IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2025-01-23
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00:34:24 <liquidsnake0123> LordAro: Yoo thank you. I had to change a fair amount of files but I got it working π
01:31:23 <_glx_> ah was an already known problem (it's just a little worse now)
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06:38:29 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: dwords eh π
07:59:30 <andythenorth> ok badges...can we do words as sprites?
07:59:35 <andythenorth> hmm not translatable
08:00:25 <andythenorth> I want to drop the `(small)`, `(medium)`, `(large)` suffixes
08:00:34 <andythenorth> but they're not easily represented by an icon
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08:20:39 <andythenorth> the worst thing about variants is
08:20:55 <andythenorth> ~some people have no restraint and used it to add 10k vehicles~
08:21:35 <andythenorth> no the worst thing is the shenanigans around 'but I need to special name handling for group headers'
08:23:05 <andythenorth> pff what if it was just either
08:23:05 <andythenorth> (1) a player preference about some combination of words and badges for group headers
08:23:05 <andythenorth> (2) a new action 0 static string for 'if has children'
08:23:05 <andythenorth> (3) a player preference that includes showing the new action 0 string (or not)
08:23:23 <andythenorth> the name callback is ok, but it's 25% of Horse code
08:46:33 <_zephyris> S/M/L is pretty language independent
08:46:58 <_zephyris> But you might need more pixels than 1x zoom to fit them in nice small, medium and large circles π
08:53:47 <peter1138> Yes, persistent storage slots are 32 bit values.
09:03:09 <andythenorth> _zephyris: what about actual concentric circles? π
09:03:16 <andythenorth> dot, middle circle, outer circle
09:11:06 <Rubidium> just have one icon with three different sized objects, with three variants where two of the objects are lighter than the other. It's wider than it's high, right?
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09:16:28 <peter1138[d]> One reason I did the default badges with SVG is so that they can be scaled down to a small size and still be relatively readable.
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09:19:22 <_zephyris> How's the SVGs at sprites going?
09:19:40 <_zephyris> However it goes, using SVGs in my spriting pipeline is working nicely.
09:20:51 <peter1138> Main issue is that SVG with any level of detail are usually much larger than bitmaps, especially at the sizes we use.
09:22:12 <andythenorth> Rubidium: yes, this could work
09:22:38 <andythenorth> hmm not sure where Twin fits π
09:22:44 <andythenorth> maybe it doesn't matter too much π
09:27:15 <peter1138> Can the game just go by the vehicle length? (Articulated callbacks excepting...)
09:29:30 <pickpacket> hmm. I just joined the discord server. Not sure I want to be there; discord is slow and bloated and I'm on enough servers there already. Is #openttd-development the only channel bridged to irc?
09:34:08 <xarick> discord is useful, except when they throw down ads
09:39:35 <wensimehrp> _zephyris: ε°δΈγ倧π΅
09:40:33 <Heiki> and somewhat confusingly this channel is named #openttd on IRC but #openttd-development on Discord
09:43:48 <ahyangyi> wensimehrp: Means "Redd White", but that only adds more confusion π
09:45:48 <wensimehrp> The characters in the name literally means small, medium and large
09:49:52 <ahyangyi> Names in the game are full of untranslatable puns :S
09:50:03 <Rubidium> though why do you want to add a small/medium/large distinction in the first place? A medium sized American car is large for European standards... Or even worse, a large containership from 50 years ago would probably be considered small by todays standards; so will you start the game with only small and end with only large?
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10:08:44 <andythenorth> Rubidium: Naming the sizes makes autoreplacing easier
10:36:10 <peter1138> pickpacket, stay away. It's demoralising.
10:36:26 <pickpacket> peter1138: really? In what way?
10:36:34 <pickpacket> are people negative?
10:37:04 <pickpacket> well, you're here too. I think I'm inoculated by now
10:37:31 <peter1138> I wish I could post images as easily here though.
10:38:43 <pickpacket> *that* is the thing that would make me choose discord over irc if I didn't host a thelounge.chat instance
10:40:05 <peter1138> But yes, S/M/L is kinda odd in Iron Horse.
10:40:21 <peter1138> Is it based over time?
