IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-07-25
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02:53:16 <bigyihsuan> Rau771viaGitHub: stations under bridges?
02:53:16 <bigyihsuan> does this mean bridges under bridges soon? :p
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04:47:33 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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06:09:34 <peter1138> bigyihsuan, I stuck with the wording yiffgirl used. Bridges-over-things is more common...
06:16:38 <reldred> Someone was working on bridges over bridges at some point
06:17:39 <reldred> But bridges over things is nice
06:17:57 <reldred> Custom bridgeheads from JGRPP would also be nice.
06:18:33 <reldred> And I have an idea for a very simple curved bridge in a similar manner to custom bridgeheads that would also be nice
06:22:52 <reldred> just turn that ramp into a corner piece like what jgrpp custom bridgeheads can do
06:24:43 <reldred> you can do this in jgrpp, but it would be nice to tighten it up a little bit
06:25:53 <reldred> tiles being the most important currency in openttd 🙂
06:46:07 <ahyangyi> I would like the ability for bridge newgrfs to provide foundation graphics for the alternative bridgeheads
06:46:15 <ahyangyi> Using baseset foundations is fine but not ideal
06:46:39 <ahyangyi> But anyways, there are huge pending pull requests with regards to bridges
07:02:55 <reldred> Yeah I'm happy just to see bridges over stations finally happening
07:12:16 <peter1138> I think my first step for that bridge PR is to implement off-map storage for bridges in a sane way first.
07:42:49 <andythenorth> signals on bridge ramps? 👀
07:43:19 <LordAro> andythenorth: i'm pretty sure that's a banned topic
07:43:38 <andythenorth> bridge **ramps ** though
07:44:24 <andythenorth> I don't think the long suspension bridge needs signals on the spans
07:45:00 <andythenorth> but grade separated junctions, the signal placement can be awkward
07:45:30 <andythenorth> ramp tile placement would add a lot
07:45:42 <andythenorth> probably pitchforks though
07:45:45 <peter1138> The main reason for signals on the spans is to maintain signal spacing for the OCD-inclined.
07:46:21 <peter1138> But I can't imagine anyone like that around *here*...
07:48:01 <andythenorth> I just can't see how it would work for UI
07:48:46 <andythenorth> the signal tool can't be applied to a bridge
07:48:55 <andythenorth> bridge isn't a tile
07:49:07 <reldred> In JGRPP you just click the bridgehead
07:49:42 <reldred> It’s not terribly complex
07:50:26 <andythenorth> but that doesn't build signals on each tile of the bridge
07:50:45 <reldred> Yeah it does the whole bridge in one go
07:51:12 <andythenorth> I don't think it's weird, but when I tried it, there was some trivial way to break it by turning a train around
07:51:16 <andythenorth> was some years ago
07:51:39 <reldred> Eh, I’ve not seen anything untoward about them in practice
07:51:56 <peter1138> Bridge edit mode :)
07:51:58 <andythenorth> tends to be that I can find "you're using it wrong" very quickly in JGRPP
07:52:20 <reldred> Like breakages get fixed
07:52:35 <reldred> JGR has a very quick turnaround time for fixing things
07:52:36 <andythenorth> this was more about me than JGRPP 😛
07:52:46 <andythenorth> I break nmlc a lot, and our work product
07:52:47 <andythenorth> I'd rather signal a whole bridge using auto-signal drag I think
07:53:01 <reldred> But some things are intended to be used in certain ways
07:53:16 <andythenorth> although electrifying a bridge is single-click on one of the heads
07:53:20 <reldred> What’s wrong with clicking the mouse once?
07:54:55 <peter1138> YouTube decided to put the live-instrument cover of Movin' On in my recommendations.
07:55:27 <reldred> How so? I click the signal button, I build a signal, the signal(s) get built
07:57:49 <reldred> God I can’t wait for custom company colours.
08:05:17 <peter1138> Now, where did I put that other code that showed conflicting colours...
