IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2026-01-08
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00:06:25 <xarick> percentage based graph
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03:54:37 <wensimehrp> TallTylerviaGitHub: GRF sounds confusing
03:55:09 <wensimehrp> Every other game has "mod"
03:59:17 <reldred> eh, not really, all games have their nuance to modding
04:00:05 <reldred> bethsoft games have esp, esl's, esm's. Each has their implications much the same as newgrf has implications seperately from game scripts, AI's, etc.
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04:48:39 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
05:38:22 <andythenorth> Mod would have been better if starting from scratch. Unless DLC would be better. Or pack. Or addon. Or expansion.
05:38:55 <andythenorth> As we’re 20 years in….grf is fine
05:40:12 <reldred> Modding was a common term back 20yrs ago when this all kicked off but yeah
05:41:56 <reldred> like in a bethsoft game it could refer to engine level hacks like writing new Script Extender plugins, it could refer to using creation kit to write the native format ESP/ESL's, it could refer to just straight up texture/mesh overrides which can be unarchived raw files placed in the correct place with some INI file edits.
05:42:02 <reldred> but it's all still 'modding'
05:42:32 <reldred> just teh same as writing squirrel, nfo or nml or even to a certain extent writing C++ patches for the game all fall under the umbrella of modding.
06:02:31 <andythenorth> “We should delete it all and switch to paid DLC”
06:04:27 <reldred> Shush, absolutely not
06:09:49 <rito12_51026> You can start from FIRS, can't you?
06:21:07 <mnhebi> andythenorth: Mod covers anything from slight tinkering to total conversion..so eh
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07:38:27 <kuhnovic> Unleash the pitchforks
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08:23:27 <peter1138> Pom-te-pom, #10623?
08:27:10 * peter1138 notes that Wentbourne has 5,499 road vehicles in one company.
08:28:37 <LordAro> ...articulated vehicles?
08:39:51 <LordAro> most active people have been in weeks
08:41:18 <peter1138> Happens after a release? Maybe.
08:42:06 <peter1138> 8 backport requested PRs.
08:42:56 <LordAro> i meant this PR specifically :p
09:05:04 <peter1138> I think I had a patch for that once.
09:05:27 <peter1138> Allow adding/removing road/track if it doesn't directly impact vehicles using the tile.
09:08:26 <peter1138> And closed only last week :o
09:08:35 <LordAro> i spotted it in the list
09:09:13 <LordAro> and i never understood it, and i certainly don't now
09:33:34 <peter1138> Is it allowed to mention the R-word yet?
09:44:42 <ahyangyi> Thankfully I added the trademark symbol
09:46:22 <ahyangyi> If not enough I'll use the good old /s next time 😐
09:47:04 <peter1138> Oh I have to be careful with unicode else the server might ban me again.
10:26:19 <xarick> let me test the theory
10:32:14 <xarick> erm pretty sure fullscreen is not supposed to look like this
10:34:19 <xarick> i change to 1920x1080 and it keeps on 832x624
10:34:42 <xarick> on a small square on the top left with the rest of background showing up
10:54:18 <xarick> i don't know if there's a memory leak: seems normal
10:54:50 <xarick> main menu mem usage started at 260'ish, it's now at 320 after 15 minutes
10:55:46 <LordAro> xarick: that does feel mildly leaky
11:01:18 <_zephyris> Dynamic sprite loading as different bits of the map are shown?
11:03:33 <LordAro> not by that much, surely
11:03:41 <LordAro> (assuming 260->320MB)
11:07:51 <xarick> 326 MB after 30 minutes
11:16:41 <peter1138> Hmm, "Open" "Close" or "Lock" "Unlock" icons?
11:22:54 <xarick> 332 MB after 45 minutes
11:28:52 <xarick> openttd really has a hard time to switch between fullscreen / windowed mode
11:29:19 <peter1138> Works for me on Linux.
