IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-04-29
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03:22:25 <johnfranklin> wow, road waypoints are being added to trunk 😄
03:53:35 <bootmii> Are there TTD-style graphics for them?
03:53:56 <bootmii> Gotta be a significant percentage of the community using DOS graphics
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04:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno about "style", but there are certainly sprites to augment the TTD graphics with the new features
04:36:53 <kamnet> bootmii: It will be default bus/truck drive-thru graphics
04:40:25 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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05:34:28 <LordAro> all new sprites are done for original_windows graphics set first, that's how the game is implemented
05:35:21 <LordAro> (ok, maybe ogfx sprites are drawn first, but original have to be implemented first)
06:53:30 <andythenorth> we could probably have dedicated waypoint sprites
06:53:40 <andythenorth> not sure what they'd be but eh
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07:08:25 <emperorjake> In JGRPP they're just a small sign like this, I expect it would be the same in vanilla
07:12:30 <quantom2> Did you mean that waypoints finally would be awabilive in OpenTTD vanilla?... That's sounds incredible good!
07:12:33 <DorpsGek> - Add: summary for week 17 of 2024 (by OpenTTD Survey)
07:17:09 <andythenorth> emperorjake: ship that 😛 looks fine
07:49:30 <kuhnovic> More data to confirm that we can easily toss NPF :p
07:50:35 <kuhnovic> peter1138: Add a hidden ctrl+f option like we do with everything else (I am kidding)
08:03:46 <LordAro> hmm, does survey not record which graphics set is currently in use?
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08:17:04 <kuhnovic> NewGRF usage doesn't seem to be recorded either
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11:58:47 <peter1138> Does a croissant count?
12:00:49 <LordAro> long, but a really good watch
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13:24:53 <peter1138> Me using C-style comments in C#...
13:46:02 <peter1138> "Maybe I can simplify this"
14:04:55 <audigex> LordAro: Pretty interesting, I liked "Is this a good way to write a virus? Yes"
14:04:55 <audigex> Although he could probably have just used Java 1.3 😂 old but functional even on Win95. I'm a C# guy these days but there's something to be said for old school Java being insanely portable
14:07:25 <peter1138> That does entirely miss the point of the video 🙂
14:11:00 <audigex> I know, just interesting to consider the fact you can still write modern-ish Java for a 19 year old OS without having to do any hacking
14:12:04 <audigex> Like you lose a lot of the modern "syntactic sugar" stuff but be able to write something surprisingly similar to Java
14:15:09 <FLHerne> it's curious that substantially more survey players have altered npf_{rail,road,water}_curve_penalty than are actually using npf
14:18:18 <audigex> Tbf I just tend to go through the setting and adjust everything to whatever seems more likely that I'd enjoy it. Most players probably don't know anything about pathfinders and so wouldn't know it doesn't affect them
14:19:59 <_jgr_> Players being advised to change pathfinder settings to silly values used to be a bit of a thing
14:20:25 <_jgr_> I'd expect much of it is just remnants of that
14:20:51 <audigex> I think the first time I saw that I assumed it would slow trains down in curves so I reduced it
14:26:26 <merni> hm, why are 4-6% of people using original acceleration model 🤔
14:27:14 <peter1138> The non-original model is cheating, for sure.
14:27:53 <audigex> No such thing as cheating now, innit
14:28:57 <merni> peter1138: it's called "realistic" 😆
14:29:17 <peter1138> The forbidden word.
14:31:51 <merni> Also is there any particular reason why Colour Names are Capitalised while other setting options are not?
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14:55:56 <peter1138> Mixing SetWidgetsDisabledState and SetWidgetDisabledState is annoying.
14:56:00 <peter1138> Maybe we should fix that.
15:12:08 <peter1138> Quantity not quality.
15:20:00 <peter1138> Are objects slope-aware?
15:29:29 <talltyler> Some are, some build on foundations, some should build on foundations but instead show holes to the void
15:29:39 <talltyler> (Because of incorrect coding)
15:35:58 <peter1138> Yeah, "use the view index to pick the slope" instead of "use the slope to pick the slope"
15:37:21 <peter1138> But this guy churns out so much stuff and probably doesn't realise there's a better way to do it.