08:06:18 <reldred> What I love about tropic climate, and I think it becomes more visually apparent when you replace its trees, is that different families of trees grow in different ways. Really is something we could do with more of in OpenTTD but I don't know how you'd even go about that.
08:09:09 <peter1138> Funny because I don't think there's anything in the code to do that.
08:11:48 <reldred> Yeah there is, it's the tropic weirdness with rainforests
08:12:03 <reldred> I've looked at it a bunch but not really thought what to do with it
08:12:11 <reldred> tropic technically has three biomes not two
08:12:20 <reldred> and the biomes determine the trees
08:12:46 <reldred> everything before the cactus is one biome, everything after the cactus is the other but I forget which is which
08:13:16 <reldred> I was looking at making a feature to allow more trees to spawn in the desert but couldn't think where to go with the feature.
08:13:29 <reldred> and then got distracted with something else.
08:17:00 <andythenorth> temperate also grows trees in groups
08:17:04 <andythenorth> was that intended?
08:18:12 <andythenorth> it might be coincidence, just random patterns that happen to cluster
08:19:17 <reldred> Oh yeah with the original tree placement algo you can get some horizontal banding of tree varieties, it's more apparently with larger maps than what you normally play though andy
08:19:38 <andythenorth> clear co-location there
08:19:45 <andythenorth> but might be cherry-picked evidence
08:19:48 <reldred> Yeah, if you zoom out enough you get a pronounced horizontal banding
08:20:22 <reldred> JGRPP has a few alternate tree placement algorithms that get rid of it but I kinda enjoyed it, just wished it was more irregular.
08:20:25 * andythenorth turns trees off again, as intended
08:28:14 <peter1138> The tree placer algorithm in vanilla only affects worldgen.
08:36:28 <reldred> Vanilla 14.1, you can still see the tropic tree clustering. Rainforests pick a certain range of trees, non rainforests get a different range
08:38:11 <reldred> If you click on a non rainforest set of trees it just says 'Trees' or 'Grass'
08:39:05 <reldred> bright green patch centre are the non rainforest ones
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08:42:46 <reldred> Horizontal banding doesn't appear to happen in 14.1 on the original tree algo though
08:46:48 <reldred> anyways, tropic is cool and people don't appreciate it enough
08:46:54 <reldred> thankyou for coming to my ted talk
08:47:58 <andythenorth> that is nice scenery though
08:48:09 <andythenorth> someone should make an industry set for it
08:48:19 <andythenorth> my tropic maps are in vanilla, so they're just flat
08:52:41 <reldred> live by cpt-k's heightmaps, die by cpt-k's heightmaps
08:53:06 <reldred> well, I will die if I keep cranking the height up on them so much
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08:53:14 <notluke2578> And fill the space in between with cpt-k’s maps
08:53:51 <reldred> tiles are the real currency, and I like to make them scarce
08:54:10 <reldred> though this map is a 1:4 aspect ratio and one half is much flatter and easier to build
08:54:26 <reldred> but if you want to connect everything you have to become a goat
08:55:05 <notluke2578> I prefer large mountainous islands as i find them to be the best challenge
08:55:59 <reldred> Yeah I alternate between longmaps like this and stuff like Meandering Islands which is my other favorite
08:57:58 <notluke2578> Virgin Islands I think was the last one I did
09:04:20 <peter1138> Main issue with tropic is the zones are defined purely by terrain height and water proximity.
09:05:50 <peter1138> Trees are split into normal and rainforest zones, but otherwise there isn't much different between them.
09:06:59 <peter1138> (Also coastal tiles appear to be rainforest, which might be a bug)
09:07:19 <reldred> Not all of them get turned into rainforest
09:07:59 <peter1138> There's a band between desert and rainforest that is normal trees.
09:08:01 <reldred> No, it does appear most if not all do
09:08:21 <peter1138> Once you're in the zone, they're all rainforest.
