IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-09-26
⏴ go to previous day
01:17:54 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
01:28:49 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
01:50:43 *** izhirahider has quit IRC (synthon.oftc.net larich.oftc.net)
01:50:43 *** felix has quit IRC (synthon.oftc.net larich.oftc.net)
01:50:43 *** rightnut has quit IRC (synthon.oftc.net larich.oftc.net)
01:50:43 *** greeter has quit IRC (synthon.oftc.net larich.oftc.net)
01:51:43 *** izhirahider has joined #openttd
01:51:43 *** rightnut has joined #openttd
01:51:43 *** greeter has joined #openttd
02:22:26 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
02:22:58 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
02:29:15 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
02:47:53 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
03:04:07 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
03:39:15 *** Zathras_11 has joined #openttd
03:42:36 *** Zathras has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
03:45:10 *** Smedles has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
03:46:04 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
05:09:41 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
07:06:03 <kuhnovic> Is there a reason why we're not using the anonymous namespace?
07:12:56 <peter1138> Yes, C doesn't have namespaces.
07:17:43 <kuhnovic> That made me chuckle
07:51:36 <peter1138> `dump_info railtypes` is amusing when there's 284 of them defined. A big long meaningless list ;D
07:52:05 <peter1138> (But so is the menu)
07:54:48 *** reldred has joined #openttd
07:54:48 <reldred> So, UI wise, I was thinking... Badges? Problem is it would need to be click to open not click and hold. Vertical list of badge icons up the left hand side of the list, click the badge to filter the list, yadda yadda.
08:04:06 <andythenorth[d]> me, not starting a GH discussion, still
08:05:45 <peter1138> Linking the same image every time, definitely going to help, sure.
08:06:49 <reldred> andythenorth[d]: that's a very 'thick' ui
08:08:22 <reldred> lots of screen real estate used
08:10:59 <reldred> cities skylines by comparison, granted that UI also falters if too many types are loaded, but that's where I think ttd's vertical lists are better. It would just be the difference between click and click to hold. Maybe if you click and hold it just works as normal but if you single click and release on the main toolbar button the list stays open. There has been some grumbling from people they
08:10:59 <reldred> would like the ui to support single click as well as click and hold. Might kill two birds with one stone.
08:15:38 <peter1138> Drop down lists do support single click, but if filtering is added to the menu then click-and-hold isn't going to work well.
08:16:16 <reldred> Yeah that's my problem with it
08:17:20 <peter1138> Hmm, can I get the seed of an existing savegame...
08:17:22 <reldred> can the user easily wrap their head around that? 'I am doing two things in this menu, I need to click multiple times' vs the muscle memory of just clicking and holding.
08:18:08 <reldred> Its certainly something new users struggle with though, the main tool ribbon being click and hold, we get questions every so often about that.
08:19:15 <peter1138> The new default is click-to-open then click-to-select.
08:19:50 <peter1138> click-and-hold still works as well, but click-for-default-action does not.
08:21:06 <reldred> OK, so that would still be compatible then with adding badges as filters to the drop down list
08:21:24 <reldred> If the filters are how you want them already just click and hold and select the entry
08:21:37 <reldred> if you want to change the filter let go of your mouse button and select a badge to toggle the filter
08:22:43 <peter1138> Ah whoops, when RailType and RoadType are uint16_t underneath, but the tunnel/bridge commands are 'special' and take a uint8_t instead of RailType/RoadType, it broke ;D
08:22:49 <andythenorth[d]> FWIW, my approach to UIs is often to throw out an obviously shit one, based on something familiar
08:23:02 <andythenorth[d]> this thing where somebody crafts a photoshop file to death
08:23:06 <andythenorth[d]> isn't the way
08:23:24 <reldred> my ideas come to me in my sleep
08:23:37 <andythenorth[d]> 95% of ideas are in the shower
08:24:16 <peter1138> Okay look, why are the "Water ways" and "Airports" construction menus anyway?
08:24:20 <peter1138> There's never another choice.
08:24:42 <peter1138> Is it for consistency...?
08:25:21 <peter1138> "That's how the original did it"
08:25:32 <andythenorth[d]> menus with only one option? 👀
08:25:38 <peter1138> Basically this is noticable more now that the default is click-and-click.
