IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-02-05
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00:32:44 <peter1138[d]> Developer needs to make sure feature works before passing to translators.
00:41:40 <truebrain> The tone is a bit uncalled for, especially for a draft of someone trying to implement your request ...
00:47:28 <wensimehrp> I apologize for that... Next time maybe I should consider more before commenting.
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03:28:18 <merni> Wow the Hindi translation is very incomplete
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06:43:28 <LordAro> i feel like beta3 coming soon...
06:43:59 <peter1138[d]> Of course the tables are overloaded.
06:56:20 <truebrain> Last minute changes win again 😄 at least it doesn't crash, so it is an improvement 🙂
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07:12:17 <DorpsGek> - Add: summary for week 05 of 2024 (by OpenTTD Survey)
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07:48:05 <truebrain> We received surveys for a total of 300 hours of games played, over a total of 625 games. This is an average of 0.48 hours per game.
07:49:51 <truebrain> Jgrpp is played 10 times longer with same amount of games 😛
07:50:05 <truebrain> Crashes might have something to do with it, ofc 🙂
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08:16:26 <_zephyris> peter1138[d]: otm is the outline data, tm is the author-set metadata
08:18:38 <_zephyris> otm is derived from the glyph outline geometry/control points. That's the true bounds of where the glyphs are be, _assuming their position isn't changed by some opentype feature_. tm is the combination of whatever numbers the author picked and how the OS interprets the font metric metadata.
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09:29:48 <merni> James103viaGitHub: lmao this is a funny issue
09:31:13 <LordAro> James finds the best issues
09:34:19 <peter1138[d]> Seems using macros makes it very difficult to include std::initializer_lists
10:18:26 <merni> Wonder how many betas 14 will get
10:18:56 <LordAro> i think we've got up to 5 before
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10:47:57 <peter1138[d]> Only affects new games is a slight saving grace...
10:48:06 <peter1138[d]> It'll affect new industries spawned in those games though.
10:49:10 <peter1138[d]> I've got a solution but it's a bit ugly.
10:49:14 <peter1138[d]> Well, two solutions.
10:49:52 <peter1138[d]> (One of which is revert)
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11:13:46 <xarick> trying to control all paths that lead to deviation
11:16:25 <xarick> TimeoutTimer<TimerGameTick> _new_competitor_timeout ruins the day
11:17:32 <xarick> added a param everywhere to explicitly control when to deviate
11:18:53 <xarick> that's arctic i think, or desert
11:23:14 <xarick> valuables / gold / diamonds for temperate / arctic / tropic
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11:23:28 <xarick> I wonder toyland if anything broke there
11:23:46 <peter1138[d]> Toyland seems to all be separate.
11:33:14 <_glx_> It works in my tests, just needs more cleaning
11:47:00 <andythenorth> any chance of 'destroy vehicle' button, if grf developer is enabled? 😛
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11:47:19 * andythenorth awaits suggestion to crash trains
11:47:53 <peter1138[d]> You could try crashing a train
11:48:05 <emperorjake> Cities skylines has this, comes in handy sometimes
11:48:22 <merni> or allowing magic bulldozer to destroy trains?
11:48:29 <andythenorth> I crashed a train
11:48:40 <andythenorth> shorter than waiting for a PR etc
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11:51:26 <peter1138[d]> It moves at slowest possible speed?
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11:53:00 <xarick> I see 7 engines in that image and still has no power
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12:04:30 <rau117> andythenorth: It would be better then not to “destroy” but to “move to the nearest depot”
12:12:41 <locosage> c++ starts to feel more like rust
12:12:48 <locosage> when shit doesn't compile and you've no idea why
12:12:57 <locosage> but in rust there is at least an error to google...
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12:46:55 <_zephyris> merni: Request a UFO to destroy it 🙂
12:52:14 <locosage> merni: GS needs smth like hat
13:05:13 <LordAro> to confirm, this will fix #11995 and all its duplicates?
13:08:00 <peter1138[d]> Yeah, I couldn't keep up with them all :p
13:08:23 <peter1138[d]> I think I caught all occurrences of slot-reuse.
13:15:29 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, is it possible to alter climate availability of an existing industry? I wonder if things which are single-climate-only (e.g. factory temperate) should also do this.
13:15:57 <LordAro> climate switch cheat + fund industry?
13:16:10 <peter1138[d]> Have you tried that cheat? 🙂
13:16:27 <peter1138[d]> There's a reason for that 😉
13:18:40 <_zephyris> I miss the switch climate cheat, it broke things so wonderfully
13:18:52 <peter1138[d]> Removed 12 years ago.
13:19:54 <truebrain> peter1138[d]: 12000?! Cake!
