IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-09-08
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00:02:21 <audigex> I think that's where a new "made for OpenTTD as it's actually used in 2025" system would shine, though - things like voltages and speed limits would presumably be disable-able with a setting
00:03:08 <audigex> So you could either have a very realistic (speed limits, voltages, electrification types, funiculars, gauges) setup, or a very gameplay focused one (just a couple of types of electrification, maybe narrow gauge and metro at a stretch) depending on your settings
00:06:22 <audigex> Obviously I can only speculate on how it would be implemented, but I think everyone's aware that the game has a couple of different types of user, and would aim to accomodate both
00:34:31 <dh1> yeah i'd love some sort of separation between the rails and the rest of the cell
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00:54:59 <baricus> This feels like a silly question, but is there anywhere in particular that's recommended to look at in the code to get a sense for how the UI functions? I'm trying to add an entry to a dropdown menu of the main menu, and immediately got a bit lost in the `StringID` <-> actual button and effect from clicking on it.
00:55:19 <baricus> It looks like I'd need to go into somewhere in `dropdown.cpp`, but I can't find anywhere to bind actions there?
00:58:59 <_glx_> forget this file and just look at how any other window do it
01:05:22 <_glx_> first step is a list or an array of strings, then `OnClick()` calls `ShowDropDownMenu()`, selection of an item will trigger `OnDropdownSelect()`
01:27:46 <baricus> So if I'm modifying a dropdown, I'd need to find it's `"OnDropdownSelect` function to actually add a new entry (besides just adding a string to the menu itself
01:32:36 <talltyler> `toolbar_gui.cpp` is the place to look. 🙂
01:35:06 <baricus> ahh, I was in the right place originally then 😄 . Thank you both!
01:37:40 <talltyler> You may already be using this, but I quite like the MSVC “show all references” tool (I suppose any find all tool would work), used on a widget ID, to see all the places it’s referenced. Find a similar widget and connect the dots. 🙂
01:45:47 <baricus> Yeah, I had to get everything to index, but now that I have that it's working well! I just got lost in the layers of callbacks, since (it looks like?) it's all structured as arrays of widgets that are just indexed into to decide behavior
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04:27:28 <brickblock19280> audigex: This is currently the case so I don't understand what you would want changed
04:30:10 <brickblock19280> The only behavior missing if 14357 is merged would be the ability to copy the compatible and powered list from one railtype on to another one which would make it feasible to do what Andy wants to do.
04:40:31 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
05:43:42 <andythenorth> "Railtype Construction KIt (Pro)"
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06:10:54 <peter1138> Just add more railtypes?
06:11:07 <peter1138> What could possibly go wrong?
06:12:44 * andythenorth does the maths on "wrong"
06:13:17 <andythenorth> what's bigger than a dword, for properties? 😛
06:14:10 <andythenorth> 16 railtypes enough?
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06:16:30 <dh1> no faffin around trying to get different types of bridges, just is there a bridge here or not
06:16:45 <dh1> what type of railway is this? yes
06:17:36 <dh1> it was the great austrian architect adolf loos who said ornament is crime
06:36:04 <andythenorth> wonder how to support 14357 in nml
06:38:10 <andythenorth> * deprecate `track_type` which sets train prop 0x05, but leave it in place?
06:38:10 <andythenorth> * add `track_types` which sets train prop 0x34 and takes a list
06:41:08 <andythenorth> Yellow PURR obvs
06:41:21 <andythenorth> I find that keeping the menu open whilst scrolling is a bit fiddly
06:41:26 <andythenorth> maybe it's just because I'm old
06:42:05 <andythenorth> if only somebody would patch sticky menus
06:45:24 <andythenorth> but for lolz, which Coal wagon should you be using? 😛
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06:47:53 <fairyflossy> Coal Wagons are a mood thing, which mood are you feeling, that wagon you use
06:48:42 <fairyflossy> A shame that Horse is too big (or was it some other reason) that it can't have the random consist thing I was toying with
06:49:03 <peter1138> Letting authors control the sort order was lol.
06:50:26 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Add new prop, but don’t deprecate the old. Single railtype will still be the norm, why remove compatibility on purpose?
06:52:02 <andythenorth> only because it's an easier interface to recommend using `track_types` with list length 1
06:52:07 <andythenorth> especially for code generators
06:54:26 <andythenorth> but the patch would just be add prop 0x34 as a list of dwords
06:57:27 <andythenorth> peter1138: probably still too many? 👀
06:58:57 <peter1138> Yes, there's nothing to differentiate Railway and Highspeed Railway.
06:59:46 <andythenorth> I could just change it to Maglev
06:59:50 <andythenorth> and put train wheels on the bottom of it
07:00:04 <peter1138> Put a speed limit on Railway.