08:25:43 <andythenorth[d]> now that we have click and hold, it's so obvious how weird it is
08:25:50 <reldred> goes it throw out limitation?
08:26:15 <reldred> sometimes the limitation is 'that's how ttd worked'
08:26:46 <andythenorth[d]> no no, reddit and forums are very clear, it's because the code is a mess of C++ spagheti
08:26:49 <andythenorth[d]> don't ya know
08:27:56 <peter1138> Sound/music doesn't need to be a menu.
08:28:00 <reldred> ah yes, the fountain of all truth and knowledge
08:29:46 <andythenorth[d]> why aren't + and - zoom menus?
08:30:01 <andythenorth[d]> consistency is the most important thing right?
08:30:05 <peter1138> On the other hand, having some buttons be actions and some be menus is also inconsistent.
08:30:26 <peter1138> Overlay a 'dropdown menu' icon on the dropdown buttons?
08:31:33 <reldred> plenty of games have toolbars with buttons that can be either actions in themself or submenus
08:31:45 <reldred> I don't think that rubs people the wrong way too much
08:31:52 <reldred> single item menus though are a little daft
08:35:36 <andythenorth[d]> I mean literally discord probably has same if I clicked around a bit
08:36:25 <peter1138> Single item menus didn't matter with the old behavioiur.
08:36:58 <LordAro> that Yapf() method is nasty...
08:37:21 <LordAro> surely you can just use this-> ?
08:37:51 <reldred> maybe make single item menus default to the old behaviour?
08:38:22 <reldred> or throw out signle item menus yadda yadda
08:38:46 <reldred> i should go lie down i'm tired
08:40:46 <peter1138> And for a single-player game with no AI, a lot more of the menus are single-item.
08:41:02 <kuhnovic> LordAro: Yapf is nasty. But I think in this case it can actually be this->
08:43:08 <peter1138> `this->` instead of `Yapf().` would make things a lot clearer.
08:43:09 <LordAro> depends what Types::Tpf is doing :D
08:43:25 <andythenorth[d]> everything is palettes?
08:43:30 <andythenorth[d]> drop down arrows? 😛
08:43:53 <peter1138> I think KuDR didn't use `this->` at all, we retrofitted that relatively recently after removing `m_`.
08:43:53 <kuhnovic> C++ 23 introduces deducing this. With that we might be able to do away with all the Yapf() stuff
08:44:36 <peter1138> Hmm, "derived from this class" well.
08:44:54 <peter1138> So it's all a bit backwards :o
08:45:10 <kuhnovic> That is exactly what it is
08:46:43 <kuhnovic> You do avoid virtual calls this way. But nowadays compilers are able to devirtualize pretty well as longer as you mark the overridden function final.
08:48:07 <kuhnovic> And I wonder if you'd really notice the overhead of any of those function calls. But there are a lot of calls being done, that's for sure.
08:52:22 <peter1138> Well it was intended to use any gain where possible.
08:54:23 <kuhnovic> Makes sense. It doesn't hurt. Unless you are working on the code 😛
08:56:24 <kuhnovic> The fact that it's broken up into components makes it a lot worse though. The river builder and water region implementations don't do that, and they are much easier to understand.
09:01:19 <peter1138> Yes, but you wrote those so are somewhat biased :)
09:05:51 <peter1138> Should I get the new Pi 500+?
09:06:01 <peter1138> Seems somewhat expensive for what is still a Pi...
09:08:41 <peter1138> Still doesn't run MacOs :p
09:11:31 <kuhnovic> Consider it a mechanical keyboard with benefits
09:12:26 <andythenorth[d]> peter1138: isn't that a feature in your case? 🙂
09:12:36 <andythenorth[d]> (the macOS, not the price)
09:13:49 <peter1138> I guess if we have to stop this stuff I won't have to care about mac OS either.
09:14:48 <andythenorth[d]> wonder if Train Whack! would be multi-platform
09:18:01 <peter1138> Does it have platforms?
09:18:12 <peter1138> Are they 1-tile infinite length unloaders?