10:43:42 <andythenorth> only in a minor way
10:44:00 <andythenorth> and it's got no gameplay effect either - there's no 'correct' size to choose
10:44:06 <andythenorth> both of these seem to trip people up
10:48:59 <ahyangyi> Sometimes I need to use a combination of different sizes to hit a certain whole number length though
10:50:52 <andythenorth> ahyangyi: maths happened to you? π
10:56:49 <peter1138> So, is WidgetDimensions (unscaled/scaled) a success?
10:58:32 <andythenorth> MBP badge as easter egg?
11:06:45 <florafex> andythenorth: don't the small carriages end up providing a bonus to cornering speed due to how that's calculated, or does horse do something to offset that?
11:09:04 <ahyangyi> andythenorth: Does trial-and-error count as math?
11:11:36 <talltyler> If you donβt need to filter by size (using the text filter to type βsmallβ, etc, why not just let players use their eyes to see how long the sprite is, rather than reading a badge?
11:12:45 <peter1138> florafex, that bug got fixed.
11:13:07 <florafex> well today i learned :p
11:13:13 <florafex> ive been making my trains much more segmented than they need to be!
11:13:56 <peter1138> Not sure if it was since 14.1 or not.
11:16:19 <andythenorth> talltyler: because when using auto-replace there's no vertical comparison in the left side panel
11:17:55 <andythenorth> human brain struggles with size comparison visually
11:18:54 <talltyler> I wonder if the autoreplace interface could have a βsame length onlyβ filter, if itβs a common problem
11:19:13 <peter1138> Articulated callbacks.
11:19:47 <talltyler> Maybe beside the wagon removal button, since they serve the same goal
11:20:28 <talltyler> Gah, articulated gets in the way yet again π
11:21:09 <peter1138> (And of course cargo subtype refits)
11:22:32 <xarick> > [CalculateCoverageLine st] 18113 us
11:22:32 <xarick> > [CalculateCoverageLine mt] 5242 us
11:23:38 <peter1138> All those Byte values stored in DWords :)
11:23:47 <peter1138> Just one that isn't.
11:24:08 <peter1138> Okay, so I simplified by variable-size persistent storage patch.
11:24:49 <peter1138> No longer uses an unordered_map, nor a vector of index/value pairs. Just a simple vector.
11:25:39 <peter1138> Oops, silly reviewer :(
11:25:53 <pickpacket> xarick: is there a GSAbridgedBridge?
11:32:27 <peter1138> Don't link to Discord images, it will disappear shortly.
11:36:22 <andythenorth> peter1138: I could write a byte stuffer
11:36:26 <andythenorth> for 'efficiency'
11:36:34 <andythenorth> or just use...masks π
11:36:49 <peter1138> No, it'll use more CPU at the expense of a tiny bit of RAM.
11:37:06 <peter1138> (And currently ALL PS is 256 entries, even if you don't use them.)
11:37:29 <peter1138> So it'll just use more CPU for no reason :)
11:37:39 <andythenorth> pretty certain I could drop the size suffix
11:37:46 <andythenorth> and put it in as extra info instead
11:37:56 <andythenorth> hmm, vertical grid lines? π
11:38:53 <andythenorth> vertical grid lines exist, eh π
11:41:20 <andythenorth> or I could put them in the buy menu sprite π
11:42:08 <peter1138> I recommend not doing that, but the game could?
11:42:30 <peter1138> That would completely break when authors force left alignment, or force right alignment...
11:42:38 <peter1138> (You're doing it wrong, see...)
11:42:48 <talltyler> Authors should stop doing that π
11:43:13 <peter1138> Badges should help.
11:43:40 <peter1138> With badges, a lot of the time a custom purchase menu sprite might not be needed at all.
11:44:47 <andythenorth> although I think mostly I've managed to stop generating buy menu sprites
11:44:53 <andythenorth> except for articulated vehicles
11:46:10 <reldred> peter1138: One can only hope π
11:47:00 <reldred> Though I see a lot of potential wins just in being able to read badges in various places <a:eyesshaking:833706919465058355>
11:47:25 <andythenorth> oh buy menu sprites for articulated vehicles *could* be done with layers π
11:49:00 <talltyler> I guess buy menu grid lines could always be opt-in for vehicle sets, similar to the 32 px buy menu width property
11:49:21 <peter1138> Opt-in for users, honestly.
