IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-11-24
00:06:20 <talltyler> andythenorth: Hours late, but I still think โ€œselect parent variant and Ctrl+click the buy buttonโ€ is an easy way to buy a random variant. At the risk of adding more hidden features that are only documented in a tooltip.
00:06:39 <peter1138> So... using GetSpriteSize/DrawSprite does not work for the bus sprite. becuase it's a viewport sprite.
00:06:44 <talltyler> Ctrl+click the buy button is currently available ๐Ÿ™‚
00:07:17 <peter1138> Using GetScaledSpriteSize/DrawSpriteIgnorePadding does work, but means the cargo icons aren't aligned the same way as in the station view.
00:07:49 <peter1138> Sprite offsets are the bane of a nice scalable GUI :/
00:09:50 <peter1138> (Main thing is the piles of bulk cargo are meant to be in the lower portion, but end up floating in the middle...)
00:17:50 <peter1138> Weird, in Toyland, the bridges which are differentiated only by colour are... all the same colour.
00:24:27 <peter1138> Well.
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00:34:26 <_pruple> the bus sprite in the player window is redundant anyway, get rid of it
00:35:04 <_pruple> it's not 2cc, and it doesn't tell you anything the colour of the title bar or president background doesn't.
00:36:42 <peter1138> Not the player window, the drop down list in the company colour/livery windw.
00:36:44 <peter1138> +o
00:37:15 <_pruple> oh
00:37:24 <_pruple> get rid of that too, just have a cc square? ๐Ÿ™‚
00:37:55 <_pruple> that's what you end up with in the list anyway
00:38:01 <_zephyris> peter1138: Not in OpenGFX2 ๐Ÿ˜œ
00:39:05 <peter1138> Hmm?
00:42:04 <peter1138> The current code does it for the bus list item by... harding pixel sizes.
00:43:14 <_pruple> the bridges aren't the same colour in opengfx2, no quotes on IRC ๐Ÿ™‚
00:44:09 <_pruple> get rid of the bus sprites all round. they make no sense anyway
00:44:28 <_pruple> "setting 2cc for aircraft? here's a 1cc bus to show you the colour"
00:44:53 <peter1138[d]>
00:45:23 <_zephyris>
00:45:41 <_pruple> those are certainly some colourful bridges
00:45:42 <peter1138[d]>
00:46:02 <_zephyris> It is toyland ๐Ÿ˜‰
00:46:43 <_zephyris> I like the cc colour swatches
00:47:09 <peter1138[d]> Then OpenGFX/OpenGFX2 one is not brilliant though. Sorry!
00:47:32 <peter1138[d]>
00:47:32 <peter1138[d]> That is okay.
00:48:10 <peter1138[d]>
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00:49:49 <peter1138[d]>
00:49:58 <_pruple> ew
00:50:00 <peter1138> Not using the bus is sacrilege.
00:51:23 <johnfranklin> why is original TTD bus
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00:52:45 <_pruple> yes
00:56:05 <_zephyris> The current design is a bit weird. You use a dropdown with buses to select a colour swatch...
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01:03:49 <peter1138> Yeah, tempted to use thec olour swatch -- the small square rather than the company colour icon.
01:03:54 <peter1138> Then it's at least consistent.
01:04:37 <peter1138> Pick a random sprite on load :D
01:05:54 <peter1138> Is that square original or something we added?
01:06:06 <_pruple> something we added I think
01:06:12 <_pruple> can't think of anywhere original it's used
01:06:14 <peter1138> Yes, I could answer that myself.
01:06:22 <peter1138> SPR_SQUARE = SPR_OPENTTD_BASE + 38
01:06:31 <peter1138> 38 means it's quite... old.
01:06:40 <peter1138> I remember it was used in the original NewGRF window.
01:06:53 <peter1138> Oh, it still is :)
01:11:56 <peter1138> Well.
01:12:00 <peter1138>
01:12:32 <peter1138> So for a long time it just listed the colour by name :)
01:23:31 <_glx_> hehe
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03:46:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DefinitelyNotRau117 commented on pull request #11487: Feature: Show cargo icon on cargo filter lists.
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06:20:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] tamlin-mike opened issue #11488: [Bug]: spritecache excessive size
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07:30:45 <georgevb> peter1138: May be instead of calling it "a bad feature" (I do not think it is bad), you can improve OpenTTD to support it better - allow selecting them, but not allowing building them. This would allow to press hide / unhide button (for groups should cause hiding all unhidden vehicles / unhiding all hidden for the whole hierarchy depth)
07:43:45 <truebrain> lol @ 11488 .. that sounds so passive agressive ๐Ÿ˜›
07:45:25 <_pruple> also doesn't actually identify what the issue is ๐Ÿ˜‰
07:45:36 <truebrain> `768 MB (8.05*10^6 bytes)` I do have issues with the math
07:45:45 <truebrain> but that is me being childish ๐Ÿ˜„
07:46:19 <_pruple> "the sprite cache is too big!" - too big for what?
07:47:27 <_pruple> "Should _sprite_cache_size ever be > 512" - well, good job the default setting is smaller than that, then.
07:49:40 <truebrain> okay, so `_sprite_cache_size` used to be in MB, but is not in 4MB, because 8bpp->32bpp
07:49:54 <truebrain> so the initial size is `128 * 4 * 1024 * 1024`
07:50:00 <truebrain> which is just 512MB
07:50:09 <_pruple> yes, I checked, it's been in pixels since 11 years ago. ๐Ÿ™‚
07:50:18 <truebrain> that also isn't in pixels
07:50:22 <truebrain> it is in 1/8th of a pixel
07:50:37 <truebrain> `_sprite_cache_size * bpp / 8 * 1024 * 1024`
07:50:37 <_pruple> units-of-pixels, then
07:50:54 <truebrain> units-of-nothing ๐Ÿ˜„
07:50:57 <truebrain> ๐Ÿ˜›
07:51:15 <truebrain> the comment is true with a 8bpp blitter!
07:51:28 <truebrain> but why would it "overflow" with > 512? That is lost on me ...
07:51:35 <_pruple> units of sausage
07:51:56 <truebrain> pretty sure that is 2GB
07:52:00 <truebrain> pretty sure that fits in a 32bit integer
07:52:21 <truebrain> 1024, now that becomes an issue ๐Ÿ˜›
07:52:40 <_pruple> he still hasn't actually suggested that anything is *wrong*, besides an out-of-date comment in the code.
