IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-11-18
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00:05:47 <reldred> swamps swamps swamps swamps
00:06:14 <peter1138> "River Terminus" is a ... weird phrase.
00:06:54 <reldred> this river terminates at Seningbury swamp.
00:07:03 <reldred> please depart your canoe
00:07:06 <kaji_kaede> Well, what else do you think they would call where the fish stop?
00:08:21 <reldred> where the fish stop and the frogs start
00:17:05 <reldred> make package spat out a deb file, how do I get make to spit out just a tarball/xz of a compiled openttd?
00:17:30 <reldred> do i need to set an option/env var before calling cmake?
00:27:45 <jfkuayue> PeterNviaGitHub: The best pr in some way…
00:59:41 <peter1138> reldred, `cpack -G TXZ`
01:00:42 <peter1138> Hmm, not sure on the layout though.
01:01:07 <reldred> nice, I'll give that a shot
01:01:37 <reldred> I've tried setting an env var before calling make package and forgot I cleaned the folder and so now I'm compiling in a single goddamn thread
01:01:46 <peter1138> I think it'll still be a deb layout, just not a .debn
01:02:12 <reldred> Yeah that's fine probably
01:14:16 <peter1138> Bleh, and then you get maps which don't generate any rivers even.
01:30:25 <reldred> There's a pair of conditions for determining a river start point that I've wrapped in a condition in jgrpp to disable one of them, I find it dramatically improves river spawning odds
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04:40:01 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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06:03:25 <rito12_51026> peter1138: I've remembered the other reason why I went for the templates and not overriding.
06:03:34 <rito12_51026> In order to define member functions of the child classes outside the dropdown.cpp I would have to move the declaration of DropDownWindow into the header file, and then to match the codding style remove tab from each line of definition. It is not the time that I'm concerned about because I can sellect whole text and press shift tab but the mess in git blame.
06:07:00 <rito12_51026> Although I've already added more lines to the dropdown.cpp than the window uses it self, so it probably does not matter anymore.
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10:35:38 <andythenorth> hmm I maybe don't understand the grf spec
10:36:05 <andythenorth> I need to reserve railtypes, but only if they're available to be reserved
10:36:12 <andythenorth> and load-order independent
10:36:28 <andythenorth> afaict, we can't repeatedly cycle reservation steps
10:36:46 <andythenorth> so there's no way to make my grf 'reserve last'
10:36:55 <kaji_kaede> andythenorth: ~~nobody does~~
10:37:05 <andythenorth> several people do
10:37:13 <andythenorth> possibly as many as 7
10:38:32 <peter1138> Basically rail types don't have a separate reservation step.
10:39:03 <peter1138> I'm not sure this is actually necessary any more.
10:39:27 <peter1138> It used to be so that rail types were available so that vehicles can use them, regardless of load order.
10:40:07 <andythenorth> I'm trying to win a stupid meta game
10:40:07 <peter1138> But railtype resolution is now done after everything is loaded.
10:40:31 <andythenorth> where my railtypes only initialise/activate if they're not provided by another grf via railtype prop 0x1D
10:40:43 <andythenorth> or as an actual railtype (this part works)
10:40:46 <peter1138> Yes, that's possible if the other GRF is loaded first.
10:40:53 <andythenorth> yeah it's load order dependent
10:41:02 <peter1138> If that's the only problem, then you cannot do anything about it.
10:41:06 <andythenorth> currently the best solution looks to be detecting specific grfids
10:41:19 <andythenorth> and then throwing a load order error or warning
10:41:30 <peter1138> I still recommend moving your custom railtypes into their own Iron
10:41:36 <peter1138> Iron Horse Railtypes GRF.
10:41:41 <andythenorth> I can write a script to scrape the railtype grfids from bananas
10:42:55 <andythenorth> I considered splitting the railtypes back out of Horse, but I can't process that as an idea
10:43:11 <peter1138> What you could do is, in the description of your NewGRF (currently blank) add a note that this NewGRF adds railtypes, and users can adjust settings to disable them if wanted.
10:43:12 <andythenorth> it's an odd way to placate 0.7% of players who need 63 railtypes in their game
10:43:38 <andythenorth> * a separate grf (Termite)
10:43:38 <andythenorth> * a parameter to disable the builtin railtypes
10:43:41 <peter1138> Players users JP+ Tracks should be able to work out that they need to disable railtypes in Iron Horse.
10:43:43 <andythenorth> neither of those went very well
10:44:06 <andythenorth> I just want to win 😛
10:44:16 <andythenorth> detecting the grfid might be the best way
10:44:36 <peter1138> Why do you always have to overthink it?
10:44:43 <andythenorth> it's the way I'm made
10:44:51 <peter1138> Just tell players there are railtypes, and that they can be disabled if they conflict.
10:45:10 <peter1138> FIRS has a description. Iron Horse doesn't. So you know how to add one.
10:45:10 <kaji_kaede> Not a lot of easy ways to tell players that.
10:45:22 <andythenorth> if I detect JP+ I can show one of those nice little triangle warning icons in grf window
10:46:01 <andythenorth> JP+ already has one
10:46:26 <andythenorth> yeah I wonder why there's no description also
10:47:52 <andythenorth> ok so add a description to Horse, add a little warning triangle if JP+ tracks is found
10:48:00 <kaji_kaede> "it's trains, innit?"
10:48:03 <talltyler> The problem with termite was that it didn’t say anywhere that it was for Iron Horse. Naming it “Iron Horse Extra Railtypes” as Peter suggests would improve that, I suspect
10:48:47 <talltyler> (Saying this as someone who did know better and loaded termite alongside Horse until you merged the railtypes into Horse)
10:49:07 <andythenorth> yeah I don't believe in railtypes 🙂
10:49:36 <andythenorth> I've already accepted I'm not normal about that 🙂
10:50:07 <andythenorth> I can't understand the idea of making a vehicle set without providing the tracks or roads, to placate a very small number of players 🙂
10:50:38 <kaji_kaede> How small relative to the number of people who use Iron Horse in the first place?