11:49:44 <talltyler> Ctrl-Shift in buy menu, like the cargo sprite overlay?
11:50:22 <talltyler> (Speaking of which, I think that could actually just be Shift, since we use that for estimating, but Iβve already approved that PR)
11:54:15 <andythenorth> vehicle length on hover? π
11:55:45 <andythenorth> anyway, I think I can drop those sufixes
11:56:48 <andythenorth> and we're keen to drop power type suffixes?
11:59:22 <andythenorth> I can maintain them in the extra text
11:59:40 <peter1138> What do colour swatches come under?
11:59:56 <peter1138> Do they come under anything?
11:59:58 <andythenorth> I don't know what Peterer has in mind, but players could have a choice of what appears in the buy menu, and what in extra text π
12:00:07 <andythenorth> let players deal with it per client
12:00:29 <peter1138> Hmm, operator logos, liveries, etc?
12:00:39 <peter1138> Hmm, an operator logo could have multiple liveries?
12:00:45 <andythenorth> what about actual swatches π
12:00:49 <andythenorth> as another fearture
12:01:06 <peter1138> In which case colour is just a "non" livery?
12:01:22 <andythenorth> FWIW, Horse treats recolours as 'liveries'
12:01:30 <peter1138> livery: BR Swallow, livery: random colours, livery: 2cc
12:01:35 <andythenorth> built on top of a creaking set of assumptions dating back to ctrl-click liveries
12:01:40 <andythenorth> I hate my code, but eh
12:01:47 <peter1138> I think it makes sense to treat colours as liveries...
12:05:03 <andythenorth> I did a spec and a drawing once
12:05:06 <andythenorth> can't find it π
12:05:22 <andythenorth> it would have extended company colour liveries
12:05:30 <andythenorth> with grf-defined liveries, as a new grf feature
12:05:36 <peter1138> Okay, that is something completely different, unrelated to badges.
12:05:47 <andythenorth> not even a side quest
12:05:57 <andythenorth> it just bugs me I can't find the image
12:06:05 <peter1138> Hmm, I really should've been making proper branches of these changes because I've fiddled with DrawTileSprites many times :p
12:06:47 <peter1138> But no, company colours are for companies and their property, not for specific vehicles.
12:07:15 <peter1138> RGB CC covers basically anything, but, uh...
12:08:10 <peter1138> Do I want this pasty hot or cold?
12:08:18 <peter1138> It's a Ginsters so it's never going to be great.
12:10:32 <andythenorth> peter1138: it's probably potato/potato
12:10:57 <andythenorth> oops discord I can't use you properly
12:17:53 <peter1138> I stole the dice idea from somewhere...
12:18:31 <peter1138> The 2CC swatch is an... awkard one.
12:19:31 <andythenorth> hmm maybe I can use coloured dice to show all the colour options
12:19:44 <andythenorth> I was just going to do a row of squares
12:19:57 <peter1138> Dice was just there. It's probably not the best idea.
12:20:03 <andythenorth> swatches get a bit...awkward yes
12:20:43 <andythenorth> hmm 7 random colour choices
12:20:52 <peter1138> And the extra text says "Livery: Random based on second company colour"
12:22:07 <peter1138> When you CI fails with Segmentation fault (core dumped)
12:22:50 <peter1138> "Random based on first company colour" doesn't imply any specific colour, I guess?
12:23:17 <peter1138> Oops, moving slots is buggy now :(
12:23:54 <talltyler> Why didnβt you use the wagon attach callback to avoid players attaching bulk wagons to a Deltic? π
12:24:14 <peter1138> Uh... no it's not. It's working. Why was it awkward the first time :S
12:24:18 <talltyler> (I think thatβs a Deltic?)
12:26:31 <andythenorth> someone should fork Horse
12:27:50 <pickpacket> andythenorth: ... because..?
12:28:46 <peter1138> Should he have implement badges into vanilla OpenTTD?
12:28:55 <peter1138> Then we could have a whole spec around NewBadges.
12:29:38 <peter1138> Someone would name their NewGRF newbadges and people would get confused.
