IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-07-13
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00:22:05 <rilled> How to start off writing newgrfs/gamescripts
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04:45:19 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
07:06:45 <_jgr_> There are three conversions which need to be fixed, not just that one
08:03:47 <andythenorth> I have broken strings in my savegame somehow 😛
08:03:50 <andythenorth> 'reloading grfs'
08:06:04 <yiffgirl> imagine if you got a news message every time you bought a vehicle
09:20:41 <FLHerne> belajalilija: frankly my experience is that all AIs yet created are way too janky to be presented as official, never mind set a good example for players
09:21:00 <FLHerne> (and that includes the original one :p)
09:21:48 <FLHerne> that's not really a criticism of AI developers, OTTD is such a complex game that it's a really hard problem
09:23:47 <FLHerne> wow the 15.0 beta changelogs are long - people have been busy!
09:37:46 <_zephyris> Don't underestimate the value of a very basic AI
09:38:07 <_zephyris> Remember, a completely new player doesn't necessarily know to connect towns, connect industries, etc.
09:44:26 <peter1138[d]> The default of 10 minutes between companies is a bit long as well.
09:45:45 <peter1138[d]> Easy: 2 AI / 6 months, Medium: 4 AI / 3 months, Hard: 7 AI / Immediate.
09:52:06 <peter1138[d]> Might be useful to at least prompt to download an AI when none are present on starting a game.
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10:19:22 <belajalilija> _zephyris: Exactly, not to mention the amount of really basic signalling mistakes players make, having an AI capable of doing a simple line with a track in each direction and an X junction at stations or a single track line with passing loops while keeping signals away from junction exists could be very good already
10:20:32 <belajalilija> I’ve seen new players struggle with things like full load orders or transfer orders too
10:22:33 <peter1138[d]> Not knowing that unload orders are special and shouldn't normally be used.
10:45:10 <locosage> Hm, that's an interesting point in general. Default AI should be good at demonstrating the game rather than just making money.
10:45:43 <locosage> coz making money usually means just going full air
10:47:24 <_zephyris> I can't quite remember the clean install process, but to me it'd be nice to get a basic AI, OpenSFX and OpenMSX along with OpenGFX(2). That's the content for a fully-featured open-source install which best replicates the original game.
10:48:00 <_zephyris> AI, sound and music aren't _required_ to play the game. So could be handled as a "would you like to" rather than "you need to", but would still be good to actively be offered on install.
10:48:46 <locosage> iirc it's different for website and steam version, steam one comes with graphics and music included
10:49:29 <_zephyris> [I should test out SimpleAI again, my memory is that it does a very nice job of point-point road, rail, air and water, including rail passing points.]
10:51:55 <_zephyris> There's an argument to come with a basic NewGRF too, trams jump to mind. Not enabled by default, but there so that if you go to the NewGRF menu there is immediately something visible that could be enabled.
10:52:27 <_zephyris> Same argument could be made for scenario, heightmap.
10:53:10 <_zephyris> More user friendly to be offered one option, and the online content button, than a totally empty list.
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10:57:19 <reldred> 'First run' new user experience, download a few heightmaps, download a tutorial GS, download a simple and cheerful AI that can demonstrate how to build trains, how to build depots, basic signals, etc, download a sample set of trams (you had one in OpenGFX2 right?). Auto download it all, auto enable it all.
10:57:35 <reldred> Basically just an extension of the 'you have no base set, do you want to download one now' dialogue
10:58:18 <reldred> I think that would save a lot of the questions people have when they get to discord
10:59:19 <_zephyris> My only disagreement with that is auto-_enabling_ trams.
10:59:39 <_zephyris> TTD came with scenarios, heightmaps, AI, music, sound. And ""It attempts to mimic the original game as closely as possible while extending it..."
11:00:24 <reldred> Yeah we get a lot of questions/confusion about trams though. I think it's good to keep it as seperate content that can be enabled/disabled, but I think theres some value in automatically enabling them for a first time user.
11:00:30 <_zephyris> (I know you'll point out confused reddit/discord comments about an inactive button)
11:00:36 <_zephyris> Lol, what you said.
11:00:55 <reldred> should the button be hidden entirely if no trams are loaded at all? Maybe.
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11:01:04 <reldred> Then people wouldn't even know about trams
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11:01:42 <_zephyris> reldred: Fair point.
11:02:01 <_zephyris> That's how it works for rail types, no vehicles no button, so why are trams shown?
11:03:19 <reldred> I think autoloading a basic tram set for new users would fall under the 'sensible defaults' kinda idea. The default settings of OpenTTD should 'show off' OpenTTD.