10:50:44 <peter1138> Why bother trying to placate a very small number of players?
10:51:16 <andythenorth> does that modem picture trigger the sound in your head?
10:51:25 <peter1138> Don't make extra work for yourself by adding other-NewGRF detection.
10:51:47 <peter1138> Eh, not exactly trigger.
10:52:46 <andythenorth> I don't have synesthesia, but now my ears are full of modem noise 😛
10:53:42 <talltyler> Although now I mostly use Swedish Rails (which is ancient) because I like the ballast colour difference of normal/electric rails, and Horse rails don’t have pretty level crossing sprites for multi-track lines 🙂
10:56:29 <andythenorth> Swedish Horse rails
10:56:44 <andythenorth> I don't know if that's Swedish NG or not
10:57:05 <andythenorth> it's not, Swedish rails doesn't include NG maybe
10:57:20 <kaji_kaede> andythenorth: hjorse
10:58:32 <kaji_kaede> They do actually look quite pretty, will admit.
11:00:21 <andythenorth> "Shootemup Construction Kit"
11:00:27 <andythenorth> railtype configuration builder 😛
11:00:31 <peter1138> LOL, still trying...
11:00:55 <peter1138> andythenorth, remember the plethora of "3D Construction Kit" type games in the 90s?
11:01:18 <andythenorth> all this spec stuff, but what players really want is to set the ballast colour
11:01:38 <peter1138> Yes. But is ballast a ground type?
11:03:16 <andythenorth> do we have any other features where grf defines appearance, but not behaviour?
11:03:18 <andythenorth> I can't think of any
11:03:43 <andythenorth> we should get one of those
11:03:57 <peter1138> I am absolutely sure I had some copy of that software.
11:05:33 <andythenorth> in-game railtype builder
11:05:50 <andythenorth> don't all those snowrunner type games have vehicle options garage things?
11:05:52 <andythenorth> change the tyres
11:11:09 <andythenorth> wetland construction kit?
11:12:30 <kaji_kaede> andythenorth: Yeah, the garages are used for moving vehicles to different regions and installing upgrades.
11:13:06 <kaji_kaede> tarmac train tires
11:13:33 <andythenorth> I was curious whether Swedish Rails could change the look of the Horse tracks
11:13:47 <andythenorth> 2 of those are Swedish, 3 are Horse
11:15:36 <andythenorth> this slightly sidesteps the "wtf 63 railtypes?" grfs
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11:24:02 <andythenorth> so FIRS objects in a swamp 😛
11:24:09 <andythenorth> do they have foundations or not? 🙂
11:25:49 <andythenorth> and now I can't unsee the sprite sorter issue 🙂
11:28:43 <talltyler> I can get swamps on subtropic, but not every time. Worth noting that the special map flattening of that climate, and the fact that rivers can't end in desert, does not help swamp generation 🙂
11:29:31 <andythenorth> badges for tiles?
11:29:35 <kaji_kaede> I'm not aware of a lot of desert swamps.
11:29:45 <kaji_kaede> *Though I'm not known for my geographical knowledge.*
11:30:14 <peter1138> talltyler, my main concern is that your swamps are currently based on an artifacts of river generation being bad, and if river generation is improved they'll cease to exist.
11:31:57 <peter1138> (Also are we talking swamps or marshes? :))
11:33:26 <kaji_kaede> Don't think the house sprites are detailed enough for those.
11:35:54 <acs121> kaji_kaede: It exists !
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11:36:35 <acs121> These are the Al-Ahwar Marshes in Iraq. It may not look like a desert, but the rainfall is so meager that it is considered a desert in terms of climate
11:37:02 <kaji_kaede> Shit. All I think when I see this is "oooh, looks fun to race a hovercraft through"
11:37:08 <acs121> It's just a desert with a very wet and muddy spot, in other words, a marsh ahah
11:37:22 <kaji_kaede> Aye that checks out.
11:37:58 <kaji_kaede> You've taught me about something new to me on this planet. Cheers.
11:38:29 <acs121> There are a few places like this in Iraq, Yemen or Tunisia. Most often this is due to how the rivers flow or proximity to the sea.
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11:41:32 <talltyler> Well, my original thought was to put swamps somewhere along rivers that do end at the sea. I could explore that idea.
11:42:24 <talltyler> As for terms, I think of the wetlands with trees as swamps and the ones without trees as marshes. Either could be bogs, I think.
11:43:22 <mmtunligit> im so close to having this thing in a compileable state
11:43:30 <mmtunligit> wether itll do what i want it to is another matter
11:44:45 <peter1138> talltyler, yeah, it was a distinction that doesn't matter much at this level :)
11:45:43 <talltyler> I originally named them that way in the code, then realized it was a bikeshedding opportunity so I made the naming generic 🙂
11:46:50 <peter1138> Yeah, clearly I didn't even read the description properly :)
11:49:25 <talltyler> I want to improve rivers and map gen, etc., but so much of this falls into the trap of "incremental improvements are fine, but have you considered throwing it all out and taking a holistic approach that probably leads you to plate tectonics?"
11:50:14 <peter1138> Well... now you're talking :p
11:50:43 <talltyler> Also "add a million knobs to the genworld gui"
11:51:34 <kaji_kaede> talltyler: Oh hell yeah.
11:51:53 <kaji_kaede> Simulate earthquakes and the map moving slowly over billions of years.
11:51:53 <talltyler> Stop encouraging me 😛
11:52:19 <kaji_kaede> ~~If you don't want bad influences you wanna block me~~
11:52:44 <kaji_kaede> Any improvements to map generation are improvements I welcome eagerly.