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13:23:35 <locosage> peter1138[d]: it is possible to substitute industry from another climate
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14:09:34 <_glx_> diff is surprisingly not too big
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14:25:46 <_zephyris> peter1138[d]: The old authentic `0` and `1` are still in the font, but only as opentype lnum/linining numeral alternates... If there's ever support for those opentype features they are there ready!
14:31:15 <peter1138[d]> My CD ripper decided I wanted to see native composer names 🙂
14:34:46 <emperorjake> It's been well over a decade since I ripped a CD😅
14:36:46 <peter1138[d]> Well, that's a different one I guess.
14:41:27 <emperorjake> I didn't even know you could drag GRFs from one box to the other, I just double click them
14:46:36 <talltyler> Am I missing something with applying a .diff file? Place the patch file in the root folder, and run `git apply <patch file name>`? It reads the file properly but says `No such file or directory` for all the entries. The file paths seem to be correct in the patch file…
14:48:12 <talltyler> PowerShell has to be in src/
14:48:34 <talltyler> Now every file says `patch does not apply` 😉
14:48:49 <peter1138[d]> Is that an ancient patch?
14:52:16 <talltyler> I suspect there's more I could do, because `english.txt` hasn't changed _that_ much
14:52:50 <peter1138[d]> You may need -p1 or somesuch.
14:53:03 <peter1138[d]> But if it's ancient you're better off rewritng it.
14:53:45 <peter1138[d]> (By reading the diff and understand what it was doing)
14:54:13 <peter1138[d]> Or check out that ancient version and rebase, but that's not going to be very fun either and won't help much.
14:54:38 <talltyler> Yeah, reading the diff is probably easier than fixing merge conflicts
14:55:13 <peter1138[d]> Also work out what it was trying to achieve, and then work out if you want to do the same.
14:55:29 <talltyler> VSCode actually makes the diff readable, which is more than I can say for other tools I've used previously
14:56:21 <talltyler> There are quite a few design changes I'd like to make, but with unbunching it was really nice to start with some code and then rewrite it incrementally
14:56:37 <talltyler> Not an option here, but that's fine 🙂
14:56:54 <peter1138[d]> You will understand it better so that's a good thing 😉
14:58:12 <talltyler> Oh, I will definitely need to understand this one 😄
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14:59:27 <peter1138[d]> You have probably passed the point of "coding the game is more fun than playing the game" 😉
15:00:17 <talltyler> The problem I'm trying to fix, btw, is "traffic waves" when fast trains catch up to slow trains and come to a full stop at a red signal, causing the train behind them to stop, and so on. Slowing trains down if there's traffic ahead solves this problem in real life, and also does so in JGRPP. I think vanilla can benefit from a simple implementation of this. 🙂
15:00:45 <talltyler> peter1138[d]: ...yes, I think I have 😦
15:01:18 <talltyler> Anyway, I should do Real Job before I get into this 😉
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15:07:45 <locomotor79> can you guys finnaly add what sombody did as a mod for the original game TTDX the copy and paste system
15:07:45 <locomotor79> whit save storage not only clipboard storage
15:07:45 <locomotor79> also qstion iff whe get these huge maps can whe also get copy and paste tracks signal bridges tunnels
15:07:45 <locomotor79> like the original mod for TTDX becausse that whould be handy and even saving compleet crossings and can lateron paste them whit ground work and all
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15:20:25 <xarick> visual studio is buggy
15:20:45 <xarick> sometimes I press tab and it doesn't ident
15:26:53 <xarick> can't get rid of "simulated deviations"
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15:34:11 <_glx_> xarick: tried my branch ?
15:34:40 <xarick> haven't yet, still trying to get this commited, then I'll check
15:35:47 <_glx_> what it does is copy config on start, then while AI is running you only access the local copy, and once AI is killed the original copy is there untouched
16:00:10 <_zephyris> Looks like the signal buttons escaped the do-not-inset-the-icon-on-press changes
16:06:13 <xarick> 2nd commit is too large, I might drop it
16:06:36 <xarick> but with it, startai is better controlled
16:06:41 <_glx_> yeah try my solution, you should like it
16:07:23 <_glx_> startai <AI> still overwrite the config, but I'd say it's an expected side effect
16:07:58 <_glx_> is equivalent to manually edit the config, then run startai
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16:15:49 <peter1138[d]> _zephyris: Huh, it was only ever shifted 1 pixel, ignoring scaling. That's why I didn't notice.
16:23:18 <_glx_> I was in the wrong state before starting recording, but Wright AI was a random one
16:24:19 <_glx_> I think it does what you expect
16:26:08 <xarick> slightly confused at CONFIG_RANDOM
16:26:12 <xarick> i thought it was removed
16:30:13 <xarick> why is the range [25, 35] in one, and [40, 50] in the other?