07:52:57 <truebrain> `Should _sprite_cache_size ever be > 512, the code would overflow target_size`
07:53:08 <truebrain> although STRICTLY true, that value is actually `>= 1024` ๐Ÿ˜›
07:53:14 <_pruple> the default might be "excessive" for playing without grfs on a regular size map, but people don't.
07:57:53 <_pruple> and sure, but neither 512 nor 1024 is the default setting, the complaint is specifically that the default is "excessive"
07:58:05 <truebrain> I will ask him ๐Ÿ™‚
07:58:08 <truebrain> them?
07:58:09 <truebrain> them!
07:59:36 <_pruple> yes
08:12:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #11488: [Bug]: spritecache excessive size
08:20:03 <_pruple> v diplomatic
08:20:03 <truebrain> _pruple: highest possible value is 512, as it turns out ๐Ÿ™‚
08:20:36 <truebrain> so I am pretty sure someone went through the motions already, with what sizes are allowed etc ๐Ÿ˜›
08:22:30 <locosage> does it really allocate the full sprite cache on startup?
08:22:42 <locosage> it does sound quite excessive but I don't think it's true
08:22:47 <_pruple> no, it doesn't
08:24:05 <_pruple> I'm running openttd right now with a bunch of 32bpp newgrfs and such and it's using 160mb of memory.
08:25:25 <truebrain> my trusted `gdb` says it does allocate 512MB of RAM for the introgame
08:25:36 <truebrain> the code is a bit weird btw .. it allocates 768MB, releases it, allocates 512MB
08:25:49 <_pruple> o
08:25:51 <truebrain> but I am sure there are good ideas about that ๐Ÿ˜›
08:26:37 <truebrain> 1002 _spritecache_ptr = reinterpret_cast<MemBlock *>(new byte[_allocated_sprite_cache_size]);
08:26:37 <truebrain> (gdb) print _allocated_sprite_cache_size
08:26:37 <truebrain> $4 = 536870912
08:44:23 <LordAro> georgevb: fwiw, "bad feature" is usually used in a flippant or sarcastic context, rather than anything serious
08:45:41 <LordAro> truebrain: very well put
08:45:57 <truebrain> tnx ๐Ÿ™‚
08:46:32 <_pruple> no, bad features are serious business, with or without the comma. ๐Ÿ™‚
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08:48:21 <LordAro> _pruple: srs bsns
08:48:36 <_pruple> v
08:51:19 <peter1138> 1.13.4+64?
08:51:35 <truebrain> no, minus
08:51:42 <peter1138> Yeah. sorry.
08:52:16 <truebrain> You are forgiven ๐Ÿ˜›
08:53:05 <peter1138> Anyway, all that cursed 4x extra zooming just in case you want to be able to see things on a modern screen.
08:53:32 <truebrain> let's burn it all?
09:05:14 <peter1138> Surprised it's not limied by the max zoom setting.
09:05:51 <peter1138> And I don't quite understand the bit that allocates more than requested.
09:06:18 <peter1138> Possibly don't allocate all ram leaving nothing for anything else.
09:06:48 <truebrain> that was my guess; but a comment should have mentioned that ๐Ÿ˜›
09:06:59 <peter1138> It almost does.
09:19:24 <LordAro> does sound like there's some improvement that could be made in that area, at least
09:19:30 <LordAro> with the whole alloc/realloc stuff
09:20:32 <truebrain> it happens once on loading of a map
09:20:38 <truebrain> I mean .... of all the things we can put effort on
09:20:44 <truebrain> this doesn't sound like anything worth while?
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09:23:46 <peter1138> OpenGL sprite cache when? :D
09:25:17 <peter1138> Creating a sprite atlas on the fly sounds like fun right?
09:25:33 <truebrain> if it does to you, go nuts!
09:26:14 <LordAro> truebrain: i didn't say it would be worthwhile, just that it could be improved :p
09:26:27 <truebrain> yes, thank you for that contribution /s
09:26:35 <LordAro> happy to help
09:26:35 <truebrain> ๐Ÿ˜›
09:34:56 <_jgr_> Loading every possible zoom level at that same time is a large part of that problem
09:37:10 <_jgr_> A lot of memory gets wasted on zoom levels which are never used
09:39:39 <peter1138> It also makes non-power-of-2 scaling very awkward.
09:52:56 <peter1138> Also, wtf Netherlands?
09:53:04 <truebrain> what did we do this time?
09:53:41 <peter1138> PVV
09:53:46 <truebrain> ah, yes, that
09:58:33 <peter1138> Hmm, if you go with a conservative 2048x2048 atlas, you're not actually going to get much 4x extra zoom on that.
10:04:23 <peter1138> (And some people want 8x :D)
10:10:04 <peter1138>
10:10:46 <peter1138> The Japanese glyphs one is interesting.
10:14:56 <peter1138> But which sprites do you pack. I suppose it is possible to figure out which sprites are usable, but not which sprites will be used.
10:23:38 <peter1138> andythenorth, how many sprites in Horse now?
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10:31:53 <andythenorth> Yes some
10:33:48 <andythenorth> 102179 according to nmlc
10:33:57 <andythenorth> For 5111 trains
10:34:02 <peter1138> Nice. Deduplicated?
10:34:10 <andythenorth> Kinda ish
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10:40:19 <andythenorth> Wonder how many of the 5111 trains are โ€˜randomisedโ€™ vehicles
10:40:26 <andythenorth> Probably more than half
10:45:50 <_pruple> horse has 5111 vehicles? D:
10:47:07 <_pruple> sunshine [trains] has 4245 realsprites D:
10:52:56 <peter1138> Variant-bloat :)
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11:35:05 <locosage> horse 3.2.0: Found 40653(40%) duplicate sprites, 6359918(37%) bytes total
11:35:12 <peter1138> A few then.
11:35:44 <peter1138> I suppose that's due to reuse of templates rather than reuse of spritesets, or something.
11:36:43 <ahyangyi> locosage: Is that nml or grf-py?