11:55:22 <belajalilija> something to allow a sort of continent system would already be a great improvement
11:56:02 <mmtunligit> i think if we do eventually want to look at worldgen more broadly its useful to have feautres like this in place already, and then in the future we can just change what causes them to generate without needing to change what it looks like as well
11:56:02 <mmtunligit> for example, marshes would still be roughed up circles that stick to one elevation with a mix of moss and river tiles and maybe trees, but it no longer generates at the end of rivers that fail to reach the sea
11:56:36 <belajalilija> belajalilija: like huge landmasses that are disconnected
11:56:56 <mmtunligit> i may be underestimating complexity, i havent looked at the code, but generally i understand that spawning conditions and spawing behavior are two (mostly) seperate pieces of code
11:57:07 <belajalilija> sort of the opposite of what we have now, where it is 1 big land mass and many lake type things
11:57:39 <talltyler> Wetlands spawn when rivers can't find an end, but could easily be made to spawn randomly, maybe not even attached to a river
11:57:45 <acs121> talltyler: Something that could be implemented before that are full-fledged deltas, I think
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11:58:12 <kaji_kaede> belajalilija: Don't know how much sense this would actually make in vanilla OpenTTD.
11:58:16 <peter1138> Oh, I can't run the preview because Cloudflare.
11:58:23 <talltyler> Top priority for me is fixing this nonsense
11:59:15 <mmtunligit> i think if we did eventually want a continents/ plate techtonics world gen itd have to be a third option in the generation settings, i can see somehting like that taking significantly longer to generate a world and theres a lot of casual players who wont really care
11:59:30 <kaji_kaede> Unrelated note, I have always felt the tropical environment looks kinda... Ugly.
11:59:32 <peter1138> talltyler, btw how did the screenshot of the large wetlands happen, given the diameter limit?
11:59:43 <peter1138> Lots of wetlands merging together?
11:59:44 <mmtunligit> and who play maps too small for it to really make a difference
12:00:03 <belajalilija> kaji_kaede: i've seen a lot of people complain about vanilla terrain gen recently and i get the impression this is what they're looking for
12:00:11 <talltyler> Yeah, probably several wetlands together, but also it's just river length, and some of these can be extremely long
12:00:46 <belajalilija> mmtunligit: yeah, you'd wanna be on a map that is at leask 1kx1k i imagine
12:00:50 <belajalilija> which for some is already on the large size
12:00:53 <mmtunligit> yeah that was my thinking too
12:00:58 <LordAro> mm, cloudflare's turn to be sad
12:01:18 <kaji_kaede> belajalilija: Maybe? I've noticed it too, but I've never really been sure what people want. Biggest problem with particularly large maps is that the game isn't really designed to support it, especially factoring in things like cargodist + cargo decay.
12:01:32 <peter1138> I'm amused that old code tries to avoid calling Random(), and will pick particular bits from it. And these days we just call Random() for any old thing :)
12:01:49 <belajalilija> oh 100%, the current terrain gen is fine for small maps, which it was made for
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12:02:56 <mmtunligit> personally iw wouldnt do much for me, ive got my settings dailed in in such a way that i get a good mix of water, flat, and steep mountains that usually results in a few large islands and several smaller ones without letting any one flat area get so large as to be boring
12:03:32 <belajalilija> yeah it wouldnt do much for me either since i use height maps and am happy doing so
12:04:07 <belajalilija> also as my play style has evolved i have less desire for the maps in excess of 4kx4k that jgrpp offers
12:04:37 <mmtunligit> im too adhd to really get a large network going lol
12:04:58 <mmtunligit> between that and perfectionism its difficult
12:05:05 <kaji_kaede> belajalilija: I tend to prefer length and much more disparate towns and industries.
12:05:18 <mmtunligit> once we get some external scheduling tools itll be better though
12:05:36 <belajalilija> this is a heightmap for my server that is 4kx4k with 7 people on it
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12:05:41 <belajalilija> its meant for a long and slow game
12:05:44 <mmtunligit> kaji_kaede: jgrpp has ord/timetable import/export
12:05:52 <belajalilija> it will be more than enough for the 7 of us
12:06:13 <kaji_kaede> mmtunligit: Aye, I'm aware, just wondering if there's anything beyond that.
12:06:34 <mmtunligit> i know theres a tool in the works but i have no idea how far along it is
12:06:40 <kaji_kaede> belajalilija: Yeah... Had a server with a few people on, 4k was *plenty* for us to chew on.
12:06:46 <mmtunligit> not gonna bother the dev about it either
12:07:01 <kaji_kaede> Heck. I wanna play some multiplayer with folks again. Co-op building is fun.
12:07:14 <peter1138> order/timetable import/export seems so weird to me.
12:07:28 <belajalilija> kaji_kaede: im wanting to get my server back up again soon
12:07:41 <peter1138> Surely that's so unique to each game you can't just save and load it later.
12:07:47 <belajalilija> if one of the 6 people is no longer interested i'd invite you
12:07:53 <kaji_kaede> Me too, but I figured it's meant to be for hooking up to external tools.
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12:08:27 <kaji_kaede> belajalilija: Oh aye, might be fun if that happens.
12:08:35 <belajalilija> the theme is just broadly european, we have dbset, sbb set, ukrs2, rukts, hungarian, dutch, etc
12:09:26 <belajalilija> its a slow game too, you'd be very welcome to pop on for a few hours and then disappear for a week
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12:10:19 <kaji_kaede> Heh, that's good. I get to be productive for a long time, then suddenly pop up and make another 200 entries long order list.
12:23:07 <talltyler> Peter1138: I’m in a game with people who import/export timetables. Besides exporting to external stringline graph programs, one usecase is saving a multiplayer game locally, tweaking the timetable with the aid of fast-forward, then exporting said timetable to re-import into multiplayer.