16:30:34 <_glx_> because my settings are not default 🙂
16:30:42 <xarick> ah, ah, ok makes sense
16:31:58 <_glx_> and for pathfinder profile it's probably the effect of EASY/MEDIUM/HARD removal
16:32:35 <xarick> was it converted to random deviation somehow?
16:32:58 <_glx_> it's MEDIUM + deviation based on HARD and EASY
16:33:34 <xarick> oh 😦 that wasn't supposed to deviate if you had it as non-random ai
16:34:28 <xarick> or, should I say, I miss CONFIG_RANDOM
16:48:18 <jfs> quote from another forum:
16:48:18 <jfs> > Played it for a bit yesterday and I'm still getting used to there only being path signals and one way path signals; a change that apparently happened in OpenTTD three years ago. Definitely seems a lot easier to handle signals now.
16:48:18 <jfs> some people DO like the change!
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16:48:45 <peter1138[d]> They're the quietest.
17:00:54 <locosage> how does hiding some signals make them easier to handle?
17:01:17 <locosage> block signals were too enticing? 🤭
17:04:17 <peter1138[d]> It guides users who don't realise that they don't need to be used.
17:05:57 <Rubidium> something like the paradox of choice or choice overload
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17:23:20 <gebik4544> Well I have an issue...
17:24:41 <gebik4544> andythenorth: 's GS Bee Reward seems to be broken with randomness removal...
17:28:38 <peter1138[d]> Sneaky TTDPatch, using a negative value to select food instead of goods...
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17:30:49 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, actually I have an idea that might work better for that one.
17:32:26 <_glx_> gebik4544: no it very badly uses strings
17:34:54 <peter1138[d]> Randomness wasn't removed, afaik.
17:35:18 <_glx_> CONFIG_RANDOM was, but it's totally unrelated 🙂
17:36:30 <_glx_> hmm I should start 13.4 to see what it would print
17:37:16 <peter1138[d]> Seems to work in 13.4
17:37:28 <peter1138[d]> Shows the correct industry name in the goal list.
17:40:23 <_glx_> STR_COMPANY_GOAL_REWARD :Deliver {GOLD}{CARGO_LONG} {ORANGE}to {STRING}{ORANGE} for {WHITE}{STRING}{CURRENCY_LONG}
17:40:37 <_glx_> guess it's just luck if it worked before 🙂
17:41:16 <peter1138[d]> What should a GS author be doing instead?
17:41:52 <peter1138[d]> We seem to accept-with-warning some cases of it being wrong, this one seems to kill it.
17:41:53 <_glx_> the proper thing is STR_COMPANY_GOAL_REWARD :Deliver {GOLD}{CARGO_LONG} {ORANGE}to {STRING1}{ORANGE} for {WHITE}{CURRENCY_LONG}
17:43:14 <_glx_> the extra {STRING} was to "fix" the string to display the currency value
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17:44:37 <_glx_> so the extra {STRING} would try to display string <industryid>
17:44:38 <peter1138[d]> I suppose a better way would be to have separate reward strings and not rely on sub-strings for the industry/town part.
17:46:02 <djdive> How does one try to understand the way the game is engineered? I have cloned the repo and can compile a working copy of it, but want to start understanding the structure/ architecture of it and is perplexed:(
17:46:45 <_glx_> filenames are a good hint
17:47:31 <LordAro> there's a few bits and pieces in the docs folder
17:47:43 <LordAro> and the CONTRIBUTING.md file of course
17:47:51 <LordAro> but nothing much dedicated to it
17:48:31 <_glx_> let's see if I can improve validation again
17:50:20 <Rubidium> I think the first thing to consider is that it isn't really architected, but about 20 years of evolution from ludde's C code and the way of doing things has changed over time as well
17:50:55 <_glx_> I guess I could remove the throw and just output an error and put a safe value
17:53:56 <_jgr_> The real validation happens at the string printing stage anyway, so wrong/nonsense paraneters will just print "(invalid parameter)"
17:54:40 <_jgr_> As GS/AI strings are sent over the network the receiver can never just assume that they're correct
18:01:23 <djdive> Should I start by looking at makefile or something?
18:03:56 <LordAro> given the makefile is autogenerated by cmake, i wouldn't recommend it
18:04:05 <LordAro> unless you want to learn about cmake / build system internals
18:07:18 <talltyler> Is your curiosity just academic or do you want to contribute? I learned the most by just digging into making PRs — you learn a little bit at a time in a targeted way, and eventually you get a pretty good idea of the overall structure.
18:10:32 <djdive> I have some experience in DevOps and Network Engineer. I love the game and wish SRNWs had premade templates. I want to contribute.
18:11:36 <jfs> pull requests are submissions of proposed changes to the code
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18:14:16 <locosage> talltyler: what's the proper way to get amount of ticks in a period now?
