IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-11-20
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09:05:52 <_zephyris> peter1138: Cargo icons? Or actually industry icons?
09:13:55 <peter1138> I'm not sure it would be useful though :)
09:26:21 <locosage> where do you want to use them?
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12:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the economy window where it shows which cargo goes where. or the fund industry window, would probably be obvious choices
12:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe even at a station you could list nearby industries
12:07:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (which might raise the problem again that collecting and delivering cargo for an industry is asymmetric)
13:05:03 <talltyler> Psst #11253 needs another reviewer to look it over and hit approve, ideally before it needs rebasing again 🙂
13:26:13 <peter1138> Hmm, widget consistency: some places we have buttons to decrement or increment a value. But some use up-down arrows, and some use left-right arrows...
13:28:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i think original was up/down
13:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but i think those might be very small in a text
13:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> left/right can be more easily scaled up
13:29:24 <peter1138> No, original is left/right, and indeed was actually < and > characters.
13:29:36 <peter1138> But at some point we changed it to the filled arrows as used on scrollbars.
13:29:59 <peter1138> Although I think we created them too, I don't think the original game had horizontall scrollbars.
13:30:50 <peter1138> The scenario editor uses up/down buttons though.
13:31:00 <peter1138> (In the rather prominent date selector)
13:31:08 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe there was also a TTO/TTD difference?
13:32:41 <talltyler> I would support a change to be consistent across the game (and with TTD), even if that means breaking Workflows™
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14:32:01 <peter1138> The difference between NWidgetBase and NWidgetResizeBase is slightly contrived -- the former contains all the fill/resize asttributes, but the accessors are only provided by the latter.
14:32:35 <peter1138> So... widgets that derive from NWidgetBase can still be resized, but you have no control over it.
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16:26:32 <yesbad> so I should replace it to that?
16:26:40 <yesbad> Just wondering if that emscripten one is different from that
16:26:54 <merni> I don't know either, just suggesting :p
16:33:09 <_glx_> you should use master version, we changed stuff in this area
16:33:35 <yesbad> _glx_: Aight, thank you... I'll go try that
16:35:59 <_glx_> bootstrapping is now supported, so the baseset is automatically downloaded on first start
16:36:08 <yesbad> _glx_: ah sounds great
16:37:31 <yesbad> _glx_: btw as you seem to be aware, how would one get this thing working with MP?
16:44:23 <yesbad> _glx_: how does one make one "websocket supported"?
16:46:10 <_glx_> our main use of emscripten version is PR preview
16:48:15 <peter1138> Oh, didn't occur to me that it can't connect to normal servers.
16:54:40 <_glx_> yeah we use a websocket proxy so bananas works
16:56:01 <_glx_> but nothing is done for MP
17:02:10 <yesbad> yeah if someone figures out how to make a server lmk 👍
17:02:17 <yesbad> i'll try to figure something out..
17:04:40 <talltyler> Huh, I've got timetable start dates using absolute ticks, but now vehicles don't get late...their timetable changes as soon as they reach the first station. I seem to have broken something else quite badly and have no idea how. 😄
17:05:03 <talltyler> A problem for another time 🙂
17:05:16 <peter1138> "It's completely broken, let's ship it"? :D
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17:22:18 <peter1138> Or not... I wonder how long I've been set to Invisible on Discord... :p
17:22:44 <andythenorth> You are invisible
17:22:58 <peter1138> o/~ You treat me like I'm invisible
17:24:07 <peter1138> Alison Moyet for you youngsters.
18:13:31 <peter1138> Such chicken & egg.
18:22:37 <peter1138> Widget layouts defined in external files that I can reload on the fly...
18:31:15 <simo333> Jump in just to say that R5 7600X and RTX4090 struggles to run OpenTTD on zoomed out 128*128 map. 5-8 FPS 🤣
18:31:57 <peter1138> Jump in to say that OpenTTD doesn't run on your graphics card, it runs on your CPU.
18:32:16 <simo333> 10% load, not a single core fully loaded either
18:32:44 <simo333> Unacceptable optimisation! /s
18:33:28 <simo333> Jokes aside, made a stress test to see if all those callback used in Locos of xUSSR matters.
18:34:12 <simo333> Answer seems to be no. But using overlaying sprites for wagons - does.
18:34:24 <_jgr_> Having a fancy graphics card won't make any difference at all
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18:34:41 <simo333> Maybe it's time to change that?