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12:47:40 <peter1138> I see the decentralised Internet is all collapsing still.
12:48:50 <andythenorth> I have some sympathy
12:49:13 <LordAro> peter1138: we are continuing to investigate this issue
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12:50:00 <peter1138> Everyone puts their eggs in the same basket.
13:00:15 <andythenorth> I should probably get an AI friend or something
13:01:46 <mmtunligit> yeah import/export is there to make the insane levels of fiddlyness *some* players (read: me) easier to implement
13:02:04 <mmtunligit> *some players want
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13:09:52 <LordAro> peter1138: dammit it's broken our builds because the nodejs yum repositories are hosted on cloudflare and i added an ad-hoc dependency 2 weeks ago
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13:10:25 <LordAro> (rather than going through the usual process of creating a whole new build image)
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13:22:24 <kaji_kaede> I remember back when the AWS outage happened, BBC article saying: "*Amazon Web Services (AWS) had a bad day.* - That's how the boss of another big US tech firm Cloudflare put it – probably feeling very relieved that Monday's outage, hitting over 1,000 companies and affecting millions of internet users, had nothing to do with him."
13:22:31 <kaji_kaede> Almost exactly a month later...
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13:31:33 <andythenorth> could I detect if any other grf in the list uses a railtype feature? 👀
13:32:23 <andythenorth> I fear "GRM" will be in my future 😮
13:33:38 <andythenorth> oh maybe not, grf wiki suggests no GRM for railtypes 🙂
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13:44:04 <_zephyris> talltyler: Erosion does it well... expensive though
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13:44:57 <andythenorth> gaming landscape gen 😛
13:45:08 <andythenorth> waveform collapse?
13:45:44 <kaji_kaede> ...Have fantasised about designing worldgen of some sort. Suppose the 'how' is always the biggest question.
13:46:05 <_zephyris> My tectonics toys worked well for the large scale structure
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13:46:37 <kaji_kaede> andythenorth: Surely gaming landscape generation just adds bright RGB lighting and lots of pointless sharp angles everywhere, no?
13:47:52 <audigex> peter09207: Where's the best place for me to discuss a possible tweak to the badge spec? Been discussing it in Discord channel #add-on-development but Andy said he thinks you're not on Discord anymore other than IRC bridge. Is here the best place, or is there a ticket/PR that makes more sense?
13:49:30 <audigex> TL;DR: Don't display text in the purchase menu when `default` is set but `name` isn't. Currently it displays "foo/bar" as foo:bar even if there's no name defined. There seems to be no way to display the sprite without also displaying either a name or the foo: bar slug
13:52:08 * LordAro wonders what the relation between peter09207 & peter1138 is
13:52:35 <andythenorth> Beverly Hills 90210?
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13:56:02 <audigex> LordAro: Only one "Peter" showed up for tagging and I didn't consider the fact that him leaving Discord meant it wouldn't capture the bridged username I see above :p
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14:53:28 <gchromodynamics> kaji_kaede: you should be allowed to draw rivers in heightmaps
14:54:11 <kaji_kaede> gchromodynamics: you should not be allowed to draw rivers in heightmaps.
14:54:14 <kaji_kaede> heightmap is heightmap.
14:54:21 <kaji_kaede> if we could *include* rivers, great
14:54:42 <kaji_kaede> but not *in the heightmap itself*
14:54:45 <kaji_kaede> with the heightmap? sure
14:54:45 <gchromodynamics> you should be allowed to draw rivers in Something that you can import to the world generation easily
14:55:15 <gchromodynamics> ive considered just using the red/green/blue channels in the heightmap for extra generation control before
14:57:10 <talltyler> kuhnovic: may or may not have river importing in a draft state 😉
14:58:47 <kuhnovic> "I have a patch for that" would be exaggerating things, but I have something yes
14:59:50 <kuhnovic> It's basically code that just reads tile x/y coordinates and places river tiles at those coordinates. Very janky but it does work.
15:00:23 <kuhnovic> I would like to extend the town import functionality with such features, and make it a more generic import tool. That's my longterm plan.
15:03:22 <locosage> cmclient has tree map, it's not that hard to do the same for rivers or whatever
15:03:55 <locosage> could also use color to draw things on the heightmap itself
15:04:21 <talltyler> At the risk of exploiting Cunningham's Law...
15:04:21 <talltyler> My current approach to solving these sea holes is to measure the number of connected sea tiles, and if it's below some arbitrary threshold, simply terraform the hole flat to force the river to keep looking or form a lake/wetland.
15:04:21 <talltyler> Unfortunately I am not smart enough to figure out storing the set of tiles when using a recursive function (or have made some other silly mistake). The `unordered_set` is empty, as the print log says "Sea too small" but doesn't mention terraforming.
15:04:46 <locosage> locosage: though not sure how usable that would be to map makers
15:04:47 <andythenorth> will this convert all small seas? 😛
15:04:54 <andythenorth> elegant solution to FIRS port problem
15:05:44 <talltyler> Depends on what the threshold is set to.
15:06:12 <talltyler> I am wary of filling extremely large seas though.
15:06:42 <talltyler> As it would look silly, etc.
15:08:37 <gchromodynamics> talltyler: istileflat?
15:09:16 <kuhnovic> So it your idea to fill the hole, or just make it so that it's never a target for rivers to end up in?
