IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-02-16
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00:20:39 <peter1138[d]> Some kind of scale issue...
00:28:10 <emperorjake> I see some stolen SimCity 2000 sprites
00:28:40 <peter1138[d]> Yeah, there's a load of junk on bananas right
00:29:47 <emperorjake> I think this is the same person who stole Pineapple Trains sprites, which was removed
01:10:37 <talltyler> Hahaha I forgot about that
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02:13:42 <kale91> emperorjake: this rules
02:13:48 <kale91> need to make this into an emoji or something
02:20:34 <talltyler> Yeah, I don’t want to forget about that again, it’s too funny
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03:13:59 <kale91> it did not take me an hour to make that I got distracted
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06:36:06 <Ox7C5> Just want to send lots of love to all contributors. Apppreciate the effort you all have put into OTTD.
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08:12:34 <truebrain> For those that have trouble with hex values, that is 1989
08:12:57 <truebrain> I understood yesterday some of you are troubled by that 0x, so I just want to help out
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09:03:31 <Ox7C5> Yeah, I usually go by Ox, depends on whether the service I use allows leading numbers in user names
09:03:53 <Ox7C5> I've seen some games parse my username and literally display it as 1989
09:41:28 <andythenorth> why does viewing reddit in Chrome require a whole CPU core?
09:41:40 <truebrain> just don't view reddit
09:46:58 <emperorjake> and don't use Chrome
09:47:52 <locosage> oh, cmon, your mbp still should still have some cores to spare even after hosting openttd infra
09:47:55 <peter1138[d]> Layout seems to have changed.
10:13:59 <andythenorth> how do I detect a free wagon chain in the depot in grf?
10:14:22 <andythenorth> I thought I could check if parent power is 0, but appears there might be no parent if there's no engine?
10:15:30 <andythenorth> I don't really want to use my stupid check of IDs for neighbouring 128 vehicles in each direction, at least not in this case 😛
10:21:39 <andythenorth> maybe I just let that be the default case
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10:26:36 <phreeze83> is it normal that sometimes the text says "Ctrl-Click" and sometimes "Ctrl+Click" ?
10:26:53 <phreeze83> in: STR_AI_DEBUG_SELECT_AI_TOOLTIP
10:26:53 <phreeze83> {BLACK}View debug output of this AI. Ctrl-Click to open in a new window
10:26:53 <phreeze83> most of the time it's Ctrl+Click
10:27:08 <phreeze83> e.g: STR_DEPOT_ROAD_VEHICLE_LOCATION_TOOLTIP
10:27:08 <phreeze83> {BLACK}Centre main view on road vehicle depot location. Ctrl+Click to open a new viewport on road depot location
10:32:50 <andythenorth> hmm newgrf storage for vehicles?
10:33:08 <phreeze83> it's in the translator UI
10:40:48 <peter1138[d]> There are 128 Ctrl+Click, and 2 Ctrl-Click. I'd assume it should be Ctrl+Click for all 🙂
10:46:17 <phreeze83> ok i just found of them lol ^^
10:46:44 <phreeze83> funny because in every magazine and webpage, authos write "Ctrl-Click" or "Ctrl-Z" etc
10:46:49 <phreeze83> NEVER with a plus-sign
10:47:11 <truebrain> you checked every magazine? That must have been a big job 😛
10:48:07 <phreeze83> reading mags for over 25 years ^^
10:48:32 <phreeze83> (ok Excel says Ctrl+Z) ... arrrrr
10:50:11 <phreeze83> ok other Programs too.. why the heck do magazines write a "minus" ..
10:51:35 <Ox7C5> phreeze83: I would not use Excel (or any MS text) as a reference :P Did loc testing for them and they are so wildly inconsistent
10:52:12 <Ox7C5> But I'd absolutely go for Ctrl+Z
10:53:08 <Ox7C5> The + does indicate that it's a combination. I think a lot of written media uses - because it's a little less cluttering and people will mostly understand both
10:55:26 <peter1138[d]> Someone™ should be a PR to fix our two Click- instances 😉
10:55:52 <peter1138[d]> Shit, it was me who got it wrong. Haha.
