IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-12-10
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00:20:37 <xarick> but it's approaching the overflow
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02:49:55 <belajalilija> until it is fixed inflation should be hidden in some way imo
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03:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> which "it" needs to be "fixed"?
03:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause> emperorjake: honestly, those sim city 2000 style "diagonal" roads look horrible.
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04:04:07 <emperorjake> They look good when vehicles travel on them properly. Much better than building the traditional roads in zig-zag. Also there would be a roadtype flag so that the player can choose to build traditional or diagonal roads.
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08:00:19 <andythenorth> peter1138: me too
08:25:46 <andythenorth> eh....what's this?
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10:02:03 <andythenorth> I remember seeing conditional orders used in openttdcoop a long time ago
10:02:16 <andythenorth> self-regulating networks or so
10:02:34 <andythenorth> is it turing complete?
10:08:57 <peter1138> Oh, clean rebuild required.
10:12:38 <peter1138[d]> What. Have. I. Done.
10:14:18 <peter1138> The lines look much darker when that yellow outline is changed to black.
10:20:06 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: You have put FIRS 5 in your grf list, that's what 😛
10:20:51 <andythenorth> could the cargo name also act as a click target?
10:21:13 <peter1138[d]> But just not a button appearance.
10:21:44 <andythenorth> hmm, inconsistent
10:21:54 <peter1138[d]> You can even click on cargos that aren't drawn heh.
10:22:29 <andythenorth> does the click have to be precisely on the pixel of the font?
10:22:36 <andythenorth> I can make it fail sometimes, but I can't figure out the cause
10:22:53 <andythenorth> I was expecting a rect, like html 😛
10:23:21 <peter1138[d]> I believe it goes all the way across.
10:24:00 <peter1138[d]> Heh, cargo icons...
10:24:49 <andythenorth> I am going to pretend I don't notice the failed clicks
10:24:54 <andythenorth> repro will be too fiddly
10:24:58 <andythenorth> I am choosing train names currently
10:25:28 <andythenorth> cargo icons in an overlay layer on the map (similar to cdist cargoflow), but showing accept / supply?
10:25:43 <andythenorth> also stacking them above stations 😛
10:28:40 <andythenorth> what, wait, my GPT 4 can now search the internet?
10:28:48 <andythenorth> so it's like bing, but with more unreliability?
10:28:54 <andythenorth> and a worse interface?
10:29:19 <andythenorth> and incredibly slow
10:29:30 <andythenorth> and probably using 10x as much electricity per query
10:36:40 <peter1138[d]> Not sure why there's less padding that with FIRS
10:37:14 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: dunno, seems ok in a screenshot
10:37:29 <peter1138[d]> So it's a 'search engine' that makes things up.
10:37:47 <andythenorth> I mean...for game design, the invention element is useful 🙂
10:37:51 <andythenorth> but it just blithely lies
10:38:04 <andythenorth> does the padding scale by number of cargos?
10:40:16 <peter1138> I think it might be "max connected cargos", and that's only 3 for vanilla, but $manylots for FIRS.
10:42:31 <peter1138> I think the vanilla sizes just happen to not overlap.
10:49:37 <peter1138> I tried playing the Doom WAD "Not Even Remotely Fair", and... it lives up to its name.
10:50:26 <andythenorth> is that the one with huge rectangular rooms full of demons?
10:51:26 <peter1138> It's Nightmare-only and the 4 pistol guys at start wipe me out :p
10:53:50 <peter1138[d]> More reasonable.
10:53:58 <andythenorth> I didn't find an M1 build of Doom yet
10:54:06 <andythenorth> and I think PRBoom didn't launch
10:54:29 <andythenorth> wait, it's a rule that every platform has a Doom port?
10:54:34 <andythenorth> there must be an M1 build somewhere
10:54:45 <andythenorth> someone had it running on the stupid touchbar on older macs
10:54:57 <andythenorth> and the watch thing
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10:59:02 <andythenorth> hmm this port has auto-run turned on
10:59:06 <andythenorth> I am not that good 😛
10:59:29 <peter1138> Should we implement mod tracker support?
10:59:56 <peter1138> > DUMB is a tracker library with support for IT, XM, S3M and MOD files.
11:00:19 <peter1138> I'm building dsda-doom, because my build is old.