11:38:07 <locosage> grf-py decompiler
11:41:33 <ahyangyi> Nice
11:42:13 <ahyangyi> We have more excuses to convince Andy we need more variants in Horse ๐Ÿ˜„
11:42:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] George-VB commented on issue #11470: [Bug]: Group is hidden when the last build vehicle in group is hidden
11:44:13 <peter1138> Hmm. In LoadNextSprite we check if the NewGRF is version 2+ and the `grf_type` is 0xFD. But in SpriteLoaderGRF we only check for version 2+
11:45:21 <peter1138> `grf_type` is a sprite property, not a grf property.
11:45:58 <peter1138> Ah, becuase inline sprites aren't allocated in V2+.
11:46:08 <peter1138> So it would be redundant to check again.
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11:50:25 <peter1138> Heh, "webdev" as a derogatory term.
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11:51:24 <ahyangyi> peter1138: how? ๐Ÿ˜ฎ
11:51:29 <peter1138> Where did I hide the power supply for my synthesizer?
11:52:18 <peter1138> ahyangyi, "webdev mentality"
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12:30:53 <peter1138> Hmm, router/switch firmware updates?
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12:44:44 <andythenorth> I've lost the saved grep command frosch gave me to find duplicate sprites
12:45:09 <andythenorth> nmlc reports 38667 duplicates, but I don't know if that means anything
12:47:22 <andythenorth> last detailed report I have here is from May 2023
12:48:05 <peter1138> Maybe nml needs a separate compiler and linker step :p
12:48:32 <andythenorth> pff, has been discussed before ๐Ÿ™‚
12:48:52 <andythenorth> some of us tried doing it by merging nfo and using grfcodec as the linker
12:49:06 <andythenorth> but the string IDs get mangled
12:49:21 <andythenorth> and any 'global' varact 2 also
12:49:25 <truebrain> sourcemaps!
12:52:42 <andythenorth> oh maybe the Horse duplicates are mostly related to random reverse
12:53:04 <peter1138> That should just be colour maps...?
12:53:15 <andythenorth> many engines will show default sprites <- or -> direction, depending on random bit when built
12:53:30 <andythenorth> the actual realsprites sets are different sequence
12:53:34 <peter1138> Oh, reverse direction.
12:53:39 <andythenorth> but the sprites will be detected as dupes
12:53:40 <peter1138> Not reverse random colours :D
12:53:45 <andythenorth> yeah, no those are deleted
12:53:52 <andythenorth> this Variants thing, heard of it? ๐Ÿ™‚
12:54:05 <peter1138> Sounds like a bad feature.
12:54:08 <peter1138> So.
12:54:38 <andythenorth> I haven't read the nfo, but the nml suggests that's the cause of most of the dupes
12:54:51 <andythenorth> it's hard to tell because it's wrapped up in spriteset template magic
12:55:00 <peter1138> Imagine if random-reverse was nothing but an engine property that told OpenTTD to randomly set the flipped bit on build...?
12:55:19 <peter1138> (Imagine setting it on non-rail vehicles)
12:55:40 <locosage> grf-py highlights duplicated sprites if that can help
12:56:04 <locosage> also it should be possible to figure out what switches use them if needed
12:56:05 <peter1138> Imagine if random-colours was nothing but a list of primary and secondary colours that OpenTTD could applyt.
12:56:23 <andythenorth> lots of this
12:56:43 <peter1138> Yeah, you can't reuse spritesets for that.
12:56:52 <andythenorth> I _think_ there's some advanced action 1 format though?
12:56:58 <andythenorth> that can resequence the same sprites?
12:57:05 <andythenorth> I tried to understand it, but I think only MB does
12:57:43 <locosage> I don't know of any way to deduplicate sprites with same image but different offsets
12:57:48 <locosage> same offsets can be though
12:58:16 <peter1138> That is not different offsets, just different order :)
12:58:35 <peter1138> And no, you can't do that either.
12:58:57 <peter1138> Maybe your duplicate detector can check if they are in the same order to help reporting dupes.
12:59:48 <andythenorth> imagine if the grf spec just did all this stuff
12:59:57 <andythenorth> but then authors ignored it ๐Ÿ˜›
13:00:00 <locosage> different order can be deduplicated
13:00:12 <locosage> I do that in grf-py
13:00:41 <peter1138> Hmm, is that some spriteset magic?
13:01:38 <locosage> pseudo sprite section only has sprite ids and you can use same id multiple times
13:02:01 <peter1138> Huh?
13:02:13 <peter1138> Hmm.
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13:04:13 <peter1138> SpriteSet 0 = { 229875, 229876, 229877, 229878, 229879, 229880, 229881, 229882 }
13:04:26 <peter1138> SpriteSet 1 = { 229879, 229880, 229881, 229882, 229875, 229876, 229877, 229878 }
13:04:29 <peter1138> ^ You can do that?
13:04:49 <locosage> yep
13:04:57 <locosage> nml doesn't but I do in grf-py
13:05:04 <locosage> can even recompile horse xD
13:05:58 <peter1138> I don't see any support for that in NewSpriteSet()
13:08:37 <locosage> it's in LoadNextSprite, it only reads sprite id and uses index to find data
13:09:23 <locosage>
13:09:47 <locosage> needs container v2 ofc
13:10:11 <peter1138> Okay, so it's "abusing" container v2 by reusing offsets. Interesting.
13:10:18 <andythenorth> so Horse is 40% smaller with grf-py?
13:10:20 <peter1138> That will still duplicate sprites in memory though.
13:10:36 <locosage> andythenorth: yeah
13:10:42 <peter1138> So optimizing and reusing sprites is still better.
13:10:49 <locosage> decompiler misses some features though so it doesn't fully wor
13:10:53 <locosage> but it is smaller xD
13:10:54 <andythenorth> so about 18MB instead of about 30MB
13:13:00 <locosage> it reports 6359918 bytes of duplicates that can be removed
13:16:42 <locosage> locosage: tried that here (that's a reply, irc people :p)
13:21:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #11487: Feature: Show cargo icon on cargo filter lists.
13:21:58 <peter1138[d]>
13:22:09 <peter1138> Built-in random reverse?
13:22:23 <andythenorth> yair
13:22:26 <andythenorth> needs to be a thing
13:22:35 <andythenorth> Horse 4: Small Horse
13:22:48 <andythenorth> I mean...the nfo is 64MB for Horse
13:22:49 <peter1138> No, I mean, this is a thing.