10:56:18 <peter1138[d]> I blame the reviewers 🤡
10:57:07 <andythenorth> I would like my AV software to stop eating all my RAM
10:58:50 <peter1138[d]> What's AV software?
10:59:46 <Ox7C5> peter1138[d]: I'd be up for doing it later today. I've long wanted to give something back to OTTD
11:01:03 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: it's a compliance measure 😛
11:01:23 <phreeze83> company PC? yeah we also have to use it, as compliance guys live in 1990
11:01:34 <andythenorth> but it reduces the chances of me being a vector for windows viruses
11:01:47 <andythenorth> so it has to be operated
11:02:07 <peter1138[d]> Yeah, we found it easier to install AV on Linux servers instead of trying to explain everytime...
11:02:25 <andythenorth> it has found advertising malware in our company macs twice, both times fake flash installers
11:02:39 <andythenorth> but it finds hundreds of windows viruses in spam email
11:03:15 <phreeze83> our mailgateways deny about 75-80% of mails each day. all spam,scam,phishing,...
11:08:29 <xarick> does the regression savegame have an oilrig?
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11:39:53 <andythenorth> ach did I not file an issue for 'autoreplace can cause random flip to be inherited for vehicles that shouldn't randomly flip'? 🙂
11:56:38 <xarick> `IsWithinMapBounds` returns false for oilrig, is that intended?
11:57:29 <xarick> byte num_table; ///< number of elements in the table
11:57:43 <pickpacket> remind me, how long time does a year take at normal speed? A century?
12:02:35 <xarick> ScriptAirport::GetNearestTown returns invalid town
12:03:04 <phreeze83> perhaps because at sealevel?
12:03:39 <xarick> IsAirportInformationAvailable doesn't like oilrig, so I skipped it
12:04:04 <xarick> IsWithinMapBounds tests num_table... 😦
12:04:51 <xarick> table 0 >= 0 ? return false
12:15:22 <talltyler> Pickpacket: one day is two seconds, so a month is about a minute and a year is about 12 minutes.
12:19:02 <xarick> test 1: deity mode, test 2: company mode
12:19:48 <pickpacket> talltyler: 2 seconds exactly?
12:20:50 <xarick> GetNearestTown and GetNoiseLevelIncrease are still wrong
12:21:25 <xarick> GetAirportCoverageRadius is semi-wrong
12:24:16 <johnfranklin> 74 tick/ms * 27 ms
12:24:41 <johnfranklin> 74 ticks * 27 ms/tick
12:24:56 <pickpacket> johnfranklin, talltyler: ty
12:26:32 <talltyler> And that’s if your computer can run OpenTTD without any slowdown. If you have a lot of vehicles, etc, a day might be longer
12:29:01 <truebrain> if only real life worked like that .. when it gets busy, days get longer 😛
12:35:30 <andythenorth> is it too late to make supported railtypes a list on the vehicle?
12:35:49 <andythenorth> Horse seems to break Timberwolf tracks
12:36:14 <andythenorth> the preferred solution appears to be 'delete railtypes from Horse' which doesn't seem like a great route
12:47:07 <pickpacket> talltyler: that's true
12:47:34 * pickpacket has the train limit set at 1000
13:19:20 <andythenorth> amusingly broken railtype
13:19:28 <andythenorth> using vehicle sprites for track
13:34:53 <xarick> someone made a bad assumption
13:36:33 <andythenorth> I changed grf loading order in running game
13:36:52 <xarick> actually, it's complicated
13:38:00 <xarick> `AirportGetNearestTown(as, as->rotation[0], tile, AirportTileTableIterator(as->table[0], tile), dist);` this is assuming GS's can't inspect human companies using OpenGFX+ Airports 0.5.0
13:38:16 <xarick> rotation is assumed to be DIR_N
13:38:43 <xarick> look into a human's airport
13:39:07 <_glx_> remember GS were added after AI using the same functions
13:52:03 <peter1138[d]> andythenorth: Rail types were never really intended to be mixed between sets.