11:00:30 <peter1138> And dsda is the port I like at the moment.
11:01:07 <andythenorth> mine seems to be GZDoom
11:01:45 <peter1138> That's basically multiplayer only.
11:01:55 <Artea> got my passworded Slaughterfest server there
11:02:22 <Artea> is just heavily to multiplayer
11:02:34 <Artea> you can single player tho
11:03:06 <Artea> good thing of ZDaemon is ZDIRC
11:03:15 <Artea> with Discord implemented
11:03:55 <peter1138> Oh, savegame is not compatible :o
11:04:34 <Artea> I have some vids on my YT when I streamed Slaughterfest 2012
11:12:04 <peter1138> Their YouTube channel is very... memey.
11:16:39 <Artea> I stopped to play MU-Online
11:16:52 <Artea> so now I have more will to do other stuff
11:23:09 <andythenorth> /me naming trains
11:29:04 <peter1138> Okay, Sigil 2 is... kinda hard :p
11:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "literally unplayable" bugs again?
11:43:09 <xarick> what's the difference between "if" and "if and only if"?
11:43:36 <xarick> doesn't it mean the same thing?
11:44:35 <xarick> my english fails maybe?
11:45:15 <xarick> why is the reinforcement needed to be spelt?
11:52:57 <_zephyris> This can happen if that happens _vs_ this always happens if that happens
11:55:26 <andythenorth> "X is true because A", but also "X is true because B" is ```if```
11:55:43 <andythenorth> "X is true only when A" is ```iff```
11:57:12 <xarick> oh, this is related to logic discipline, which I was horrible at back when I was a student
12:00:05 <xarick> the Distinction section left me even more confused
12:04:21 <xarick> those explanations ... ugh... it looks like they're trying to apply logic to a badly structured sentence
12:04:37 <xarick> it's clearly not my domain
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12:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> "i don't go out if it rains" still lets me choose to stay indoors if it doesn't rain
12:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "i don't go out iff it rains" means i must go out immediately when the rain stops
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12:24:08 <peter1138> Speaking of which...
13:12:10 <_glx_> hmm bottom of the window still needs work it seems
13:12:44 <_glx_> why not have the row of buttons on the same level as resize ?
13:13:33 <peter1138> For now consistency.
13:14:46 <_glx_> anyway resize button is a major problem in this window, where ever it's placed it will seem off
13:15:32 <peter1138> It's the same for content download, gamescript settings and newgrf settings, and the in-game graph window too.
13:17:16 <peter1138> If we want to change this design style, we should apply it to all. For the moment I'm just making it consistent.
13:21:33 <peter1138> Oh, newgrf sprite aligner too :)
13:22:02 <peter1138> I had one though of just removing the bevel of the resize box on these windows. A bit weird but might work.
13:22:47 <peter1138> That's an example of moving the bottom row of buttons onto the resize-button line.
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13:23:11 <peter1138> Normally the button colour would match too, but then they disappear compared to the other buttons.
13:27:26 <peter1138> That's with the resize box's bevels hidden.
13:31:47 <xarick> max noise overflowed, too bad I didn't capture it in video nor made a savegame
13:34:04 <_glx_> I like the non bevel version
13:34:58 <xarick> now waiting for noise_reached to overflow
13:35:08 <xarick> if it can, I guess it can't
13:35:30 <_glx_> it can't because max will always be lower now
13:36:33 <_glx_> how many game years and how much money needed to trigger the overflow ?
13:38:04 <xarick> on my badly optimised GS, 19 years
13:39:12 <peter1138> _glx_, yeah, it still looks a bit odd, but keeps the general styling. I think the merged-bottom-row styling is quite jarring here, given the rest of the 'sparse' layout going on.
13:39:51 <_glx_> at least with non bevel we get a nice clean border around
13:40:02 <peter1138> I guess I'll do a proper version of no-bevel for WWT_RESIZE, this was just a quick hack to demo it :D
13:40:30 <_glx_> and still have the resizable marker
13:45:22 <andythenorth> peter1138[d]: this one is good
13:46:19 <talltyler> Yes I like that too
14:03:37 <peter1138> Oops, that first screen shot went wrong :D
14:05:55 <peter1138> That's several less overlapping bevels \o/
14:06:49 <peter1138> Oh, I should do the graph windows too. oops.
