IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-11-28
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01:56:05 <peter1138[d]> I should sleep...
01:58:28 <peter1138> This is a bit like 4x extra zoom sprites but for sound.
01:59:46 <peter1138> 4x sample depth (int8 to float) and 4x sample rate (11025Hz to 44100Hz)
02:01:17 <peter1138> 38695 bytes to 619120 bytes :/
02:10:53 <peter1138> I'm assuming young people turn the sound off :p
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04:13:44 <_pruple> I'm not saying it's a bug as such, but is there an explanation for why, if you're building loose wagons, it always puts the *first* of a new type at the start of the chain, and then subsequent wagons at the end?
04:38:39 <merni> Is that common for all wagons across all grfs?
04:38:56 <merni> May be some magic in that grf
04:49:22 <_pruple> yes, it's universal. you get the same behaviour with any or no newgrfs.
06:45:06 <_glx_> Because it's easier code wise I think
06:46:21 <_glx_> But it might be a bug too
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07:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> probably a side effect from some other change
08:22:39 <rau117> _pruple: Yeah, before [some, probably 13.3 or 13.4] version the wagons were “sorted” while you buying them.
08:22:39 <rau117> And I am very afraid that this is intended.
08:53:41 <peter1138> So it broken between 13.0 and 13.4?
09:10:56 <peter1138> I think it's my bug too :)
09:19:58 <_pruple> implausible deniability
09:20:19 <LordAro> peter1138: how dare you make changes
09:22:18 <peter1138> Yeah, reverting that commit fixes it.
09:24:09 <peter1138> Okay, simple enough fix I think.
09:24:27 <peter1138> It used to only call normalise for engines, now it calls it for both engines and wagons.
09:27:53 <_pruple> many samples, such cat
09:28:17 <peter1138> But the spectral graph looks a lot cleaner!
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09:40:23 <emperorjake> Speaking of wagon behaviour in depot, you used to be able to drag a wagon off a train and drop it anywhere in the depot window to remove it from a train, Now it only works if you drop it on the line directly under the train in the depot window.
09:40:37 <emperorjake> It's a minor annoyance, but still an annoyance
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09:43:25 <emperorjake> Also caused by 10926 I'm assuming?
09:44:01 <peter1138> But it is also caused by me.
09:44:15 <LordAro> we can't fix bugs if we don't know they exist
09:44:22 <LordAro> 13.4 has been out for 6 months..
09:44:27 <peter1138> When using GetScrolledRowFromWidget it does different bounds checking than before.
09:44:47 <LordAro> (something something devs don't play the game something something)
09:45:53 <emperorjake> That bug isn't in 13.4 yet, just checked
09:46:10 <peter1138> But no, we can test things and it seems to work, but we can't think of all cases to test.
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09:53:45 <peter1138> Me: Remove unused fields.
09:53:50 <peter1138> Also me: Why are these fields in use...
09:57:29 <peter1138> Sticking with 11025Hz playback rate would have been better quality :o
09:57:58 <peter1138> Does anyone making NewGRF sounds use higher than 8-bit 11025Hz samples...
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10:04:19 <peter1138> I suppose converting back to 16 bit samples would save half the memory.
10:13:05 <locosage> you can probably guess that by newgrf size
10:13:20 <locosage> as sounds are completely uncompressed it gets ridiculous pretty fast
10:22:26 <peter1138> Hmm, OpenSFX and AltSFX are bigger.
10:24:03 <peter1138> Okay, well that just means the penalty for resampling is less.
10:36:01 <peter1138> Hmm, how to allocate a float buffer in an audio thread :/
10:43:08 <peter1138> Memory allocation is not allowed in audio threads.
10:44:31 <peter1138> Preallocate and hope that the buffer size isn't changed? :o
10:48:15 <peter1138> Dear MPD, I cannot think of a time I want to add tracks to the playlist and only play... one of them.
10:52:07 <ahyangyi> `float preallocated_buffer[1 << 30]; // virtual memeory management is an illusion anyways`
10:53:21 <peter1138> Wow, who set the default buffer size to 8192 for XAudio2 :o
10:54:30 <peter1138> That's 200ms of audio latency.
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12:54:50 <peter1138> This resampling is closer to the nyquist limit now, but there's a big noise spike.