15:37:57 <peter1138> (Like, even if slope wasn't available, the better way would be to make it available :))
15:39:24 <peter1138> Still, nearly ready to PR this lot.
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16:24:38 <asasnat> merni: funnily enough, it doesn't even behave like the original TTD model from what I've seen
16:25:26 <asasnat> in the original TTD, trains can go through 90* turns with zero slowdown but screech to a halt when going up a slope
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16:30:00 <peter1138> What's different from that?
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16:32:38 <peter1138> > if (_settings_game.vehicle.train_acceleration_model == AM_ORIGINAL) return max_speed;
16:32:57 <peter1138> Might be bug, as it's meant...
16:34:47 <asasnat> peter1138: from what I've seen, original acceleration model, all turns (even ones that would cause no slowdown with real acceleration) cause the train to slow down
16:35:12 <peter1138> Yeah, seems like it. That code says it shouldn't. So... bug?
16:37:48 <asasnat> might be something to do with diagonal wagons being longer than orthogonal
16:37:51 <asasnat> highly doubt it though
16:38:00 <asasnat> since realistic accel handles this fine
16:38:04 <peter1138> Absolutely unrelated.
16:46:39 <peter1138> (They do slow down in TTD)
16:48:19 <pickpacket> Is there a way to colour code tracks? 😅 My map is getting a bit messy...
16:48:24 <asasnat> from the one playthrough I've seen, they don't
16:48:46 <asasnat> although maybe only conventional track locomotives are affected
16:48:52 <peter1138> From the one game of TTD I just loaded up in DOSBox to test, they do.
16:49:19 <asasnat> well, I only have access to the demo on archive.org so
16:50:16 <peter1138> Ah yes, because the full thing is definitely not found there as well...
16:52:52 <peter1138> Yeah, I was confused, the max speed is relevant, but not the only factor.
16:57:15 <asasnat> asasnat: at laest it'd be nice if TTD gave me fuckin speed values
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17:44:34 <LordAro> can probably drop py3.7 builds now
17:45:53 <kuhnovic> peter1138: Yesterday you mentioned the case where you have two text fields and you would ideally want to be able to focus on both of them using a hotkey. What if we change the default hotkey to ctrl+f instead of f? Then you can cycle through the "focusable" widgets using the hotkey.
17:46:19 <kuhnovic> We somehow seem to always select a default hotkey that interferes with regular typing 😛
17:55:31 <peter1138> Yeah, Ctrl-F works, but, breaking tradation. Hmm.
17:58:12 <kuhnovic> peter1138: Yeah, difficult
17:58:38 <peter1138> To be honest, F always felt a bit weird 🙂
17:58:49 <kuhnovic> I also wonder how many people know about it
17:59:14 <peter1138> And it's also overloaded for the order list window.
17:59:29 <kuhnovic> We do have a lot of single-character hotkeys, so it's not that weird in terms of consistency
17:59:44 <truebrain> Steam down to 65% .. I am kinda surprised how many people play OpenTTD outside of Steam 🙂
18:00:40 <peter1138> Maybe we can just search all filters to Ctrl-F, then it's consistent.
18:00:51 <peter1138> And Ctrl-F is not exactly radical for find.
18:02:21 <kuhnovic> I think that would be good. People will complain because it's a change, and change is bad 😛
18:03:09 <LordAro> i'd be tempted to say that we should have a hotkeys window before making any radical changes
18:04:11 <michi_cc> Well, copy/paste is Ctrl-C/V and not just C/V either, so there's precedence for Ctrl in text shortcuts anyway.
18:08:44 <kuhnovic> I'd say that in general there seems to be a strong preference to use Ctrl for almost everything 😛
18:09:19 <truebrain> people like to be in control, so to say! (mwhahaha, bad puns, mwhahahaha)
18:10:34 <kuhnovic> Haha wow, next level!
18:14:28 <kuhnovic> I think TrueBrain just returned from the company drink
18:14:51 <truebrain> You will never know!