09:08:31 <reldred> Anyways, leave it alone, I like it 😛
09:09:03 <reldred> I'd need to get ttdpatch running and see what it looks like in vanilla
09:09:11 <reldred> been a hot minute since I last did that
09:10:26 <peter1138> TGP produces shit tropic maps tbh.
09:10:42 <peter1138> Well, because of the zones thing.
09:11:20 <reldred> Yeah, the behavior is vanilla, rainforest around coasts and above X height level.
09:12:31 <reldred> Does the same even on the desert 'half' of the map
09:13:10 <peter1138> TTD has better separation of desert and tropic zones.
09:13:39 <peter1138> So it's possible to have larger areas of normal trees because areas are not-desert and not-rainforest.
09:14:29 <peter1138> The clump in the middle is a large area of normal trees, the bottom is all tropical.
09:14:36 <peter1138> And it's not height-based.
09:15:51 <reldred> Yeah, you're right, tropic in regular TTD is a bit more nuanced than how it is in openttd atm
09:16:02 <peter1138> TGP made it height based, just like snow line.
09:16:25 <reldred> TGP nonsense notwithstanding, I don't mind how it's working in OpenTTD at least with heightmaps.
09:16:52 <reldred> But you also get this in TTD
09:17:11 <reldred> which in year of our lord 2025 i think people would call this a 'bug'
09:17:21 <peter1138> Looks like the changes that were made for TGP also apply for non-TGP maps, so that's annoying.
09:17:39 <reldred> Yeah, because the height rules etc. also apply to heightmaps
09:18:13 <reldred> and theres specific logic around getting rid of desert around shorelines, which has been extended a bit in jgrpp to allow changing the size of that band
09:18:56 <reldred> I don't hate how OpenTTD does it currently
09:20:53 <peter1138> I only get that if I terraform. Normal generation doesn't have any desert next to coast.
09:21:51 <reldred> was about 10-15tiles out from map edge on the desert 'half' of the maop
09:22:48 <reldred> I remember that some bizarre things can happen near map edges
09:23:05 <peter1138> Is it TTD or TTDPatch?
09:23:18 <reldred> a really old ttdpatch with an empty config
09:23:29 <reldred> like I wanna say a stable version
09:23:50 <reldred> basically bare minimum to get ttd to run on modern windows without registry, etc,
09:24:21 <peter1138> DOSBox + TTD, works for me.
09:24:37 <reldred> Yeah I don't have dosbox setup on this machine atm
09:24:57 <reldred> I'm running on my little subnotebook
09:25:15 <reldred> still don't have a desktop computer in my new house
09:25:24 <reldred> i have one chair, and a bed
09:25:28 <reldred> that's all of my furniture
09:25:53 <peter1138> Well, think you're hitting a TTDPatch bug, because that generation doesn't happen with DOS TTD.
09:26:21 <peter1138> Revive TTDPatch, let the old crew have their toys.
09:26:24 <reldred> nooooooooo I'm not writting assembly you cant make me
09:26:53 <reldred> i'm not setting up a ttdpatch compile environment again
09:26:58 <reldred> it's been literally decades
09:27:24 <peter1138> What ever happened to Josef...
09:27:35 <reldred> I wonder, I owe that man basically my entire career
09:27:49 <reldred> I dont think I'd be where I am now without him
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09:28:08 <asasnat> I'm surprised at how much TTDPatch can do, considering the way it does things
09:30:49 <asasnat> apparently in TTD, you cannot change terrain type for Arctic and Tropical climates
09:31:02 <asasnat> I guess it makes sense, considering the unique way in which those generate
09:33:41 <peter1138> Yes, those "difficulty settings" are masked out.
09:33:45 <reldred> you can in scenario editor, build more desert
09:34:09 <reldred> they have specific terrain gen rules in ttd for arctic and tropic
09:34:21 <yiffgirl> dh1: you may not believe me, but I actually took a train to get here.
09:34:40 <reldred> you took a train to get onto discord?
09:35:05 <reldred> you know you can just install it on your phone?