15:09:53 <talltyler> Fill the hole if a river wants to end there, otherwise leave it alone
15:10:14 <talltyler> Also I found a stupid mistake, missed the inversion of `!IsTileFlat()` 😛
15:13:34 <kuhnovic> It's a bit ironic as you'd expect the river to fill the hole with even more water 😛
15:14:05 * kuhnovic come on Kuhnovic, it's a game not a simulation
15:14:58 <talltyler> My day job is game design for a simulation game, you have no idea how often I have this debate 😛
15:16:07 <audigex> The first T stands for Timberborn, the rest remains as before
15:16:20 <kuhnovic> My day job is working on simulation software, but we use a well known game engine, so we have a lot of similar debates 😛
15:18:26 <talltyler> Now to get better at terraforming 😛
15:20:17 <kuhnovic> IIRC terraforming only does one corner
15:21:01 <talltyler> Slope slope = ComplementSlope(GetTileSlope(sea_tile));
15:21:01 <talltyler> Command<CMD_TERRAFORM_LAND>::Do(DoCommandFlag::Execute, sea_tile, slope, true);
15:21:34 <talltyler> Which I don't hate, honestly, but it's not what I meant to do 😉
15:23:29 <kuhnovic> I think I used the CMD_LEVEL_LAND in my norway map hack-patch
15:24:36 <kuhnovic> I did a lower and then a raise action to make sure a city had at least one tile to be placed on. But yeah, that would still create a hill...
15:24:59 <talltyler> That's also a rectangle, which likely won't match the sea to be filled
15:25:18 <peter1138> I think images to define where trees/rivers are is more usable than json, but...
15:26:36 <peter1138> PNG with layers, are they a thing?
15:27:10 <peter1138> GIMP .xcf import is a bit... no :)
15:30:30 <kuhnovic> Image-based import would be pretty cool, especially for things like rivers
15:41:18 <peter1138> OpenRaster looks like a suitably derelict open format that supports layers...
15:43:33 <rito12_51026> talltyler: Threshold configurable by GS / GRFs ?
15:43:34 <kuhnovic> A png with just-use-these-specific-colors would probably be easier
15:44:34 <talltyler> GS doesn't run during map gen, and there's absolutely no reason for GRFs to control map gen.
15:46:28 <rito12_51026> MGS - MagGenScript in squirrel ?
15:58:16 <peter1138> kuhnovic, yeah, using the RGB data instead of munging it to greyscale.
15:58:51 <peter1138> But brightness is awkward.
15:59:25 <peter1138> And mMultiple images means the scenario distribution system would need to be changed.
16:05:53 <peter1138> Was it possible to use the high-level water regions stuff to find if water is small or connected...
16:12:13 <peter1138> Or did you not save the seed :)
16:12:16 <talltyler> Photo of "not a hole" 😛
16:12:31 <talltyler> I did not save the seed
16:16:29 <LordAro> 1024 feels way too big to me
16:16:44 <LordAro> nothing especially wrong with rivers "terminating" at lakes
16:18:43 <peter1138> Typical programmer, using a power-of-2 for no particular reason :-)
16:19:28 <talltyler> Arbitrary number is arbitrary 😛
16:20:04 <talltyler> I haven’t played around with the number, although I started with 100 and that felt too small
16:22:09 <peter1138> Area adds up quickly, but.
16:22:57 <peter1138> 30*30, or 20*50, or 10*100.
16:26:41 <audigex> Peter did you see my message above re: badges?
16:28:17 <talltyler> Heheh, a 64x64 map with one edge set to water and the other freeform gets all its water removed
16:30:46 <peter1138> audigex, vaguely. I don't know what you're asking. If a badge doesn't have a name, then its name shouldn't be displayed in the purchase list, because... there's no name to display.
16:31:26 <peter1138> (I don't know what "'default' is set" means.)
16:34:52 <jfkuayue> W.R.T. cloudflare outrage, this is partly the reason why I type HTML by hand. Still hosted by host company though
16:36:43 <jfkuayue> And remind me of the github actions outrage months ago
16:39:01 <peter1138> Doesn't help if your static HTML is being served through Cloudflare.
16:40:13 <jfkuayue> No, I deliberately don’t choose cloudflare.
16:40:29 <andythenorth> your customer support desk vendor might though
16:40:40 <andythenorth> or your payroll provider
16:41:04 <andythenorth> or your CDN vendor
16:45:35 <andythenorth> `grf_future_status` is some kind of nml magic
16:45:39 <andythenorth> wonder what it actually means
16:46:43 <andythenorth> might be action 7 condition type 0x08
16:48:24 <LordAro> i'm not sure typing html by hand is the boast you think it is
16:48:38 <andythenorth> I write html by hand
16:48:44 <LordAro> (my website is also hand written iirc, but you don't find me boasting about it)
16:48:56 <andythenorth> then I generated 2GB of docs with it 🙁
16:49:01 <andythenorth> that was a bad AWS bill day
16:50:58 <talltyler> I hand wrote a lot of HTML back in, like 2012. It was a bigger boast then. 😛
16:51:09 <audigex> I can only describe it in NML terms sorry peter, will try to explain what I mean more clearly
16:51:09 <audigex> FEAT_BADGES, badge_foo_bar
16:51:13 <audigex> default: sprite_foo_bar
16:51:15 <audigex> FEAT_BADGES, badge_foo
16:51:19 <audigex> I assign foo/bar to a train. The sprite displays as expected, and the text displays in the purchase menu description for the the train as
16:51:21 <audigex> If I remove the name property entirely, the sprite still displays and the text in the purchase menu becomes
16:51:23 <audigex> Presumably parsed from the label "foo/bar"
16:51:23 <audigex> Logically I would expect that the lack of Name, means that nothing shows up in the purchase description - because I've explicitly NOT set a user-visible text
16:51:25 <audigex> Andy raised a point to consider the "..." menu for toggling badge filters, but it shows up in there as "foo" even without a name, so that's not really a big problem I think
16:51:25 <audigex> Regardless of the details, I'd like the option to add a sprite without text appearing in the purchase menu description
16:51:57 <LordAro> if something requires that many lines to explain, it needs to be an issue/discussion/thing
16:52:03 <LordAro> also it looks terrible from the irc side
16:53:49 <audigex> Well, it can be described more simply as "I'd like to be able to display a badge sprite without displaying any text in the purchase menu description for that vehicle", but it seems my first attempt at that was a bit ambiguous
16:54:29 <audigex> If no name: is set for the badge in NML, the text is still displayed ("foo: bar" presumably extracted from the label "foo/bar")
17:01:37 <peter1138> No, there is no code to do that.