11:03:30 <reldred> and trams are part of that.
11:05:00 <kuhnovic> I fully agree. Trams are a lot of fun, we should showcase that a bit more.
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11:29:24 <_glx_> Maybe a placeholder menu item in tram dropdown
11:30:07 <_glx_> Or a message when clicking the button if no tram installed
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11:48:35 <peter1138[d]> Trams are just more restricted road vehicles 🤷
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12:29:29 <peter1138[d]> > make: *** No rule to make target 'baseset/ogfx2c_arctic_8.md5', needed by 'baseset/opengfx2_8.obg'. Stop.
12:29:33 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, what've I broken 🙂
12:42:11 <peter1138[d]> _zephyris: I notice OpenGFX 2 conversions mention "OpenTTD Windows palette", is that actually correct?
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14:42:00 <peter1138[d]> glx22viaGitHub: Not much I can do with this as I'm not an approver.
14:44:45 <truebrain> It sends me a mail reminding me I forgot .. so you did something 😄
14:50:23 <_glx_> #94 merged, no rebasing the other dependabot PR
14:58:11 <peter1138[d]> Yay I did a useful.
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15:21:07 <_glx_> so yeah something is "wrong"
15:26:39 <truebrain> Check the exit code 😉
15:27:14 <truebrain> `--quiet` is meant to show no output, but should be giving an exit code
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15:27:29 <jfkuayue> michi_cc: The rudest offense to Garry…
15:33:31 <_zephyris> peter1138[d]: Hmm, I think it's DOS now, I think I converted it to get the 5 extra colours or whatever
15:34:25 <_zephyris> peter1138[d]: ... or possibly fragile design of my makefile
15:34:43 <peter1138[d]> It is somewhat 🙂
15:35:07 <peter1138[d]> -j confused it at least.
15:35:24 <peter1138[d]> (It finished but didn't actually create any .grf file)
15:39:51 <_glx_> google says `if git diff-index --quiet HEAD; then` should work, I see this syntax everywhere, but it clearly doesn't
15:43:49 <_glx_> oh I see, the test is actually inverted
16:27:54 <FLHerne> <peter1138[d]> Not knowing that unload orders are special and shouldn't normally be used.
16:29:12 <FLHerne> I'd be interested to know why you think that, because I don't agree at all for most cargos - passengers might be an exception
16:30:13 <peter1138[d]> If a station accepts the cargo because of a nearby industry, you do not need an unload order.
16:30:14 <FLHerne> with cargodist, not having 'unload and leave empty' is quite prone to creating unexpected and unwanted flows
16:30:37 <peter1138[d]> If a station doesn't accept the cargo, then... you do not need an unload order, because it will just unload and sit there.
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16:34:19 <FLHerne> if you don't have an unload order, it won't unload and sit there, it'll carry on and mess up the other legs
16:35:27 <FLHerne> if I have messed up, I'd much rather have excess cargo sat in a station that has infinite capacity than my trains that don't have infinite capacity
16:37:24 <FLHerne> and at the destination station where it doesn't ruin the station rating and thus industry production, than at the origin where it does
16:38:23 <peter1138[d]> So your use-case is "my network is broken and my orders are broken, so i'd just like to dump it somewhere what it's not accepted"
16:43:11 <FLHerne> if the cargo graph is simple and the destination accepts cargo as expected then you can get away without it, but it costs nothing and is more robust to oversights so why would you not prefer it
16:56:38 <locosage> also, some engines carry passengers or mail so it's better to always force unload
16:57:09 <locosage> peter1138[d]: it's easier to fix that way
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18:58:12 <pickpacket> reldred: I agree about the trams. It's a weird thing to open your first map and there's a type of transportation that clearly exists but you can't build
18:59:06 <pickpacket> Do I have to have 8 bpp in a NewGRF or is 32 bpp only okay? And which colours from the 32 bpp palette are livery?
19:01:02 <locosage> you don't have to do 8bpp unless you want company colors to work
19:03:00 <locosage> doing company colors in 32bpp is kinda tricky as you need to draw both 32bpp image and 8bpp mask
19:03:26 <locosage> unless you do some sprite processing magic like bonky does with magenta hue
19:03:55 <pickpacket> uh, yeah. I read something about 8 bpp masks on the NML wiki, but I didn't understand it
19:04:10 <pickpacket> but it would be weird to *not* do company colours
19:06:52 <locosage> KST has a different approach by just using a custom palette and defining some colors for cc and 2cc
19:06:54 <peter1138[d]> For company colour in 32bpp graphics, draw ONLY the company colour parts in a separate 8bpp image. In the 32bpp part of the image where the company colour parts should be, draw solid grey at 128,128,128.