13:23:04 <andythenorth> only when you merge it ๐Ÿ˜›
13:23:15 <andythenorth> or is it hidden in the spec?
13:23:50 <peter1138[d]>
13:23:55 <andythenorth> nice
13:23:56 <peter1138> lllegal multi-head.
13:24:06 <andythenorth> multi-head is always why we can't have nice things ๐Ÿ™‚
13:24:20 <peter1138> "Can't reverse direction of vehicle... ... consists of multiple units"
13:24:30 <peter1138> Do we need that restriction?
13:25:11 <andythenorth> 'maybe'
13:25:52 <peter1138> Articulated parts?
13:25:52 <peter1138> Hmm
13:27:40 <andythenorth> only 171 Horse vehicles using random_bits_reversed_engine()
13:27:46 <andythenorth> oh, but variants share varact 2 chain
13:27:47 <andythenorth> ok
13:28:27 <peter1138> [ Always forward, 25% reverse, 50% reverse, Always reverse ]
13:28:47 <peter1138> Not sure if Always reverse is useful.
13:29:19 <andythenorth> probability of reverse, 0-255?
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13:29:41 <andythenorth> 255 being an ideal way to express %
13:34:34 <peter1138> Eh, I'm missing something, there must be an obvious way to turn take a random number and a value and use it as a probability.
13:41:56 <andythenorth> /me thinks
13:50:18 <peter1138> Okay.
13:50:53 <peter1138> `p + Random(255) >= 255;`
13:51:19 <peter1138> But with my current method of using 2 flags, that means 0, 33, 66 and 100% chance of reversing.
13:53:49 <andythenorth> no middle value ๐Ÿ˜›
13:53:55 <peter1138> Exactly.
13:54:03 <andythenorth> 0, 25, 50, 75 ๐Ÿ˜›
13:54:07 <andythenorth> 2 bits?
13:54:20 <peter1138> If "always reverse" is not necessary, perhaps.
13:54:36 <andythenorth> at some level, can't the author just redraw the damn sprites in that case ๐Ÿ˜›
13:54:44 <andythenorth> this is action 0 props, not callback result?
13:54:56 <andythenorth> redraw / reorder the spriteset
13:55:27 <peter1138> This is using 2 bits of ExtraFlags, so doesn't needed adding a property.
13:55:48 <peter1138> Which is naughty but I started with 1 flag for "forward" and "random reverse"
13:56:01 <andythenorth> ok, so there's no need to handle "this train was always built backwards in January 1963 because the factory was still drunk"
13:56:11 <andythenorth> or all that other shit that we come up with as a community
13:57:23 <peter1138> Someone will ;)
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14:01:47 <peter1138> _pruple, did you ever do randomised reversed engines? If so what probabilities?
14:03:29 <andythenorth> FWIW Horse is just a single bit
14:03:41 <peter1138> 50%
14:04:10 <andythenorth>
14:04:10 <andythenorth> aren't Variants nice?
14:04:12 <peter1138> Oh yeah, doing it this way also frees up random bits.
14:04:22 <andythenorth> you added plenty of random bits ๐Ÿ˜›
14:04:28 <peter1138> Did I?
14:04:33 <andythenorth> are they in a release yet? ๐Ÿ˜›
14:04:53 <peter1138> Oh I upped it from 8 to 16 bits.
14:04:55 <peter1138> How strange.
14:04:59 <andythenorth>
14:05:02 <peter1138> I bet I didn't update the docs.
14:05:28 <andythenorth> "someone" did
14:06:27 <peter1138> Okay, so with this we can just undo that ;)
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14:07:48 <andythenorth> super ๐Ÿ™‚
14:08:26 <andythenorth> well the smart author will read the random reversed state, then flip the sprites in the graphics to always be forward facing
14:08:49 <andythenorth> then invert the available random bits using the random reversed state bits
14:08:55 <andythenorth> to increase the total random
14:09:08 <andythenorth> two sources of random innit
14:09:49 <peter1138> 0%, 16%, 33%, 50%
14:11:09 <peter1138> If you want 67%, 84%, 100% then set up a spriteset in reverse...
14:11:18 <peter1138> How about I delete myself.
14:11:34 <peter1138> 1 bit, 0% or 50%
14:13:18 <andythenorth> 1 bit worked for me
14:13:45 <andythenorth> I know that if someone is modelling Paddington for August 27th 1963 they'll want an accurate representation of how many tank engines came out of Old Oak Common that day backwards
14:13:50 <andythenorth> but then again...ctrl-click?
14:14:05 <peter1138> Right, this is just for randomness.
14:14:47 <andythenorth> 1 bit is enough IMHO
14:14:56 <andythenorth> there are only 2 directions I think?
14:14:58 <peter1138> Why is this other pi repeatedly sending a DHCPREQUEST.
14:15:10 <andythenorth> it's feeling lonely
14:15:22 <andythenorth> it wants a secure parental relationship
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14:43:07 <peter1138> Sorted it.
14:48:03 <_glx_> andythenorth: there's a PR using advanced action 1, but it's very basic
14:50:10 <andythenorth>
14:50:10 <andythenorth> Scunthorpe to Chippenham via Newmarket? Branch to Kingston?
14:51:13 <peter1138> Your system is drawing zoomed-out sprites and then pixel-doubling them.
14:51:29 <andythenorth> you think? ๐Ÿ™‚
14:52:11 <_glx_> retina
14:52:29 <andythenorth> HiDPI
14:52:50 <peter1138> It's not retina if it's all pixel-doubled...
14:53:25 <peter1138> Can we handle the scaling ourselves...
14:54:02 <peter1138> Of course, having to to 8x to be equivalent to 4x might be an issue :)
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15:05:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] tamlin-mike commented on issue #11488: [Bug]: spritecache excessive size
15:08:13 <truebrain> okay, so yeah, his initial post failed to show the context required to understand what he meant ๐Ÿ™‚
15:08:33 <truebrain> 32bit Windows upper memory limit .. that was .. yeah, not clear ๐Ÿ˜›
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15:09:40 <peter1138> So.
15:10:00 <peter1138> When we added the sprite pre-scaling system, 2x and 4x zoom in sprites didn't exist.