17:03:09 <peter1138> Badges without names also don't show up in the filter list.
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17:08:01 <LordAro> i'm not opposed to the idea, the pre-commit hooks have historically been neglected (i don't think anyone actually uses them for normal development, they're largely just used by the CI for basic linting)
17:08:16 <LordAro> check-diff.py would be the right place, i guess
17:08:42 <audigex> ... can there be code to do that? I can have the text without a sprite, it seems sensible to be able to have a sprite without the text too. Maybe with a flag if a toggle on name isn't the sensible solution?
17:10:48 <peter1138> audigex, I mean there is no code that makes up a name from the label.
17:11:02 <audigex> It's kinda annoying to have this at the top of the purchase list for every train just so that I can attach a BR badge. I could attach the sprite to some other badge that I use on every train (eg consist), but that's confusing to the user because they'd have to toggle my Consist badge to turn the sprite off
17:11:06 <peter1138> If you have a name showing, you set it somewhere.
17:11:27 <audigex> Maybe I've misunderstood something, it's possible my code was creating names when I noticed this (I was focusing on sprites, not names)
17:12:36 <audigex> Ignore the name conversation for a moment, I might have led us on a bit of a wild goose chase with that.... can we have the option to turn the purchase menu text off for a badge, while still showing a sprite? Via.... whatever method is most sensible, really, I don't mind how I have to do it as long as I can do it
17:12:38 <peter1138> LordAro, problem then is when you need to call an API function that is mispelled...
17:13:28 <peter1138> The only way is to not set a name.
17:13:29 <Rubidium> yeah, good luck pushing for SDL_Colour and png_colour :D
17:14:27 <audigex> If I don't set a name, the sprite disappears. If I do set a name, the text appears. If I make a change request and say pretty please, can we have code that allows me to display the sprite without displaying the text?
17:16:54 <peter1138> Drawing badges doesn't need a name for the badge.
17:17:16 <andythenorth> FWIW when Horse doesn't set a name, the badges aren't shown in purchase list
17:17:20 <peter1138> (Though the class itself needs a badge.)
17:17:23 <andythenorth> and the badge toggle goes
17:17:39 <andythenorth> ah yeah, I don't have a class
17:17:43 <andythenorth> useless testing 😛
17:17:47 <andythenorth> LLM would do better
17:18:07 <peter1138> (Though the class badge itself needs a name.)
17:18:11 <peter1138> Was what I meant to type.
17:18:22 <LordAro> peter1138: mm, definitely tricky to detect reliably
17:19:32 <audigex> Let's assume the sprite is set. If the name is also set, you see (sprite, toggle, purchase text). If the name is not set you see none of those three things
17:20:48 <audigex> I'd like to be able to set something eg misc_flags: bitmask(BADGE_NO_PURCHASE_TEXT).... or whatever. And have it show the toggle and the sprite but NOT the purchase text
17:21:02 <certator> LordAro: I can prepare something if that's okay. I also checked `check-diff.py` and can add changes there. However I wonder what should be the extent of the changes - at least I wound switch to 4-spaces indentation to follow [PEP8 guidelines](https://peps.python.org/pep-0008/#indentation) as pre-requisite.
17:21:03 <peter1138> Personally I would set a name for anything that isn't internal metadata, allowing players to filter/search and what not as intended.
17:21:29 <audigex> Right, but what if I want to display a sprite without displaying text in the purchase fields?
17:22:14 <audigex> I don't give two shits about this, but I assume we want it to stay for the user
17:22:59 <audigex> Currentlt it's not possible to display the sprite without ALSO displaying "Newgrf: Brtrains" (ignore the weird capitalisation)
17:23:49 <audigex> From this conversation I think we always want Name available if anything is displayed (so that the user can turn the sprite off, re-order it etc), I misled the conversation talking about Name earlier
17:24:20 <audigex> My question now is... can we have a flag or something that disables the purchase text "Newgrf: Brtrains, brmetro" while still displaying the sprite and filter?
17:24:43 <peter1138> Badge sprites (and column configuration) requires only the class label to have a name, not the badges within the class.
17:24:49 <audigex> And when I say "can we have?" I mean "Should I make a feature/change request ticket, or would I be wasting my time?"
17:25:34 <peter1138> The badge class needs a name so that it can be shown in the configuration list.
17:25:35 <audigex> Right, but the still show up even if I don't set a name for the badges within the class (assuming your terminology is "badge/class" when defining a badge)
17:25:53 <audigex> Yeah, ignore name entirely for a moment
17:26:01 <audigex> Assume the badge has a name and a spriteset
17:26:10 <peter1138> The functionality is dependent on the name, so it can't be ignored.
17:26:52 <audigex> Right, let me try to be super clear. Ignore everything I've said before this
17:27:59 <audigex> Can we add a flag (or some other mechanism) to badges, so that a badge which has a sprite, has the sprite displayed, and has the configuration displayed, does NOT display the badge text ("Class: Badge") underneath the vehicle stats in the purchase list (Underneath Speed: 60km/h etc)
17:28:53 <audigex> For the purposes of this, the spriteset would need to be set (for the sprite to show up), and a name (for the configuration). Name is no longer relevant to my request, I understand it's required for the configuration menu
17:34:22 <peter1138> * badge "newgrf" needs to have a name set.
17:35:09 <peter1138> * badge "newgrf/00112233" does not need to have a name set, and if it has a sprite, should show up when the class "newgrf" is enabled, etc.