13:52:21 <andythenorth> I think I could improve it, but it's very load-order dependent
13:52:23 <peter1138[d]> Beyond "I have a specialty vehicle with a specialty rail type"
13:54:01 <andythenorth> the spec already supports a lot more compatibility than I've provided, but only if grfs are loaded in the correct order
13:54:15 <andythenorth> and ignoring the unwise nml 'compatibility' crap 🙂
13:57:50 <_glx_> load order doesn't matter for railtype availability
13:58:23 <andythenorth> it does for compatibility though
13:58:26 <_glx_> but you're not supposed to skipt railtype definitions with railtype conditions
13:59:24 <peter1138[d]> I had a plan to allow > 64 railtypes, but only have 64 on the map.
13:59:30 <andythenorth> I can make Horse engines work on Timberwolf tracks, by defining a railtype and adding Timberwolf labels to the compatible list
13:59:37 <andythenorth> but only if Horse is loaded after Timberwolf
13:59:37 <peter1138[d]> That would help with all the fake compatibility-only railtypes.
13:59:54 <peter1138[d]> It wouldn't help with making everything interoperate though.
14:00:32 <andythenorth> /me considers a UI for railtype on/off 😛
14:00:41 <andythenorth> "just let the player choose"
14:02:12 <andythenorth> well it's all good fun eh? 😄
14:02:18 <andythenorth> I had 2 babybels
14:02:28 <andythenorth> might have a tea
14:02:33 <peter1138[d]> I had a little cheesecake.
14:03:03 <andythenorth> pretty much a babybel TBH
14:03:10 <andythenorth> cake shaped small cheese
14:04:33 <peter1138[d]> It was basically a 2.5cm cube of cheesecake. Hardly worth bothering with, but probably about 1 million kcal.
14:05:55 <xarick> ScriptAirport::GetNearestTown is now fixed! kek
14:07:04 <xarick> GetNoiseLevelIncrease remaining
14:29:17 <peter1138[d]> Swap in C#: `(a, b) = (b, a)`
14:29:29 <peter1138[d]> Efficient? Probably not.
14:34:59 <andythenorth> `(a, b)` is a tuple
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14:44:04 <locosage> andythenorth: same as ()
14:45:37 <LordAro> (andythenorth) is not a tuple
14:45:53 <xarick> who's a newgrf expert?
14:46:25 <xarick> can you edit the oilrig station as to add a maintenance cost?
14:46:33 <xarick> would that have any effect on the player?
14:46:33 <andythenorth> xarick: literally nobody
14:46:50 <LordAro> andythenorth: just frosch, surely
14:47:19 <andythenorth> oh yes, but I think frosch retires for a few months every time we ask
14:47:43 <xarick> airport maintenance cost in this case
14:50:45 <talltyler> Perks of working for an international company: my Powerpoint template was created in German and spellcheck is stuck in that mode, even though the app is in English mode. How do we do language support better than Microsoft? 😛
14:50:46 <andythenorth> GPT 4: "I can't search the internet"
14:50:51 <andythenorth> me "search with bing"
14:50:56 <andythenorth> GPT 4: "Searching with bing"
14:57:40 <peter1138[d]> "What would a response to "search with bing" look like"
14:58:54 <andythenorth> It searched bing
14:58:57 <andythenorth> for grf.farm stuff
14:59:04 <andythenorth> I am outsourcing some of Horse to GPT
14:59:40 <xarick> AirportTileTableIterator - there is no table for AT_OILRIG, there's only nullptr
15:02:55 <peter1138[d]> Yes, you can't build oilrigs.
15:03:07 <peter1138[d]> They are part of the oilrig industry.
15:03:43 <locosage> andythenorth: why not just use bing?