12:54:55 <peter1138> Which is a ca-ching! noise.
13:17:57 <peter1138> Nothing to see here.
13:19:19 <peter1138> Normally v/u are used the other way around.
13:23:08 <peter1138> Eh, "split by type" is probably better wording than "sorted by type"
13:40:23 <peter1138[d]> But in practice?
13:41:15 <andythenorth> how about sardine paste on bread?
13:41:25 <andythenorth> it's gluten free bread made of potatos, because Wheat Issues
14:12:51 <peter1138> How do you make a NewGRF with a callback now?
14:13:13 <andythenorth> I would probably use the examples that ship with nml
14:13:20 <andythenorth> and just add a callback to the example train
14:22:09 <peter1138> Oof, it's getting chilly
14:24:45 <_pruple> I have another "is this intentional or is it a bug" question, and it's not peter's fault this time;
14:26:07 <_pruple> I can add rail stations to the DFLT category, and also use them to rename the category. But I can't do the same with road stops; they just don't show up if I add them to DFLT.
14:27:23 <_zephyris> Let's see if 'enhancement' get's put on this one 🙂
14:30:51 <_pruple> peter1138: it's more likely a question for _jgr_ , since he added the feature...
14:31:13 <peter1138> newgrf_roadstop.cpp:450
14:31:38 <peter1138> I think that > 1 should be == 1.
14:31:48 <peter1138> Oh, it's a combined !
14:32:11 <peter1138> I dislike combined negated conditions.
14:32:23 <peter1138> Probably based on my code :)
14:32:46 <peter1138> I think it's close those.
14:32:56 <_jgr_> In principle, adding roadstops to the default class and renaming it should be allowed
14:33:09 <_jgr_> Not that I've ever tested this case
14:33:11 <peter1138> If the class is DFLT then it doesn't actually check if it has new stops.
14:34:11 <talltyler> Trailing whitespace, really? What an amateur move.
14:34:48 <peter1138> Yeah, when I found out that VS Code could automatically strip those...
14:35:35 <talltyler> To be fair, it was right after a 30-commit rebase... 😛
14:35:46 <talltyler> I'll cut myself a bit of slack there
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14:39:30 <peter1138> Ah yes the "holy shit it finished!" relief.
14:47:28 <_pruple> ah, the plot thickens...
14:47:51 <andythenorth> the custard thickens
14:48:28 <peter1138> All my rhubarb has given up for winter.
14:48:35 <_pruple> playing around with test grfs, adding to DFLT and renaming it *does* work, if there's another class defined too.
14:48:53 <peter1138> It's newgrf_roadstop.cpp:453
14:49:08 <peter1138> Fix that and then it'll probably work :)
14:50:27 <_pruple> 👍 I am with understanding.
14:51:33 <peter1138> Do we need to timestamp audio events?
14:51:47 <peter1138> I wonder if that is why running sounds never worked well.
14:52:05 <andythenorth> such audio in games
14:52:13 <andythenorth> I forget all the things we used to do in Flash games
14:52:18 <andythenorth> it was always quite....organic
14:52:28 <rau117> Okey… let me ask about “Is this a bug or is it intended?” too.
14:52:28 <rau117> Train groups retain the “wagon removal” parameter as it was at the time the group was created, but do not respond to the general parameter - when autoreplacing via “All Trains”, this parameter is marked “wagon removal **(ungrouped trains)**”.
14:52:28 <rau117> Thus, if at the beginning of the game you forgot about this button and created a hundred groups, in order to avoid problems with an extra car, you will have to manually go through all the groups and switch this parameter individually (or delete all groups and create them again).
14:52:30 <andythenorth> stuff like counting max sounds
14:52:40 <andythenorth> and stereo panning
14:52:52 <peter1138> I'm sure I once HAD a patch to timestamp sounds. But it was years ago.
14:53:07 <andythenorth> rau117: look in the commit that changed it
14:53:13 <andythenorth> and read the rationale
14:54:22 <LordAro> (or at least report it as a bug properly)
14:55:10 <peter1138> It is a function that we've hidden behind ctrl? :D
14:55:37 <_jgr_> I'm not sure I get why it would be useful to timestamp sounds, once they're triggered there's nothing else which is synchronised with them
14:55:48 <peter1138> I don't think toggling wagon removal for ungrouped trains should automatically propagate to the rest, without intervention.
