IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-04-13
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04:40:34 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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06:37:58 <truebrain> we really have to work on our commit messages 😄 More than one describes what the commit diff already tells us, and doesn't tell anything about what is actually fixed 😛
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08:23:54 <truebrain> hmm, add LLM support to translator tool to give suggestions? 😄
08:42:55 <peter1138> > I got a Bluescreen playing 14.0-RC3. Never get bluescreens otherwise.
08:44:08 <reldred> It's the NSA spyware 'survey'
08:44:21 <reldred> I actually got a warning against my steam account for that
08:55:15 <truebrain> lol .. so eints tells me "latin" has at most 579 untranslated strings .. but when I count, I get to 763 ..
08:56:06 <truebrain> clearly I was not looking right
08:56:10 <truebrain> eints tells a higher number
08:57:24 <merni> Oh right, you gave me commit rights in that repo... I could've fixed it myself :P
08:57:38 <truebrain> yeah ... as the amount of nitpicking being done in that post is getting to me 🙂
08:57:40 <truebrain> which isn't personal
08:57:45 <truebrain> but at a certain moment enough is enough 😛
08:58:00 <merni> "unbuncing" is something which needs to be fixed though :P
08:58:06 <merni> No worries I'll do that
08:58:14 <truebrain> not saying any of that doesn't need fixing
08:58:38 <merni> Hm, it only gives me the option to do it one by one
08:58:51 <merni> I guess I could directly edit the file instead of clicking on suggestions
08:59:00 <truebrain> if you go to Files Changed, you can do it in batch
09:00:36 <truebrain> anyway, tnx for the suggestions 🙂 But yeah, next time just change it 😛
09:00:47 <merni> I feel like if we're mentioning renaming cheats the infinite money could also get a mention but that's probably my bias
09:00:59 <merni> truebrain: Yeah I forgot I could do that 😆
09:02:07 <truebrain> okay, eints and me now agree on stats, w00p!
09:02:49 <truebrain> everyone and noone!
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09:13:26 <truebrain> omg, that moment you use a framework for a webpage, and it uses this weird purple colour to indicate you visited a link
09:13:51 <peter1138> Ah, you mean the browser's default...
09:14:09 <peter1138> Back when hyperlinks meant something.
09:14:32 <truebrain> I expect a framework to fix those things for me 😛
09:17:13 <peter1138> Hmm, apparently the latest AI chips (whatever they actually are) now use 4-bit floating point. Well, they know more than I do 🙂
09:17:58 <truebrain> the other day I read a headline: 1-bit floating point LLM
09:18:03 <truebrain> and I was like: I do not want to read that article
09:18:16 <truebrain> just ... yeah, no, calling a 1-bit something a "float" is just pushing my buttons
09:20:58 <michi_cc> Just make sure to store the data on a way too old flash chip, then the cell can really float 🙂
09:21:21 <truebrain> CoPilot still remains funny to me
09:21:27 <truebrain> so I am working on a replacement for eints
09:21:31 <truebrain> and I made the project selector
09:21:36 <truebrain> ```<MenuItem onClick={() => setProject("OpenTTD")}>OpenTTD</MenuItem>
09:21:36 <truebrain> <MenuItem onClick={() => setProject("OpenRCT2")}>OpenRCT2</MenuItem>```
09:21:48 <truebrain> so clearly I need to talk with some people now 😛
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09:36:49 <andythenorth> truebrain: You need a more opinionated framework 😛
09:49:30 <truebrain> okay, been experimenting a bit with doing translation stuff in the browser, instead of on the server. That seems to work well. Means it also becomes a lot easier to do a few of those open requests, like filtering, and not reloading the whole page on every translation
09:49:48 <truebrain> who knew, that using 2024 techniques for software benefit the software 😛
09:50:22 <truebrain> guess next is testing whether we can do client-side validation .. via WASM ofc 😄
09:57:31 <peter1138> Cue users reloading the page and complaining they lost all their changes 🙂
09:57:45 <truebrain> that won't happen, no worries 🙂
09:58:00 <truebrain> all changes are sent to the server as they happen
09:58:03 <truebrain> that is the easy part 🙂
10:11:17 <andythenorth> truebrain: Seems web apps are nearly acceptable in 2024
10:11:38 <andythenorth> They have been horrific for so long
10:11:41 <truebrain> okay, offloading the string validation to WASM also works .. so frosch can write that part in Rust 😛
10:12:41 <truebrain> validating all ~5000 strings takes ~4ms when it doesn't do validation 😛 So that is fine 😉 Ghehe
10:17:04 <peter1138> validating ... when it doesn't do validation.