12:30:10 <peter1138> (Definitely not pointing at newcargo.grf)
12:31:03 <pickpacket> andythenorth: beautiful β€οΈ
12:31:15 <andythenorth> talltyler: but also
12:35:57 <peter1138[d]> Uh, found a bug.
12:40:54 <_zephyris> peter1138: I like vanilla badges, showcase the feature
12:42:04 <andythenorth> replace vanilla trains with grf
12:42:09 <andythenorth> hmm no, that doesn't work
12:43:07 <peter1138> The country flags don't really belong for vanilla vehicles I think, but will be in the default badges.
12:43:16 <peter1138> (If we include default badges, which we should...)
12:43:36 <peter1138> Steam/Diesel/etc, is kinda a no brainer.
12:43:59 <peter1138> Does removing the (Steam) or (Diesel) part from the names count as rewriting history?
12:44:45 <peter1138> Also toyland has "Choo-Choo" and "Diesel" (instead of "(Diesel)")
12:44:54 <pickpacket> andythenorth: if you haven't had lunch yet now is definitely time
12:45:51 <ahyangyi> peter1138: Are we going to have a Choo-Choo badge?
12:46:08 <andythenorth> peter1138: let's make a buy menu text configuration saver
12:46:31 <andythenorth> optional columns, with option to show text (if available) or icon (if available)
12:48:17 <andythenorth> macOS Finder config
12:48:25 <peter1138> This is... different.
12:49:13 <pickpacket> peter1138: I think that looks good
12:49:49 <peter1138> If you turn off the badge, then you no longer know.
12:49:53 <peter1138> (Except in the extra text)
12:52:49 <pickpacket> hmm. I wonder if and why someone would turn it off
12:56:38 <peter1138> Part of the reason for having it a game feature is to have it as an anti-feature. The ability to turn it all off.
12:56:53 <peter1138> I've posted screenshots of why before, I wonder if they are still around.
12:57:32 <pickpacket> would be nice to not have the "(Steam)" or "(Diesel)" suffices on some trains
13:01:15 <peter1138> Different sets from different authors.
13:01:51 <peter1138> Badges will prevent that going forwards, though I can't fix what's already been done.
13:07:19 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe we could do the extra string thing.
13:07:35 <peter1138> So "(Diesel)" can be appended or something
13:10:30 <LordAro> andythenorth: i like how i don't actually need to click on that link
13:12:27 <xarick> i'd like an open without newgrf support
13:12:37 <xarick> but that's asking too much
13:12:55 <peter1138> Just don't load any NewGRFs.
13:14:50 <LordAro> i'm pretty sure the only OTTD without newgrf support was 0.1
13:15:01 <andythenorth> newgrfs are terrible though
13:15:15 <andythenorth> they prevent trams being in the game, right?
13:15:24 <andythenorth> and steam engines with tenders
13:17:53 <peter1138> Well, authors do what they can given the tools, so if it's bad it's our fault.
13:19:00 <andythenorth> diligent, but not 100% true π
13:19:15 <andythenorth> some authors are just reprobates
13:19:36 <andythenorth> `<tal:switches repeat="counter range(127, 0, -1)">
13:19:36 <andythenorth> switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, switch_var_41_but_badges_not_ids_position_in_vehid_chain_from_end_multiple_ids_${counter}, [
13:21:55 <andythenorth> what is for lunch?
13:29:33 <andythenorth> chicken and brocoli, yum
14:18:27 <xarick> a river starting in the desert... not sure what to feel about it
14:18:42 <talltyler> I have never seen a disconnected river, have you done something else to cause that?
14:21:06 <xarick> I did nothing out of the ordinary
14:22:15 <xarick> this one was spotted in a bug report because at that time, the max_search_nodes was infinite
14:22:30 <xarick> and it was causing huge stalls
14:29:23 <xarick> there's other disconnection cases I detected, one is about two rivers merging
14:29:58 <xarick> the terraform causes closure of the other river
14:31:28 <xarick> and the other is where I have trouble figuring out a fix, terraforming between segments could accidentally disconnect the river
14:31:49 <xarick> because the terrain constraints are so difficult
14:32:06 <xarick> i wasn't able to come up with something simple
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14:41:34 <xarothbrook> xarick: You're removing Subterranean rivers?