14:07:05 <peter1138> They arse not using the sparse_resize dimension, so I missed them.
14:11:26 <andythenorth> Less. Chunky. Bevels?
14:11:56 <andythenorth> this has bothered me for a long time
14:11:58 <peter1138> Less overlapping chunky bevels.
14:12:16 <peter1138> That's a separate issue which is nothing to do with this :p
14:12:26 <andythenorth> I know, I am counting pixels and not seeing a solution
14:12:37 <andythenorth> presumably the height of the drag box is font-dependent?
14:13:38 <peter1138> There's also the alternative wonkyness.
14:14:06 <peter1138> That one makes the scrollbar too wde...
14:14:08 <andythenorth> I think it's best to unsee these 😛
14:14:25 <peter1138[d]> And yes. Yours is... not ideal either.
14:14:29 <andythenorth> macOS no longer has drag boxes 😛
14:14:47 <peter1138[d]> Anyway, actually
14:14:54 <andythenorth> I enjoy as well that the scrollbar has no edge
14:15:06 <peter1138[d]> Now that the pressed-button shift has gone, we could reduce the resize box to match the scrollbar width.
14:15:32 <peter1138[d]> I have all these "don't show the scrollbar until you're hovering over it" designs.
14:15:37 <peter1138[d]> Along with making the scrollbar 3 pixels wide...
14:16:02 <LordAro> is making the scrollbar 3 pixels wider such a huge issue?
14:16:04 <andythenorth> the world doesn't contain One Ultimate Scrollbar Design
14:16:11 <andythenorth> scrollbars are survivable
14:16:20 <andythenorth> macOS ones look like this now
14:16:43 <peter1138> LordAro, 3 pixels wide in total.
14:17:13 <andythenorth> these were the best ones
14:17:31 <andythenorth> although it was optional to have them proportional
14:17:37 <andythenorth> quite a religious debate at the time
14:17:44 <andythenorth> emacs vs. vi level
14:17:57 <andythenorth> along with 'icons kept arranged by the OS' or not
14:18:54 <andythenorth> when did you last scroll with a scrollbar?
14:19:06 <andythenorth> I just use them for eyeballing window scroll position
14:19:20 <peter1138> Mouse wheel scroll is impractical if you want to go move than a screenful or two.
14:19:35 <peter1138> Touchpads probably do it better, but I'm not a laptop user.
14:20:16 <andythenorth> yeah, flick inertia
14:20:22 <andythenorth> harder on a clicky scrollwheel
14:20:44 <andythenorth> no actually I do use scrollbar on OpenTTD
14:20:50 <andythenorth> not so much on native macOS apps
14:21:55 <andythenorth> Xerox star is best
14:22:19 <andythenorth> where the arrows aren't even aligned
14:22:38 <andythenorth> Win XP ones are actually nice
14:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes scrolling with wheel is impractical, and pgup/pgdown depend on weird window focus stuff, then i scroll bar.
14:24:28 <peter1138> I guess technically they haven't got smaller. They just haven't got larger as we made screens bigger and put larger fonts on things.
14:24:35 <peter1138> I'm just getting old, clearly.
14:24:43 <peter1138> (Although browser scrollbars are definitely smaller)
14:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> scroll bars definitely got smaller
14:27:19 <peter1138> Also, even if I'm not actually clicking on it, it is useful to look at to see where I am in the page.
14:27:24 <peter1138> Browsers now make that impossible.
14:32:55 <xarick> peter1138[d]: could I ask you to make AI/Game Script Debug log to have a word wrap option?
14:34:02 <peter1138> andythenorth, what was that first window, with "ext"?
14:35:58 <xarick> interesting phenomenom
14:37:49 <peter1138> Town zone radius changes?
14:38:09 <LordAro> town zones do get a bit weird with the massively large cities
14:38:13 <peter1138> WD_CLOSEBOX_LEFT = 2, ///< Left offset of closebox string.
14:38:24 <peter1138> Funny -- it's not been a string for YEARS.
14:38:58 <peter1138> In real life such a large city would only have formed from multiple smaller towns.
14:39:13 <peter1138> So you'd have multiple urban centres and such like.
