IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-11-22
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00:38:15 <_glx_> you don't need to switch I think, just iterate the copy of the list and update the list
00:40:44 <peter1138> Oh, he is still not bridged :)
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05:40:49 <kamnet> Somebody please remind me, for airplanes and helicopters:
05:40:49 <kamnet> 1. Is maximum take-off weight required?
05:40:49 <kamnet> 2. Is engine power required?
05:40:49 <kamnet> 3. What unit is range measured it?
05:43:42 <goddess_ishtar> I would assume engine power is required yes
05:43:48 <goddess_ishtar> like it is for other vehicles
05:44:26 <goddess_ishtar> actually let me get the documentation
05:45:44 <goddess_ishtar> if you're not using NML, I don't know which part of the GRF spec covers this
05:47:35 <goddess_ishtar> it appears that the range property just takes an integer, and it's listed as Euclidean distance, so I am strongly inclined to believe it's in tiles
05:47:50 <emperorjake> I don't think there's a property for engine power in aircraft
05:48:54 <goddess_ishtar> aircraft are kinda weird honestly
05:48:54 <emperorjake> Range is displayed in tiles yes
05:49:05 <goddess_ishtar> since they have both pax and mail compartments
05:50:24 <emperorjake> The mail is actually carried in the shadow
05:51:59 <goddess_ishtar> that knowledge is wonderfully cursed
05:54:12 <_pruple> emperorjake: acceleration could be thought of as "power", more or less.
05:54:22 <_pruple> and range is a BAD FEATURE 😉
05:56:13 <goddess_ishtar> still not quite sure what you mean by that
05:57:08 <emperorjake> Range is bad because OpenTTD maps vary wildly in scale
05:57:37 <emperorjake> for example I like to simulate short haul flights by sending a 737 across a 4000 tile map
05:57:51 <emperorjake> which is impossible in regular av8 since it only has a few hundred tiles range
05:58:37 <goddess_ishtar> so a BAD FEATURE is something that aritrarily restricts playstyles
06:00:18 <_pruple> it's very subjective, but usually it's something that seemed like a good idea at the time, but isn't.
06:01:15 <_pruple> also it's a meme at this point, used by certain members of the community either to be self-deprecating, or to agree to disagree on design choices. 🙂
06:11:40 <goddess_ishtar> oh *wow* that thread got heated quickly
06:14:24 <goddess_ishtar> clearly the solution to plane ranges are to scale them according to the size of the map :p
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06:27:15 <_pruple> plane ranges are BAD because the "problem" they were intended to solve was people building routes with the biggest planes from one corner of the map to the other
06:28:26 <_pruple> unfortunately, realism dictates that the largest aircraft also have the longest range. so using the feature (at least, using it "realistically") just makes smaller aircraft less useful - it just reinforces the playstyle it was intended to defeat.
07:38:37 <kamnet> _pruple: how is acceleration calculated?
07:41:07 <kamnet> Actually I should rethink that question.
07:41:07 <kamnet> I'm working on revamping all my stats sheets for various type of vehicles that could be useful in OpenTTD. I'm trying to figure out what information to provide that would be beneficial to somebody wanting to code a vehicle in order to be as historically accurate as possible.
07:43:25 <_pruple> It's just how quickly planes pick up speed after taking off... Iirc you want pretty small values (single digit), and it's only really noticeable on planes with a high top speed.
07:43:25 <_pruple> I can tell you the values I use for av9 when I get home if you like.
07:43:35 <rau117> _pruple: Maybe then add «disable airplane range» as a cheat code? (but setting would be better)
07:43:35 <rau117> So the player can decide for himself whether he needs to follow the «rules of realism», or whether he can run an A380 on a short runway or fly on DC-3 through a 4k² map.