15:05:37 <andythenorth> I wanted it to learn stuff
15:05:44 <andythenorth> then I ran out of GPT 4 credits
15:08:12 <xarick> ScriptStation::IsValidStation(station_id) this returns true for neutral stations... I wonder what will happen
15:10:10 <locosage> wonder if I can outsource writing docs for grf-py to it xD
15:10:46 <xarick> can I attach a lorry station to an oilrig for example, would be cool
15:12:39 <andythenorth> locosage: it's totally crap at nml and GS
15:12:43 <andythenorth> if that's of any help
15:12:51 <andythenorth> absolute hallucinations
15:12:56 <andythenorth> it's usually ok at html
15:15:04 <locosage> well, that's because it's not trained on any of it
15:15:25 <locosage> I'm looking for something that would read python code
15:16:23 <locosage> though I guess it's pretty good at hallucinating python code too xD
15:16:41 <locosage> what's even worse it looks like it could work unlike nml/gs
15:40:13 <xarick> it made a lot of tests in DoCommand before it reached one that checked for ownership
15:40:24 <xarick> can't attach to neutral owners
15:48:55 <kuhnovic> The trees look a little bit weird btw, as if they are drawn from a different perspective compared to the iso grid
15:49:24 <kuhnovic> I love the style though
15:49:25 <nanapipirara> Yeah, they're a bit too flat
15:49:27 <xarick> does these results make sense on an oilrig station?
15:49:38 <nanapipirara> Maybe rounding the bottom is enough to fix it
15:50:14 <nanapipirara> my style is generally too flat, my brain is very very 2D. So my first attempts are almost always too flat (:
15:56:12 <xarick> IsAirportTile I'm unsure about this...
15:56:19 <xarick> maybe it should return false
16:10:22 <kuhnovic> nanapipirara: Yeah that should already give them a much more 3D look. Start 2D-ish and work your way up from there 😉
16:14:44 <_glx_> oilrig doesn't have any airport tiles
16:16:06 <_glx_> with some magic values in the layout (these magic values also work to add neutral station in other industries)
16:16:52 <nanapipirara> with other trees i've cheated myself out of persective by making trees round round round
16:17:21 <nanapipirara> perspective on big silos at the oil refinery is also not great
16:18:59 <andythenorth> is nice though 😄
16:19:45 <andythenorth> could we make railtype behaviour orthogonal to grf order?
16:19:53 <andythenorth> or is that just not possible in grf?
16:20:59 <peter1138[d]> It should be, unless you are defining the same railtype label, or too many are defined.
16:23:38 <peter1138[d]> Railtype labels are loaded during reservation, the other properties are loaded during activation.
16:23:49 <peter1138[d]> So all railtype labels are known already.
16:23:53 <andythenorth> I don't know what nml does
16:25:37 <peter1138[d]> And railtype label translation for engines is done after everything is loaded.
16:25:46 <peter1138[d]> This isn't anything NML controls.
16:26:03 <andythenorth> ok let's test again
16:26:15 <peter1138[d]> Although skipping definitions might cause problems.
16:27:31 <peter1138[d]> Anyway, you could split your railtypes off to a separate NewGRF, then let players either load yours or load something else
16:35:52 <andythenorth> ok need to set powered, not just compatible
16:36:34 <andythenorth> also changing railtype grfs on a running game not advised (surprise!)
16:36:35 <xarick> probably a worthless PR, but...
16:37:05 <peter1138[d]> andythenorth: With mapped railtypes it could work
16:37:32 <andythenorth> it got me a spurious result earlier, but eh 🙂
16:37:51 <peter1138[d]> As in, with a feature that doesn't exist yet...
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17:17:33 <xarick> airport rotation next?
17:20:30 <xarick> or depot unbunching for AIs?
17:20:42 <xarick> thought I'm not quite sure how it works
17:26:24 <xarick> do I need to share orders?
17:34:29 <xarick> I don't see any difference
17:34:37 <xarick> the ships still bunch up
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17:37:54 <xarick> can only have 1 unbunch order? that's sad 😦
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17:54:11 <_zephyris> Yes shared orders, and one place to unbunch. Otherwise how do you measure journey time? (well, I know there's ways to do it, but not simply)
17:56:53 <xarick> does it work with nearest depot? or i must make it a real depot?