14:56:56 <peter1138> The issue is that sounds are effectively "queued" until the next audio buffer is processed.
14:56:58 <rau117> LordAro: That’s why I’m asking here, so as not to make a bug report only to have it immediately canceled as “as intended.”
14:58:07 <LordAro> that's definitely true
14:58:45 <peter1138> By default we've set that to 1024, (23 ms), so it's not a big issue, but for XAudio2 it defaults to 8192 (185ms) for some reason.
14:59:05 <LordAro> but in cases where it is unclear, an "official" bug report will be helpful in working out what could be improved
14:59:17 <peter1138> This means sounds can be requested in different game ticks, but the sounds actually start at the same time.
14:59:44 <LordAro> if nothing else, it gives us something to point at and say "this is intended" and the justifications why, rather than "we had a conversation about this on discord months ago, didn't you see it?"
14:59:53 <peter1138> Even with a low buffer size, it means the time a start sounds is not consistent with the tick it was requested.
15:01:41 <_jgr_> Even then, does that matter? It's just tooting, choo-choo, etc noises
15:02:13 <_jgr_> There's no lip sync requirements
15:03:09 <peter1138> Given that TTDPatch introduced running sounds that should play a sound on a specific tick... yes.
15:04:19 <peter1138> It's pretty simple to do as well, except for that pesky fast-forward that upsets time.
15:04:56 <andythenorth> and the linked issue ticket
15:05:08 <peter1138> andythenorth, thanks apparently I hadn't deleted that branch.
15:05:24 <andythenorth> the grf docks branch? 😄
15:05:34 <peter1138> No, that one's gone ;)
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15:16:03 <peter1138> I think I introduced another bug.
15:17:16 <peter1138> /* Shuffle() will also Play() if necessary, only start once */
15:17:19 <peter1138> It doesn't any more :-)
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15:56:43 <_glx_> I think wagon removal stuff is mostly an "it's very hard to do nice UI about this flag"
15:57:19 <peter1138> "ctrl-click to follow-through"
16:15:55 <talltyler> 65 annotations found, big oops somewhere 😛
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17:19:09 <peter1138> Such plinky tunes :p
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17:21:56 <peter1138> Some of #10700 is still a bit wonky.
17:23:32 <peter1138> Engine life length and build year don't make sense as Economy time.
17:24:03 <peter1138> I know you said "they are in sync for now", but I don't think that makes it logically correct.
17:31:22 <talltyler> I kept those as economy time because they are “game balance”
17:32:03 <talltyler> I could be convinced otherwise 🙂
17:32:39 <peter1138> IMHO making them economy time defeats one of primary reasons for stretching time.
17:32:48 <talltyler> Economy and calendar time are in sync for now but every change here is planning for when they are not
17:33:06 <talltyler> But that’s purchase availability, not life length, right?
17:34:24 <peter1138> lifelength determines availability based on date.
17:35:37 <rau117> andythenorth: This is what I was afraid of, “works as intended”.
17:37:26 <rau117> Probably the most straightforward solution would be to add another button “force wagon removal for [red text] all groups”.
17:38:07 <talltyler> Oh, I thought it was life length of a vehicle, not the engine.
17:38:32 <talltyler> Because you are correct, life length of the engine should be calendar time.
17:38:55 <peter1138> life of a vehicle should be calendar time too, anyway.
17:52:02 <talltyler> Well, I’m happy to drop those commits 🙂
17:58:24 <andythenorth> did we do templated train consists yet?