07:44:10 <goddess_ishtar> I was under the impression that most grfs had it as a parameter anyway
07:45:32 <kamnet> I think AV8 is the only set that explicitly included it with no way to disable it, and later versions of WAS made it enbled/or disabled, but no other sets use it (I could be wrong. Probably wrong)
07:45:42 <goddess_ishtar> I was being facetious when I suggested scaling range to the map size because I assumed it was just impossible but I've nerdsniped myself trying to see if that's actually the case
07:45:59 <goddess_ishtar> in any case it would be a nightmare in gameplay
07:48:56 <goddess_ishtar> yeah properties have to be set at compile time right
07:49:03 <goddess_ishtar> and there's no range callback
07:49:07 <goddess_ishtar> so no, not possible
07:49:34 <kamnet> _pruple: That might be helpful. I can list the raw numbers for cruise speed, range and total engine power, but I need ways to convey this in terms that a person can just plug a number right into a template.
07:50:44 <peter1138> The acceleration 'units' for aircraft are ⅜ mph/tick. Yes.
07:51:33 <goddess_ishtar> is it one of those values that comes out to some nice round number in metric but looks awful in Imperial?
07:52:03 <goddess_ishtar> why *three eighths*
07:52:21 <goddess_ishtar> that's horrible
07:55:47 <_pruple> Fwiw, yes you can scale range to map size, grf can test map size and the property can be set with cb36. But if you're scaling it so your favourite plane can always cross the map, the question becomes why use the feature at all?
07:55:59 <kamnet> peter1138: Would it be better to report speed as mph instead of kph?
07:56:59 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: the idea would be to preserve the ranges relative to each other, instead of absolute tiles
07:57:10 <goddess_ishtar> I didn't say it was a *good* idea
07:57:32 <_pruple> It's planes, so it should be knots. 😉
07:57:32 <_pruple> Also, if you're building a realistic stat table, watch out for airspeed vs ground speed...
07:58:11 <goddess_ishtar> to be fair, most of the ideas I have are not good ones
07:58:40 <locosage> goddess_ishtar: still better than 3125/1397 :p
07:58:53 <locosage> or whatever ratio speeds have
08:03:06 <locosage> the joys of openttd unit conversion xD
08:05:29 <locosage> and road vehicles have 2 speed properties, one with better precision and another with better range 😵💫
08:06:47 <locosage> oh, and speed callback with even wider range xD
08:07:23 <kamnet> OK so I'm good with speed in kmh and cargo weights in metric tons
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09:52:21 <peter1138> Made it unreadable to fit it all on...
09:54:32 <_pruple> kamnet: huh, fwiw in sunshine/av9 I use the speed (in base speed units, ie 8 mph) / 10 for acceleration.
09:55:36 <_pruple> so the airship, which does (an unrealistically fast) 80 mph/128 kmh, has an acceleration of 1, up to the conc, which does 1280mph and has an acceleration of 16.
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10:03:01 <_pruple> takes the conc about 100 tiles to reach top speed
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10:06:02 <ahyangyi> peter1138: What about OTIS?
10:06:19 <ahyangyi> I'm under the impression that OTIS industries have even more accepted cargos
10:06:53 <ahyangyi> And that "eye candy" set is somehow also the UI stress test 😛
10:09:37 <peter1138> I don't know, OTIS doesn't do anything for me.
10:10:38 <peter1138> Or rather, there are no industries created when the map is generated.
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10:24:15 <emperorjake> That's intentional, OTIS is meant to be a pure eyecandy industry GRF so you place them yourself
10:28:55 <peter1138> A single blank tile with 4 blank signs on it is eyecandy?
10:29:43 <peter1138> It's intentionally useless. Nice.
10:33:12 <ahyangyi> The point is that you can use any eyecandy house to cover it
10:33:42 <ahyangyi> nothing is compatible with everything, so if you do "nothing", you get maximal compatibility, something like that
10:49:20 <peter1138> Calling it an eyecandy GRF implies it has the eyecandy. It doesn't.
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10:55:47 <fairyflossy> It's an eyecandy-supporting grf, imo. It doesn't create eyecandy on it's own, but it makes it easier for players to create their own eyecandy; loaded cargo trains without the need to place specific industry designs and supply them with specific cargoes. Just plop down an OTIS tile, hide it with some decor, and you've got a place that both supplies and accepts a bunch of cargoes without any fuss.
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11:16:26 <nicness> peter1138: is this an actual bot
11:17:32 <nicness> they talk so human its crazy 😟
11:17:41 <_glx_> (it's actually a bridge with IRC channel)
11:17:57 <nicness> LMAO why did i fall for it
11:18:10 <nicness> alright bye then not gonna spam this channel
11:19:46 <peter1138> How do you feel about that?