11:29:20 <_glx_> Report doesn't give any useful info
11:29:57 <_glx_> Full screen on windows is the one from win95 time
11:30:24 <_glx_> ie real full screen, with change of the screen resolution itself
11:33:46 <peter1138> Yeah, should be easy there, but I don't know about Windows.
11:36:30 <_zephyris> FWIW full screen on windows works fine for me
11:36:47 <LordAro> xarick has some sort of whacky HDR set up, i can see that affecting things
11:37:08 <_zephyris> Hmm, turns out on this laptop it goes full screen then lags like crazy and flickers to black and back
11:38:24 <_glx_> Unsupported resolution?
11:38:56 <_zephyris> laggy and black flickers w/hardware accel, just laggy without
11:38:56 <_glx_> LCD are less forgiving than cathodic
11:39:51 <_glx_> They hate to be outside of native
11:40:13 <_zephyris> Yup, seems to be it. It's a very high res screen for an otherwise meh computer.
11:40:32 <_zephyris> Some awkward and slow scaling happening somewhere
11:40:55 <_zephyris> + intel xe graphics
11:41:00 <LordAro> ORCT2 does have a borderless mode, but it just uses SDL everywhere so can't copy from that
11:43:29 <peter1138> Let's just use SDL everywhere, along with FontConfig/FreeType
11:43:43 <LordAro> didn't we used to do that? :P
11:45:05 <LordAro> win32 appears to be just a case of creating the window with the right properties and setting the size correctly
12:19:11 <kuhnovic> "It doesn't do what I want so it's a bug"
12:27:28 <locosage> oh, there is a 15.0 server that's been running for 100 days according to the server list 😅
12:30:55 <locosage> it's also laggy as hell somehow
12:59:44 <talltyler> Where does the 5,000 vehicle per company limit come from? Pool/ID limit with 16 companies, or some performance goal?
13:01:17 <_glx_> Anyway huge map means trains, not a insane amount of RVs
13:02:24 <LordAro> (and a train actually being vehicle-per-wagon)
13:03:00 <kaji_kaede> _glx_: Wouldn't it mean both?
13:03:18 <kaji_kaede> Nearby industries have lots of RVs, as well as towns?
13:04:01 <kaji_kaede> I know I tend to have buses/trams inside a larger town/city that then feed in to the nearby stations.
13:05:23 <_glx_> Issue description is about lines between towns, you need a lot of RVs to transport everything
13:06:24 <LordAro> i can see a response of "we have to account for 16 companies, as well as trains of somewhat-arbitrary length" not going over well with someone playing a single-player road-veh-only map
13:07:24 <kaji_kaede> the petty part of me does want to say 'why should we bother accounting for doing something that isn't fun'
13:09:49 <LordAro> kaji_kaede: the better way of saying that is "we have to account for all play styles" :p
13:09:51 <locosage> tbf with 16 companies 5000 vehicles is already way beyond reasonable
13:10:01 <LordAro> xarick knows this well :D
13:10:08 <locosage> though I thought that limit was per game not company, was that changed?
13:10:21 <kaji_kaede> LordAro: Aye, that's what my logical part already knows.
13:15:21 <xarick> my attempts at maxing vehicles results in a slugfest
13:17:40 <xarick> also I'm unsure if there's enough stationid's to accomodate everything
13:17:51 <xarick> forgot details but I tried
13:23:24 <xarick> bananas AIs should really just not exist :/
13:31:24 <talltyler> A reasonable resolution might be to change the setting to maximum vehicles per type for the entire game, then automatically calculate the per-company limit based on the number of companies.
13:31:56 <talltyler> Companies which join sooner would have a higher vehicle cap, but what are the odds they'd actually hit it before the game fills up with other players?
13:42:11 <LordAro> talltyler: i can see that being an easy abuse vector
13:45:34 <peter1138> What issue is being solved here by making things more complicated?
13:46:24 <peter1138> We already let players configure AIs to use up all resources.
13:50:27 <ahyangyi> LordAro: True but also all HDR set up on Windows are whacky
13:54:50 <Rubidium> talltyler: nah, companies that join earlier shouldn't get a higher cap. Only allow max(current_vehicles_per_company) / game_vehicle_limit companies. So if you set the limit to say 1000, and one has 300 then only 3 companies may be built.