09:35:36 <asasnat> I wish I could take a train to get onto Discord
09:36:03 <reldred> i should catch some trains around here at some point, brisbane has some cool looking train lines
09:36:12 <reldred> but i bought a funny little black car
09:37:31 <reldred> they are building a fancy new train station down the hill from me
09:37:39 <reldred> I can sorta see the construction site from my kitchen
09:41:46 <peter1138> Are you driving the half-a-km into the office? :p
09:42:45 <reldred> Oh god no, and that's about 3.5km to the office.
09:43:41 <reldred> No, I've only been to the office a total of once in four weeks, on my first day. I spend all my time at their datacentres, one's near the airport in an industrial precinct about 15km away, and the other is 30km away in the opposite direction.
09:44:36 <reldred> I was hoping to get away with not needing a car at all up here and buy a little e-scooter to get tothe CBD office, but the job ended up being totally different to what I expected.
09:45:29 <peter1138> You could've lived in the suburbs...
09:45:56 <reldred> Yeah but then I'd either be walking distance from one DC and double the distance from the other
09:46:17 <reldred> now I'm basically situated in terms of transit time equal distance from both
09:47:01 <reldred> But I am in a suburb, just a suburb nestled in right near the CBD on the other side of the brisbane river
09:47:18 <reldred> was looking at apartments in the CBD but I got this a lot cheaper
09:47:50 <reldred> and if I do need to go to the HQ which I will soon enough it is walking distance.
09:48:09 <reldred> and there's room to park the volvo and the truck when I eventually bring them over.
09:49:02 <reldred> I'm happy with how it's turned out. Being a glorified DC technician is getting me a lot more active than I used to be working a desk.
09:49:34 <reldred> and I have little responsibility. just have to not break anything is all.
10:11:25 <peter1138> Hmm, so recolours are 256 bytes, RGBA recolours are 256 + 1024 bytes.
10:12:07 <peter1138> A 33^3 LUT (RGBA) would be 143748 bytes.
10:12:54 <LordAro> not a lot in the grand scheme of things
10:13:11 <peter1138> Hmm, did we remove all rendering capabilities on servers, or is it still an option you can get going?
10:13:14 <peter1138> LordAro, for one, no.
10:18:17 <peter1138> Anyway, CreateCompanyColourRemap() probably doesn't need to do anything on a dedicated server.
10:19:05 <peter1138> LordAro, there are 16 * 16 recolours for 2CC.
10:19:24 <peter1138> So 36.5MB if they are made into LUTs.
10:19:47 <peter1138> Unless it's quick enough to generate a LUT on the fly...
10:20:04 <peter1138> (Or just calculate on the fly, so it's not actually a LUT)
10:21:16 <LordAro> peter1138: still not all that much :p
10:21:30 <LordAro> but i guess starting to be notable
10:25:18 <peter1138> Hmm, we used 256KB for the 32bpp-to-8bpp lookup table.
10:25:25 <peter1138> But there's only one of them.
10:25:58 <peter1138> It's actually an 18bpp-to-8bpp lookup table, I guess :)
10:27:05 <peter1138> I remember looking to see if we could constexpr that lookup table too.
10:27:23 <peter1138> It was a bit much :)
10:32:14 <peter1138> LordAro, new chain arrived, this time including quick-link...
10:32:27 <peter1138> (Yes, I could've just bought a set of quick-links, but that's not the point.)
10:34:35 <reldred> ok back to cutting peoples faces in halfsword
10:36:34 <LordAro> peter1138: make a chain entirely out of quick links
11:44:42 <jfkuayue> If I can not get the car plate with `DD51 JNR` or `C62 JNR` I would not learn to drive at all.
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12:05:25 <peter1138[d]> So either a silver Hyundai, or an invalid plate.
12:24:37 <jfkuayue> Is there a "shorter" way to display a super-long group name or vehicle name better on the vehicle window, to make the window narrower?