15:10:42 <peter1138> Why did pre-scaling everything? Was it performance or issues with drawing zoomed out sprites...
15:11:52 <georgevb> andythenorth: Does NML supports 16 random bits?
15:13:38 <peter1138> Should do.
15:14:20 <LordAro> truebrain: specifies using Win10 64bit in the initial issue
15:14:23 <LordAro> curious.
15:15:27 <andythenorth> georgevb: spec page says yes, and links the NML pull request ๐Ÿ˜‰
15:16:49 <peter1138> Previous build when it was SVN. Hmm.
15:16:51 <peter1138> Well.
15:17:08 <LordAro> that's been quite a while now
15:17:13 <LordAro> 2018?
15:17:15 <peter1138> We still had 32bpp and 4x extra zoom back then.
15:17:32 <truebrain> it is also mostly virtual memory
15:17:46 <georgevb> Good news, I had to use random bits of the parts in ARVs to get more random bits. 16 bits would make situation a bit better. A pity, that it is not 32 bits
15:17:49 <truebrain> so it is more an argument about purity, than anything actually going on
15:20:10 <peter1138> It is not 32 bits because variable shifts the random bits by 8, so you'd lose the top 8 bits.
15:20:33 <peter1138> But 16 bits is a lot of combinations.
15:21:02 <peter1138> ...
15:21:05 <peter1138> variable 5F
15:22:33 <peter1138> truebrain, s/[Bug]/[Opinion]/ ?
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15:23:11 <truebrain> I btw am somewhat surprised the `new byte[]` doesn't actually allocate the memory
15:23:20 <truebrain> (well, it does virtually, but not in RSS)
15:23:26 <truebrain> neither on Windows, nor on Linux
15:23:36 <truebrain> only once we write in the block, it is actually allocated
15:23:48 <truebrain> expected we would have to use `mmap` to do that, honestly
15:24:02 <LordAro> quite common with modern allocators, iirc
15:24:05 <peter1138> That is normal.
15:24:08 <truebrain> it is nice
15:25:10 <peter1138> Probably the switch of default blitter from 8bpp to 32bpp made it noticable.
15:26:10 <peter1138> 1 byte/pixel to 6 bytes/pixel (iirc) is quite a jump.
15:26:25 <truebrain> 1 -> 4?
15:26:30 <truebrain> where does the 6 come from? ๐Ÿ˜„
15:26:51 <peter1138> Oh, it's 40bpp, not 48 :)
15:26:54 <peter1138> 5 bytes/pixel
15:27:01 <truebrain> owh, OpenGL
15:27:03 <peter1138> 32bpp + 8bpp mask.
15:27:15 <truebrain> ah, that 40
15:27:16 <truebrain> fair
15:39:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #11488: [Bug]: spritecache excessive size
15:39:10 <truebrain> I had to double-check you could actually overcommit the memory, but you can
15:39:25 <truebrain> so they can still run 40 instances of OpenTTD in the same amount of (actual) memory ๐Ÿ˜›
15:39:37 <truebrain> it was a bit troublesome to validate, as I have 64GB of RAM ๐Ÿ˜›
15:41:41 <peter1138> I managed to get Gnome Maps to OOM the other day.
15:42:09 <peter1138> Actually I also managed to get OpenTTD to OOM the other day, with that GetStringHeight(..., 0) call :)
15:42:15 <truebrain> nice ๐Ÿ˜„
15:42:27 <truebrain> I am still surprised, that `new byte[]` is mostly virtual .. that feels so weird ๐Ÿ˜›
15:42:31 <peter1138> There is an assert there now.
15:42:55 <truebrain> it throws an exception when it tries the actual allocation, it seems (if it doesn't fit)
15:43:03 <peter1138> I think it OOMed hard enough to kill VS Code and X11, which made debugging harder.
15:43:51 <truebrain> anyway, that makes it a rather non-sense ticket ... as the OS handles all the shit nicely for us ๐Ÿ˜„
15:44:05 <truebrain> unexpected ๐Ÿ™‚
15:44:42 <truebrain> curious if I missed something there ...
15:46:06 <peter1138[d]>
15:46:09 <peter1138> That's a pretty solid 50%.
15:48:36 <locosage> is that memory used continuously as sprite cache populates? os probably allocates it in pages so if there are gaps it may actually use more than necessary
16:07:09 <_jgr_> The sprite cache implements it's own heap/allocator type of structure on top of the single memory block
16:07:33 <_jgr_> It can get fragmented so probably will use more memory than strictly necessary
16:07:56 <peter1138> It can be fragmented but won't deliberately leave big gaps.
16:08:33 <_jgr_> The allocator/memory management is not great, so replacing it with something simpler which doesn't use a big slab would probably be a net benefit
16:09:47 <peter1138> Yes, it's mostly a left-over from C-style code where your choices are more limited.
16:15:56 <locosage> btw, I'm not sure it's even useful to have a cache
16:16:12 <locosage> I mean sprites obv need to be in memory but having something with max size seems pointless
16:16:35 <locosage> most sprites are used very often in openttd so once that limit is reached game starts to lag terribly
16:17:32 <_jgr_> The slowness when that happens is because the cache eviction algorithm is not very good
16:18:37 <locosage> for any eviction algorithm to work you need to have lots of srites that aren't used often
16:19:08 <peter1138> That works... when you're not zoomed out.
16:19:44 <_jgr_> In the zoomed out case, not caching the zoomed in sprites makes the problem go away
16:21:25 <locosage> it doesn't take that much of a zooming for cache limit to become a problem
16:21:35 <locosage> as it's not good when game lags when scrolling either
16:22:34 <locosage> also having a viewport on everything doesn't help either
16:24:59 <_jgr_> For what it's worth, I've got sprite caching on a per-zoom level basis, and a different sprite cache allocation model and eviction algorithm in my branch it seems to work fine
16:25:16 <_jgr_> Scrolling is a separate issue of the most part
16:27:17 <peter1138> This is also a problem with the idea of generating a texture atlas... we have no idea what is going to be used in advance.