18:35:43 <simo333> More screenshots there
18:38:07 <truebrain> yesbad: just setup any Websocket -> TCP proxy; there are many different ones
18:38:26 <simo333> Pretty sure limitations that bottelnecked there were on game-engine.
18:38:26 <simo333> 16000 vehicles (locos/wagons) in both tests, same map.
18:38:26 <simo333> Wagons use 3x sprites overlayed one atop another (base/cargo/mask).
18:38:26 <simo333> Locos uses callbacks for consist, orientation and others... George may tell more.
18:39:59 <_jgr_> My branch ought to be a somewhat faster in this case, but in general the fully zoomed out rendered view is not going to perform well when there's a lot of things on the screen
18:40:43 <simo333> _jgr_: Want me to try it out?
18:41:06 <yesbad> truebrain: Any you'd like to suggest?
18:44:58 <goddess_ishtar> Is any sort of actual gameplay going to walk afoul of a 16,000 vehicle limit?
18:45:26 <truebrain> yesbad: Any will do. No preference on our side.
18:45:28 <goddess_ishtar> The only thing I can think of would be like, massive long-running 4k*4k multiplayer maps
18:45:35 <yesbad> truebrain: Aight thank you 👍
18:47:43 <simo333> goddess_ishtar: that's not 16000 vehicle, but objects to move and calculate. In one test there 128 64-tile long trains and in another 1600 6.4-tile trains.
18:48:18 <simo333> having 128 super-long trains isn't something to be impossible to have
18:50:32 <simo333> I'll make myself out! Would not distract you any more with silly stuff.
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19:01:23 <peter1138> Wagons are still counted a vehicles, they still have to be moved and still have to be drawn.
19:12:10 <goddess_ishtar> simo333: The default maximum train length is like, seven
19:17:08 <simo333> goddess_ishtar: Default was 5, it was increased to 7 later!)
19:32:22 <goddess_ishtar> honestly I've been thinking of turning that setting up and running longer trains
19:32:45 <goddess_ishtar> right now 7 tiles is so short it's not really worth it to do things like run two locomotives
19:33:08 <locosage> I run triple locos with tl7 at some point
19:33:12 <locosage> acceleration is important
19:34:06 <_jgr_> That feels a little overkill
19:34:45 <locosage> it was tropic, locos there not great iirc
19:34:53 <goddess_ishtar> well I run multiple units in two or three locomotive consists but those don't count :p
19:35:35 <goddess_ishtar> locosage: this is part of what I want to do with my modding, Tropic and Arctic sharing a loco list bothers me so much
19:35:36 <_jgr_> The only time I've use 3 locomotives was for 18 tile freight, and it needed to go uphill
19:36:05 <goddess_ishtar> wanted to look at trains in the West Indies, because it's cool and hasn't really been done before
19:36:32 <goddess_ishtar> maybe some in South America too because it's close and we probably need more train variety
19:50:25 <_zephyris> Aarg, the maddening inconsistency
19:51:08 <goddess_ishtar> I still have no idea what the animated colours marked "block cycle" on the palette are used for
19:54:09 <_jgr_> It's for the toyland "fizzy drinks" industry
19:54:21 <goddess_ishtar> that makes sense
19:54:21 <_jgr_> So mostly useless really
19:54:36 <goddess_ishtar> xarick: you sure you're in the right channel mate
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20:02:59 <andythenorth> goddess_ishtar: I wanted to make SARS but _pruple wouldn’t play 🙂
20:03:39 <goddess_ishtar> rather unfortunate acronym
20:08:40 <goddess_ishtar> my old desktop has been getting a little old, so I'm probably going to shop around for parts soon too
20:09:04 <goddess_ishtar> it's been so long since I've built a PC I've forgotten what's worth getting :p
20:11:12 <LordAro> andythenorth: no manufacturing bioweapons pls
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20:18:46 <Eddi|zuHause> can you shop around for me, too?
20:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i've been intending to get a new PC for like 5 years now
20:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not really getting any closer
20:19:41 <goddess_ishtar> it's settled then, we'll all wire your our PC budgets :p
20:22:46 <andythenorth> My kids want gaming PCs
20:23:00 <andythenorth> I know nothing about PC shopping
20:23:50 <goddess_ishtar> if they're old enough, building it together could be a fun bonding thing maybe
20:26:16 <belajalilija> yeah building them might be cheaper too
20:26:31 <belajalilija> you could also get a case that is bigger and less flashy to leave room for upgrades
20:26:53 <belajalilija> if you build it yourself you can also upgrade it yourself too
20:27:02 <goddess_ishtar> Building a computer is almost always going to be cheaper than buting prebuilt, especially at the higher end of specs
20:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you just have to avoid like 3 "congratulations, your PC is dead now" pitfalls
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20:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe have someone check that the parts actually work together
20:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> like you don't try to put an intel processor on an amd board
20:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> or DDR5 ram on a DDR4 board
20:33:15 <andythenorth> goddess_ishtar: In my case this would be the polar opposite of happy family experience 🙂
20:33:41 <andythenorth> I absolutely loathe the idea of building a PC 🙂
20:36:06 <goddess_ishtar> the GPU market has been insane for a while
20:36:18 <goddess_ishtar> crypto miners and silicon shortages
20:36:37 <goddess_ishtar> and Nvidia being dickish
20:36:44 <simo333> xarick: Just tested, 7600X is not enough for extreme situations... Otherwise follow steam recommended settings.
20:37:11 <simo333> May test 5900X in weekend
20:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i bought my last graphics card just before a big price explosion
20:37:49 <andythenorth> What is the best CPU for OpenTTD currently?
20:38:17 <goddess_ishtar> the game's singlethreaded, right?
20:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause> don't get blinded by "number of cores"
20:38:31 <andythenorth> Mine used to be pretty good
20:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> raw clock speed is what the game wants
20:38:39 <goddess_ishtar> Intel tends to have better per-core performance than AMD
20:38:56 <andythenorth> But it took about 8 hours for my CPU to generate a large map
20:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably depends on things like industry placement checks
20:39:45 <michi_cc[d]> High clock rate definitely. Potentially also the AMD X3D CPUs as games generally benefit from the larger caches.
20:39:59 <andythenorth> It only had to place about 20k industries
20:40:14 <andythenorth> It was the town road building that really killed it
20:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but if it runs out of space at 15k, the last 5k take foreeeeeever
20:41:01 <andythenorth> Can’t remember the settings, but it was the max map size in jgrpp
20:41:14 <michi_cc[d]> I don't have anything to to actually compare with, but my 5800X3D feels fast for OTTD (and manages Wentburn at > 1x speed).
20:42:01 <andythenorth> Maybe I should buy an M3
20:42:10 <simo333> andythenorth: hm... May try to get it now and see how slow it is.
20:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> a BMW M3 probably can run OpenTTD :p
20:43:02 <peter1138> Damn, my i7-8700K doesn't manage that :(
20:44:30 <peter1138> Just turn up the route caching I suppose :D
20:45:25 <simo333> went for 16k*16k map with max roughness mountains, max river, towns and industry
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20:46:00 <simo333> xarick: where to find it?
20:46:57 <simo333> 3 minutes in generation, 37% so far
20:47:26 <simo333> I hope I didn't forget to turn off trees...
20:49:44 <simo333> 6 minutes in, 50% of industries placed...
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20:52:15 <simo333> xarick: found it, but link to save seems to be broken for me.
20:55:12 <simo333> and if I copypaste what's there into savefile latest JGR says "it's made in newer version of OpenTTD"...
20:59:30 <michi_cc[d]> 5800X3D, 13.4 release exe, just about manages it:
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21:00:57 <peter1138> So, uh, when did we mess that up? :p
21:01:39 <_glx_> hmm nightly on seem asserts on me
21:01:44 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138[d]: what am I looking at?
21:02:40 <peter1138> The Waiting: section.
21:02:54 <peter1138> _glx_, "works for me" so probably needs more info.
21:03:14 <simo333> michi_cc[d]: worked, thanks!
21:03:35 <simo333> well, map generated just shy of 20 minutes
21:03:38 <peter1138> Ah, okay, no uniscribe here :)
21:04:26 <peter1138> goddess_ishtar, in OpenTTD, the text is on the left and the icons are right aligned.
21:04:55 <goddess_ishtar> perfectly-designed UI here
21:06:12 <simo333> lol, empty 16k map resulted in save more than 300 mb
21:06:46 <peter1138> It's not empty though, is it...
21:07:06 <michi_cc[d]> Well, TTD didn't have any source/via/destination and whatever views though. They seem to be a bit awkward to me with right alignment.