12:32:30 <reldred> I use acronyms or shorthand to refer to towns on routes
12:32:44 <reldred> Otherwise yeah that’s exactly what you get
12:36:51 <peter1138> This is actually a little conceptual issue I've been thinking about—how wide should a widget be if we don't make it fit the full watch of the text?
12:37:11 <peter1138> We You can set an upper limit in scaled-pxeil
12:37:46 <peter1138> We can set an upper limit in scaled-pixels, but that assumes strings are roughly the same length in different languages. That especially falls down with CJK languages.
12:38:18 <peter1138> It also assumes the font sizes are roughly default, and from seeing some people's screenshots, that is not the case.
12:38:41 <peter1138> (Mainly seems to be CityMania players who go weird on that.)
12:40:07 <peter1138> Vanilla made some widgets have a fixed aspect ratio, so they good proportions regardless of interface scale and font size. So that additional dropdown button on the left of the caption bar stands out.
12:41:00 <peter1138> Equal-width widgets for things like the tabs of the vehicle info window are also a something that could be undesirable with some languages.
12:50:01 <peter1138> Those names also aren't going to be displayed probably in the group list.
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13:21:28 <peter1138> Why has this code stopped working :S
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13:24:09 <andythenorth> did you hit refresh?
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13:37:57 <kuhnovic> "Just build the station after you've built the bridge"
13:45:22 <peter1138> kuhnovic, nah, comments on PRs is the best way.
13:46:09 <kuhnovic> At least they don't get lost 🙂 the spam is a small price to pay
13:53:08 <_glx_> and tt-wiki is unresponsive again
14:01:38 <peter1138> Overbuild is apparently a word, but yes.
14:01:54 <andythenorth> hyphen-more-things
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14:15:09 <kuhnovic> You can have something that's overbuilt but that just means it's way sturdier than it needs to be
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15:27:59 <peter1138> Hmm, so bridge/station usability...
15:57:22 <peter1138> "Did I take off enough chain links?"
15:58:17 <LordAro> i miscounted and can't go into big-big without the whole thing locking up
15:58:25 <LordAro> luckily, not a gear i'm particularly want to use
16:07:01 <peter1138> I used it often, I know I shouldn't, but I do.
16:07:12 <peter1138> Anyway, I took off one too few, compared to the last chain.
16:08:05 <peter1138> Why is it so hard to 1) remember 2) count 3) get right?
16:12:12 <peter1138> Counted 54 outer links, which is actually 55 including the quick link so 110. New chain is 116, so I need to remove 3 outer links. Yeah. Something like that.
16:31:13 <peter1138> Should we made bridges adapt to things underneath them?
16:31:29 <peter1138> Instead of having obstruction checks.
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17:01:11 <LordAro> peter1138: seems reasonable to me
17:01:20 <LordAro> not realistic perhaps, but makes for less irritating gameplay
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17:24:55 <mnhebi> I wish the suspension bridges had alternate graphics for longer pillar gaps
17:25:18 <peter1138[d]> Technically they do.
17:25:46 <peter1138[d]> But that requires all parts of the bridge to be involved when drawing each tile to figure out where pillars can be placed and not placed.
17:25:59 <peter1138[d]> It's not impossible, but not entirely trivial either.
17:27:56 <peter1138> I don't know if all bridges do though.
17:31:35 <peter1138> Only the suspension bridges. :)
17:33:17 <peter1138> Now, why do the plain tiles with no building also require a bridge height of 2.
17:53:20 <_glx_> because station says so ?
17:54:15 <_jgr_> You'll probably have intractable sprite sorting problems with 1
17:54:57 <_jgr_> In particular when there's a vehicle in the station
18:01:08 <andythenorth> height 2 bridges are best anyway 😛
18:34:45 <peter1138> _glx_, of course :)
18:34:48 <peter1138> _jgr_, yeah, probably :)
18:36:43 <peter1138> _jgr_, btw, in jgrpp I may be reading it wrong, but it doesn't seem to apply the station axis to the rail station layout piece at station_cmd.cpp:1559.