16:27:41 <locosage> I can see cache being useful if there is something like epoch change when lots of stuff just change appearance permanently
16:27:59 <locosage> but that is probably best solved by unloading long unused sprites than some kind of size limit
16:29:20 <LordAro> _jgr_: patches appreciated ;)
16:29:32 <locosage> imo in a typical game it's safe to assume that pretty much all sprites will be used
16:29:57 <peter1138> LordAro, we don't do that. Hints to the fact they exist is nice though ;)
16:30:35 <locosage> well, climate aside that is
16:31:55 <peter1138> Hmm, 177 active connections. Such a home network.
16:32:23 <_jgr_> I'll look into turning it into a PR
16:32:40 <_jgr_> locosage: The whole conversation earlier about jumbo GRFs suggest otherwise
16:35:29 <locosage> jumbo grfs?
16:35:59 <locosage> as I see it the most (by size) sprites are for "empty map" stuff: landscape, towns, industries
16:36:09 <locosage> and those don't change like ever
16:36:23 <locosage> ofs some grfs can do weird stuff but in the most games that won't happen
16:37:04 <peter1138> Don't forget the giant cat objects.
16:37:24 <locosage> well, those are pretty static too
16:37:33 <_jgr_> I mean things like 5000+ trains in Iron Horse, all with their own sprites
16:37:48 <peter1138> :D
16:37:49 <_jgr_> There's no point pre-loading in all those sprites as the vast majority will never be nedded
16:39:19 <locosage> I'm not talking about pre-loading here, I'm talking not unloading them
16:39:25 <locosage> or at least not unloading by size limit
16:39:56 <locosage> once some train is used it's sprites are likely to be needed quite often
16:42:33 <peter1138> Ooh, and 260 IPv6 connections.
16:42:38 <peter1138> More IPv6 than IPv4.
16:44:28 <locosage> As I see it better approach would be to unload all but ui sprites on every game load/start. Then load sprites as they're needed and only unload if they aren't used for a long time.
16:44:56 <locosage> I guess obvious landscape sprites can be preloaded/not unloaded on game start
16:49:12 <peter1138> All sprites are unloaded on game start.
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17:36:42 <pickpacket> andythenorth: is there room for more cargo types and industries in FIRS?
17:36:51 <pickpacket> and vehicles
17:39:59 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #11489: Feature: Randomize direction of rail vehicle on build based on extra flags.
17:40:28 <peter1138> Iron Horse can probably shrink a bit with that.
17:43:32 <andythenorth> peter1138: or is it 49%?
17:43:40 <andythenorth> or 51%?
17:44:59 <andythenorth> pickpacket: depends on the FIRS economy
17:46:05 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #11489: Feature: Randomize direction of rail vehicle on build based on extra flags.
17:46:12 <peter1138> The probability is 0-3 / 6ths
17:46:21 <peter1138> So 50%.
17:46:51 <andythenorth> hmm, is that democracy though?
17:47:00 <andythenorth> what's the will of the people re: random reverse?
17:47:13 <peter1138> Yes, I voted for it, and nobody else dissented.
17:49:49 <andythenorth> must be then
17:57:38 <peter1138> Why can I not find this power supply? :(
17:58:19 <peter1138> Hmm, a random intel microcode update.
18:07:23 <locosage> 0-3 sounds like 4/6 :p
18:07:59 <LordAro> andythenorth: 52%
18:08:35 <peter1138> Hah
18:09:18 <peter1138> locosage, only if you add two rounds together.
18:09:41 <peter1138> But then why stop at two? 0-3 sounds like 666/6.
18:11:26 <locosage> I read it as 0, 1, 2, 3 vs 4, 5
18:12:01 <peter1138> Well you read it wrong.
18:37:04 <_zephyris> So... Crazy Friday idea. Can we use the unused palette entries for a few extra palette animations?
18:37:15 <_zephyris> Well, I know I _can_, I've already got code working. The real question is _should_ we?
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18:44:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #11487: Feature: Show cargo icon on cargo filter lists.
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19:39:25 <peter1138[d]> Well
19:41:00 <andythenorth> _zephyris: I have counted them a few times to this end ๐Ÿ˜›
19:41:31 <andythenorth> Where is truebrainโ€™s bug report about water slopes? ๐Ÿ˜›
19:44:23 <peter1138[d]> Heh
19:45:36 <andythenorth> We donโ€™t have enough water shades
19:45:49 <locosage> may be useful deep water
19:46:26 <_zephyris> Yeah we do, just use a 32bpp image with an 8bpp mask
19:46:58 <_zephyris> Shades aren't the problem, it's different animation cycles.
19:47:34 <locosage> shades aren't problem in 32bpp
19:49:51 <_zephyris> ... But I would suggest adding another darker water cycle. A 4 step one with a slow cycle time
19:50:40 <_zephyris> Plus a dark red cycle perfect for fire in combo with the existing orange. And flashing green and yellow, like the level crossing lights.
19:55:09 <andythenorth> _zephyris: Does that work in openttd.grf?
19:56:39 <andythenorth>
19:57:03 <andythenorth> ^ includes comments from me on water cycle, with mockups
19:57:48 <locosage> it doesn't work with 8bpp blitter
19:57:55 <locosage> which should probably be abandoned anyway
19:58:27 <frosch123> but it only needs 16MB
20:08:51 <andythenorth> Works on a 386
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20:10:24 <peter1138> My 386 only had 1MB RAM, so it didn't.
20:11:13 <frosch123> did it have a turbo button though?
20:14:27 <pickpacket> andythenorth: Iโ€™m wondering if I can add my tea newgrf to it ๐Ÿ˜„ I canโ€™t possibly play without tea ๐Ÿ˜‰
20:14:47 <peter1138> It did. 8MHz or 16Mhz.
20:15:17 <andythenorth> Wonder how much ram my first computer had
20:15:41 <peter1138> 32KB
20:15:55 <andythenorth> Close
20:15:59 <andythenorth> 32MB
20:16:23 <andythenorth> Only out by 1000
20:16:26 <peter1138[d]>
20:21:23 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> 32MB <- mine had 4MB :O
20:24:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] George-VB commented on issue #9031: Rivers going uphill are nearly impossible to distinguish from flat river
20:24:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] George-VB commented on issue #9031: Rivers going uphill are nearly impossible to distinguish from flat river
20:26:33 <andythenorth>
20:27:18 <andythenorth> We had an Acorn, but it wasnโ€™t โ€œmineโ€ ๐Ÿ˜›
20:34:34 <peter1138> You weren't meant to steal them from school.