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18:18:05 <truebrain> and I still can't make a VM on my Oracle Cloud account
18:18:09 <truebrain> I really picked the wrong region
18:20:26 <peter1138> Region locked like a DVD
18:20:45 <truebrain> LordAro: the survey does collect which graphics set is in use, and NewGRFs etc. But it is currently not published. I first need to make sure it gives a fair representation, before people start to say: THIS SET IS MORE POPULAR, and that non-sense 🙂
18:21:06 <truebrain> so I wanted more data first 🙂
18:21:16 <peter1138> Like we care about fairness 😄
18:21:25 <peter1138> Look how unfair the title game competition was 😉
18:21:42 <truebrain> Yeah, sorry, let me just assign you ownership of all NewGRFs 😛
18:21:46 <truebrain> (hihi, sorry, bad joke)
18:22:18 <michi_cc> Ranking every NewGRF is one thing indeed, but a simple used/not used would already be quite nice.
18:22:29 <truebrain> anyway, there should be enough data now to process NewGRF (and base-set) .. now to find time to do that 🙂
18:22:29 <merni> truebrain: Why? People who've been playing openttd before steam would probably continue to get it the old way
18:23:10 <merni> Personally I have a laptop not good enough for the vast majority of steam games so I don't see the point
18:23:21 <truebrain> michi_cc: no, it is more that I wanted to be sure we process surveys correctly. See, if we misrepresent a setting, nobody is going to be emotional about it. But when we misrepresent NewGRF usage, it might trigger some people
18:23:42 <truebrain> just wanted to be cautious 🙂
18:23:54 <michi_cc> Survey will also not show all the poor sods on a Linux distro that is "stable" 🙂
18:24:13 <truebrain> merni: Your reality doesn't define mine; and in mine, I was surprised 😛 Not sure what is the "Why?" question there 🙂
18:24:21 <merni> michi_cc: well, unless they install manually :P
18:24:33 <merni> truebrain: I was trying to understand your reality :P
18:24:44 <andythenorth> all reality is mine TBH
18:24:46 <truebrain> by substituting it with your own? 😛
18:25:04 <truebrain> too bad; most likely a better place
18:26:41 <truebrain> michi_cc: or did you mean an actual: "newgrfs used"? As the topic was base-graphics 😛 So I might have been put on the wrong horse there 😄
18:27:30 <michi_cc> Yes, just a simple: anything at all used or not.
18:27:39 <truebrain> owh, I could have done that, yes
18:27:49 <truebrain> for base-graphics it is: 100% yes
18:27:51 <truebrain> I can tell you that 😄
18:28:20 <michi_cc> Perfect sanity-check regression data point 😛
18:28:31 <truebrain> all the NPF settings are already that 😄
18:29:43 <truebrain> was NPF removed already?
18:30:06 <truebrain> funny how < 0.2% has NPF active, but yet 1.6% have that setting different
18:30:21 <merni> might be some server, or as JGR said earlier some cargo-cult advice
18:30:39 <truebrain> just means that 1.4% is being silly 😛
18:30:47 <truebrain> I do wonder how old some of the config files are
18:30:54 <truebrain> sadly, not really a way to track that
18:30:54 <merni> I can imagine a server admin just randomly specifying that setting and carrying the same config through for years
18:41:50 <truebrain> if a NewGRF is reported as "disabled", does that mean it is installed client-side, but not active in that game?
18:46:08 <truebrain> there are games with over 110 active GRFs ...
18:49:20 <truebrain> with JGRPP it is even worse .. I don't think these numbers are correct ...
18:49:40 <truebrain> it is telling me almost nobody plays JGRPP without NewGRF
18:49:53 <truebrain> but worse, the #1 NewGRF count is 165 NewGRFs
18:50:07 <andythenorth> Disabled is the grf feature where it disables on load?
18:50:14 <truebrain> ah, makes more sense, tnx
18:50:39 <truebrain> _jgr_: would you consider this realistic for JGRPP?
18:54:31 <truebrain> (based on seconds played, to be clear)
18:56:41 <peter1138> That's all GarryG's object grfs 😉
18:57:24 <talltyler> Or a popular server, maybe?