21:07:09 <simo333> I mean nothing built there
21:07:23 <michi_cc[d]> Disable tree generation 🙂
21:08:31 <simo333> michi_cc[d]: comparable, but JGR...
21:09:33 <simo333> slighly worse in 13.4
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21:11:15 <peter1138> You need to give it 10-15 seconds or so for the route caches to populate
21:11:24 <peter1138> Otherwise you are not comparing like-for-like.
21:15:11 <simo333> peter1138: run it simultaneously for few minutes...
21:16:12 <simo333> vanilla definetly laggs behind
21:16:35 <simo333> xarick: this is 7600X
21:23:02 <_jgr_> For road vehicles a large part is because the path cache is 2x as long in my branch
21:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> trees absolutely kill savegame compression
21:26:34 <peter1138> I'm feeling I should perhaps to more than one at a time :p
21:28:25 <peter1138> _glx_, check that max_width is not 0.
21:28:49 <_glx_> don't have the info in the dump
21:29:36 <_glx_> ha it's calling GetStringHeight() with maxw=0
21:30:11 <peter1138> Yup, this is something I found earlier, but with some changes that are in a random branch of mine.
21:32:09 <peter1138> Although... huh, it is.
21:32:46 <peter1138> Let me add that assert and test :/
21:33:06 <_glx_> smallest size for intro window is 0,0
21:33:18 <peter1138> Yeah. For some reason the icu layouter doesn't fail in this particular case, but it did for another case.
21:33:36 <peter1138> It's not the window, it's faulty size determining logic.
21:34:23 <_glx_> yeah it's a widget, not the window itself, but can't find which one in the dump
21:34:33 <peter1138> It's okay, I know which.
21:37:06 <peter1138> UpdateWidgetSize() could do with being a 2-pass process.
21:38:47 <peter1138> Hmm, how did I do this for the Game Options window...
21:39:10 <peter1138> My mumbling about chickens and eggs earlier was about this. But I didn't realised I'd merged it. Oops.
21:40:42 <_glx_> ah the string seems to be STR_INTRO_TRANSLATION
21:42:02 <_glx_> so most likely WID_SGI_TRANSLATION
21:42:28 <peter1138> Yes, it's the warning messages which no longer have a default width provided.
21:43:20 <_glx_> yeah it's using current window width, which is still 0 because we are in the size determination
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21:44:29 <_glx_> ah no it's a reference, anyway it's wrong
21:45:14 <_glx_> well a pointer actually
21:46:02 <yesbad> michi_cc[d]: That's some nasty save
21:47:05 <_pruple> andythenorth: need templates for sunshine scale sprites? 🙂
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21:56:50 * peter1138 checks with zBase too.
21:57:06 <peter1138> 273 MiB of wasted bandwidt :p
21:59:12 <_glx_> get aBase to waste a little more 🙂
22:00:11 <peter1138> Yeah, the way I did it in Game Options works, but this is a bit sucky in general :(
22:00:54 <peter1138> Do I need to bother to maintain the "max 3 lines" logic...
22:03:54 <goddess_ishtar> aBase is basically identically except UI right
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22:18:14 <goddess_ishtar> wow UKRS and NARS are intense
22:19:09 <goddess_ishtar> there is an extremely complicated set of rules determining whether you are required to place a caboose on your trains
22:19:45 <_glx_> and it's less clear than dbset MORE wagons
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22:24:40 <_pruple> goddess_ishtar: realism (tm) - it's what the people want, right?
22:25:00 <_glx_> UKRS running sounds were nice
22:27:29 <goddess_ishtar> from a game design perspective, I think it's nicer to give people bonii for doing things you want instead of huge lists of restrictions
22:28:52 <_jgr_> A lot of rail-fans are very keen on technical pedantry
22:29:31 <goddess_ishtar> what I was thinking of doing instead were cabooses/brake vans that improved the tractive effort of the attached locos
22:29:53 <goddess_ishtar> which should have much the same effect of encouraging their use on long and heavy trains, but significantly less complicated
22:32:11 <_pruple> Why would adding a caboose increase the tractive effort of the locomotive? And is an increase in tractive effort something the average player would or should notice or care about?
22:32:11 <_pruple> I think that the "realism" of cabooses is sufficiently non-intuitive and abstract from OpenTTD game mechanics that giving them any kind of effect is a BAD FEATURE.