10:18:24 <truebrain> It is a stub function atm 😛
11:24:56 <peter1138> Guaranteed random 1-bit binary float
11:29:33 <truebrain> anyway, if anyone can check my suggestions for the changelog, we might be able to poop out a 14.0
11:31:09 <truebrain> owh, not all are suggestions; well, guess it needs a bit more work 😛
11:35:08 <_glx_> Stupid GitHub (mobile) it doesn't seem to support multiple suggestions in one comit
11:35:21 <truebrain> only via "Files Changed"; not sure that exists on mobile 🙂
11:37:19 <_glx_> "Files changed" is on mobile, but doesn't have the feature
11:39:27 <_glx_> And for some days now, there's a big green button "finish your review"
11:39:43 <truebrain> yeah, they changed mobile flow a bit was on their blog
11:54:15 <_glx_> ah yeah it's better from computer
11:54:39 <truebrain> too bad I couldn't find how to suggest removing a line 😛
11:55:50 <_glx_> I just started VS, so I can do that from there
11:56:53 <_glx_> but to remove a line it's like any other suggestions
11:58:21 <truebrain> so that means only moving of lines is not possible (yet) 😛
11:59:03 <_glx_> moving should be possible too by selecting a huge block
11:59:22 <_glx_> but it might be hard depending on the changes
12:01:27 <_glx_> not sure about the [NewGRF] tags, I think FRUI->FRUT deserves it, the CT_INVALID one is more generic
12:01:46 <truebrain> who, outside of NewGRFs, know about `CT_INVALID`?
12:01:51 <truebrain> (and outsides developers, ofc)
12:01:55 <peter1138> NewGRFs don't even know about it.
12:02:00 <peter1138> It's internal really.
12:03:01 <truebrain> or if there was a user effect, we should describe that, ofc 🙂
12:04:38 <truebrain> anything else to do for 14.0?
12:04:42 <truebrain> asserts are already disabled, right?
12:04:49 <truebrain> one more eints backport?
12:05:02 <peter1138> Social media posts?
12:05:13 <truebrain> we first need a release before we post 😛
12:05:16 <peter1138> Would be good if I do fosstodon it when it's released instead of days later...
12:05:36 <peter1138> Yes, I just want to copy & paste some text though, I have no brain for writing.
12:07:38 <truebrain> hmm, translations don't seem worth doing
12:08:37 <truebrain> owh, that website PR does need an approval
12:13:09 <_glx_> hmm yeah only one translation touched since previous backport
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12:43:47 <_glx_> I'm ready to press the button
12:52:33 <SpComb> it's not 2024-04-14 yet!
12:57:05 <truebrain> now to wait for a while 😛
12:57:43 <_glx_> should be a little faster now with mac on M1 🙂
13:11:23 <truebrain> it really is fast, a realease in general
13:11:26 <truebrain> just Windows now ...
13:11:39 <truebrain> guess I should login to Steam already
13:17:23 <truebrain> by now the release is backed, but I cannot publish it on the website yet 😛
13:21:24 <truebrain> glad you enjoy reading what we write to promote the game you work on peter1138 😛 😛 😛
13:24:00 <truebrain> funny, I had to confirm pushing this to stable on Steam from my mobile
13:24:34 <truebrain> michi_cc: can I bother you for some Reddit / Twitter posts?