18:57:27 <truebrain> this one is for you michi_cc 🙂
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19:04:21 <_jgr_> truebrain: Seems reasonable, my personal game at the moment has 88, the JGR servers from this discord have about 150
19:04:28 <truebrain> you guys are weird 😛
19:04:35 <truebrain> k, tnx, as I couldn't find what would be wrong with my code 😄
19:05:39 <_jgr_> I can't say that I'm surprised that there are hardly any JGR players not using GRFs
19:06:00 <_jgr_> I'd expect players to experiment with GRFs long before they get anywhere near my branch
19:10:05 <kuhnovic> You make it too easy for them 😉
19:11:19 <truebrain> that #12593 might be meant well, but boy, it is condesending
19:12:25 <kuhnovic> Lost in translation? Or is that too ironic?
19:21:09 <truebrain> I like it; so I stole it 😛
19:21:58 <truebrain> it is just cute, that if you support 15 different plural system, someone comes with: did you know not all systems work like English. Shocking right? Well, let me tell you about it 😛
19:22:06 <truebrain> definition of mansplaning 😄
19:22:30 <_glx_> yeah and we should really support moving string parameters 😉
19:25:26 <truebrain> I like the steps to reproduce btw; pretty sure I won't see anything wrong 😄 😄
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19:27:02 <truebrain> ah, no, seems the plural-system is correct, he is just not aware of `{P}` it seems
19:28:00 <truebrain> the post is just confusing, tbh 😛 First it links to explaining the plural-system, but then it is states Basque has singular/plural
19:28:08 <truebrain> which is currently the one used
19:29:11 <truebrain> so I am not sure anymore I made the right conclusion in my summary
19:29:12 <_glx_> the args example is weird too
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19:29:16 <squirejames> truebrain: Myself, I installed again via Steam, and then put JGR over the top of it, and run it through Steam
19:29:37 <squirejames> I've been playing OpenTTD since the earliest versions, and TTDPatch and TTD/TTO before that
19:30:16 <_glx_> oh seems like it's a language with different plural form depending on use
19:31:40 <truebrain> who wants to learn Basque? 😛
19:35:25 <peter1138> > 33 files changed, 1672 insertions(+), 1721 deletions(-)
19:35:31 <peter1138> Such "deduplication"
19:36:39 <peter1138> 0, 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 etc maybe?
19:36:56 <truebrain> Feel free to create a PR for that 😛 😛 😛
19:37:21 <truebrain> Similar issue with resolution btw
19:38:50 <truebrain> `STR_PASSENGERS :{COMMA}{NBSP}bidaiari{P "" ak}`
19:38:53 <truebrain> I am now even more confused
19:39:20 <truebrain> they delibrately did it wrong?
19:39:46 <_glx_> by trying to understand the message, I think it's similar to hungarian and turkish
19:40:36 <_glx_> the plural string is valid when no number is used with it, but with number it should use singular
19:41:21 <_glx_> ```Hungarian does not appear to have a plural if you look at sentences involving cardinal numbers. For example, “1 apple” is “1 alma”, and “123 apples” is “123 alma”. But when the number is not explicit, the distinction between singular and plural exists: “the apple” is “az alma”, and “the apples” is “az almák”.```
19:41:26 <truebrain> but that string explicitly has a number in it 😛
19:41:46 <_glx_> yup, blame the translator then 🙂
19:42:22 <truebrain> `Basque has three numbers: singular, unmarked and plural`
19:45:40 <michi_cc> truebrain: I would have actually expected more than 52% for no.
19:46:17 <truebrain> This is why numbers are awesome 😄
19:50:17 <frosch123> i am quite imprssed that the second most often is "1"
19:50:31 <frosch123> i only ever see people who can't get their mouth full enough
19:51:12 <andythenorth> 16 sticks out a lot
19:51:45 <_glx_> so really the issue is Basque is set to `##plural 0` while it should use another one
19:52:18 <frosch123> isn't "unmarked" more like a gender?