07:00:27 <andythenorth> I should do an exhaustive list of all the train grfs
07:00:36 <andythenorth> to find the appropriate value
07:01:18 <andythenorth> it's very important to remember that HSR is just rail, and the appropriate way to do it
07:01:23 <andythenorth> is to nerf the speed on rail
07:01:30 <andythenorth> and then make HSR unlimited
07:01:58 <andythenorth> all railtype grf authors: "HSR is just rail" -> includes HSR, nerfs rail speed
07:02:13 <andythenorth> no gameplay difference at all -> but nerf rail, for balance
07:02:24 <andythenorth> don't enforce gameplay on plays -> but nerf rail, because opinions
07:03:13 <dh1> has anyone considered putting higher speeds behind a paywall?
07:03:30 <andythenorth> and vehicle variants
07:03:35 <dh1> all rail limited to 70km/h until you buy openttd+
07:03:41 <andythenorth> and object multiple views
07:05:50 <DorpsGek> - Add: summary for week 36 of 2025 (by OpenTTD Survey)
07:07:05 <andythenorth> NuTracks solves it 😄
07:10:13 <andythenorth> hmm what if the pathfinder assessed speeds across n forward segments, then picked the most 'efficient' route?
07:10:25 <andythenorth> where efficiency is defined as 'closest to vehicle maximum speed'
07:18:23 <reldred> Nutracks needs to die already. So many better alternatives.
07:18:32 <andythenorth> most popular railtype grf
07:18:37 <andythenorth> might be a reason
07:18:51 <reldred> And Big Brother was the most popular TV show for a good long while
07:19:03 <reldred> Has no bearing on whether it’s any good or not
07:19:47 <reldred> Also, take it with a grain of salt, but I usually disable speed limits on track sets. Has no bearing on whether or not I build dedicated HSR though.
07:20:34 * andythenorth explores NuTracks
07:21:00 <andythenorth> ok so Advanced high-speed is 4* more expensive to build than the most basic tracks
07:21:08 <andythenorth> eh, so it's about economic min-max
07:21:25 <andythenorth> same as not building over farm fields
07:21:59 <kuhnovic> andythenorth: It seems to be doing that already. Yapf_costrail.hpp line 464.
07:31:50 <andythenorth> definitely adds something
07:32:02 <andythenorth> hmm frosch things
07:32:44 <peter1138> Okay but we don't have separate ground types at the moment.
07:34:22 <peter1138> Anyway, rail type grfs like to mess with base costs as well as the individual cost factor.
07:35:03 <peter1138> Things are a bit weird when you mix them.
07:36:17 <emperorjake> NuTracks is only popular because it's the oldest railtype GRF
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07:38:17 <fairyflossy> andythenorth: This seems funky. Would definitely require some kind of "copy from tile" option
07:45:30 <reldred> Ground types would certainly let a lot of sets drastically cut back on how many tracks they need, but in the meanwhile eh.
07:45:54 <reldred> I don’t think mixing rail sets should ever really be supported or encouraged outside of very very specific combinations.
07:53:52 <andythenorth> mixing them is *supposed* to work
07:54:00 <andythenorth> whether it does...is empirical
07:54:19 <andythenorth> but one clear idea was that players could add a narrow gauge grf, a metro grf, a maglev grf etc
07:56:15 <andythenorth> I thought basecosts were changed to be grf-scoped
07:56:24 <andythenorth> might have hallucinated that
08:00:39 <peter1138> Only vehicles, I believe.
08:02:23 <andythenorth> so if railtypes could split the label and the UUID, which established pattern is our favourite? 👀
08:02:23 <andythenorth> * classes, like cargo classes?
08:02:23 <andythenorth> * subtypes, like cargo subtypes?
08:02:23 <andythenorth> * variants, like vehicle variants?
08:02:23 <andythenorth> * views, like object views?
08:03:12 <peter1138> Why would you give them two unique identifiers?
08:03:38 <fairyflossy> andythenorth: Elaborate?
08:06:26 <peter1138> > It's too complicated and inflexible, let's make it even more complicated and inflexible.
08:13:27 <peter1138> I probably ought to sign in to Teams, again.
08:37:26 <reldred> I’m quite pleased big hole doesn’t use teams
08:39:31 <andythenorth> because the UUID is used to determine compatibility, and has semantics
08:40:09 <andythenorth> which means each railtype must be uniquely handled, there's no way of saying 'this is functionally equivalent to type X'
08:40:21 <andythenorth> I'm not saying it would be better 😛
09:05:01 <ahyangyi> ( In case one wonders, I wrote two comments but deleted one )
09:12:19 <peter1138> Coffee done, now onto the tea.
09:12:28 <andythenorth> I should have another coffee
09:14:23 <peter1138> Bah, still need a quick way to know when something isn't used without doing a full scan of the map :o
09:14:51 <andythenorth> can we have a registry? 😛
09:21:38 <peter1138> You can register your complaint in the registry. It's in the basement, behind the cistern in the toilet cubicle that's out of service behind a locked door that's hidden by a large filing cabinet.
09:41:34 <peter1138> `water_regions.cpp:167` Is ft properly initialised there?
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10:34:29 <peter1138> Does anyone know what possessed Smart to call their car the "hashtag one"?