13:24:42 <truebrain> peter1138: you do you?
13:24:48 <truebrain> orudge: mind published 14.0 on the Windows Store?
13:26:23 <peter1138> truebrain: Reasons, sorry.
13:26:47 <truebrain> No worries, I appreciated the approval 🙂
13:26:53 <truebrain> it is not like 10 people already nitpicked it to death 😛
13:27:43 <truebrain> owh wait, it was! 😛
13:28:46 <truebrain> seems all automation worked as one would expect
13:30:29 <truebrain> oops, I forgot to publish the RCs on GOG
13:30:31 <truebrain> owh well, they are there now
13:30:34 <truebrain> together with 14.0 🙂
13:36:00 <truebrain> let's see when the first bug lands 😛
13:39:11 <talltyler> Already got a report about helptexts not being accurate 🙂
13:40:00 <talltyler> I haven’t fully comprehended what they mean but I suspect they misunderstand how wallclock timekeeping units work.
13:40:19 <truebrain> and it happened before the release, so it doesn't count 😛
13:40:42 <talltyler> (It is 7:40 where I am so I’m not awake enough to think about it too hard yet 🙂 )
13:42:20 <truebrain> well, one thing happened before another
13:42:22 <truebrain> not much to think about
13:42:30 <truebrain> (I know , that is not what you meant 😄 )
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13:53:02 <truebrain> morning frosch123 ; I need a new name for a webtranslator. And don't give me that "true" crap, I need something original 😄 😛
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13:54:08 <frosch123> either way, i just assumed you would go for WebTranslator 5
13:54:13 <truebrain> talltyler: that steam issue is very odd, as I cannot reproduce it 😛 Feels more like "user fiddle with it and forgot about it"
13:54:26 <frosch123> noone can count them
13:54:36 <truebrain> frosch123: so boring! 😛
13:54:53 <truebrain> but I have some boilerplate for you to write Rust in, if you like 🙂 Just need a repo to push the work to 😛
13:56:40 <frosch123> how many repos will it need? language-def, language-server, language-client, language-data?
13:58:06 <truebrain> depends a bit, not sure yet. One repo for the definitions sounds like a good idea. More the question becomes: do we make 1 repo for all server/client components, so sharing the rust code is easier? Or will it be several repos, like server / validator (library) / client ?
13:58:23 <truebrain> in general it is better to use different repos for things written in different languages, I guess
13:59:40 <frosch123> we should find a wordplay with rhine
14:00:14 <frosch123> we want to get away from amazon, and anything i dump here into the river will end up in the rhine and go your way
14:02:12 <truebrain> btw, FYI, I introduced the `default` case, in case no case is set
14:02:23 <truebrain> makes it a bit easier to handle than `null`, `"acc"`, ...
14:02:42 <FLHerne> oh, but something else code-y is called that already
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14:04:45 <frosch123> it's a rather specific translator, it's way less universal than eints was intended to be, so anything with "babel" does not fit
14:05:06 <truebrain> this will be the dumb brother of eints, yes 😄
14:05:46 <frosch123> less-money-for-jeff or somehing
14:06:32 <truebrain> okay, atm 18% of BaNaNaS traffic is 14.0 .. let's see how quickly that changes
14:07:00 <peter1138> Oh right, in the file scanner "extension" means "file name ends with", not actually "extension".
14:07:35 <peter1138> Script stuff searches for the "extension" "/info.nut"
14:07:35 <truebrain> frosch123: what does eints stand for, btw?
14:07:46 <frosch123> eints-is-a-newgrf-translation-service
14:08:23 <frosch123> it was developed for devzone to offer translations to all newgrf projects
14:09:11 <truebrain> and we hijacked it 😛
14:09:41 <frosch123> i think originally eints was even meant as a desktop application
14:09:45 <_glx_> And we pushed its limits
14:09:52 <frosch123> but which translator can run a python app?