17:36:03 <peter1138> If it does have a name set, then it's possible to filter for it.
17:37:04 <peter1138> What you want: all that, but also a flag to say "don't ever show this in the purchase info"
17:38:04 <audigex> Yes (I think, assuming I've interpreted you correctly)
17:39:04 <audigex> So the sprite would still show, it would still be in the configuration list (for the user to re-order the badges, hide the sprite etc), but they wouldn't see the "newgrf/00112233" entry in the purchase info
17:39:15 <peter1138> (Also, given "newgrf" is a sort of built-in class, maybe it should have a name by default too...)
17:40:24 <audigex> Yeah that seems sensible
17:41:31 <audigex> We got there in the end, sorry for the distraction with the talk about names - I misunderstood how that part worked
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17:42:19 <peter1138> The thing is badges are designed to give control to users; users get to configure what they see and can search for. So it's intentionally sort of... restricted for NewGRF authors.
17:43:05 <peter1138> Also, 16 fucking archviles at once is a pain in the arse.
17:43:53 <andythenorth> I would try chainsawing them personally
17:44:11 <peter1138> It's not enough. A BFG will somehow only kill 1 with a direct hit.
17:45:01 <peter1138> And given half a second they've respawned a load of fodder monsters that block more shots.
17:45:09 <andythenorth> wasn't there some hack that cloned your marine into 16 marines, offset on one axis?
17:45:37 <andythenorth> how many railtypes does Doom support nowadays?
17:48:53 <audigex> peter1138: Yeah some restriction makes sense - we shouldn't let the newGRF prevent the user from reordering or hiding a badge etc (although I guess the author can currently just slap the sprite on the purchase sprite and there's nothing the user can do about it... but at least that has to be a deliberate choice)
17:49:57 <peter1138> Badges arose from them doing that, of course.
17:50:10 <peter1138> All inconsistent like.
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17:51:54 <audigex> Yeah I completely agree with the goals of badges - there are a few things that I find a tad too restrictive (I think there's a max size of 16x16? Some company logos don't fit.... but generally it's a positive for the user to be able to hide the, re-order them etc, and to automatically line them up if the user is sensible about them
17:53:08 <LordAro> "generally it's a positive"
17:53:14 <LordAro> such glowing praise :D
17:53:28 <andythenorth> "badges are transformative" I think was the intended meaning
17:54:05 <andythenorth> I often find I've said "I hate everything about OpenTTD" when I meant something else 🙂
17:54:34 <LordAro> the keys are right next to each other
17:55:01 <peter1138> The badge size limits are there so that badges don't dwarf the engine preview sprites themeslves.
17:55:42 <peter1138> Also makes them fit within the normal line height.
17:56:01 <peter1138> If you need more detail, 2x or 4x exists.
18:01:03 <andythenorth> are never what I want them to be 😛
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18:08:37 <LordAro> frosch made a newgrf mistake :o
18:16:30 <peter1138> With CZTR it's difficult to know.
18:19:23 <andythenorth> reminds me, time to read reddit
18:19:43 <peter1138> What is FIRS' fault now?
18:19:53 <jfkuayue> I type <p></p> by hand
18:20:12 <andythenorth> I think Horse is to blame next
18:22:00 <xarick> where do i disable this
18:22:37 <xarick> i click to configure and it points to an empty section of the options
18:24:33 <jfkuayue> there are people advising me to use some auto generator instead of hand typing such timetables, but I am not sure that was a good idea
18:25:10 <jfkuayue> And it becomes a halt anyway
18:27:02 <peter1138> Hmm, I guess CZTR stuff is not in a public source repository. Oh well.
18:27:29 <jfkuayue> Is petertown raining now?
18:27:54 <jfkuayue> I thought the storm was over
18:28:39 <jfkuayue> CZTR sources are not in public
18:29:49 <jfkuayue> There are disproportionately many Czech and Slovak player of OpenTTD. It might be a chicken-egg reasoning problem with the popularity of CZTR
18:31:46 <peter1138> Must be generated somehow because the code is non-sensical.
18:33:38 <peter1138> There is a varaction 2 that is 6314 bytes long.
18:34:39 <jfkuayue> Oops, does the word “generated” stated here refer to nmlc or macro-processor?
18:34:57 <peter1138> It means "not written by hand"
18:35:00 <andythenorth> jfkuayue: do you actually type every `<td>`? 😮
18:35:11 <jfkuayue> Copy and paste though
18:36:04 <andythenorth> ok Horse now breaks JP+ less
18:36:07 <jfkuayue> But this is allowed since it is not “unknown magic” by some generators…
18:36:13 <andythenorth> I deactivate more Horse railtypes
18:36:25 <andythenorth> so the ID pool isn't exhausted
18:36:39 <andythenorth> all the other railtype grfs should do the same really
18:38:39 <jfkuayue> I want all the contents of my html/css/js files known by me
18:40:14 <andythenorth> I mean...we all have weird traits
18:40:19 <andythenorth> that's probably yours
18:40:27 <andythenorth> code generators exist for a reason
18:42:51 <jfkuayue> If I had the will to make my own timetable generator, I would use that
18:44:02 <andythenorth> it's probably 10 lines of python 😛
18:44:08 <andythenorth> with the most basic string formatting
18:44:35 <jfkuayue> But how to input the raw data file?
18:44:44 <andythenorth> where is the source?