13:55:57 <locosage> usually there are few companies with lots of stuff and many empty ones, dividing limit equally is pretty useless
13:58:20 <peter1138> The limit of 5000 was set in 2005.
13:59:01 <talltyler> "nobody will ever need more than 5000" maybe 😛
13:59:11 <locosage> it's still quite reasonable
13:59:13 <peter1138> Just a reasonable guess at the time.
13:59:19 <peter1138> And still quite reasonable now, yes.
13:59:56 <peter1138> And increasing the upper limit of the limit doesn't harm anything, except for those players who think everything should be maxed out.
14:00:32 <peter1138> You can have only 64000 order lists though :)
14:00:34 <talltyler> We're giving players a footgun, but it's not like they don't already have several
14:00:53 <peter1138> Depends, are we doing it, based on one "bug" report? :)
14:01:04 <talltyler> 4k by 4k maps probably being the biggest existing footgun 😛
14:01:28 <talltyler> This might be our opportunity to finally goes it remove limitation!
14:01:35 <peter1138> That and adding the entire map of TileIndex to a script_list :)
14:01:44 <mmtunligit> I mean what was the original max map size, 512x512?
14:01:50 <peter1138> I bet andythenorth is getting close to the sprite limit again.
14:02:05 <peter1138> mmtunligit, the original map size was 256x256. There was no min or max.
14:02:18 <locosage> it's already kind of a footgut, 5000 vehicles is reasonable in total, not per company
14:04:30 <mmtunligit> Ok so if original vehicle limit was 240, then to scale that up to a 4k map, technically the limit should be 61,440
14:05:37 <peter1138> Scaling up by anything by map area was actually a bad idea.
14:06:20 <mmtunligit> Which fits nicely in a uint16 but idk how the limitations in that area actually work
14:06:32 <talltyler> I suspect most players reduce density of towns/industries/transport infrastructure as maps get larger
14:22:33 <_zephyris> I vote give players footgun
14:23:51 <_jgr_> Performance degradation with more vehicles is fairly gradual, it's not like some cliff edge where things hit a wall
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14:27:11 <_jgr_> With the recent road vehicle path cache they're also noticably cheaper than they used to be
14:32:28 <xarick> i found trains collision check to be the biggest offender
14:32:47 <xarick> when there's 500k engine/wagons in the world
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14:33:54 <xarick> let me find screenshots
14:35:01 <_zephyris> I believe that's already known
14:42:21 <Timberwolf> Quite impressed with what you can get away with these days.
14:42:41 <xarick> i found some screenshots but without context i can't really point out what's exactly going on
14:43:23 <Timberwolf> Our Christmas group-of-friends game ended up as 1,447 trains, 2,195 road vehicles, 147 ships and 122 aircraft across 7 players and that's still only running about 9ms/tick (admittedly on fairly fast CPUs)
14:43:38 <andythenorth> peter1138: whatever it was, I didn't do it
14:47:05 <xarick> i have a "74k trains" AAAHogEx save
14:48:50 <xarick> yep, found it, it's this
14:51:55 <xarick> train ticks is the focus
14:53:01 <xarick> just screenshoted for 15.0
14:53:57 <LordAro> though i grant you better than 7.2s/tick
14:54:00 <_zephyris> Looks like nothing to do with RV collisions, right? Because that's checked in RV processing?
14:55:38 <xarick> ah, I remember something about vehicle tile hash
14:55:45 <xarick> would improve the ticks
14:56:24 <xarick> trains look for collisions vs other trains too
14:58:44 <xarick> ah yeah, just trains here
15:03:07 <xarick> let me load this on jgrpp
15:30:31 <Borg> anyway.. I found best setting I think for jgr rr penalty
15:30:39 <Borg> look_ahead_signals_p0 * 2 as initial
15:30:48 <Borg> and then + p0 each iter (up to 3? 5?)