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15:12:47 <budgetmich> andythenorth: What? No. Maybe you have one that does that, but that is not a feature of NewGRFs as a class (indeed, some greatly expand the selection of trams).
15:50:34 <andythenorth> I missed 'base game'
15:50:58 <andythenorth> why aren't trams in the base game -> because newgrf
15:51:52 <LordAro> it's as much of a "because otherwise the devs would have to design new vehicles" as well
15:55:29 <talltyler> And open the door for endless discussions about "balance" that we can instead farm off to GRF authors
15:56:34 <pickpacket> Actually... Maybe the base game shouldn't contain any industries or vehicles at all???
15:57:02 <talltyler> If anyone has a problem with those they can take it up with Chris Sawyer
16:04:13 <andythenorth> was it naptime though?
16:04:33 <LordAro> andythenorth: i went and talked about bikes with my colleague
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17:13:36 <andythenorth> so I can ditch `Red/Pink` and friends
17:14:11 <andythenorth> so fewer name callback switches stuffing registers
17:14:18 <andythenorth> for the text stack
17:14:33 <andythenorth> but `More...` seems to be helpful
17:14:47 <andythenorth> and `Rock Hoppers` vs. `Rock Hopper` might be valid
17:30:20 <peter1138> Okay, I don't have a way to apply badges to vanilla vehicles other than by NewGRF, which in turn makes it a copy of the vanilla vehicle.
17:34:28 <andythenorth> maybe have lunch, and see if inspiration strikes?
17:36:38 <Rubidium> peter1138: you currently don't have a way, or there isn't a way? Can't it be put in EngineInfo? But not copy it when it's used by a NewGRF
17:40:40 <peter1138> Mainly BadgeID vs string labels.
17:41:01 <peter1138> Although I guess a std::span of std::string_view would work.
17:42:23 <peter1138> I'm not sure how desirable it is to apply badges to default things, and then badges can be applied to more things than engines, so what else should we do...
17:45:30 <Rubidium> the real question is, should badges of default things be used for whatever they're based upon. If you just want to change some stat with your NewGRF, then you might want to want that but when you completely revamp it you rather not. If you add badges to default engines, that's something to make a decision about. Without badges both cases are the same
17:48:20 <peter1138> I think for compatibility they can't be used.
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17:50:35 <andythenorth> not using them is a zero pitchforks count
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17:51:06 <LordAro> gah, GNATCOLL.JSON has changed underlying implementation in v25 so that object keys are sorted alphabetically rather than insertion order
17:52:58 <LordAro> never mind that json object orderings were always implementation defined and shouldn't be relied upon, i was, dammit
18:09:37 <andythenorth> pff insertion order is rather hard to resort to π
18:09:41 <andythenorth> unlike alphabetical
18:14:50 <andythenorth> have you considered complaining? π
18:15:31 <LordAro> someone's already tried
18:18:18 <pickpacket> LordAro: maybe they didn't do it right? You could try too
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18:29:16 <peter1138> Well, my latest branch can be deleted then.
18:29:52 <peter1138> Mine is more extensive than #13367
18:34:12 <andythenorth> right what am I badgering next?
18:34:21 <andythenorth> hmm but I have to do parent helping at scouts π
18:35:08 <LordAro> andythenorth: do you know how to tie a bowline knot?
18:35:40 <andythenorth> I know how to prevent 12 year olds climbing onto things they shouldn't and jumping off
18:35:44 <andythenorth> which is the main task
18:36:37 <peter1138> $ git branch | grep zero less-zeroed less-zeroed-memory remove-zeroed remove-zeroed-network-handler windowdesc-zeroed zero-width-space zeroed-memory-no-idea
18:36:42 <andythenorth> probably not π
18:37:14 * LordAro 's scouting experience was quite significantly towards the "jumping off things they shouldn't" and "running into people at full speed in the dark"
18:39:20 <Rubidium> peter1138: yeah, just push your branch I'd say
18:47:14 <peter1138> One of those side-quest that keeps getting side-quested.
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18:50:49 <peter1138> Pretty sure I've got patches for the rest too.
18:51:28 <peter1138> Remove: ZeroedMemoryAllocator is no longer used.