17:59:15 <andythenorth> instead of autoreplace, a pointer to an existing train
17:59:41 <andythenorth> not massively different to cloning in concept
18:00:13 <andythenorth> different user experience though
18:00:24 <FLHerne> there's a patch for it in JGRPP
18:00:30 <andythenorth> yeah I broke it 🙂
18:00:42 <andythenorth> and the discord channel had to explain to me how to use it
18:01:03 <andythenorth> I think it's for advanced players, which I am not
18:01:26 <jfs> someone offered a PR for it some years ago, but as far as I remember the code wasn't great and the UI was really weird (dissimilar to existing things)
18:01:51 <andythenorth> every conversation I've had about it seems to involve somewhere to keep shadow consists off map
18:01:59 <andythenorth> and to use up existing vehicles by assigning them to consists
18:02:07 <andythenorth> and other such wonderfully advanced features
18:02:16 <andythenorth> - vehicle visits depot
18:02:24 <andythenorth> - entire consist is cleared of vehicles
18:02:54 <andythenorth> - consist has vehicles added, to match an existing real consist, by similar method to cloning
18:03:06 <andythenorth> - any cargo that was present before templated replace is re-added
18:03:14 <andythenorth> would be simple to understand
18:03:22 <andythenorth> 'match' rather than 'clone'
18:03:34 <andythenorth> obviously there would be pitchforks about vehicle age being reset
18:03:44 <andythenorth> and about leftover vehicles not being available for the player
18:03:51 <andythenorth> and not using up vehicles already in the depot
18:04:03 <andythenorth> and all the other reasons a handful of players find to prevent progress 🙂
18:04:03 <jfs> something like, manually upgrade one vehicle in a group, then push a button for "update all vehicles in group to match this one"?
18:04:22 <andythenorth> nominate one vehicle as the gestalt / prototype / source / etc
18:05:42 <andythenorth> pathfinder, trailblazer, original, paradigm, blueprint, archetype, exemplar, paragon, essence
18:05:47 <andythenorth> /me can thesaurus 😛
18:08:41 <jfs> maybe also make a manually triggerable order for a single vehicle where you point at another (sufficiently compatible) vehicle to order the first vehicle to go to depot and replace itself to match the pointed-at one
18:09:22 <andythenorth> /me imagining self-modifying vehicles
18:09:27 <jfs> and then just have a way to mass-designate that order to a group or other displayed list of vehicles
18:09:27 <andythenorth> that would be another level 🙂
18:10:04 <jfs> like, vehicles sharing orders, or vehicles stopping at a specific station, or somesuch
18:10:52 <andythenorth> if there was a complex order set, consists could go to different depots and change themselves
18:11:01 <andythenorth> might rely on having n trains stopped in depot
18:11:04 <andythenorth> the abuses would be amazing 🙂
18:11:24 <andythenorth> wait, I'm against complexity, yes/no? 😛
18:15:36 <jfs> that sounds quite much like it
18:16:15 <jfs> not the PR that I was talking about that was rejected, but rather what andy and I just proposed
18:17:26 <andythenorth> convergent evolution 🙂
18:17:36 <andythenorth> or I read the PR ages ago, and it re-appeared in my brain today 🙂
18:17:55 <andythenorth> 'templates' are an extra concept
18:17:59 <andythenorth> and concepts are hard
18:28:14 <andythenorth> orders that can change the consist though...
18:38:47 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:41:49 <talltyler> ^^ vehicle and engine age now remains on calendar time
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18:48:52 <Rubidium> talltyler, you'll need to rebase #11389 as it's more than 256 commits behind, and the commit checker doesn't appreciate that
18:50:36 <talltyler> I blame Peter for lots of GUI improvement commits 😛
18:52:02 <talltyler> Okay, cleaning up and standardizing
18:52:14 <talltyler> Not so much visual improvement to the player, but the code is undoubtedly nicer
18:56:58 <peter1138> There is one bit I'm stuck on with the layouts.
18:59:21 <peter1138> So there's a very similar set of buttons on all those windows.
18:59:34 <peter1138> But there's not a log of consistency.
19:00:06 <peter1138> Also I've found a crash, argh.
19:01:07 <talltyler> Scripts don't have a website?
19:01:33 <_zephyris> Basesets don't have a website...
19:01:49 <peter1138[d]> But should they?
19:01:53 <talltyler> I've never uploaded a script to Bananas, but the website GUI has a field for a website
19:02:02 <talltyler> When adding a new item
19:02:05 <andythenorth> goes it ask GPT for a new UI?
19:02:13 <talltyler> Goes it ask Peter 😛
19:02:23 <peter1138[d]> It would need to be in the baseset obm/obg/obs files.