15:41:26 <LordAro> 10x speed up would be worth pursuing, even if it is only so noticable on extreme saves
15:42:33 <_zephyris> Beyond my ability really 😉
15:42:55 <_jgr_> I suspect that most of that is because I charge script opcodes for various things which are "free" in vanilla, so the AIs are effectively running slower
15:43:33 <LordAro> i'd be in favour of that
15:43:33 <_zephyris> Ah, someone who knows more than me 🙂
15:43:51 <LordAro> most scripts don't exactly do anything except play "as fast as possible" anyway
15:44:02 <LordAro> which doesn't generally make for "nice" competition
15:45:38 <Borg> hmm. okey.. I do sth like this in most of my script
15:45:47 <Borg> and then every 64 ticks I do tasks
15:45:55 <Borg> more expensive tasks I do every N*64
15:46:34 <Borg> very expensive tasks.. I spread over multiple runs using GSList() to either sort or rotate
15:46:47 <LordAro> idk, it's pretty subjective
15:48:26 <LordAro> and like i say... most don't make any attempt to split anything up
15:48:34 <LordAro> (nor should they have to, imo)
15:55:42 <Borg> probably premature optimization from my side [;
15:56:44 <LordAro> unless you're in the habit of playing 4k maps with thousands of vehicles
15:58:28 <Borg> nope. I play small maps.. <200 vehicles..
15:58:39 <Borg> anything large become unmanagable
15:58:43 <Borg> too much stuff changing around
15:58:59 <Borg> I mean <200 trains.. I ocassionaly have 50-75 trucks..
15:59:05 <Borg> but I try to avoid those
15:59:57 <Borg> I must admit that recent introduction of slower time (x2) was great idea..
16:00:21 <Borg> now came is much more calm.. enough time to watch/adjust rails.. and new build outs
16:08:30 <Borg> and this is my new priority merge [;
16:25:07 <xarick> In December 2025, only 3,862 questions were asked on Stack Overflow.
17:04:47 <ahyangyi> As someone who often felt the urge to answer to a 10 year old question because I find all existing answers outdated, only to be downvoted without explanation
17:05:35 <ahyangyi> I'm having very mixed feeling towards Stackoverflow's downfall
17:05:59 <ahyangyi> In general, it's a site that really hates new questions
17:06:11 <ahyangyi> so I guess fewer questions make everyone happier.
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17:42:53 <rito12_51026> How hard would it be to allow badges to show different sprite when multiple badges from the same class are added to one vehicle?
17:44:01 <brickblock19280> could be a callback on the class
17:47:03 <andythenorth> it would need to be a in the badge act3-2-1 chain
17:47:11 <andythenorth> using a varact2 var that does not currently exist
17:47:22 <andythenorth> which reads the other badges preset on the entity
17:47:34 <andythenorth> but that var can't exist, because that's a nonsense scope
17:48:43 <andythenorth> (the scope could be anywhere that the badge gets rendered, which I think is nonsense, but peter might explain why I'm wrong, again)
17:49:07 <andythenorth> why so many typos in what I write 😐
17:50:08 <andythenorth> what would that do to the semantics of filtering?
17:50:14 <andythenorth> I can't make sense of it
17:53:55 <rito12_51026> andythenorth: Allow to select multiple badges in one class, maybe with use of ctrl?
17:54:35 <brickblock19280> that's usefull either way
17:55:16 <brickblock19280> for filtering I would still add the separate badges in the same class if doing AC/DC locos
17:56:06 <andythenorth> what would the predicate be for ctrl? AND?
17:57:38 <andythenorth> dunno, how many grfs have implemented badges so far? 🙂
17:59:35 <rito12_51026> Shift could be utilized for OR, but using both AND and OR would be hard, because of where would you put brackets?
18:01:43 <Wolf01> Hmmm... topic is a bit outdated (also happy new year)
18:04:22 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Error: You don't have permissions to perform this action.