17:57:07 <xarick> I don't know what I'm supposed to see
17:58:08 <andythenorth> ship unbunching works for me
17:58:28 <andythenorth> first time I've tried it, works as expected
17:59:52 <_glx_> it needs shared orders and a depot
18:00:19 <_glx_> needs at least a full loop
18:00:34 <_glx_> else it can't know the time
18:00:46 <talltyler> Hmm, “nearest depot” might cause issues as I did not plan (or test) for that
18:01:09 <xarick> there's only 1 depot in this sea
18:01:13 <_glx_> nearest should not be allowed for unbunching
18:01:51 <talltyler> But yes, it needs several full loops of each vehicle to settle in, since it calculates a rolling average of each vehicle’s last trip duration. If the vehicle hasn’t made a full trip yet, that’ll be 0 ticks 🙂
18:02:08 <andythenorth> macOS seems to have a shell zip tool, wasn't expecting that
18:02:14 <andythenorth> seems to be www.info-zip.org
18:02:28 <andythenorth> do we think that will create bananas-compatible zips?
18:03:57 <xarick> alright, let's fast forward then
18:07:55 <xarick> a shaded viewport still plays sounds... 😐
18:08:05 <xarick> getting tired of hearing the ships booozzing
18:09:06 <talltyler> Turn the volume off in the jukebox?
18:15:43 <xarick> does unbunching work with different vehicles, different speeds?
18:19:30 <peter1138[d]> Given it takes into account the time taken, mixing different speed vehicles probably won't work that well 🙂
18:35:17 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:40:40 <xarick> what about autoreplace, it will need to recalculate?
18:43:28 <xarick> what happens when invalid orders start to show up
18:44:23 <xarick> cus these oil rigs like to poof from time to time
18:58:51 <xarick> ``` /* Don't leave depot if another vehicle is already entering/leaving */
18:58:51 <xarick> /* This helps avoid CPU load if many ships are set to start at the same time */
18:58:51 <xarick> // if (HasVehicleOnPos(v->tile, nullptr, &EnsureNoMovingShipProc)) return true;```
18:58:51 <xarick> gonna try this, to see the real unbunch in action
19:35:16 <andythenorth> I filed a bug report!
19:36:55 <xarick> Ctrl+Click doesn't center main viewport location on ship depot orders
19:36:59 <truebrain> You did not gain a new ability. You do not go to start.
19:37:52 <xarick> it was a nearest depot order....
19:40:34 <andythenorth> woah I filed bugs before 😮
19:40:40 <andythenorth> I don't remember anything anymore
19:42:04 <andythenorth> that tile railtype bug is lol, it's fixed in JGRPP
19:42:21 <andythenorth> I looked if I could upstream it, but way beyond anything I could succeed at 😛
19:43:06 <truebrain> You can do anything you set your mind to!
19:43:17 <andythenorth> I predicted that comment 🙂
19:43:46 <andythenorth> you can do anything you set your mind to, with enough determination, desire, attention span, lifespan
19:43:50 <andythenorth> and help from your friends
19:48:38 <_jgr_> andythenorth: What bug is this?
19:51:18 <_jgr_> That's not really a bug, it's just not a feature that vanilla has or likely wants
19:51:50 <andythenorth> I'd file it under footguns
19:53:31 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, boding, tired and I've a long ride tomorrow :S
20:27:22 <FLHerne> _jgr_: I'd like to see that in vanilla, it's really quite annoying
20:33:58 <xarick> if I enable this airport, i can select it from the build airport menu
20:36:15 <xarick> it has no tile, crashes in the tiletableiterator, what do i do?
20:37:18 <xarick> screw it, I'm not enabling it
20:37:34 <_glx_> oilrig are not airport, they are not buildable by player
20:37:46 <_glx_> unless they build the industry
20:38:18 <xarick> someone suggested to make a table
20:40:22 <xarick> do you know of a tile with no graphics?