19:52:44 <frosch123> in some contexts amounts use plural forms, in other they don't
19:53:17 <frosch123> hmm, possible rather a case than a gender
19:54:18 <frosch123> but all speculation... we only have catalan developers. i do not know of any basque
19:54:23 <_glx_> ```For example, in Basque we have singular (1) and plural (>1) numbers, but the words accompanying the numbers aren't plural, but indefinite.``` (from the issue) seems not easy to understand
19:55:26 <truebrain> frosch123: but the cases wikipedia mentions, we support
19:55:37 <truebrain> as we have strings where the quantity is part of the translation, and those where it is not
19:56:09 <truebrain> seems more the translator is just unfamiliar with our system, and was like: gettext good, this bad
19:56:32 <frosch123> the latter part was very clear :p
19:57:28 <truebrain> we looked into gettext more than once, and the conclusion has always been the same 😛
19:57:32 <truebrain> but it was recently mentioned again 😄
19:58:07 <truebrain> _glx_: ghehe, that link of the post is even in our Discord 😄
19:59:45 <_glx_> main issue when translating openttd is knowing the workarounds 🙂
20:00:17 <_glx_> like in french we have male/female, but I added a third one for specific cases
20:01:09 <truebrain> haha, you made `l'` a case? Nice 🙂
20:02:23 <_glx_> le train (m), la voiture (f), l'avion (m) but with how sentences are built with {G} it was easier to get a third gender
20:03:38 <truebrain> right, seems passengers is the only "wrong" case in Basque
20:03:44 <truebrain> other cargo don't have `{P}`
20:03:50 <truebrain> which seems to be the expectation
20:04:35 <_glx_> often the strings miss context, which can make translating harder
20:04:54 <truebrain> yeah, but if I understand this right, when there is a number, it should never have this `ak` in Basque
20:05:00 <truebrain> so that is wrong even without context 😛
20:05:18 <_glx_> yup that's how I understand it too
20:05:28 <truebrain> ghehe, almost no `{P}` is used in Basque, except for the few cases mentioned in the ticket 🙂
20:07:39 <michi_cc> Just make sure nobody invents a language with plurals rule as "clear" like asian money number formatting 😛
20:08:42 <truebrain> but okay, worst case, we need to add a new plural system to catch this 3-system 😛
20:09:27 <truebrain> owh, true, so it shouldn't be an issue at all
20:10:15 <truebrain> or if we have `{COMMA}` and `Passenger` somewhere as two strings we draw next to each other, we have something to fix in our code 😛 But I am sure other languages would have complained long before 😄
20:10:47 <_glx_> yeah because it would be wrong for many of them
20:11:24 <_glx_> and that's why we have {CARGO}
20:12:23 <_glx_> (comma + type) in a single command
20:13:02 <truebrain> I was looking at the other mention, `3 tones of livestock`
20:13:07 <truebrain> but we don't measure livestock with tones
20:13:09 <truebrain> `STR_QUANTITY_LIVESTOCK :{COMMA}{NBSP}item{P "" s} of livestock`
20:15:44 <_glx_> I use {NBSP} a lot in french, due to typographic rules requiring a space before `:`, `!`, `?`
20:16:06 <truebrain> I hope frosch123 doesn't punish you for it in `nile` 🙂
20:16:30 <frosch123> no, i am well aware of weird french
20:17:01 <frosch123> when belgians speak your language, you should be worried
20:17:48 <frosch123> do i get double points?
20:18:00 <_glx_> oh they speak german too, that makes 3
20:18:27 <frosch123> do they? they are not luxembourg
20:18:49 <_glx_> for sure I know they have french and dutch
20:18:49 <truebrain> okay, I sort-of have a design for nile editor, I just need to put it together 😛
20:19:13 <truebrain> but I am thinking on putting all the strings on the left, categorized by their state (missing, outdated, ...)
20:19:17 <truebrain> which you can open and collapse
20:19:26 <frosch123> "A small German-speaking Community, making up around one percent of the population, exists in the East Cantons."
20:19:26 <truebrain> and normally you would go through them from top to bottom or something
20:19:35 <truebrain> and then a search above it, for you to filter it
20:19:49 <truebrain> hmm, typing this out is useless, I just have to write it 😛
20:19:53 <_glx_> 1% speak german according to wiki
20:20:09 <frosch123> haha, for once it's not me, who did not read backlog
20:20:38 <truebrain> what are you referencing?
20:21:26 <_glx_> and it was me not reading the backlog
20:21:56 <truebrain> owh, he is already considering 2 lines earlier a "backlog"
20:22:07 <truebrain> so basically frosch123 is saying: I never read anything written more than 1 sentence ago?
20:23:21 <truebrain> do you need to be able to see all cases constantly, of is seeing the current case sufficiently for translation?