11:23:35 <LordAro> the 0s and 1s, they hurt so bad
11:45:15 <peter1138> Huh, changing the medium font affects how the small font is rendered.
11:50:13 <xarick> news messages are closing down dropdown menus...
11:53:25 <xarick> Exactly what I'm experiencing
11:53:37 <_glx_> News message steal focus yes
11:53:59 <peter1138> Probably need to add a way to prevent a new window from stealing focus.
11:54:50 <_glx_> And now dropdowns are autoclosed on focus lost, while they used to be "manually" handled
12:08:27 <peter1138> Hmm, does the "Reset all values" button in the settings window reset ALL values, or just those values that are filtered?
12:19:42 <xarick> I am the one to blame, I suppose, I worked there
12:23:19 <xarick> I have an issue regarding the reset all values button somewhere, let me search
12:27:08 <rau117> peter1138: It needs to be done so that when you click on this button, openttd.cfg (and other .cfg's) backup will be created. It may seem useless, but still human errors happen and it is better to have an automatically created backup of settings than to configure everything again. This happened to me once (=
13:38:00 <merni> Would a filter/search for train names in the train list be useful?
13:38:10 <merni> Or am I the only person who extensively names trains :p
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13:56:29 <FLHerne> merni: I feel like groups ought to cover most use-cases?
13:56:36 <FLHerne> and also no-one names trains
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14:03:05 <johnfranklin> LordAro: Lenovo Legion Y7000P 2022
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14:13:24 <merni> FLHerne: Well my particular use case here is giving each train a systematic "train number" in the name field and some of them unique names, because I am a boring realism nerd :p
14:14:07 <merni> FLHerne: It can, though, because it would be an extra UI element on an already quite busy window
14:15:20 <peter1138> modelrailwayer nerd
14:16:39 <merni> I want to be able to find EC 102 "Ligure" at the tip of my fingers
14:42:08 <rau117> There is already a sorting item “by name”. It’s not the most convenient, but it’s still possible to find a train.
14:42:08 <rau117> Although it would be nice to have MORE search menus if there was an option to disable unnecessary ones.
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14:45:19 <merni> > There is already a sorting item “by name”. It’s not the most convenient, but it’s still possible to find a train.
14:45:19 <merni> Of course, but this also requires quite a lot of scrolling if you have many trains.
14:45:19 <merni> > Although it would be nice to have MORE search menus if there was an option to disable unnecessary ones.
14:45:19 <merni> That likely won't be happening; adding more options to disable random things is not something the devs like to do and with good reason
14:46:36 <merni> Quoth `CONTRIBUTING.md`:
14:46:36 <merni> > For a long time, the official branch was also open to features which could be enabled/disabled, but the corner-cases that came with some configurations have rendered some parts of the code very complicated. Today, new features have to work with all the already existing features, which is not only challenging in corner cases, but also requires spending considerable more work than just "making it
14:46:36 <merni> work in the game mode that I play".
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14:47:34 <talltyler> I don't name vehicles, but I do make a lot of groups. I wonder if it would be strange to have one search box that filters both, somehow.
14:52:33 <merni> From a UI layout perspective, at least, I think it'd have to span both the group list and the train list for that to make sense, which would result in a very wide search bar
14:53:39 <merni> Also at present I don't think there is any sorting/filtering of groups at all, whereas vehicles already have sorting by various options and filtering by cargo type
14:54:31 <merni> You could also do something similar to what JGRPP does for its build vehicle list and have two adjacent search bars, one for groups and another for vehicle names
14:55:13 <rau117> merni: Then it would be easier to make 2 separated search boxes and maybe make some «link search boxes» button.
15:28:49 <merni> That seems to be very arbitrary and neither fulfills "total capacity" nor "per cargo type"
15:32:38 <talltyler> peter1138[d]: I'm still having weird issues with #11468, where the vehicle sets itself on time each time it visits a station. No idea how I broke that. Would you be willing to take a look at some point?
15:37:33 <peter1138> Step 1: does it work correctly in master?