09:23:30 <peter1138> `TrackFollower F(Yapf().GetVehicle());`
09:23:49 <peter1138> This is all disallowed by our coding-style :)
09:32:17 <kuhnovic> YAPF violates our coding style all over the place
09:59:32 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
10:12:16 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
10:29:53 *** mwmoriarty has joined #openttd
10:29:53 <mwmoriarty> jfkuayue: Hey, don't knock 7 - better than most versions of MS...
10:33:43 <peter1138> I like it when kuhnovic gets time off. In fact we all need some time off... :)
10:40:52 <mwmoriarty> I was reviewing threads posted on helicopters out of interest. Recently I watched one of Hellish's videos on the subject and his advice was to just don't use them. Being defiant like I am I thought I would see if I could make any money with them tapping into subsidies. I eked out a living that way but really there are so many better ways to earn money in the game... Someone mentioned they can be
10:40:52 <mwmoriarty> useful to a) reaching islands, b) distributing engineering and farming supplies. I suppose it depends on your goals and transportation needs. They can be useful in some situations. They are quick and easy to set up and require very little space, so that is one bonus.
10:43:17 <peter1138> Not everything needs to have a purpose.
10:43:27 <peter1138> Objects being a huge example.
10:48:11 *** lobstarooo has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
10:48:47 *** lobster has joined #openttd
10:50:58 <peter1138> Which has an accidental commit from something else.
10:51:19 <peter1138> Ah, I accidentally commited something to master instead of a branch :)
10:52:43 <peter1138> Makes a change from just stashing it with no name and then losing it.
11:14:19 <andythenorth[d]> I was summoned 👀
11:38:21 <peter1138> There, less unintended commits.
11:40:15 <peter1138> So, who fancies prepping an RC before we get too carried away with changes...?
11:40:32 <rito12_51026> peter1138: Right click for default action or ctrl click or alt click there are so many possibilities for the replacement of default left click
11:40:52 <peter1138> What are you talking about?>
11:41:55 <rito12_51026> The rail drop down button
11:43:30 <peter1138> Right click is either "show tooltip" or "close window".
11:43:30 <rito12_51026> I like the feature to just click it once in order to open the last used rail type
11:43:43 <peter1138> Ctrl-click is usually too hidden for anyone to know.
11:44:37 <peter1138> And we don't use Alt anywhere because tradionally that was used by system stuff. (Though that's mostly moved to the "Win" key)
11:45:19 <peter1138> The click behaviour applies to ALL the drop down menus, not just railtypes.
11:46:26 <rito12_51026> Ugh, maybe then a shortcut?
11:49:29 <rito12_51026> For reference, CS remembers previously used road type and auto choses it when "dropdown" is shown
11:51:52 <talltyler> I have some PRs that fix/improve new 15.0 features that I’d really like to get in before we feature-freeze for an RC. They’re in the milestone on GitHub. After that, I’m happy to do the work to release RC1. 🙂
11:55:09 <rito12_51026> Cities: Skylines II is nice with the half transparent UI
12:00:00 <cu-kai> did they yet fix the performance of that game?
12:02:14 <rito12_51026> They fixed up to the playable level
12:03:12 <jessicathegunlady> ...God, the zoning is still just as icky as CS1 though.
12:32:08 <talltyler> kuhnovic: If you have time and are looking for more ocean improvements, I took your advice on [#13289](https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/13289) and it's ready for review. Much cleaner than the last time you looked at it, with my previous approach. 😄
12:32:48 <talltyler> Would be nice to have in 15.0, but not related to any other new features so I removed it from the milestone
12:39:49 *** su1phur has joined #openttd
12:39:49 <su1phur> Is it possible to determine how many accessible station tiles are there for a particular station/destination?
12:43:20 <kuhnovic> I do like ocean improvements. I'll have a look!
12:45:51 <talltyler> su1phur: Possible in GRF? No. Possible in OpenTTD itself? Not currently as far as I'm aware, but could probably be added. Why?
12:46:17 <peter1138> What is an "accessible station tile"?
12:46:42 <peter1138> The "Coverage" button shows what tiles a station covers.