20:45:43 <andythenorth> my parents were teachers ๐Ÿ˜›
20:45:50 <andythenorth> weekends, the computers came home ๐Ÿ˜›
20:48:10 <peter1138> Okay but.
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20:50:40 <andythenorth> we did buy an archimedes, but my mum had pre-emption rights on it
20:50:43 <andythenorth> to play Repton
20:51:07 <andythenorth> then my brother got a pentium from whatever that high street chain was that went bust
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20:56:31 <andythenorth> might have been gateway, can't remember
20:58:04 <andythenorth> that had TTO or TTD on it
20:58:23 <andythenorth> I only remember temperate so maybe TTO, and the signals were crap
21:09:37 <andythenorth>
21:09:37 <andythenorth> such river slopes
21:09:40 <andythenorth> invisible
21:12:12 <andythenorth> did we port JGR's multiple-cargo ships to vanilla yet?
21:26:07 <andythenorth> hmm cargodist eh
21:26:21 <andythenorth> kinda doesn't work does it?
21:27:03 <andythenorth> trains going A to B just aren't loading cargo at station A, even though target next hop is B
21:27:28 <andythenorth> does cdist distinguish between shared order groups when choosing to load cargo?
21:27:34 <andythenorth> e.g. does it see them as separate edges?
21:29:44 <andythenorth>
21:29:44 <andythenorth> this train just left Ivy Bridge and is the next edge to Red Lumb
21:29:50 <andythenorth> it's left mostly empty
21:30:28 <andythenorth> this train is heading directly to Red Lumb, and has also failed to load pax
21:30:30 <andythenorth>
21:31:20 <LordAro> _zephyris: there's a PR somewhere for "deep water", so another water cycle might be ideal
21:31:39 <LordAro> oh, locosage said that :D
21:31:46 <andythenorth> two water cycles ๐Ÿ˜›
21:31:48 <andythenorth> dark and light
21:32:17 <andythenorth>
21:32:17 <andythenorth> this train now left empty from Ivy Bridge
21:32:22 <andythenorth> cdist is just broken isn't it
21:32:29 <_pruple> andythenorth: soda and tap
21:32:52 <_pruple> andythenorth: skill issue, clearly
21:32:57 <andythenorth> clearly
21:33:06 <andythenorth> skill in reporting reproducible bugs? ๐Ÿ˜›
21:33:13 <talltyler> andythenorth: Use OpenGFX2, itโ€™s very obvious (and looks quite similar to original TTD) ๐Ÿ™‚
21:33:15 <andythenorth> Github skills?
21:33:37 <andythenorth> is cdist broken because I am using grfs not available on bananas?
21:34:30 <andythenorth> talltyler: can it be ported to openttd.grf?
21:34:35 <andythenorth> (the slope approach)
21:35:01 <talltyler> Ask _zephyris I guess?
21:41:08 <andythenorth> ok so is there a guide to making cdist work anywhere?
21:41:21 <andythenorth> do I have to create routes in a specific way or something?
21:42:46 <andythenorth>
21:42:46 <andythenorth> mail train is going to Chippenham, has not loaded cargo
21:48:54 <andythenorth> lol it's just broken
21:49:03 <andythenorth> ok well that savegame is dead ๐Ÿ˜›
21:51:45 <_jgr_> Perhaps post the save?
21:51:53 <andythenorth> unreleased grfs
21:51:55 <andythenorth> as always ๐Ÿ˜›
21:52:12 <andythenorth> I wonder if players actually look at what cdist does
21:52:23 <andythenorth> or if they just assume the broken behaviour is as intended
21:53:41 <_jgr_> It works fine on my machine ๐Ÿ˜›
21:53:49 <andythenorth> that's what everyone else tells me ๐Ÿ™‚
21:54:23 <andythenorth>
21:54:23 <andythenorth> are my settings inappropriate?
21:55:42 <_jgr_> It seems OK? I'd have the effect of distance on demand higher, but it's not going to matter much on a small map
21:56:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #11490: Codechange: Build dropdown toolbar menus from explicit lists of strings.
21:58:30 <talltyler> โ€œAny stationโ€ behavior is a bit odd sometimes. If cargo has chosen a destination, it always seems to behave as expected โ€” at least for me ๐Ÿ™‚
22:09:36 <LordAro> peter1138: while you're in the area, add the missing two characters to PopupMainToolbMenu ?
22:09:43 <peter1138> LOL
22:10:46 <LordAro> :p
22:11:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #11490: Codechange: Build dropdown toolbar menus from explicit lists of strings.
22:12:58 <LordAro> :D
22:18:06 <peter1138> Hmm, I better sign up for tomorrow's ride in case I wake up lazy...
22:20:09 <peter1138> Feels like: -3ยฐC
22:20:10 <peter1138> Oh.
22:20:52 <peter1138> Rises to feeling like 1ยฐC by midday.
22:21:01 <peter1138> Maybe I shouldn't've signed up.
22:21:10 <andythenorth> oof
22:21:38 <andythenorth>
22:21:38 <andythenorth> broken cdist save
22:21:43 <andythenorth> I'll find the grfs
22:23:19 <andythenorth>
22:26:36 <peter1138> Loading that game spends a LOT of time in AddGRFString.
22:26:55 <andythenorth> is that why cdist is broken? ๐Ÿ˜›
22:27:04 <andythenorth> I am waiting to see what the amusing user error will be
22:27:10 <andythenorth> some button I have forgotten to press
22:27:34 <_pruple> the fix cargodist button?
22:27:52 <_pruple> probably ctrl-click
22:28:18 <peter1138> I only loaded it to have access to your super secret unreleased NewGRFs.
22:30:28 <andythenorth> fair point
22:30:34 <andythenorth> non-bananas grfs
22:31:38 <andythenorth> are they the best kind?
22:40:29 <_zephyris> andythenorth: Yup, should work seamlessly.
22:40:39 <_zephyris> Presumably I can do a PR
22:41:32 <_zephyris> LordAro: Mmm, I think I'll try that then. Water is such a prominent use of animated palette it's probably worth the dedicated indices
22:57:35 <peter1138> I guess I should build a non-debug build.