14:10:05 <truebrain> enough python->exe tools these days
14:10:34 <truebrain> (Amazon in reverse, NoZama, Translator. NoZT)
14:11:24 <frosch123> nile-is-less-expensive
14:12:11 <truebrain> I have been considering moving all translation stuff to a new organisation btw, just so we can enforce 2FA on OpenTTD
14:12:16 <truebrain> but for now, let's build 🙂
14:12:52 <peter1138> Now the real survey results happen.
14:18:48 <frosch123> in the new translator i would also like to enforce naming/numbering all string parameters
14:20:02 <frosch123> i,e if the english source says "{RAWSTRING} {NUM} {P "" s}", the translator will show "{0:STRING} {1:NUM} {1:P "" s}" and except the numbering in the translation as well
14:20:29 <frosch123> it's always difficult to explain how to number parameters
14:20:32 <truebrain> that would require some pre-processing, but I am fine with that
14:20:54 <frosch123> eints already does preprocessing RAWSTRING>STRING
14:21:00 <frosch123> and it needs to check the numbering anyway
14:21:10 <truebrain> there are two parts to this
14:21:26 <truebrain> the preprocessing currently is a simple Rust tool that reads the .txt and converts it into a .json
14:21:38 <truebrain> well, simple, it fires a lot of "git blame" to get close to eints "outdated" 🙂
14:21:57 <truebrain> the validation I will show in a sec, and is an empty shell atm 🙂
14:22:30 <frosch123> the replacement can also happen at client side
14:22:39 <frosch123> it's not much different to the validation
14:22:57 <truebrain> I would rather do it once for everyone, instead of everyone doing it every time 🙂
14:23:08 <truebrain> I added 3 parameters for validation; no clue if more is needed
14:23:15 <truebrain> I can imagine it also needs to know some bits about the language itself
14:23:27 <truebrain> we can add what-ever we need
14:23:44 <frosch123> it needs to know the language for sure 🙂
14:23:53 <truebrain> yeah, but what about the language, is important
14:24:02 <frosch123> so it knows genders, plurals, cases, ...
14:24:37 <truebrain> as you cannot fetch a resource or something; so we need to find a way to feed that information into this 🙂
14:24:54 <truebrain> easiest, especially for now, is to do that on every call
14:25:05 <truebrain> so feel free to change / extend the `validate` function with what ever you need
14:25:11 <truebrain> it does need to be JS-ifyable
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14:25:21 <truebrain> so a `Vec<String>` is fine. A `&String` is not
14:25:28 <truebrain> (but a `String` is)
14:26:00 <truebrain> as these language metadata doesn't change often, I can also see a world where we rebuild this library every time language metadata changes
14:26:11 <truebrain> and have some script that converts the definition files to something Rust can understand
14:26:23 <truebrain> now I think about it a bit more, I would be fine with that too, and that an extra parameter is just "language"
14:26:34 <truebrain> so if you are up for it, go nuts on that repo 😛
14:27:11 <frosch123> ok, so "nile" it is
14:27:40 <truebrain> I kept it in my space for now; not that it matters, was just easier
14:29:25 <truebrain> I am also not married to `validator` or `validate`. Just name it what-ever works best 🙂
14:30:01 <truebrain> owh, forgot license file
14:30:09 <truebrain> LGPL I guess .. or do we dare going MIT?
14:35:56 <peter1138> Dual license with a CLA...
14:36:16 <truebrain> what I like about MIT, is that I don't have to worry whether it is a library or application
14:36:38 <truebrain> but (L)GPL forces more that people contribute back
14:36:48 <truebrain> totally irrelevant for nile 🙂
14:37:54 <peter1138> It doesn't force contributions back.
14:39:31 <frosch123> in particular the validation part should be compatible with ottd, so not gpl3 or agpl
14:39:40 <truebrain> peter1138: I had this word "more" in that sentence for a reason 🙂
14:39:53 <peter1138> Personally I would suggest MIT, but I'm unlikely to actually be involved.