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19:06:59 <frosch123> ok, the url is shown in the "available AIs" window as label, but there is no button to click 🙂
19:07:41 <peter1138> Yes, I suspect we didn't have a URL opener when they were added :)
19:08:32 <frosch123> good luck copy-typing the url 🙂
19:39:09 <peter1138[d]> I guess it's okay.
19:41:25 <_zephyris> ... but overall, synchronising the appearance of all of those dialogs does sound like a good plan.
19:41:38 <talltyler> So I guess for a baseset that doesn't have a website, the button would just be disabled?
19:41:39 <peter1138[d]> Not sure if I have access to a URL yet, but still 🙂
19:41:47 <peter1138[d]> Yes, same as the other buttons.
19:43:23 <talltyler> Getting ahead of myself, but the Close button makes absolutely no sense to be part of that grouping
19:43:45 <talltyler> And should probably be the usual window X instead of a text label
19:43:50 <peter1138[d]> There's no need for a text close button
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20:07:03 <brickblock19280> This is going to be a pain to clean up
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20:31:42 <andythenorth> hmm autoreplace is failing
20:33:27 <peter1138> What. Have I broken this time.
20:34:33 <andythenorth> dunno if it was you 😄
20:34:48 <andythenorth> maybe it was TB 🙂
20:37:35 <peter1138> Christ, why am I in a mood?
20:37:51 <andythenorth> it's Nov 28th, look at the weather 😛
20:37:58 <andythenorth> that's my excuse anyway
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20:58:27 <talltyler> Remind us what the rest of that window looks like?
20:58:41 <talltyler> (Not at a computer right now?
21:04:12 <jfs> thought, maybe the Select Game Script button should be moved up next to the script name? and just shortened to "change" or such
21:04:37 <jfs> but ofc that would be inconsistent with the AI config window
21:04:40 <peter1138[d]> Yes, probably. It's a left over from when the two windows were one.
21:05:06 <peter1138[d]> Well, they do need to be a bit different 🙂
21:05:20 <peter1138[d]> But... I'm not sure I want to change much more right now.
21:06:25 <talltyler> jfs: Yes, that was my thought exactly
21:07:37 <talltyler> And the Check Online Content button could move to the selection popup window, where you can see available scripts.
21:08:23 <peter1138[d]> That just makes sense that does.
21:08:33 <peter1138[d]> That would be against our design guidelines 😄
21:09:29 <peter1138[d]> Perhaps the Available AIs/Available Game Scripts could get the sparse-layout treatment.
21:09:56 <peter1138[d]> With a list on the left side, details (and url/textfile buttons) on the right side,
21:10:25 <peter1138[d]> Although then it might look too similar to the content download window, and therefore confusing.
21:10:50 <jfs> another thing is, I've never quite liked the "Check Online Content" wording, it seems kind of strange to me
21:10:50 <jfs> I would expect something more like "Browse Online Content" or even "Download Additional Content"
21:11:19 <jfs> of course only "check" also encapsulates the "search for updates" part
21:11:23 <peter1138[d]> Why is the "select ai/gs list" separate from the content downloader...
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21:11:48 <frosch123> the "check" part is from the newgrf window, mainly used for downloading missing content for joining multiplayer
21:12:19 <peter1138[d]> "Select AI/GS" could show you all you have installed... and also (after pressing the button) those that you could have... which it'll just download if needed.
21:12:31 <peter1138[d]> No separate installed/not installed lists.
21:12:46 <peter1138[d]> That sounds more usable to me, but also... a bigger project.
21:13:10 <jfs> that somewhat breaks the concept that the game only attempts to connect to the internet after you explicitly click a button that says something with online/network
21:13:22 <peter1138[d]> That's why I had "after pressing the button"
21:13:50 <peter1138[d]> By default it only shows installed, you press the button to update the list to include not-installed items.
21:14:23 <frosch123> peter1138[d]: sounds reasonable. not sure where you would put ai/gs libraries. maybe they would be hidden unless ai/game_development_tools are enabled
21:14:47 <peter1138[d]> libraries are kind of irrelevant to download individually I think?
21:14:56 <jfs> yeah, not that interesting normally
21:15:05 <jfs> also, you could find/get them via console commands
21:15:07 <peter1138[d]> Especially for non-developer_tools, yeah.