18:14:28 <locosage> that should be a constant if I understand it right...
18:15:10 <locosage> hm, not period but whatever is month now...
18:20:44 <xarick> is it about february 29?
18:22:45 <xarick> hmm, savegame conversion
18:22:52 <xarick> let's test glx's method
18:26:32 <frosch123> what a waste of time
18:26:52 <frosch123> that's the person who requested user migration two days ago for their single scenario
18:27:02 <frosch123> now they complained they could not find the delete button
18:27:26 <frosch123> it's a stupid digimon anime scenario, probably made by a 10 year-old
18:27:57 <frosch123> maybe they run for some political office and are worried about getting their weirdo childhood exposed :p
18:32:05 <frosch123> michi gets a bonus for recruiting more people to github
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18:35:51 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:36:01 <michi_cc[d]> Eh, but is anyone planning on doing a beta3? I have a good idea for the news post, but that requires actual news in form of beta 3 😛
18:37:12 <andythenorth> gebik4544: that's not mine 🙂
18:37:45 <gebik4544> andythenorth: you are in author list
18:37:50 <peter1138[d]> There's a few more fixes to do yet 🙂
18:39:30 <peter1138[d]> I'm seeing if I can do some unit tests in the wake of messing everything up...
19:05:18 <truebrain> frosch123: ugh indeed @ PR
19:05:46 <truebrain> maybe update the description so it reads it was on request of the author
19:05:57 <truebrain> owh, it is in topic
19:06:06 <truebrain> It is like emails that are fully covered in the subject
19:06:08 <truebrain> I never read that 😛
19:07:02 <frosch123> i knew one person who appended "(eom)" to email subjects, if there was no further text
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19:10:28 <michi_cc[d]> peter1138[d]: Well, unless somebody is just dying to write a news post, I'll still put something up before I forget my idea.
19:10:28 <michi_cc[d]> Shall I put the date to tomorrow, just to create some nice managerial pressure? 🤣
19:11:38 <truebrain> Sorry Rubidium, I couldn't resist to be a bit more pro-active in my approach there 😄
19:12:07 <truebrain> please forgive me 🙂
19:20:01 <peter1138[d]> Re #11993, I don't know if that suggestion was a good suggestion... was just an idea 🙂
19:20:41 <truebrain> I don't know either; but I am just being protective of the good name of eints 😛
19:20:56 <truebrain> of all the shitty things it is, some things it actually does well 🙂
19:21:37 <peter1138[d]> You are right though, I've never seen it 🙂
19:21:56 <truebrain> you are a bit harder to just assign to a team like I did with Rb 😛
19:22:20 <truebrain> given en_GB is the main language 😄
19:23:00 <peter1138[d]> Doesn't need to be English 🙂
19:23:12 <truebrain> lolz, there are still languages not assigned any translators ... oof
19:24:07 <peter1138[d]> Didn't we have piglatin once?
19:24:47 <truebrain> didn't we throw away some unfinished languages at some point?
19:26:40 <truebrain> we used to have this `unfinished` thing ofc ... which now is just a dynamic "if not more than N% translated, hide it"
19:26:53 <frosch123> they are now all "fininished" and compiled
19:27:08 <frosch123> release builds will hide translations below some compleness thredholds
19:27:30 <frosch123> but i did not delete any translations
19:28:45 <truebrain> if not you, someone else; as we used to have piglatin, and we don't anymore! 😄
19:28:49 <truebrain> so now ofc I need to know who 😛
19:29:13 <frosch123> yes, rb removed all fake languages without isocode
19:29:27 <frosch123> we also removed the "original engines" language, and turned it into a newgrf
19:31:24 <truebrain> it is surprisingly hard to find when a file was removed
19:31:34 <truebrain> between 0.7 and 1.0, that is the easy part
19:31:46 <frosch123> 2008-11-24 was the last translation update to it
19:32:28 <andythenorth> powerline ethernet eh
19:32:31 <andythenorth> slower than wifi
19:32:51 <frosch123> `git log --all -- src/lang/piglatin.txt`
19:33:07 <truebrain> did not know that trick
19:33:22 <frosch123> hmm, doesn't answer it though
19:34:12 <truebrain> doesn't record its deletion, it seems 😄
19:34:46 <truebrain> 05e5f80ebd2c57333b9783b50ae1cdca51eab9a1 removes it
19:34:53 <truebrain> just in a random WT commit
19:34:58 <truebrain> not even a mention of why, by who
19:35:06 <peter1138[d]> Wow, what a... useful... diversion I've led you on...