18:04:53 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "15.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (source: github, translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only"
18:09:05 <LordAro> or rather, templates calling explicit functions. it was matching const char * to uint64_t
18:09:12 <LordAro> and not, as i'd hoped, std::string
18:10:16 <LordAro> or possibly bool, actually, as i was getting "1" rather than the string i was expecting
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18:59:52 <Rubidium> got to love all implicit conversions in C++
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20:26:03 <talltyler> Om nom, tasty actions
20:42:12 <talltyler> Thanks for all the reviews rubidium ❤️
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21:46:10 <Rubidium> maybe merge some more of the approved ones and then 16.0-RC1? :D
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22:02:39 <talltyler> Rebasing is hard apparently
22:05:21 <talltyler> If anyone can solve enum classes in .ini files I'm happy to make PRs to convert enums to enum classes 🙂
22:09:00 <peter1138> What's the problem with enum classes and ini files?
22:09:37 <LordAro> peter1138: the ini stuff doesn't like that enum classes aren't ints
22:09:43 <LordAro> min/max/default don't work well
22:10:11 <andythenorth> should we make the menus work like macOS? (maybe other OS, don't know)
22:10:23 <andythenorth> both behaviours are supported, no toggle
22:10:49 <peter1138> What are you talking about?
22:11:01 <_zephyris> I think they already do
22:12:12 <_zephyris> Click to open menu, click to select item. Or, click and hold to open menu, release to select item.
22:12:17 <_zephyris> That's what you mean, right?
22:12:57 <andythenorth> ok so these folks complaining about the new did exactly the same as me
22:12:59 <peter1138> You can't have it so that click-releasing on a menu activates the first item and also shows the menu at the same time.
22:13:07 <andythenorth> and assumed the old behaviour was gone
22:13:19 <andythenorth> I didn't try it because I like the new behaviour
22:13:39 <cu-kai> a single, quick click on macOS opens the menu, but if you click-hold-move down the list, it activates on release.
22:13:55 <andythenorth> so another answer to 15063 is "it's not more clicks"
22:14:08 <cu-kai> if openttd's UI behaved like this, you'd lose the ability to single-click open the first item, as peter1138 identified.
22:14:24 <andythenorth> have you tried it?
22:14:30 <andythenorth> or did you just make the same assumption as me 🙂
22:14:37 <_zephyris> Current (new) behaviour is that both works.
22:14:45 <andythenorth> literally the new one works identically to macOS
22:14:50 <andythenorth> and presumably every other modern OS
22:15:07 <_zephyris> The only corner case is when there's a single item in the dropdown menu.
22:15:11 <andythenorth> ok another "15 is terrible" gripe to get in the sea
22:15:18 <cu-kai> andythenorth: i own a mac, admittedly it's an old one
22:15:26 <cu-kai> (assuming you were talking to me)
22:15:30 <andythenorth> the single item is still 1 click, which is what 15063 is about
22:15:36 <peter1138> I believe a menu with a single item in it on MacOS will not automatically just to the first item.
22:15:57 <peter1138> Which is what the most recent issue reporter is asking for.
22:16:59 <cu-kai> mac behaviour is the same as openttd's behaviour in 15063
22:19:58 <tabytac> The only behaviour ive noticed on "modern" dropdown menus is when you click one dropdown and then hover your mouse over other dropdowns, they open up instead.
22:19:58 <tabytac> But I dont think this works for OpenTTD like it does in standard desktop apps
22:22:54 <peter1138> LordAro, 15.1 first? ;)
22:25:12 <LordAro> peter1138: that's what backports are for!
22:28:24 <michi_cc[d]> LordAro: I've found three somewhat useful solutions to the "enum class in settings" problem:
22:28:35 <michi_cc[d]> 1) Just stick `to_underlying(TestEnum::Entry1)` into the ini file
22:29:35 <michi_cc[d]> 2) A reasonable overload for the IntSettingDesc constructor, but that alone needs also defining a SDT_VAR_ENUM (or whatever) to cope with the validation static_assert.
22:29:57 <michi_cc[d]> 3) A helper function *should* be able to deal with the static_assert too, trying that right now.