20:24:10 <frosch123> only a subset of strings needs cases
20:24:27 <truebrain> I know; so I was thinking about putting them behind a tab
20:24:31 <truebrain> so each case in their own tab
20:24:43 <truebrain> but that means you can't see the translation of another tab
20:24:44 <_glx_> and a "add case" button ?
20:24:54 <frosch123> yes, but the tab should have some indicator, whether the case is present or empty
20:25:10 <truebrain> I like what _glx_ says
20:25:16 <truebrain> only have tabs of cases that have something
20:25:22 <truebrain> and a `+` to add a new case
20:25:39 <truebrain> but I was more worried that you might want to see the other cases while translating one
20:26:47 <frosch123> try without, see whether someone educates you about the importance of cases
20:27:05 <truebrain> does save a lot of screen space 🙂
20:27:16 <truebrain> on the left I also want to keep a "history", strings you have looked at recently
20:27:22 <truebrain> so it becomes easy to jump to another string, and back
20:27:52 <truebrain> on the right I want to show all strings, and their translation, so you can look at similar strings easy
20:28:03 <truebrain> and something like: if you double-click a word in the English string, it auto-searches that for you
20:28:28 <truebrain> or maybe some heuristic to do that anyway .. but at least optional, so you can search yourself too
20:28:37 <truebrain> need to experiment a bit with what works and what doesn't 😄
20:31:56 <truebrain> right, tomorrow we attempt to make this in React 🙂
20:43:49 <truebrain> Lol, only now I realise you can't actually search in eints? Lol
20:45:16 <_glx_> you can but only in main page with all the strings
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20:57:42 <peter1138> When you search from begin to begin, nothing is found. Who knew!?
20:58:37 <frosch123> do we have ranges yet?
20:59:00 <peter1138> No, clang-15 does not support them.
21:01:44 <frosch123> hmm, i see, cppreference says clang needs -fexperimental-library
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21:38:23 <peter1138> Unused strings, of course.
21:38:41 <peter1138> No doubt a few size_t warnings 🙂
21:49:03 <peter1138> Ooh, the Dedicated build has something to say.
21:53:32 <_glx_> no precompiled headers, but it looks like missing stdafx.h
21:56:53 <_glx_> oh blame auto insertion of includes 🙂
21:58:17 <_glx_> not the first time it puts stuff before stdafx.h
22:02:44 <peter1138> /me blames his tools
22:04:47 <peter1138> The header is at least required this time, sometimes it's not 🙂
22:19:16 <peter1138> Hmm, the object window's old tooltip is a bit awkward.
22:19:26 <peter1138> "Ctrl+Click+Drag to select the area diagonally"
22:19:48 <peter1138> But you don't Ctrl+Click+Drag on the button with that tooltip itself... that's for the viewport.
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22:21:37 <silent_tempest> Dumb quick question: Removing an uneeded function call is "Remove" or "Cleanup"?
22:22:04 <peter1138> I think Remove would be something like "Remove NPF"
22:22:21 <peter1138> Or "Remove block signals"
22:22:32 <silent_tempest> Yeah I was thinking remove should be something actually going away. But just wanted to double check.
22:22:52 <peter1138> Technically it is, but if it doesn't affect anyone...
22:23:03 <silent_tempest> "It shouldn't" Lol
22:32:16 <rau117> PeterNviaGitHub: Maybe also add the ability to search by tags? (well, and add ability to add tags in NML). Now you can’t just go and find something like “stone enbankment” without scrolling through all the rows, especially if you haven’t scrolled through all the groups to set «saved» and «used».
22:34:24 <peter1138> I would say that would need to be a separate change, given that it requires changes to the NewGRF spec and NML and then needs NewGRFs to be updated to support it, which won't happen for a while.
22:35:09 <peter1138> Authors don't even name the individual types very well, so I wouldn't expect them to set up tags as well.
22:40:51 <rau117> Hmm... maybe then add the ability to search by the names of these types?
22:41:51 <peter1138> You mean like I implemented in the PR?
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22:42:59 <rau117> a… oh, didn't notice the main thing
22:44:29 <peter1138> I didn't demonstrate it I guess.
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23:18:19 <peter1138> Hmm, I wonder how to tell who has interacted with an oil rig...
23:19:03 <peter1138> (taken the industry's cargo from the non-owned stations)
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continue to next day ⏵