19:35:25 <truebrain> (it is sad that you can't see my face, as I am actually smiley from ear to ear 😛 )
19:36:13 <truebrain> not surprising I couldn't find the commit 🙂
19:36:41 <truebrain> 10 languages without any translators; hefty
19:37:28 <frosch123> btw, i plan to kick all "translators", who signed-up over a year ago, and never translated anything
19:37:40 <truebrain> I was looking into the same 😄
19:37:43 <frosch123> we listed some languages as "full" to discourage more people signing up
19:37:51 <frosch123> but that makes no sense if they are all idlers
19:38:08 <frosch123> i think i already has a script for it
19:38:39 <truebrain> I will leave you do it in that case 🙂
19:38:48 <truebrain> I would also remove anyone not translated in ... 3 years?
19:40:02 <frosch123> a few people signed up, who were active 10 years ago
19:40:17 <frosch123> i would keep people, who have some credits on some translations
19:42:02 <frosch123> the piglatin thing was discussed in the dev irc channel, but i was offline at that point
19:42:15 <frosch123> i only noticed it during an "svn update" on that day
19:42:27 <truebrain> just funny how it was just ... "gone" 😛
19:42:35 <truebrain> nobody ever complained about it, so ..
19:42:40 <frosch123> `[Wed Jun 17 2009] [20:51:59] <frosch123> lol, someone silently removed piglatin :p`
19:42:53 <truebrain> it was really silent, yes 🙂
19:42:54 <frosch123> exactly, that was already funny back then
19:43:32 <frosch123> next discussion topic was about removing `{SETXY}` :p
19:44:03 <peter1138[d]> I don't remember that one.
19:44:24 <truebrain> peter1138[d]: / Rubidium: in case you are really interested in what saving and "Get Next String" does, https://translator-preview.openttd.org is the staging system for eints, which you can freely change in any way shape or form without the content being committed back to master
19:44:30 <truebrain> so you can actually make changes there without impact
19:44:58 <truebrain> (and there is a reason why only de_DE and nl_NL are "complete" there 😛 Might be because of the people testing things 😄 )
19:45:46 <truebrain> can we make an LLM to translate for some of those languages? 😄
19:46:08 <truebrain> frosch123: I don't have logs of dev-channel from 2009 available to me; bah 😛
19:47:48 <truebrain> hmm .. I believe we do commit preview to somewhere .. what repo would that be ...
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19:49:18 <truebrain> 12% of BaNaNaS traffic is still 14.0-betas .. that is pretty steady
19:56:35 <peter1138[d]> 18:13:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r16596 /trunk/src/saveload/oldloader_sl.cpp: -Fix (r16378): there were several hundreds of empty signs above tile 0 after loading TTO/TTD savegame
19:57:11 <truebrain> haha, CIA, that is really old 😄
20:00:06 <truebrain> -any-, talltyler , you don't have any? Pfff
20:01:36 <talltyler> If you want to feel old… I started playing OpenTTD in 2017 😛
20:01:50 <truebrain> Another month, and my first commit was 20 years ago 🙂
20:02:16 <truebrain> well, I did not make the commit .. it was one by proxy 😛
20:02:17 <peter1138[d]> I'm still a newbie.
20:03:54 <talltyler> I will get to #11197 soon, but not today so I wouldn’t wait to release beta3
20:04:04 <michi_cc[d]> truebrain: Do you still want to do a beta2 post on Steam, or are we putting the blanket of silence over it?
20:04:19 <truebrain> owh, good reminder, totally forgot
20:04:29 <talltyler> Why not wait until beta3?
20:04:52 <michi_cc[d]> See, where's the BIG project manager for OpenTTD? 🤣
20:05:05 <truebrain> talltyler: more posts better engagement 🙂
20:05:19 <michi_cc[d]> talltyler: Well, it is released in the testing branch with ot without a news message.
20:06:25 <michi_cc[d]> We're doing PR know. I think engagement is our KPI 🙂
20:07:14 <truebrain> eagerly awaiting talltyler 's blog 🙂
20:11:19 <_glx_> xarick: randomizers are not stored, they are reinitialised on load using main randomizer (the Random() one) which is stored in the save because it's important for network sync
20:11:39 <_glx_> but when you load, you always get the same result
20:12:16 <peter1138[d]> Why does AI randomisation matter for network sync?
20:12:35 <_glx_> it doesn't, that's why it's not saved
20:15:50 <_glx_> ScriptObject::InitializeRandomizers() uses _random on load to reinit, and it's fine because AI and GS run only on server
20:17:33 <_glx_> hmm actually it might be a problem
20:19:40 <truebrain> you too, are getting old 😛
20:19:54 <truebrain> ah, yes, the days you were building AIs 🙂
20:21:54 <LordAro> back when i had absolutely no idea what i was doing and was constructing patch files by hand
20:22:07 <truebrain> wait, you did what?