14:40:07 <peter1138> I guess that can kinda happen with TTD.
14:49:06 <peter1138> Now I have a conflict :D
14:49:22 <talltyler> I hope I picked the right one to approve first 😛
14:53:20 <xarick> I kind of just created a benchmark
14:54:37 <xarick> if growing a town takes less than a second, increase grow_amount by 1
14:54:52 <xarick> else decrease grow_amount by 1
14:55:11 <xarick> I ended with a grow_amount around 517
14:57:38 <peter1138> xarick, make #11564 be just the ClampTo in MaxTownNoise() and I'll merge that. The other change is not doing anything, but requires two iterations of airport tiles instead of one.
14:58:20 <peter1138> Town noise overflowing is a bit contrived but adding a single ClampTo to stop it is simple enough anyway.
15:00:15 <locosage> xarick: ever heard of binary searh? xD
15:00:46 <andythenorth> peter1138: less cursed
15:12:24 <peter1138> Oops, accidentally pressed space in a header file. Auto-save is on. Near full rebuild coming...
15:12:48 <xarick> ewww the commit message became ugly, sorry
15:14:55 <xarick> do i have to edit the PR message?
15:18:53 <talltyler> Yes, please remove the strike-through text so when we look back at the PR later we can easily see what has been changed. Stuff you did not change doesn't need to be in the historical record. 🙂
15:19:21 <LordAro> i like how github seems to think you removed a '(', then added two
15:19:51 <peter1138> talltyler, heh, well, I've done that too in the past, oops :)
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15:25:25 <peter1138> It's a bit off with OpenGFX Hi-Def
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15:27:58 <peter1138> The scrollbar arrow sprites are taller than standard.
15:49:28 <andythenorth> Give the scrollbar a RHS border? 😛
15:50:17 <andythenorth> The checkerboard continues to window edge
15:50:28 <peter1138> That would look dumb.
15:50:51 <andythenorth> There are ways we could make it work
15:51:05 <andythenorth> Those two ‘rails’ could be adjusted
15:52:36 <peter1138> And when the scrollbar is in the middle of a window?
15:53:03 <peter1138> It can't have *just* a right-hand border.
15:53:19 <peter1138> So do you put on each side?
15:53:27 <peter1138> What about at the top and bottom?
15:53:31 <peter1138> Should it be raised?
15:54:00 <andythenorth> Photoshop time? 😛
15:54:16 <peter1138> No point, we're going to change it because it's not broken.
16:00:50 <peter1138> Doesn't even look good.
16:16:51 <andythenorth> I quite like it but eh 🙂
16:17:05 <andythenorth> Not a ditch to die in
16:17:06 <xarick> hey peter1138[d] while I'm asking for things, I'd also like to have multiple AI/Game Script Debug windows open at the same time. I wanna follow two logs
16:21:43 <peter1138> I guess that's one way to solve the 'so many buttons' problem...
16:23:54 <_glx_> and a submenu in '?' menu ?
16:24:47 <_glx_> but I don't think the GUI supports that
16:29:35 <peter1138> Submenus? Perhaps not.
16:31:29 <peter1138> We definitely only support one dropdown menu currently.
16:38:26 <peter1138> Although those buttons are used for status, hmm.
16:43:15 <peter1138> What is "developer" mode used for these days...
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16:43:41 <peter1138> It seems it ranges from 0 to 2, but actually only one thing uses it, and that needs 2.
16:43:57 <peter1138> And it's something to do with NetworkAdmin socket.
17:13:30 <_glx_> it's system dependant, and not all system have a ms precision
17:15:02 <_glx_> and changing system clock will affect the result, like when a hour is added/substracted
17:23:25 <_glx_> oh and based on CI failures, the code assumes it's found even when not found
17:24:01 <peter1138> Actually it check, except for the line that includes the header itself.
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20:28:44 <_zephyris> Ugh, pixel font diacritics
20:28:58 <_zephyris> Why can't they use combining diacritics and anchor points
20:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause> embed ttf in grf?
20:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> why is nobody crying BAD FEATURE at such an atrocity?
20:56:57 <_zephyris> It's not the _worst_ idea
20:57:22 <_zephyris> You could get antialiased TTD-style fonts...
21:00:28 <peter1138[d]> If you made a TTD-style truetype font, it could just be included with the game.