21:16:08 <jfs> did the content downloader window get a feature to filter by content type yet?
21:16:36 <peter1138[d]> No, only by going to the appropriate section first.
21:17:27 <peter1138[d]> ^ baseset support... does the content upload stuff need to do anything to support that?
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21:18:21 <michi_cc[d]> So, how much mess am I allowed to make in `cargopacket/cargoaction`.`h/cpp`? Thanks to cargodist, more or less everything in there is keyed and sorted by next station. I need next order, tough 😦
21:18:32 <peter1138[d]> I assume the .obg/m/s file is uploaded as part of the bundle and just contains whatever has been uploaded, but I don't know.
21:19:00 <peter1138[d]> michi_cc[d]: do it
21:19:24 <peter1138[d]> I think there's a general "cargodist is a bit meh isn't it?" vibe at the moment...
21:19:33 <frosch123> peter1138[d]: yes, the ob* files are verified. uploads with unknown fields are probably rejected
21:21:15 <frosch123> hmm, actually, probably rather in base_sets.py
21:21:19 <peter1138[d]> > Do you trust the authors of the files in this folder?
21:21:25 <peter1138[d]> Well isn't that the question.
21:22:19 <frosch123> oh, maybe it does not care about extra files
21:22:29 <frosch123> maybe just try uploading on staging 🙂
21:25:25 <peter1138[d]> Hmm, of course the content system already has a URL somewhere but that's not part of the baseset itself.
21:26:29 <frosch123> yes, the idea is that the bannaas-upload form reads the info from the uploaded content
21:26:55 <frosch123> i think we finished the "reading stuff", but never did the "prefill form stuff"
21:30:05 <andythenorth> "Get GFR" (for reddit users)
21:33:26 <andythenorth> that would involve a lot of confusion
21:33:33 <andythenorth> but 7 fixed grfs and one G
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21:41:49 <talltyler> “Workshop” if we want to tick off both Valve and players 😛
21:43:37 <andythenorth> what would EA call it?
21:44:04 <peter1138> Read and agree to this 250 page long EULA to find out.
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22:00:29 <andythenorth> hmm do I miss the income / expense animations?
22:01:07 <peter1138> Press the button to turn them on.
22:01:16 <peter1138> And think of a better icon :p
22:02:15 <andythenorth> but loading indicators 😛
22:02:23 <andythenorth> are just noise 🙂
22:02:37 <peter1138> Aren't the income messages too?
22:03:54 <andythenorth> game is calmer without them
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22:22:22 <wensimehrp> andythenorth: Some Chinese players mixes up G an J, and they say "I want JRF."
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22:35:25 <_glx_> oh nightlies are broken for a week now
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22:40:10 <_glx_> ``` Error: You are using macOS 11.
22:40:10 <_glx_> We (and Apple) do not provide support for this old version.
22:40:10 <_glx_> It is expected behaviour that some formulae will fail to build in this old version.
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22:47:02 <peter1138> Oh things got updated and broken?
22:47:04 <_glx_> fixing macos should be simple, fixing linux might be harder
22:48:18 <peter1138> Something about python3.
22:49:59 <_glx_> nah python3 pass after some retries, but libmount still fails at the end
22:53:24 <_glx_> but last change in this port was 7 months ago
22:58:31 <_jgr_> I also ran into this issue recently, changing the vcpkg cache key and cloning an older version of vcpkg was enough to work around it
23:00:59 <_glx_> yeah the issue is we force the use of latest vcpkg for linux releases
23:23:29 <xarick> OpenAI learned how to break encryption
23:24:34 <xarick> okay, NSA and OpenAI broke encryption
23:25:37 <Rubidium> peter1138: hasn't it already broken double ROT13 encryption? ;D
23:26:32 <xarick> now all that needs to happen is... have some bad actor (as if NSA wasn't bad enough) to send humanity into chaos
23:28:58 <xarick> the end of the digital world 😦
23:37:35 <xarick> I read some hopefully fake videos about some leaked OpenAI research work
23:43:01 * Rubidium wonders how much of that is hallucinated by "AI"
23:43:01 <LordAro> try not to fall down the youtube conspiracy theory rabbit hole
23:45:43 <_glx_> escape from the algorithm
continue to next day ⏵