12:47:21 <su1phur> For an arbitrary example, say a train station with 2 platforms, 1 with 3rd rail and 1 with OHLE. An OHLE/3rd rail train should only be able to access 1, whereas a diesel/steam one would be ablet o access both
12:48:03 <su1phur> talltyler: Thinking up stuff as part of my grad project, haha, so just seeing/thinking about what might be feasible or not
12:49:28 <su1phur> su1phur: To extend the example to bus, a non-articulated bus/truck would be able to enter a terminus stop or through stops, but articulated ones only through stops
12:50:01 <peter1138> Hmm, well, obviously the game knows this already.
12:58:57 <LordAro> i don't think that information is exposed to scripts at all currently
12:59:11 <LordAro> unless there's a way of querying individual station tiles i'm not aware of
12:59:23 <jessicathegunlady> su1phur: Anything is feasible. Just depends on what needs to be changed.
13:00:46 <jessicathegunlady> LordAro: Do terminus stops count as roads to a GS?
13:01:44 <jessicathegunlady> In that case, you can probably check if there's a road there.
13:02:39 <jessicathegunlady> If it does count as a road, maybe where it counts as having an exit is also accessible, and usable in a case like this.
13:03:08 <su1phur> jessicathegunlady: Nothing really has to be changed currently, since my idea right now is to do a Formal Analysis for Rail Timetables and Conflict Resolution using JGRpp, but that inevitably comes into contact with infrastructure
13:04:13 <su1phur> I could default all tracks into double tracked single blocks with each platform as a block but that would still be pretty intensive manually
13:05:00 <su1phur> So I'm thinking is it possible to determine how many platforms is accessible for a particular vehicle, and ideally how many blocks
13:06:17 <peter1138> LordAro, ah, well, nobody mentioned anything about scripts.
13:14:54 <LordAro> i meant to follow that up with "no way to know without looking either"
13:29:50 <peter1138> What are birds? We just don't know.
13:34:47 <kuhnovic> Nice feature talltyler . It is a bit hidden in the menu, maybe something can be done about that. But that can be a separate PR.
13:46:35 <andythenorth[d]> OpenTTD 16 is only 7 months away talltyler 😛
13:52:58 <talltyler> kuhnovic: Took your suggestion, hope that helps 🙂
13:53:00 <peter1138> Hmm, survey doesn't log baseset?
13:56:04 <talltyler> Thanks kuhnovic! ❤️
13:56:26 <talltyler> Looks like it's time for me to start a new island game...
13:56:58 <talltyler> If only devs were allowed to play OpenTTD...
13:59:43 <kuhnovic> Just summon your alter ego, 2SmallSkylar. Then it's ok 😉
14:14:22 <peter1138> I just increment my numbers.
14:24:15 *** Smedles_ has joined #openttd
14:26:15 *** Smedles__ has joined #openttd
14:27:27 *** Smedles has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
14:33:52 *** Smedles_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
14:35:55 <peter1138> Someone got their zoom levels mixed up?
14:39:24 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
14:42:42 *** Smedles__ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
15:01:17 <_zephyris> Love an island game, most of mine are
15:32:09 <peter1138> Do we just forget that freeform edges ever happened?
15:33:51 <LordAro> it does seem to have been a bit of a hack by today's standards
15:59:11 <LordAro> adding invisible void tiles and making the map smaller? imagine if someone proposed that today
15:59:42 <andythenorth[d]> Grf freeform edges?
16:00:19 <andythenorth[d]> Did we run out of “grf xyz” features yet?
16:00:32 <andythenorth[d]> Think they’re all done?
16:03:26 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
16:11:55 <jessicathegunlady> *I've got several new kinds of things I hope to do GRF support for, so-*
16:23:12 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
16:24:46 <peter1138> I don't think a reboot will support grf.
16:35:57 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
17:16:06 <andythenorth[d]> of your raspberry pi?
17:16:17 <andythenorth[d]> Train Whack! could support grf maybe
17:16:52 <andythenorth[d]> fricking gemini
17:17:05 <andythenorth[d]> is google over yet?
17:19:20 <jessicathegunlady> arcade game
17:29:13 <andythenorth[d]> ok what next?
17:30:57 *** coobies has joined #openttd
17:31:20 <jessicathegunlady> ...Why would we need water types for that?
17:31:47 <jessicathegunlady> Seems just like something that needs the worst code I'll ever write in my life.