22:30:29 <LordAro> i tried adjusting the concept (i think 3?), but couldn't get it to work
22:31:22 <michi_cc[d]> LordAro: The concept is easy, but you need to copy is_scoped_enum_v from C++23.
22:31:41 <LordAro> yeah, i did that, it was still unhappy
22:31:59 <LordAro> gave up before working out what i was doing wrong :)
22:32:12 <michi_cc[d]> Well, let me check the static_assert thing and then I might make a PR.
22:45:01 <michi_cc[d]> Okay, got something MSVC is happy with. Let's prepare a PR to check all the other compilers 🙂
22:52:39 <peter1138> I did consider changing the button colour depending on button or dropdown, but... pitchforks :)
22:53:01 <LordAro> might be worth mocking up
22:53:13 <LordAro> but probably too many pitchforks
22:53:15 <peter1138> Probably in my stashes :p
22:53:26 <andythenorth> I like the menu 😛
22:54:25 <andythenorth> from what I've seen most applications don't ship single-item menubar menus
22:54:56 <andythenorth> but if we consolidate menus...more pitchforks
22:56:13 <andythenorth> I do think we should update the project goals though
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22:56:17 <andythenorth> "change for the sake of change"
22:56:24 <andythenorth> and "meddling, to learn things"
22:56:27 <LordAro> "change because andy told us to"
22:56:44 <andythenorth> it's rarely me on these UI things :p
22:56:47 <andythenorth> too close to real work
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22:57:22 <andythenorth> I think we've passed peak outrage on the new start menu
23:07:31 <tabytac> never heard "brownfield" being used in a software dev setting but it defo applies well to openttd 🤣
23:18:54 <michi_cc[d]> Okay, let's see what gcc/clang/apple think...
23:19:28 <michi_cc[d]> talltyler: If the PR survives the CI checks, your enum classes are there 🙂
23:25:43 <michi_cc[d]> Hmm, I should have pushed my test change, too. Would help a bit with the CI check 🤣
23:35:31 <peter1138> Hmm, computer crashed :/
23:40:08 <michi_cc[d]> Okay, got an ever better idea for #15065
23:42:35 <peter1138> Hmm, well, nearly all buttons have a menu, so.
23:42:54 <peter1138> > No description provided.
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23:48:50 <danp142> LordAro: I dont know thats why im asking?
23:49:13 <LordAro> and i'm asking you to apply a little bit of critical thinking and self reflection
23:50:51 <_glx_> it's at least missing a proper description, and it does many unrelated things
23:52:57 <danp142> to be honest I was expecting a review or something, yeah fair enough its missing a description
23:53:09 <danp142> what sort of unrelated things?
23:53:39 <LordAro> if you can't tell, why should we spend our time reviewing?
23:53:42 <peter1138> Look at your diff to see.
23:55:12 <danp142> LordAro: ahh just fuck off not a fan of your attitude, yeah Im not a very good programmer but I was only trying to add something for others
23:56:26 <talltyler> Vibe coding strikes again?
23:56:50 <mmtunligit> at least that sort of behavior re: 15.0 changes is generally quarantined to the channels the IRC folks cant see lol
23:56:52 <LordAro> I trust I will be told by someone if I'm overly harsh on the newbies
23:57:09 <mmtunligit> i think you handled that reasonably
23:57:22 <reldred> danp142: So you just yolo open a PR with no description no nothing, completely ignore the PR template that is pre populated listing all the shit you need to cover but you don’t like other people’s attitudes?
23:57:56 <reldred> It’s not even a coding ability issue at that stage
23:58:14 <reldred> LordAro: Honestly seemed appropriate
23:58:16 <mmtunligit> you were very patient with me when i was first setting stuff up when you absolutely didnt have to help out with baby's first coding project problems
23:58:58 <talltyler> I’m just confused why so many random files were touched. Why is a video driver PR changing pathfinder settings??
23:59:23 <_glx_> plus the emply line removals
23:59:47 <talltyler> That could be an IDE trying to be smart
continue to next day ⏵