18:39:24 <_jgr_> The axis is implicit in the layout number, which selects which pillar flags to apply, (or at least it was when I wrote this)
18:40:33 <peter1138> It's not at this point, the call to MakeRailStation at :1649 masks and applies it.
18:43:42 <_jgr_> That is after all the checks are done and the result is being written to the map array, though?
18:45:17 <_jgr_> So the constructing a bridge over an existing station path is probably wrong
18:46:30 <peter1138> In that case that layout is on the map already so it can just uses the stored pieces, so that is correct.
18:48:48 <peter1138[d]> Heh, blessed or blursed...
19:12:23 <peter1138> Bit odd with JP+ bridges.
19:12:33 <andythenorth> bridge constructor pro?
19:12:41 <andythenorth> multiple span types?
19:12:48 <peter1138> Seems to be glitching even without though.
19:17:06 <peter1138> I think some bridges just do a weird pillar layout anyway.
19:38:29 <peter1138> Master Hellish is writing .nut files :o
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21:46:30 <peter1138> Funny, everyone trying to chip in with how to loop through a scriptlist...
21:47:13 <peter1138> That it's taken him so long to get something working, and he's still not convinced, suggests we should improve that bit of documentation.
21:48:59 <peter1138[d]> These pillars are annoying 😦
21:49:13 <peter1138[d]> It is sorted correctly, I suppose, but.
21:50:18 <peter1138> Maybe not with a train in it. Hmmm.
21:56:28 <_glx_> looping through ScriptList is super simple, just a `foreach`
21:56:37 <peter1138[d]> Cos the pillar sprite looks like this :/
21:57:05 <_glx_> yeah pillar sprites are suboptimal
21:57:36 <peter1138> Didn't we add some custom sprites for pillars somewhere?
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21:58:30 <alpapilus> peter1138[d]: Wait isn’t this a jgr feature?
21:58:33 <peter1138> And... that constant exists, but isn't used anywhere.
22:04:17 <peter1138> Looks like r4430 stopped using them, maybe.
22:04:21 <peter1138> That's... a while ago.
22:04:52 <peter1138> Or at least it removed the tables that referenced those sprites, maybe not the drawing itself.
22:11:29 <peter1138[d]> Maybe I need to tweak the default pillar information, as that was designed for obstruction instead of occlusion.
22:12:52 <peter1138[d]> Load the sprites and analyze the pixels at runtime...
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22:17:21 <reldred> But I’m here for emotional support
22:21:27 <peter1138[d]> _glx_: He got stuck on foreach of a cargo list returning 0 for everything.
22:21:56 <peter1138[d]> Cos you need the key, not the value.
22:24:25 <peter1138[d]> Yup, but the viewers weren't helping. He tried that briefly but was focused on the v, not k.
22:24:58 <_glx_> v is useless without first valuating indeed
22:25:08 <peter1138[d]> So feels like our docs could explain a bit more.
22:32:31 <_glx_> for keys only there's the `for (local key = list.Begin(); !list.IsEnd(); key = list.Next())` version but I think main issue is the doc is split between API doc and wiki
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22:41:45 <locosage> btw, is it intentional that GSList::Valuate doesn't respect sorting?
22:43:15 <locosage> first thing that docs don't explain well about GSList is that it's not even a bloody list 😜
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23:43:25 <_glx_> hmm if sorted by key it should not change anything when valuating
23:46:28 <_glx_> ha valuate doesn't use the sorter at all, direct access to the keys `for (ScriptListMap::iterator iter = this->items.begin(); iter != this->items.end(); iter++) {`
23:46:50 <locosage> yeah, I actually noticed that by reading the code
23:47:18 <_glx_> makes sense though, since sorting can be affected by valuation
23:47:39 <locosage> it does something about not changing sorter while valuating though
23:51:33 <_glx_> changing sorter is theorically safe, but it's better to not allow any modification inside the valuator
23:53:50 <_glx_> so actual list implementation can change without breaking everything
continue to next day ⏵