17:32:20 <jessicathegunlady> ~~lava boats?~~
17:33:05 <peter1138> Seems more like lock-types to me.
17:33:24 <coobies> I guess that's what it is
17:37:26 *** Wormnest has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
17:49:41 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
17:52:44 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
18:05:16 <andythenorth[d]> pff when the energy use monitor is the main user of energy 😛
18:30:31 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:30:33 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
18:43:17 <andythenorth[d]> need a factor of 200 more 😛
18:43:29 <peter1138> I don't have enough NewGRFs to do that.
18:43:40 <jessicathegunlady> tfw 64 bit railtypes
18:43:59 <peter1138> Programmatically generate a railtype for every speed limit in 1 unit steps?
18:44:37 <jessicathegunlady> Oh hell yeah.
18:44:49 <jessicathegunlady> Need five monitors stacked on top of each other just to see the bottom of the list.
18:44:58 <peter1138> Should railtypes defined in different NewGRFs with the same label co-exist?
18:45:13 <andythenorth[d]> you see, that's the crux of it for me 😛
18:45:38 <andythenorth[d]> why are the UUIDs supposed to be
18:45:38 <andythenorth[d]> * interoperable
18:45:38 <andythenorth[d]> * but the semantics are ill-defined
18:45:45 <andythenorth[d]> I find it odd
18:45:57 <peter1138> Because there was only meant to be 16 rail types.
18:46:43 <peter1138> Defaults plus narrow gauge and 3rd rail is about the intention.
18:47:21 <jessicathegunlady> So, the division between different railtypes is based on functional differences?
18:47:58 <andythenorth[d]> that feature detection worries me 😛
18:48:21 <andythenorth[d]> but without it, pople are going to complain I break narrow gauge in other grfs
18:50:49 <andythenorth[d]> TL:DR same label, different grfs, yes?
18:52:43 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:53:05 <peter1138> Not sure what's going on there, perhaps they define a label and then don't set any properties for it.
18:53:15 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
19:07:15 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
19:16:27 <peter1138> Hmm, yapf_costrail.hpp:486-487 looks sus to me.
19:17:09 <peter1138> I'm not sure why it makes the assignment, instead of only using tf_local going forward.
19:18:30 <peter1138> It's not making a copy of anything, at least.
19:23:33 <peter1138> Oh, silly me. It's in a loop, so it goes back and reuses it.
19:36:12 <peter1138> I can has cheesecake?
19:47:40 <locosage> some kind of Squirrel evolution
19:51:22 <peter1138> Gaijin... name rings a bell.
20:12:21 *** Flygon has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
20:22:40 * andythenorth[d] reading Quirrel
20:22:58 <andythenorth[d]> swap a niche language for a niche variant of it? 👀
20:25:31 <andythenorth[d]> oh they're still making commits
20:41:14 <rito12_51026> Hi, is there any active discussion/thread on forum about the feature of rotating the camera, because the latest I could find is from 2010?
20:45:42 <andythenorth[d]> I can reprise all recent discussions
20:45:48 <andythenorth[d]> using my LLM-like capability
20:46:09 <andythenorth[d]> "can we rotate the camera?" -> not without redrawing all building sprites
20:46:29 <andythenorth[d]> it's a fairly primitive block on the idea
20:48:06 *** michi_cc_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
21:00:50 *** michi_cc_ has joined #openttd
21:06:06 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
21:06:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
21:13:05 *** tokai has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
21:14:50 *** michi_cc- has joined #openttd
21:14:50 *** michi_cc_ has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
21:19:11 *** dh1 has quit IRC (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
21:23:58 <_glx_> for single tile buildings it's easy to just rotate the building (so it still look the same) when the camera rotates, but good luck for multitile ones
21:45:06 *** keikoz has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
21:52:15 *** Extrems has joined #openttd
21:57:44 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC (Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.)
22:40:59 *** matteo is now known as amedeo463
22:47:38 *** Zathras_4 has joined #openttd
23:21:40 *** tony_pixel has joined #openttd
23:21:40 <tony_pixel> EXPLAIN, EXPLAIN, EXPLAAAIN
23:29:23 <peter1138> EXPLAIN ANALYZE SELECT * FROM bobby ;-- drop tables
continue to next day ⏵