19:07:13 <locosage> but that also needs external sprite processing, can't do anything like that with nml only
19:08:00 <peter1138[d]> So the company colour part is still 8bpp, and only uses the 8 company colours. It should still be in the standard OpenTTD DOS palette.
19:08:52 <peter1138[d]> You *can* fiddle about with the solid grey to affect the brightness of the company colour, but unless you are really careful that gives a worse result than drawing the company colour parts "the old way"
19:09:14 <peter1138[d]> (You end up with the terrible zBase effect, where company colours are flat and look horrible.)
19:11:07 <pickpacket> locosage: oh, yeah, I've never figured out the 2cc livery thingy
19:11:35 <locosage> 2cc is same as cc you just use two special ranges instead of one
19:11:45 <andythenorth> one of the reasons I stopped using cargodist for freight is the requirement for 'unload' everywhere
19:11:56 <andythenorth> one extra tedious click for no real benefit
19:12:15 <locosage> no extra clicks in cmclient 😜
19:13:21 <_glx_> hmm but unload is implied in default order
19:13:38 <peter1138[d]> andythenorth: But... you don't need it 😮
19:14:32 <andythenorth> if the network doesn't create any backlinks && if non-stop orders are enabled by default (as they now are)
19:14:39 <andythenorth> then you don't need it
19:14:42 <andythenorth> otherwise you need it
19:15:03 <_glx_> default is unload if accepted and load available
19:15:20 <_glx_> and cargodist auto manages transfer
19:26:10 <andythenorth> I never have trees visible, but seems the game fills the map with them after a while?
19:27:19 <andythenorth> apart from around farms, obviously 😄
19:28:53 <belajalilija> The only problem with the KST method that allows for one sprite to essentially make 2 2cc options and a real livery is that if the real livery has 3 or more colours then one of those becomes permanent if you’re using company colours or not
19:29:49 <belajalilija> Luckily the 3rd colour tends to be something on the white- black spectrum
19:29:50 <locosage> I mean... we could add 3cc range and map that to something...
19:30:06 <belajalilija> So its rarely intrusive
19:30:32 <belajalilija> locosage: The idea is funny but we have much greater pressing issues xd
19:30:50 <peter1138[d]> What's a "KST method"?
19:31:27 <peter1138[d]> Kerbal Space Trogram
19:31:52 <belajalilija> peter1138[d]: I draw a vehicle with cc1 and all its details and then overlay the cc1 blue with cc2 green and other colours and the code makes sprites from that
19:32:30 <belajalilija> KST is just the label i put on anything I’ve made and it seems dP has adopted that so i am going with it
19:32:55 <belajalilija> It means kitchen sink team, coming from the fact that my train set is just a mix of countries
19:33:08 <locosage> belajalilija: worth mentioning you draw with cc colours but in 32bpp image and code takes care of everything else
19:33:55 <andythenorth> hmm these objects should probably be rotated views? 😛
19:34:15 <belajalilija> My set makes use of both variants and livery refits
19:34:45 <belajalilija> But livery refits are only used to toggle between 2cc, inverted 2cc or real colours
19:35:28 <belajalilija> Rather than having 2cc being locked behind a parameter as in RUKTS and Danish trains
19:36:17 <belajalilija> I don’t get the reference
19:53:42 <pickpacket> andythenorth: yes, please. Always more tea
19:54:50 <andythenorth> will we release 15.0 ever do we think? 🙂
19:54:55 <andythenorth> or straight to 16.0?
19:56:04 <Rubidium> potentially neither? When we try to some GitHub action throws another wrench in the works
20:08:43 <_glx_> let's ignore #93 for now
20:14:53 <_glx_> I can add you to the team if you like
20:15:58 <_glx_> only 2 people can approve my PR 🙂
21:11:03 <_zephyris> peter1138[d]: Interesting, feel free to chuck up a bug report.
21:38:15 <_glx_> now all PRs need rebase 🙂
21:46:32 <pickpacket> Where are we at with versions? I play on some month-old nightly atm.
21:48:19 <andythenorth> "time well spent"
21:56:38 <peter1138[d]> Well, nightlies are generally updated... nightly, as long as there are commits and the deployment works.
21:57:26 <peter1138[d]> If you're talking about releases, I refer the honourable gentleperson to the question issued approximately 2 hours ago.
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