14:39:54 <frosch123> LGPL or MIT is fine for me
14:40:14 <truebrain> I just added LGPL, but I would prefer MIT, so let me change it 🙂
14:40:54 <peter1138> Dual LGPL/MIT just to be awkward :p
14:41:13 <Eddi|zuHause> all the licenses!
14:41:22 <truebrain> copyright to who ... `OpenTTD` or `OpenTTD Dev Team`, or what do we use?
14:42:01 <truebrain> me and hopefully frosch 😛
14:43:55 <frosch123> you would think there is a precedent, but i can't find any
14:44:13 <frosch123> no repo seems to name a copyright holder
14:44:28 <truebrain> that word `project` feels a bit odd, but okay
14:45:36 <truebrain> did a force-push to make it clear from r1 what is going on 😄
14:46:32 <truebrain> 70% of BaNaNaS traffic is 14.0 🙂
14:55:24 <truebrain> right, need to setup a bunch more infra for this to become easier to manage, but that is for a later moment in time. First, we develop. Well, no, first, we have dinner 😄
15:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> don't we have a legal entity now that we could name?
15:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> or is that a bad idea?
15:02:21 <peter1138> When someone else contributes, they hold the copyright to their own code.
15:02:40 <peter1138> If you say the copyright belongs to an entity, rather than the coders, it begins to look CLA-like.
15:02:43 <_glx_> Legal entity is only for distribution
15:06:19 <FLHerne> "© OpenTTD Contributors (see version history)"?
15:31:21 <peter1138> Someone has set their BBQ up...
15:36:42 <FLHerne> sounds like a good idea to me
15:36:49 <FLHerne> lovely afternoon here
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17:45:04 <frosch123> ok, nice, i'll assume the validator gets the nile-config passed then
17:45:34 <truebrain> I think it is easier to to a JSON->Rust conversion, and compile the results into the WASM
17:45:38 <truebrain> as it changes to little
17:46:40 <frosch123> we'll see, it makes no difference for the validator code itself. that can be handles by some onion around it
17:47:22 <truebrain> I guess only `plural`, `gender` and `case` is important to the validator?
17:48:44 <frosch123> technically yes, but I may need the name/isocode for error reporting
17:49:03 <truebrain> okay; I will make a PR in a sec for nile-validator with that information
17:49:08 <truebrain> just something to work from
17:50:20 <frosch123> hmm, i want some more info in the config though
17:50:51 <truebrain> make a PR, or tell me what you want 🙂
17:50:54 <truebrain> adding things as we go 😉
17:53:36 <frosch123> i want the plural-form definition somewhere, it's needed by both the validator and the gui
17:53:52 <frosch123> i think the eints variant is more readable
17:54:09 <truebrain> so instead of the number, you want that list?
17:54:49 <frosch123> in nile-config repo it should be a separate file
17:54:53 <truebrain> I guess the text itself is not that relevant for the validator?
17:55:00 <frosch123> `plurals.json` in the root
17:55:07 <frosch123> independent of languages/projects
17:55:15 <truebrain> yeah, I get that; but what do you need in the validator?
17:55:20 <frosch123> tha validator needs the amount of plurals
17:55:39 <frosch123> and the rest for the error messages
17:55:55 <frosch123> but well, maybe errors can be reported differently than as raw text
17:56:13 <truebrain> up to you; what ever is easiest
17:56:16 <truebrain> it can even be a struct of data
17:56:24 <truebrain> so we could even return the character that went wrong, and stuff like that
17:58:23 <frosch123> uff, character position in utf8 strings 🙂
17:58:33 <truebrain> see it as a challenge
17:58:54 <peter1138> utf8 -> unicode -> position
17:59:07 <peter1138> Except for those pesky combining characters.