10:40:10 <LordAro> looks like every other similarly sized EV
10:45:57 <FLHerne> emperorjake: I've stuck with NuTracks because the more 'modern' railtype grfs I've tried all seem to go for 'finescale' track graphics
10:46:26 <FLHerne> which look a bit better relative to trains, but make the track spacing on double-track railways looks weird
10:46:49 <FLHerne> there probably is a better alternative now but it works so eh
10:53:31 <andythenorth> track builder pro
10:53:43 <andythenorth> you can have all the railtypes you want, but only 64 on the map at once
10:54:04 <andythenorth> just load all the bananas railtype grfs in every game, by default 😛
10:54:29 <andythenorth> reprocess the grfs when uploading them, shard them into one railtype per grf 😛
10:55:39 <ahyangyi> Is Iron Horse a "railtype grf"? 😛
10:55:55 <peter1138> It has rail types in it, so yes.
10:56:48 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes, see my image at 07:39 BST.
10:57:36 <andythenorth> ahyangyi: as peter said
10:58:21 <ahyangyi> Everyone automatcally runs Horse then 😛
10:58:32 <andythenorth> no the railtypes would be sharded out
10:58:41 <andythenorth> although your idea amuses me
11:01:13 <andythenorth> hmm "only 64 on the map"
11:01:25 <andythenorth> then there can be min-maxing of railtype conversion
11:01:36 <andythenorth> and multiplayer gets a whole new level of competition
11:02:10 <andythenorth> GS could award railtype quota to companies
11:24:45 <andythenorth> or just pay 2 win DLC
11:25:06 <andythenorth> base game: 16 railtypes, buy a subscription to get 64
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11:33:51 <andythenorth> train style buy menu for railtypes?
11:34:08 <andythenorth> cost, compatibility, speed, etc
11:48:32 <peter1138> Hmm, inconsistency?
11:49:05 <peter1138> Most things require a selection to see the cost. Although there is the bridge selector.
11:52:57 <andythenorth> should have lunch eh
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12:11:57 <andythenorth> oof wonder if 'available trains' could have a button to open 'available tracks' pre-filtered to the railtype 😛
12:39:40 <FLHerne> tbh this all seems to be solving problems that very few people have
12:41:56 <audigex> "Very few people have" - newGRF authors complain about this pretty regularly? Considering we're the only ones really likely to run into most of it, that seems reasonable. Sure, most end-users don't directly notice it, but they get indirectly impacted by the fact we're wasting so much time understanding and working around the jank
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12:53:58 <andythenorth> It’s just a meta-game
12:54:20 <andythenorth> It’s not going to affect anyone’s KPIs 🙂
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14:14:21 <jessicathegunlady> I don't know what portion of the playerbase uses GRFs that would make this worthwhile, but having a menu similar to vehicle purchases for tracks would be a welcome option for me. It doesn't make much sense in vanilla, but for larger track GRFs, it could help a lot with organisation, and have the added bonus of being able to view maintenance costs. I'm not aware of this being possible in-game
14:14:21 <jessicathegunlady> beyond viewing how much you're paying for existing track already.
14:17:05 <peter1138> #14599 adds purchase cost, maybe that's not desirable.
14:17:56 <andythenorth> was it an accident that I left variant UI toggles in my silly mockup? 😛
14:18:19 <peter1138> Maintenance cost changes as the total place track pieces increases.
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14:22:39 <jessicathegunlady> Oh, so it's not consistent even on a per-tile basis?
14:33:06 <peter1138> If you have 100 track pieces and 100 in total, the cost factor will be 1100.
14:33:24 <peter1138> If you have 200 track pieces and 200 in total, the cost factor will be 3000.
14:33:28 <peter1138> So already non-linear.
14:33:44 <peter1138> If you have 100 track pieces and 200 in total, the cost factor will be 1500.
14:33:54 <peter1138> (Values are approximate.)
14:34:14 <jessicathegunlady> Ah, thank you for the explanation.
14:35:53 <peter1138> Makes it somewhat tricky to have a concrete maintenance cost in a 'purchase' list.
14:43:36 <jessicathegunlady> Yeah. I suppose in theory you could display how much placing the next piece of a given track would add to the maintenance costs, but tracks aren't usually placed one at a time, which hinders how useful a statistic like that could be.
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17:51:00 <andythenorth> could search railtypes eh
17:51:21 <andythenorth> someone did...things for Objects 🙂
18:03:43 <andythenorth> save my favourite railtypes?
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18:53:19 <zanooda2000> Bridges over water things are done, how about bridges over ~~other bridges~~ all kinds of depots?
18:58:09 <zanooda2000> andythenorth: ctrl+click to show expanded choise menu and a regular click to show simplified drop-down list?
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19:38:31 <squirejames> zanooda2000: bridges over everything
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20:52:55 <peter1138> 64x64 but never ending.
20:53:37 <andythenorth> neverending story
20:57:28 <peter1138> > npm: neatly packaged malware
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22:38:58 <squirejames> andythenorth: Trains getting stuck in the swamp of despair?
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