15:40:40 <talltyler> I did test in 13.4, missed the possibility of it breaking somewhere since then
15:41:00 <talltyler> And it worked in my previous date-based approach but you never know
15:44:48 <talltyler> It is indeed broken in master
15:45:56 <talltyler> I’ve probably been the only one touching timetable stuff, so I probably broke it previously…let’s take a look at the commit log
15:46:21 <peter1138> The only other thing that could have affected it is when I changed StrongType from casting to .base()
15:46:37 <peter1138> It's not impossible that I mixed up some conversions.
15:47:53 <peter1138[d]> E.g. something might have cast to signed instead of unsigned, perhaps
15:49:52 <talltyler> I would bet on that. Lateness counter uses negative to denote early, and early still works…
15:53:00 <peter1138> Hmm, TimerGameCalendar::Date base type is int32_t anyway so it would stay signed with base()
15:53:19 <talltyler> Yeah perhaps not that
15:53:37 <peter1138> Check the version before 135dd86f :)
15:53:49 <peter1138> If that's still broken then it's not the StrongType changes.
15:54:16 <peter1138> Then we get into the realms of bisect.
15:55:46 <peter1138> I would help but, uh, I so very rarely use timetable I'm not sure how to test properly :)(
15:55:59 <peter1138> (Also it's still $work o'clock)
15:56:13 <talltyler> (Yeah it is for me too :P)
16:01:08 <peter1138> I'm not even sure if StrongType would let you cast with the wrong signedness—that's kinda the point of a strongtype.
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16:25:58 <talltyler> The problem existed before the StrongType changes
16:26:50 <LordAro> peter1138: sounds expensive
16:27:15 <peter1138> Not wrong, $5,495 allegedly.
16:30:07 <talltyler> Wait no, this exists in 13.4 😦
16:30:26 <talltyler> Bisect for sure, but I do need to find when it used to work 🙂
16:30:54 <peter1138> Best to check master rather than release branches though.
16:31:13 <LordAro> bisect can handle such things
16:31:25 <LordAro> but it can make for confusing results
16:31:28 <peter1138> Find a verson not too old...
16:32:05 <_jgr_> If the lateness exceeds the total timetable duration, it's reduced to the modulo value
16:32:13 <_jgr_> It might be that if your test timetabel is short?
16:32:43 <peter1138> "It's working as designed" is always an option, yeah :)
16:41:53 <Rubidium> Why not "it's working as implemented" ;D
16:45:45 <talltyler> Building now, will try again
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16:52:48 <andythenorth> peter1138: Super 8 eh?
16:53:12 <andythenorth> Did 16mm colour once
16:53:35 <andythenorth> Very very physical processes, quite interesting
16:54:11 <andythenorth> did a lot of 35mm stills on film, but nearly all the moving image stuff I did was digital of various kinds
17:26:28 <talltyler> Yep, it's "working as designed"
17:26:48 <talltyler> Ready for review! (and let's see if it passes CI this time, I made an oopsie and got annotations last time)
17:41:32 <xarick> What is the verb used for "calculating the md5 of a file"
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18:08:15 <Rubidium> isn't is just April the 235th? :D
18:09:23 <frosch123> sounds like a daylength issue to me
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18:14:08 <truebrain> frosch123: Should have named him Sam Altman
18:15:07 <frosch123> huh? This is "Open Transport", not "Open AI". S.Altman runs Open AI, T.Newman runs Open Transport
18:16:24 <frosch123> oh, i did not notice that concatenates to Salt-man... Tnew-man does not have the same trick
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18:23:58 <goddess_ishtar> frosch123: wait, you can fire and hire managers?
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21:34:15 <xarick> bing chat doesn't understand my concept of "code repetition" and how to turn my code without repetition
21:39:56 <andythenorth> It’s nice that we have variants
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21:52:03 <andythenorth> We predicted that grf authors would find ways to make them weird
21:52:17 <andythenorth> That prediction was correct 🙂
22:14:50 <_pruple> If only v was still grfing. 🙂
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22:45:34 <peter1138[d]> FFS, another spoke rip 😦
22:51:27 <peter1138[d]> Well. We should have avoided the group word perhaps
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