23:00:43 <_jgr_> Your save is full of implicit orders
23:01:03 <_jgr_> You need to get rid of all of them and make sure that all order are non-stop
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23:05:57 <andythenorth> we what now? ๐Ÿ™‚
23:06:11 <andythenorth> then how will intermediate stations be served?
23:06:26 <_jgr_> By adding them to the order list of course
23:06:33 <andythenorth> why?
23:06:38 <andythenorth> they're implicit ๐Ÿ™‚
23:06:50 <andythenorth> implicit orders were added explicitly to support cdist no?
23:07:03 <_jgr_> No wonder cdist never works in your save games
23:07:40 <andythenorth> what is the purpose of implicit orders except to add nodes to the linkgraph?
23:08:09 <_jgr_> Implicit orders are needed to load old saves
23:08:21 <_jgr_> If it were up to me I'd get rid of them, they're just a nuisance
23:08:38 <andythenorth> hmm
23:08:57 <andythenorth> well it's a long time since they were added and I'm too lazy to dig out the release notes
23:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... when viewing a html file in github, is there a way to actually render it instead of seeing the raw text?
23:09:10 <andythenorth> at the time I formed an impression they were a cdist feature
23:12:27 <_jgr_> They pre-date cdist significantly
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23:13:05 <michi_cc[d]> cdist should use them, but as I'd guess a lot more people play with non-stop orders, it might have gotten broken somewhere along the line.
23:13:37 <andythenorth> so I need to add explicit orders for every node I want in cdist?
23:14:28 <peter1138> michi_cc[d], I'm assuming this is one those "everyone knows it doesn't work" things, without realising that maybe it is meant to work...
23:14:51 <andythenorth> I'm probably just playing it wrong ๐Ÿ™‚
23:14:56 <andythenorth> I predicted it would be user error
23:15:41 <peter1138> How do I time execution...
23:15:46 <peter1138> Is it TIC/TOC ? :D
23:18:36 <peter1138> No, too many scope issues.
23:20:32 <_zephyris> Uch, why so many water slope variants? It's going to take me ages to code!
23:22:55 <andythenorth> yeah ๐Ÿ˜›
23:23:04 <andythenorth> I had to draw so many for openttd.grf
23:23:16 <andythenorth> "blame TTDP" ๐Ÿ™‚
23:25:30 <_zephyris> That's my default state!
23:25:57 <_zephyris> Mostly for getting me hooked again on TTD in the early '00s
23:27:33 <_zephyris> It's been a very long time since I nfo coded...
23:28:05 <andythenorth> ok so cdist needs all orders to be non-stop?
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23:30:14 <peter1138> "no" but "yes"
23:30:49 <peter1138> In theory it shouldn't, but it seems it may be broken, and that is considered normal.
23:31:02 <andythenorth> I've replaced all implicit orders with explicit, but trains are still leaving without being full
23:31:15 <andythenorth> train capacity 168 / 1000 pax at the station waiting
23:31:19 <_glx_> it takes time to clean up
23:31:28 <andythenorth> real time, or ffwd time?
23:31:38 <_glx_> and cdist doesn't imply lull load
23:31:55 <_glx_> usually you don't want full load orders
23:31:59 <_jgr_> Because you originally had the direct links to the termini in the train orders, those were added to the link graph
23:32:09 <andythenorth>
23:32:09 <andythenorth> now it's re-adding the implicit orders
23:32:13 <andythenorth> so it does need full load?
23:32:23 <andythenorth> oops non-stop, not full load
23:32:47 <peter1138> full load is always needed to stop accidental implicit orders.
23:32:48 <_jgr_> There is a setting to make non-stop the default for new orders
23:32:50 <peter1138> WTF
23:32:51 <peter1138> non-stop
23:32:52 <peter1138> :p
23:33:24 <_glx_> I see what you did here ๐Ÿ™‚
23:33:47 <andythenorth>
23:33:47 <andythenorth> ok so I changed this
23:33:57 <andythenorth> I've been playing wrong since 2008
23:34:01 <andythenorth> only 15 years
23:34:55 <andythenorth> non-stop will prevent servicing though?
23:35:06 <_glx_> should not
23:35:13 <_glx_> but path signals may
23:35:26 <peter1138> It's not wrong.
23:36:08 <_glx_> once train has reserved a track, it won't find a near by depot
23:36:19 <andythenorth> wonder how long it takes to fix the linkgraph
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23:36:54 <_glx_> "service at" orders are a better solution
23:37:08 <andythenorth>
23:37:08 <andythenorth> these 1033 pax are just not loading
23:37:29 <andythenorth> is there some button now to clear cargo from a station?
23:37:47 <andythenorth> eh, so when players frequently report cdist overwhelms stations, is it just this?
23:37:54 <andythenorth> they're playing wrong?
23:37:55 <_glx_> they should vanish after some time
23:38:27 <andythenorth> /me ffwd
23:39:29 <_glx_> /me should remember to set FFWD limit next time I launch the game
23:39:49 <andythenorth> well it's 4 game years so far
23:39:51 <andythenorth> no change
23:39:54 <_zephyris> Err, is there an (easy) way to make just the orig_extra grf?
23:40:17 <_glx_> it's a target in build system
23:40:37 <andythenorth> 6 game years
23:40:45 <_glx_> but you need grfcodec, and tell cmake where it is
23:41:10 <andythenorth> /me got bored of waiting
23:41:22 <andythenorth> turn cdist off I think
23:41:34 <talltyler> _jgr_: I have half a patch to hide them behind a setting for Workflow.png
23:41:44 <talltyler> And old saves, I guess
23:42:01 <andythenorth> why don't vehicles only stop at stations they have orders for?
23:42:06 <andythenorth> this non-stop thing is a footgun
23:42:49 <_glx_> they skip intermediate when going non-stop to a station
23:43:02 <andythenorth>
23:43:02 <andythenorth> ok even with cdist off, these 1033 pax just won't load
23:44:51 <andythenorth> usually I just play freight, and cdist doesn't work for freight, at least with FIRS
23:44:54 <andythenorth> so eh ๐Ÿ™‚
23:49:56 <andythenorth> so....point-to-point is best?
23:53:07 <andythenorth> sleep is best ๐Ÿ˜„