
14:38:29 <LordAro> oh no, I'm thinking of Sleights
14:39:27 <will_marshall_> jfkuayue: the "i like making arts for people :3" to "uh yeah sorry you haven't done enough pixels for one week we're putting you on a performance improvement plan" spectrum
14:42:28 <jfkuayue> How should I explain "no AI in project development" to them, given people live in a radically different social environment in regards of tech worship, is a problem for me
14:44:22 <jfkuayue> People just didn't know LLM is actually popularly disputed and frowned upon outside of their group
14:45:08 <will_marshall_> I think they know that it's unpopular but a lot of people have an impulse to rebel against that and use things becuase they're unpopular.
14:45:25 <will_marshall_> Rather than engage with why it's unpopular.
14:47:05 <jfkuayue> There are extractions of message history:
14:47:05 <jfkuayue> - "i didnt know (=today i learned) refusing AI is an actual thing in the west"
14:47:05 <jfkuayue> - "personal AI usage is nothing compared to big companies"
14:47:05 <jfkuayue> - "also, nobody cared about famine and water shortage even before data centres"
14:49:13 <jfkuayue> There were also players using AI to make "enhancements" to openttd screenshots and thought those were beautiful.
14:51:35 <jfkuayue> People think this is good...
15:04:26 <rito12_13> It is Hutava from Belarus by AI and moof
15:04:28 <belajalilija> andythenorth: Yeah but you spend ages staring at industries to make FIRS xd
15:06:17 <belajalilija> LordAro: I used to get them mixed up
15:06:17 <belajalilija> Both are lovely places tho
15:17:41 <LordAro> i haven't done a huge amount north of Whitby
15:17:49 <LordAro> though I have done much of North Yorkshire as a whole
15:19:48 <will_marshall_> ETS2 eat your heart out.
15:20:15 <will_marshall_> I should get an export of my google location history over the last 8 years, I bet it's depressing as hell.
15:27:30 <belajalilija> LordAro: You’ve been to my town by the looks of it xd
15:35:18 <belajalilija> It’s missing stuff in denmark and Sweden
16:15:53 <jfkuayue> I havent ypdated my trainlog for 2 months...
16:18:27 <jfkuayue> Clearly it is too hot: Timtam is melting.
16:36:47 <_glx_> of course it's too hot, and nights are again going to be above 20°C
16:37:13 <_glx_> it's the 3rd time since may
16:42:04 <peter1138> I should perhaps be going out cycling now but.
16:57:38 <peter1138> Might go later, it is 35°C at the moment.
16:58:27 <peter1138> It'll be a mere 21°C at 3am.
17:20:25 <emperorjake> It's 3am here and 4°C
17:20:39 <emperorjake> I should sleep lol
17:30:12 <peter1138> Bridges over bridges? :o
17:39:43 <peter1138> Better play OpenLoco?
17:57:08 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC (Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.)
18:04:56 <rito12_13> Why did the string workflow fail? I have EnforceDeityMode in that function
18:07:28 <rito12_13> > Line does not start with a tab
19:01:19 <andythenorth> Might have ruptured achilles
19:03:46 <will_marshall_> That is extremely rough. Painful?
19:05:27 <andythenorth> Not particularly yet
19:06:12 <andythenorth> Not being brave, but compared to passimg kidney clots through the wee, it’s negligible
19:06:41 <will_marshall_> "compared to the most painful thing I could describe, it's fine"
19:08:16 <andythenorth> Would fall over if I tried to walk on it
19:45:16 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
19:45:26 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
20:02:08 <LordAro> how did that get missed?
20:05:42 <andythenorth> Been sent home from A&E got to go back tomorrow
20:05:57 <andythenorth> TBF others looked worse off
20:17:56 <will_marshall_> Any of the classics?
20:18:02 <will_marshall_> Child with saucepan stuck on head?
20:38:51 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
20:38:52 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
20:39:05 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:39:05 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
20:39:12 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
20:40:34 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
20:54:19 <squirejames> will_marshall_: Person with a ketchup bottle that they "slipped, fell and accidentally landed on with their anus"
21:07:02 <andythenorth> Lot of older people looking like they had heat stroke, and some things that looked nastily broken
21:14:35 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC (Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.)
21:23:21 <squirejames> No bloaty head syndrome, slack tongue, king syndrome? 😛
21:28:57 *** peter1138[d] has joined #openttd
21:28:57 <peter1138[d]> I'm sensing a... Theme
21:30:53 <squirejames> I can't sit in a hospital waiting room without the soundtrack to that game playing in my head
21:32:49 <will_marshall_> Patients are requested not to die in the corridors.
continue to next day ⏵