20:22:26 <LordAro> well i couldn't make commits with svn, remember
20:22:42 <LordAro> and hadn't yet figured out how hg/git worked
20:22:47 <truebrain> no, but subversion did allow you to pipe diffs to a file 🙂
20:22:59 <_glx_> it was so easy to break builds at svn time
20:23:03 <LordAro> i don't think i'd figured that out either
20:23:16 <truebrain> oof ... well, you came along way 😄
20:23:27 <peter1138[d]> How #11993 is done could potentially also be a model for the list translation that we got stuck on last time.
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20:23:58 <truebrain> peter1138[d]: list translations?
20:26:21 <michi_cc[d]> Oct 3, 2005 `a3d40a29fc (svn r3008) [ 1247535 ] Native Support for Win64 (compile&run only) (michi_cc)`
20:27:50 <peter1138[d]> Ah, #11387 was the attempt
20:28:09 <truebrain> can't believe we are at 12000 already
20:28:24 <peter1138[d]> All those bug reports from the betas :p
20:33:41 <_glx_> but I just re-sent the invitation
20:34:10 <truebrain> but he needed access NOW, he couldn't wait 2 minutes for your reply to happen 😄
20:35:10 <michi_cc[d]> It's probably more than the comment was understood as "please re-apply".
20:35:33 <truebrain> michi_cc[d]: Fair enough, that is not unlikely
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20:37:06 <frosch123> eints queries the membership only once on login. so it's important that people login to eints after they accepted their team membership
20:37:23 <xarick> _glx_: desyncs when starting up companies?
20:42:09 <_glx_> ScriptObject::InitializeRandomizers() does 19 _random.Next() at the end of AfterLoadGame()
20:42:24 <_glx_> but Random() is also _random.Next()
20:43:57 <truebrain> funny, dependabot doesn't always tell when it ignores a dependency ... it just happens to be that I remember it might have been ignored, that I could unignore it, but nowhere it told me it was ignored.
20:44:30 <truebrain> really many signups ... nice 🙂
20:45:20 <truebrain> that would make 15 `tr_TR` 😄
20:45:28 <truebrain> how is the cleanup going frosch123 ? 🙂
20:45:56 <frosch123> oh, you want it today?
20:46:22 <truebrain> you just said: I have a script
20:46:26 <truebrain> so I was like: done in 10 minutes 😄
20:46:30 <truebrain> but .. it is fine 🙂
20:46:59 <truebrain> kuhnovic: how much do you like writing? Fancy writing a blog post about a bit more in-depth how the new ship PF works, and how much you don't need buoys anymore? 🙂
20:47:28 <kuhnovic> truebrain: I like writing, I'd love that!
20:48:00 <_glx_> xarick: it just to add some randomness to the start delay
20:48:10 <truebrain> no real rush or anything, but somewhere between now and 14.0 would be cool 🙂
20:48:47 <frosch123> i have a script, but the output was different:
20:48:51 <kuhnovic> I'll find some time for it. Thanks!
20:48:59 <frosch123> every line is a translator, you can see sign-up date, and activity
20:49:33 <frosch123> those with a long horizontal line were active before github
20:49:37 <truebrain> what is whitespace?
20:49:48 <frosch123> those with only a dot, only signed up, and never did anything after
20:50:00 <truebrain> and when it is blank after signup?
20:50:25 <xarick> there is the small chance of random deviation being applied in a delayed order in network, at least I suspect it
20:50:51 <truebrain> so the light colour is when they did something? blank is no activity? So what is the gray?
20:50:54 <frosch123> it's a text file. one row per translator, one column per month
20:51:29 <frosch123> a white line is an ctive translator
20:51:54 <_glx_> xarick: Script run on server only
20:51:54 <frosch123> a black line with a single white dot is someone who only wanted the badge
20:51:56 <truebrain> owh, empty is no activity, gray is "they were once active, but aren't now", and white is when they did something?
20:53:01 <truebrain> so some people signed up, did nothing for months, then did one translation, and were out?
20:53:10 <xarick> it sends the command to start companies, it might start the AI right away, or delay till next tick, and in-between that timeout runs a Next
20:53:45 <frosch123> some people were never active, some for two months after sign-up, some were idling for a year and then active once
20:54:14 <truebrain> seems your output is a bit inconsistent, or I still don't get it, but there are lines that are only grey after the X .. I would expect blank there, if they did nothing?