18:44:59 <jfkuayue> I type the raw from a paper book
18:45:16 <andythenorth> I'd put that in a python dict or list
18:45:21 <andythenorth> some would use json
18:46:47 <jfkuayue> The problem is converting these to online data
18:47:11 <andythenorth> but you can separate data, logic and presentation
18:49:07 <jfkuayue> It would be a numpy.ndarray
18:49:44 <andythenorth> I have never numpy, but it probably can generate python primitives (lists or dicts)
18:49:58 <andythenorth> being such a major package, it might have a html generator built in
18:53:49 <jfkuayue> The dimension would be O(station count) x O(train count) x 2
18:54:07 <audigex> andythenorth: 😂 I’ve not delved hard enough into usage to give strong views either way yet
18:58:48 <andythenorth> peter1138: you should apply more warnings before posting things like that
19:14:06 <peter1138> Hmm, so CZTR appears to be returning a callback result when trying to get the sprite base.
19:24:48 <andythenorth> I don't want to throw shade, but as far as I know, CZTR is made of hopes and dreams
19:25:22 <andythenorth> maybe I'm just sour because they forked FIRS, then wouldn't comply with GPL
19:26:28 <locosage> talltyler: GS needs mapgen control very much, on citymania I have mapgen tweaks in pretty much every game mode
19:26:36 <locosage> especially for industry placement
19:30:50 <mmtunligit> if im opening a QueryStringWindow, what do i put in the first parameter to get an empty editbox
19:32:51 * andythenorth tries to think of a funny comment for 12183, fails
19:33:23 <andythenorth> FIRS has 47 tile IDs left 😛
19:33:37 <Rubidium> mmtunligit: I'd reckon something like {}
19:33:39 <andythenorth> 2 or 3 used per industry 😛
19:34:19 <mmtunligit> Rubidium: great thanks, forgot about that
19:55:53 <talltyler> mmtunligit: You'll need to get rid of that merge commit to pass the commit checker. I suggest an interactive rebase and then a force-push -- the button on GitHub.com usually makes a mess of things 🙂
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20:56:02 <audigex> andythenorth: Get it removed from BaNaNaS until they do
21:51:31 <xarick> how do i use find on this->list->buckets
21:51:55 <xarick> it is a value, item pair, and i wanna find the item
21:53:49 <talltyler> No longer fills in the ocean (or does anything, actually) on maps smaller than 256x256
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22:48:32 <reldred> talltyler: <a:eyesshaking:833706919465058355>
22:50:00 <talltyler> Y’all should test it and leave your thoughts about the arbitrary threshold for minimum sea hole. Currently it’s 1024 tiles.
22:50:23 <reldred> There’s also a few restrictions on rivers/lakes that might be worth testing, I’ve got settings to remove them in JGRPP and they work quite nicely
22:50:57 <reldred> Looking to port your PR’s to JGRPP and see how they interact
22:51:03 <talltyler> I want to do some work on deserts soon, they have so much potential but kind of suck right now
22:51:09 <reldred> But lake code looks a bit different so I need to do some tweaks
22:57:47 <peter1138> Well, you don't generally need to port merged PRs to JGRPP
23:08:33 <reldred> peter1138: Not really, but it may otherwise take a month or two to make it into jgrpp, and it's in an area of code that I've already got a few merged PR's.
23:09:27 <reldred> talltyler: Sounds like a threshold that's fine for OpenTTD, I'll probably make it configurable in JGRPP since we've also got bigger map sizes and a smaller or larger threshold may be desirable.
23:09:40 <reldred> Also, i love it, merge it right meow.
23:11:05 <reldred> so many more swamps now ❤️
23:12:13 <reldred> still getting some teeny little rivers
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23:15:36 <bigyihsuan> reldred: i'm guessing the sea tiles are not rivers
23:15:46 <talltyler> One of my ideas for subtropic is a setting to “flip” the desert, so that low tiles are rainforest and high tiles are desert.
23:15:46 <talltyler> I think it would look especially good with a setting to choose the currently-climate-specific elevation adjustments, so you can choose between “normal”, “lowlands (subtropic)”, and “plateaus (subarctic)”.
23:15:46 <talltyler> Desert plateaus rising above rainforest would be really cool.
23:15:47 <bigyihsuan> but them river rivers look nice
23:16:25 <talltyler> Yeah that looks like a heightmap with sea-level rivers
23:17:40 <reldred> talltyler: I just set rainforest coverage to 0, gives the same effect, rainforests can still spawn in other areas anyway
23:18:25 <reldred> also, the arbitrary restrictions on lakes and rivers in deserts tend to result in excessive amounts of desert on a lot of maps, since the game creates tropic/rainforest areas around water sources.
23:19:03 <reldred> also in jgrpp we've got expanded tropic/rainforest bands around water which might be nice to port to OpenTTD and make it map size depenedant rather than parameterised.
23:21:30 <talltyler> 0% rainforest tends to just make the map stripey in vanilla 🙂
23:21:59 <reldred> combined with the other jgrpp changes it works quite nicely, it's how I play tropic 😄
23:22:02 <talltyler> Green areas around water scaled by map size could be interesting though
23:22:29 <talltyler> Ideally I’d figure out a way to make actual desert regions like in the original terrain generator
23:22:39 <reldred> Yeah, especially since compared to vanilla TTD map gen OTTD tropic maps are basically super flat and covered almost entirely by desert.
23:23:12 <reldred> the water tweaks, and then green width really help bring life and variety back into tropic climate
23:23:51 <reldred> but also, jgrpp has desert rocks too 😛 (albeit with a .grf I haven't released outside of github)
23:24:41 <reldred> it took a little while to get tropic to where it is in jgrpp and some of it relies on configuring settings that I'm pretty sure nobody apart from me tinkers with 😛
23:25:28 <reldred> But yeah happy to share notes
23:27:11 <talltyler> I recall some experiments with vanilla desert rocks
23:28:31 <reldred> I thought Peter said the bits were used elsewhere? I remember badgering him about it when he did snow rocks
23:29:16 <talltyler> Maybe I was thinking of the sprites existing in a bonus OGFX2 add-on
23:34:31 <reldred> Maybe, I did make one using ogfx2 sprites as well
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