21:02:33 <_zephyris> IIRC there was a serif/newspaper ttf around
21:04:47 <michi_cc[d]> Is there some auto-tracing program for fonts? Because in Germany copyright protection for fonts specifically only extends for 10 years in the general case.
21:05:10 <peter1138> None of the serif fonts I've tried have the right feeling shape.
21:05:42 <michi_cc[d]> You are still not allowed to ship/sell the literal font file, but a new file with identical looks is okay ofter 10 years (and TTD is older than 10).
21:06:05 <peter1138> Ah, you mean actually converting TTD's font to TTF :D
21:06:10 <michi_cc[d]> peter1138: To make a proper TTF out of the pixel font.
21:06:34 <peter1138> I like the font in Hi Def, I'm not sure how _zephyris has managed it though.
21:07:34 <_zephyris> But itd be easy enough to make a "deliberately bad" ttf in that style...
21:09:37 <peter1138> Doesn't need to be bad ;)
21:10:54 <_zephyris> Well, trying to align to the pixel grid to capture the pixel art style
21:11:10 <_zephyris> Not really best practice for normal font design!
21:13:58 <peter1138> That's kinda what hinting does, but it also tends to ruin the shape a bit.
21:17:32 <LordAro> i wonder whether dynamic linking might be preferable to requiring a mp3 library to run
21:18:03 <LordAro> reminds me of how vim accidentally(?) stsrted requiring an audio stack for a few versions
21:18:39 <peter1138> Heh, libmad only depends on libc at least ;D
21:19:03 <peter1138> It's also not a large library.
21:19:34 <peter1138> I'm not even sure if it's worth doing it, hence why it's a draft.
21:21:00 <peter1138> Not sure how many NewGRFs even include sounds, nor how large they are.
21:21:03 <LordAro> there's a certain amount of "self regulating" regarding copyright enfringement of music sets in their current form just by the fact that copyrighted stuff generally isn't available in midi form
21:21:30 <peter1138> And this is only for sound effects, not music.
21:22:05 <peter1138> We... don't use MIDI for sound...
21:22:30 <LordAro> s/midi/whatever is used currently/
21:22:49 <peter1138> You comment applied perfectly to music.
21:23:00 <peter1138> But not sound effects :)
21:23:22 <peter1138> grep "action 11" *.grf isn't going to work :s
21:24:43 <peter1138> truebrain, which project contains the code that works out what tags to apply to NewGRFs?
21:26:05 <peter1138> new_upload/readers/newgrf.py looks relevant.
21:26:43 <truebrain> Is the exact place that classifies content.
21:27:06 <truebrain> (And classification are called "tags" ingame)
21:27:32 <peter1138> Ah yes, the other one handles reading the file, hence "readers"
21:30:16 <peter1138> Ah, readers does set up some other bits too.
21:30:32 <peter1138> Testing sprite ranges to determine things.
21:30:37 <truebrain> They work together, yes.
21:31:40 <peter1138> Hmm, have we added anything since that could benefit from a tag.
21:36:54 <peter1138> Compiling a debug build of Doom. It's 250 files and compiles a LOT quicker than OpenTTD...
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22:15:07 <peter1138> Very weird, it ran debug fine for a few times, now everything hangs and confuses 100% CPU :S
22:27:27 <peter1138> I'm amused we have the "word" "peepz" just there :)
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23:10:24 <peter1138> Fiddling with MP3s again :)
23:14:18 <peter1138> Can I create a thread to load sounds...
23:38:23 <peter1138[d]> Seems kinda low, but then again I changed things around, it no longer preloads all sounds, but it does keep sounds in memory.
23:49:53 <truebrain> Nothing better than reading some passive aggressive text before going to sleep 🙂
23:50:05 <peter1138> Who said anything about going to sleep...
23:51:02 <truebrain> At least there are many smileys this time, so there is improvement!
23:51:36 <peter1138> Yay, NewGRF sounds working again.
23:52:18 <peter1138> 121 KiB in cached sound effects seems very low.
23:54:25 <peter1138> Should changing sound set stop the current sounds?
23:59:28 <peter1138> It doesn't currently, they just play until the end :)
23:59:56 <peter1138> It does make it seem like nothing has happened.
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