20:54:22 <truebrain> (trying to understand, not blaming your script 😄 )
20:54:41 <frosch123> well, my editor show trailing whitespace :p
20:54:50 <frosch123> it's just a screenshot from the editor
20:54:54 <truebrain> trailing whitespaces
20:55:06 <truebrain> yeah, you weren't really answering my questioning about it, so I was guessing 😄
20:55:20 <truebrain> so about 50% never translates anything
20:55:25 <_glx_> xarick: it's not an issue, as long as a random deviation happens
20:55:30 <frosch123> either way, i want a csv with: name, sign-up date, first-active, last-active, num-translations
20:55:47 <truebrain> well, you almost have that information 🙂
20:56:08 <frosch123> i think the script has it, i just do not print it :p
20:56:33 <truebrain> now let's see if I can see if the 14.0 clients still use TCP, or that we finally address that issue 🙂
20:57:04 <truebrain> (context: BaNaNaS 😛 )
20:58:37 <xarick> I'm inclined to remove the randomizer there in case of network game
20:59:42 <xarick> but not sure how reproducible network games are when scripts are involved, if that is something you pursuit
21:00:27 <xarick> at least from what I gathered from Rubidium manifest, that was the goal
21:02:53 <truebrain> okay .. data is arriving nicely; now I just need to wait, to see how much traffic 14.0 clients are generating over TCP 😄
21:03:01 <truebrain> hopefully is ia very low number 😄
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21:06:45 <xarick> _new_competitor_timeout.Reset(std::max(1, timeout)); will likely be different between server/client, but then again, only the server can start the company and run deviate when it happens. Probably fine.
21:08:07 <truebrain> multiplayer stats also look really good these days ... in < 0.1% of the cases the client and server can't be paired
21:08:28 <truebrain> only 5% uses IPv6 .. that is a bit sad
21:09:32 <truebrain> people upgraded to beta2 quick btw .. beta1 is almost nowhere to be seen anymore
21:09:47 <truebrain> about 1/20th of the multiplayer traffic is the 14.0-beta2
21:10:19 <truebrain> an average TURN session takes ~40 minutes
21:10:47 <truebrain> and slowly invite-only games gain traction 🙂
21:11:21 <truebrain> owh, lol 5% of the connections are done based on IPv6, but 35% of the connections support IPv6 🙂
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21:16:55 <frosch123> ok, i got the csv i wanted.
21:17:12 <frosch123> some translators work in chunks, some work an-apple-a-day
21:17:35 <frosch123> for example, glx was active on 40 days, while telk was active on 333 days
21:17:54 <_glx_> xarick: reproducibility is mainly for local development of the script
21:18:45 <_glx_> like regression test, it's just a savegame with an AI
21:19:14 <_glx_> and every decision should be the same
21:20:18 <_glx_> frosch123: hehe but french is usually quite up-to-date
21:21:36 <frosch123> ah crap, some translators have names which do not match `\w`
21:23:03 <xarick> AIs do completely different things in a network environment
21:23:25 <xarick> even without human input, they are constrained by the network queue
21:24:17 <xarick> what they do in single player differs to what they do in multiplayer
21:27:25 <truebrain> Okay peter1138[d] , that was kinda funny I guessed correctly it was beta1 😛
21:27:40 <truebrain> Sometimes people are predictable 🙂
21:28:46 <_glx_> differences between single player and multiplayer are unavoidable
21:29:31 <truebrain> _glx_: Wait, they are not the same?!
21:30:50 <_glx_> more player actions can happen in a single tick
21:31:17 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, hope my UPS doesn't start beeping overnight again 😒
21:31:41 <truebrain> So happy I live in a country where an UPS is not very useful
21:31:54 <_glx_> network is not a proper base for script debugging
21:32:48 <truebrain> Okay, my BaNaNaS version stats doesn't actually work in a useful way 😦
21:33:11 <truebrain> Most users seem to take 30s before starting a download, disconnecting the connection before, or something
21:35:22 <xarick> gonna retest my piece of work, to validate if it still works
21:35:33 <peter1138[d]> github is being whack for me :/
21:37:31 <andythenorth> if you leave discord audio running, we could all say 'beep' at random times?
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21:38:39 <peter1138[d]> truebrain: I don't remember it ever being *useful*
21:39:22 <truebrain> Well, kinda good, but still
21:41:13 <peter1138[d]> But it's more work to unplug everything and move it than just press the silence button every couple of weeks :p
21:42:56 <peter1138[d]> Pretty sure it's bed time andy.
21:43:05 <andythenorth> you are about right
21:43:20 <andythenorth> been a long work day, haven't watched TV either 😛
21:43:31 <andythenorth> brain fried, no decompression 😛
21:43:40 <andythenorth> maybe I need a dog
21:43:56 <peter1138[d]> I was going to do some mountain biking... 3 hours ago.
21:44:11 <andythenorth> I should at least do some weights and squats, just can't be arsed
21:44:18 <peter1138[d]> My dog has spent half the day licking my chair. It doesn't help.
21:44:33 <andythenorth> maybe I'll write a changelog about tiny pixel trains 🙂
21:44:42 <andythenorth> that will get me away from this screen right?