17:59:23 <frosch123> codepoint index, grapheme claster index? :p
17:59:57 <peter1138> Probably a huge bloated library around that can handle it all 😉
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18:08:57 <truebrain> lol, CORS preventing me from testing this the way I want to 😛
18:11:32 <_zephyris> BTW do translations do anything smart like preferring precombined characters rather than combining diacritics?
18:11:47 <_zephyris> That'd be good for sprite font support
18:12:00 <_zephyris> Might be too much of a corner case to care about though
18:12:57 <frosch123> _zephyris: right now it doesn't. we could normalise ottd strings, but normalizing gs/newgrf strings is probably too much
18:14:25 <frosch123> funnily i don't think i need the "case" 🙂 i would need the "format" (openttd/newgrf/gs) though
18:14:40 <frosch123> but let me write some stuff first
18:14:43 <truebrain> I am sure you run into more of these; just change what is needed. This is more a template 🙂
18:16:19 <truebrain> Already added that, just so we don't forget 🙂
18:18:12 <truebrain> btw peter1138 second person that mentions map generation fails because of towns. Some NewGRF is causing that. As there are now two reports, starts to sound like we changed something breaking some NewGRF 🙂
18:20:20 <peter1138> Maybe but they're always vague.
18:21:36 <peter1138> See, nothing conclusive.
18:21:49 <truebrain> same with the other one earlier
18:24:05 <peter1138> I'll wait til one appears as an issue 😉
18:25:08 <peter1138> We do have a test for whether vehicles are available at the start of the game, not sure if it's feasible to do the same for houses (there's a "can it be built" callback which interferes with dates)
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19:10:29 <_glx_> and we publish betas and RCs for people to find bugs
19:31:27 <frosch123> pff, tb wants a newer rustc version than is part of debian-sid
19:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i was just thinking about "rust rp" but that is something completely different :p
19:46:05 <truebrain> meh; BaNaNaS downloads via TCP are still not solved
19:46:28 <truebrain> almost 80% of BaNaNaS is now 14.0 🙂
19:46:33 <truebrain> that is really quick 😄
19:47:44 <peter1138> But it's still TCP?
19:49:03 <truebrain> on the other hand, not more TCP connections than with 13.4, which means the HTTPS works for as many people as 13.4 😛
19:49:43 <truebrain> so that is the good news 🙂
19:50:12 <truebrain> I am seriously considering doing "brownouts" over TCP, in the hope people report "I can't download from BaNaNaS", to finally properly understand why they use TCP, and not HTTPS
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21:31:50 <truebrain> amount of surveys we are receiving
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21:47:54 <andythenorth> this layout is really hard to place 😛
21:48:20 <andythenorth> it requires understanding that the N tile is on land
21:48:36 <andythenorth> other layouts are even harder though, some orientations put the N tile at sea
21:49:21 <andythenorth> maybe industry placer should do a spiral tile walk around the clicked location?
21:52:01 <talltyler> Someone asked me in another server: what’s the status of social plugins on MacOS? I remember reading they were broken but haven’t seen anything since.
21:52:03 <peter1138> I think cmclient has something to help with this, but it's a bit overkill.
21:53:15 <truebrain> talltyler: when we tested them, they worked. And they are enabled. But ... too few MacOS users to know 🙂
21:53:40 <talltyler> Oh, so nothing wrong then?
21:53:48 <talltyler> That’s always good news 🙂
21:54:04 <peter1138> Didn't once of them require signing of a 3rdparty library or something?
21:55:37 <truebrain> one users said that, the other said it worked fine, I kinda gave up on knowing what MacOS is doing today 🙂
21:55:46 <truebrain> unless we get a developer that is serious about MacOS, it is just ... "maybe"? 😄
21:58:59 <truebrain> So let us know what that one user on that other server reports back talltyler 🙂
21:59:36 <talltyler> Yes, I told them as such 🙂
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23:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "that it breaks means it's now working correctly" :p
continue to next day ⏵