20:40:54 <_glx_> that's not supposed to exist
20:45:18 <Rubidium> xarick: I didn't say to enable the oil rig airport, I said to fill the tile table with something good enough for all the other functions of the spec to work... and in the Available function in the script API adding the exception for oil rigs (i.e. keep enabled false)
20:46:34 <xarick> APT_EMPTY looks like this is what I want
20:54:47 <_glx_> I guess the game already has all the stuff, just the API is not aware
20:57:11 <_glx_> like all special handling of AT_OILRIG everywhere
20:59:07 <_glx_> so API also need to "manually" handle AT_OILRIG where needed
21:00:03 <truebrain> sometimes I am shocked how old some clients are that still connect to our infra (and successfully download content 😛 )
21:02:25 <peter1138[d]> if (age_of_build > 2 years) exit();
21:02:57 <truebrain> I wonder what makes someone pick 1.0.1 and goes: yes, this is the version I am really enjoying 🙂
21:03:42 <peter1138[d]> Probably some version before I "messed up" the user interface.
21:03:45 <andythenorth> some change we made 😛
21:05:44 <andythenorth> ach useless diff 🙂
21:06:06 <andythenorth> I made a change that interacted badly with black 😛
21:06:25 <andythenorth> I want to make the nml palette check optional
21:14:55 <frosch123> i wonder what percentage of content will work in 1.0.1
21:15:05 <frosch123> the heightmaps for sure
21:15:27 <frosch123> but then very little
21:16:12 <frosch123> no GS, only ancient scenarios, no NML generated grfs
21:16:30 <truebrain> and I doubt any of the content put any of those restrictions in there 😛
21:16:30 <frosch123> oh, music sets probably work
21:16:57 <Rubidium> might it be some tool that suggests to be 1.0.1?
21:17:16 <truebrain> it happened once in 14 days
21:19:06 <truebrain> sometimes grafana is just annoying as .... I can't get it to consider NODATA as a zero, so averages are correct for the timeframe. It now overestimates the rate ..
21:19:24 <truebrain> in older versions you had much more options to modify data, but recent versions don't really allow this
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21:20:19 <theblacktrainguy> talking to a bot?
21:20:54 <Rubidium> yeah, sentience is a thing ;)
21:21:11 <truebrain> btw, 1.0.1 isn't the oldest client .. there is also 0.7.4 etc 😛
21:21:27 <truebrain> I think 0.7 is the oldest I am able to see 😄
21:22:27 <Rubidium> if it's for the content server, then yeah... anything older is highly suspicious
21:22:48 <xarick> I'm going to change to change
21:27:27 <frosch123> truebrain: well, 0.7 added the content download, so you won't see older clients on bananas
21:27:44 <truebrain> I am happy you both caught on what I was referring to .......
21:27:49 <frosch123> you may see 0.3.2 (?) on master server?
21:28:26 <truebrain> can't see older than 12 on master server 😉
21:28:30 <frosch123> i think i have one backlog free from our lord
21:28:43 <truebrain> only game coordinator actually sends the versions 🙂
21:30:17 <truebrain> awh, I don't collect how many pre-12 requests are being made
21:30:45 <truebrain> but yeah, it only says: I want all IPv4 or IPv6 servers
21:36:42 <xarick> just did as @Rubidium asked
21:52:00 <xarick> @glx can you check doxygen for 12096?
22:13:31 <andythenorth> python allows dynamic imports
22:13:41 <andythenorth> this I did not know
22:16:45 <xarick> do oilrigs produce town noise?
22:17:46 <xarick> I'm under the impression it's not 1
22:19:25 <locosage> python allows dynamic everything xD
22:20:14 <locosage> you can literally just `eval` some code from string
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22:24:38 <_zephyris> andythenorth: It is frowned upon...
22:24:58 <andythenorth> usually I would run away from dynamic imports
22:25:05 <andythenorth> I learnt the hard with falsh
22:25:33 <andythenorth> but I have a case where it makes sense and I can cut a lot of boilerplate
22:33:11 <_zephyris> andythenorth: I do it 🫣
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23:58:48 <kamnet> frosch123: Yes, music sets were operational before 1.0.
continue to next day ⏵