21:47:17 <xarick> can I... *ahem* do a counter PR for #12003? it doesn't involve savegame bump.
21:47:47 <xarick> but afraid such proposition gonna get ppl angry
21:48:30 <peter1138[d]> Usually confused, not angry 🙂
21:50:58 <andythenorth> anger is not common
21:51:26 <andythenorth> lots of snark, irritation, puzzlement, lack of social skills
21:54:48 <truebrain> Hihi, I read "shark", and now baby shark is in my head 😄
21:56:02 <_glx_> they will display "garbage" but they will run 🙂
21:56:45 <_glx_> truebrain: I hate you now 🙂
21:58:03 <xarick> it's a little bit hacky
21:58:25 <xarick> simulates deviation just to keep randomizers in sync
22:01:05 <xarick> it's simulated when switch mode is detected as restartgame
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22:19:05 <Rubidium> truebrain: can you assign me to some other language with way more untranslated strings?
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22:21:06 <truebrain> Rubidium: Sure! Wanted to do de, but that is not helping
22:21:17 <truebrain> So you now have en-US
22:22:08 <truebrain> Believe that has 4000 untranslated strings on preview
22:22:24 <truebrain> We can also change the preview to include any string you like
22:23:54 <_glx_> oh ScriptObject::InitializeRandomizers doesn't use _random, but a copy of _random, my reading was wrong
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22:33:10 <truebrain> Rubidium: That would be really bad. Let me walk the code for a bit
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22:38:44 <truebrain> Wauw, okay .. I stand corrected, the behaviour is only predictable in certain cases.. in others it literally takes strings at random
22:38:56 <truebrain> That is really bad, as context is everything with translations
22:42:32 <truebrain> When there are few untranslated strings, it is in order of english
22:42:41 <truebrain> Otherwise it is complete random
22:42:54 <truebrain> Explains why I never experienced it ...
22:44:16 <_glx_> yeah random is quite annoying when you have many related strings to translate
22:44:35 <_glx_> and a bunch of unrelated
22:44:40 <truebrain> It is fine it is a bit random, but it should handle similar strings first
22:46:35 <truebrain> Still good it is now based on actual experience instead of assumptions 😄
22:47:10 <truebrain> The heuristics applied in eints atm is weird and expensive .. oof .. that is easily improved
22:47:43 <peter1138[d]> Give a couple of days, TrueBrain'll have rewritten it.
22:48:14 <truebrain> It is really overengineered, eints .. it is really hard to understand what is going on
22:48:31 <_glx_> I only know where to add string commands 🙂
22:48:37 <truebrain> But things like this are just .... why have different behaviour like this 😦
22:49:11 <truebrain> It makes me look like a fool for one, but also, why?!
22:49:37 <truebrain> It fetches related strings nicely .. then to not do anything with it 😦
22:52:24 <_glx_> xarick: based on this report, I'd say everything works as intended with my PR
22:53:37 <_glx_> since randomisers are not saved but initialised after load
22:56:03 <_glx_> there's always the option to add a new savegame chunk
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23:11:59 <peter1138[d]> That didn't close it 😮
23:14:34 <_glx_> it doesn't close if the commit doesn't mention the issue number (requires "Fixes #XXX" mention in the PR description in this case)
23:14:55 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, thought a comment was enough. Oh well.
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23:17:45 <truebrain> Oof, eints code really is hard to understand .. was hoping to use the order of the English text to know what the best next string is, but that isn't stored in a place I can find .. but okay, there is an easier alternative
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23:18:30 <truebrain> I understand that going full random through the translation keeps things spicy, but there are limits .. so weird ..
23:19:10 <truebrain> And still annoyed that when I tested it, they were in order 😦
23:19:21 <truebrain> (But only a few untranslated :P)
23:19:35 <_glx_> string id alphabetic order could already help
23:20:05 <_glx_> groups usually start with the same prefix
23:20:14 <truebrain> I think it deliberately doesn't, to avoid fatigue or something
23:20:31 <truebrain> But we are annoyingly inconsistent with our postfixes
23:21:03 <truebrain> Our newline usages is the best indicator 😛
23:21:40 <_glx_> I tend to add extra {} in tooltip translations
23:22:31 <_glx_> especially when there's mention of ctrl, shift, ...
23:24:04 <truebrain> We have _RED and _DARK_BLUE
23:24:12 <truebrain> So using _ kinda works
23:24:35 <truebrain> But sometimes we are "funny" and just add even more _ for the same set of strings 😛
23:26:13 <truebrain> Somewhere it must have stored the newlines, as it can generate the translation with the exact same newlines
23:26:33 <truebrain> But so much abstraction over abstraction
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continue to next day ⏵