18:51:33 <peter1138> Date: Fri Jun 16 13:22:13 2023 +0100
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19:42:02 <andythenorth> Lol I have to teach scouts knots
19:42:17 <andythenorth> I donβt know knots
19:47:14 <johnfranklin> are scouts still a thing now?
19:55:52 <andythenorth> johnfranklin: There are about 40 here
19:56:32 <LordAro> i can see why parents are required :p
19:58:48 <johnfranklin> oops, I remember seeing some guided children at clifton suspension bridge yesterday... :/
19:59:19 <johnfranklin> but not as many as 40
20:00:54 <belajalilija> johnfranklin: Very much so
20:20:36 <peter1138> When should vehicle persistent storage be writable?
20:21:29 <peter1138> Should there be a new callback to do so?
20:23:48 <andythenorth> Industries can write in any cb I think
20:27:00 <peter1138> If you like desyncs, that's perfect.
20:28:58 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe the PersistentStorage Mode fixes all that.
20:33:38 <peter1138> Okay, if I remove my feeble attempt at making it readonly...
20:33:54 <peter1138> Anyway and all desyncs will be fun?
20:37:33 <peter1138> 10670 is "quite old"
20:54:40 <frosch123> peter1138: Considering ConsistChanged(), there is a special order in evaluating properties. Persistent storage should be at the same level as the user_def_data.
20:55:21 <frosch123> So either writable in Cb36 userdefdata, or a new callback
20:59:39 <peter1138> Yeah, I guess I shouldn't really listen to andy here :p
21:00:22 <frosch123> They could also be writable along the random triggers. In case people want to write them in stations during loading.
21:01:19 <frosch123> But that would also be a new callback.
21:01:23 <peter1138> One concern is authors using it to vary other things that shouldn't be changed outside of a depot. Which is always going to be a thing anyway...
21:01:39 <peter1138> /* Update user defined data (must be done before other properties) */
21:02:04 <peter1138> Logically it makes sense to do it alongside that.
21:02:13 <frosch123> Yes, some newgrf use the userdefdata I'm cb36 for other properties
21:05:34 <peter1138> Okay, Allowing it to be written only during CB36-Prop25 seems almost reasonable.
21:05:49 <peter1138> But, road vehicles, ships and aircraft.
21:06:00 <peter1138> (Less likely to need it, but still...)
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21:07:01 <peter1138> And there's no consist changes to trigger a rerun. Hmm.
21:08:31 <frosch123> Maybe a new cb, run before userdefdata, is smarter
21:09:53 <frosch123> Oh... consistchanged is also called on clients individually. So unless the registers are reset everytime, it can still desync
21:11:04 <peter1138> Okay, I've put my read-only selector back in :)
21:11:33 <frosch123> A new callback could be called specifically on construction/consist-rearranging/station-leaving with extra info in var10/18
21:32:21 <andythenorth> think I need a blanket
21:34:12 <truebrain> You are just too slow
21:34:19 <truebrain> and I even used more words!
21:35:02 <LordAro> and watching Furze dig a tunnel
21:35:18 <andythenorth> we did a bunch of things with CF
21:35:38 <andythenorth> the tie fighter, some of the other stuff
21:36:00 <LordAro> i remember the tie fighter
21:36:10 <LordAro> ...why were you involved? :p
21:39:01 <LordAro> pulled everyone together, i guess?
21:40:08 <andythenorth> pretty much, I wasn't personally involved my cofounder did most of it
21:40:33 <andythenorth> we did some other fun stuff, Mr Weebl, The Stig David Coulthard
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22:29:33 <truebrain> I need an AI to translate that π
22:31:50 <LordAro> if nothing else i'd be tempted to leave the issue open with the view to improving the cmake output
22:32:26 <LordAro> there's no reason to check for xaudio2 outside of windows, and that breakpad message has bothered me since it was added :p
22:33:25 <truebrain> You know where our code is π
22:33:42 <truebrain> But maybe reword the issue to reflect your intent
22:33:46 <truebrain> Or create a new one
22:33:50 <LordAro> might even have a look at it
22:34:23 <truebrain> (Or ofc just fix it π )
22:36:25 <LordAro> truebrain: woah now, let's not get ahead of ourselves
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22:44:17 <xarick> "one change at a time"
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continue to next day β΅