22:33:26 <goddess_ishtar> it's not the *cause* I'm really worried about
22:33:29 <goddess_ishtar> it's the *effect*
22:34:05 <goddess_ishtar> if you have suggestions I'm glad to hear them, I'm not quite experienced at this
22:35:42 <_pruple> my suggestion is have cabooses which do nothing but look pretty, and don't worry about how or if players use them 🙂
22:35:45 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: I was trying to think of an elegant abstraction for "better braking" or "better grip"
22:36:07 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: Iron Horse does that, and I don't really like it
22:36:12 <goddess_ishtar> I mean, it's fine
22:36:27 <goddess_ishtar> just bothers me from a "why is this here if it does nothing" perspective
22:36:51 <goddess_ishtar> I know it's pretty, but I'd rather it had an effect, no matter how nominal
22:38:24 <_pruple> btw my experience with UKRS and NARS is that the requirement for a caboose annoyed most players, and once they'd figured out that they needed to build one, they invariably built them first. So their trains tended to be <loco> <caboose> <the rest of the train>
22:39:30 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: yeah I think it's silly
22:39:30 <_pruple> for players who care, "because it looks realistic" will be enough incentive to build cabooses
22:39:56 <peter1138> That is the correct solution.
22:40:00 <_pruple> for players who don't care, any mechanic will be ignored or resented
22:40:03 <peter1138> Have it there for looks.
22:40:48 <goddess_ishtar> I guess I just like the idea of the caboose actually doing something on my train
22:40:54 <goddess_ishtar> instead of it just sitting there
22:41:34 <peter1138> It adds to braking force? :D
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22:41:54 <_pruple> it complies with regulations to have a manned caboose at the rear of the train, clearly 🙂
22:42:10 <_pruple> you can use them as barrier wagons as well, I usually put one front-and-back on things like oil trains 😉
22:42:31 <goddess_ishtar> peter1138: Is that even a thing in OpenTTD?
22:42:34 <peter1138> goddess_ishtar, nope.
22:42:46 <goddess_ishtar> which is why I thought of TE
22:42:56 <goddess_ishtar> eh, if it's a bad idea I won't do it
22:43:52 <_pruple> do it if you want to... that is the prerogative of the grf developer 🙂
22:44:14 <_pruple> all I'm saying is, in my experience, it won't change how anyone else plays the game or builds their trains.
22:44:56 <goddess_ishtar> _pruple: sure, but the grf developer is beholden to the grf player
22:45:10 <goddess_ishtar> No use implementing something everyone hates
22:47:46 <emperorjake> In JP+ Engines, the brake vans increase the speed limit of slower freight wagons
22:48:09 <emperorjake> That way they give a bonus without being mandatory
22:53:59 <goddess_ishtar> it doesn't really matter either way, does it?
22:54:12 <goddess_ishtar> emperorjake: I guess that's an option
22:56:34 <goddess_ishtar> is there a limit to GRF options?
22:57:20 <goddess_ishtar> honestly considering just making every single controversial choice toggleable so that people can't get mad at me :p
22:58:33 <goddess_ishtar> although now that I think of it, that may also be bad
22:58:41 <peter1138> But each is 32 bits so you can overload them too.
22:58:49 <goddess_ishtar> because it would lead to directionless design-by-committee
22:59:00 <peter1138> 4096 bits of toggles ;)
22:59:19 <peter1138> I don't think the UI understands treating different bits as different options though.
23:01:14 <goddess_ishtar> NARS has this awful thing where you specify bitmasks with integers
23:01:21 <goddess_ishtar> which just looks like a *total pain*
23:03:38 <goddess_ishtar> goddess_ishtar: ...literally any design choice I make would open me to criticism by *someone* because humans are Just Like That™
23:04:32 <peter1138> Argh, broken nail :/
23:05:31 <peter1138> My Pi is still running TVHeadEnd with nothing attached, heh.
23:08:26 <Rubidium> goddess_ishtar: how would it handle those that complain that there are too many options?
23:08:50 <goddess_ishtar> yeah that's the issue
23:09:03 <goddess_ishtar> pleasing everyone is literally impossible
23:09:08 <_pruple> goddess_ishtar: that's because, like UKRS, it's an ancient GRF which predates newGRF support in OpenTTD, even.
23:09:17 <goddess_ishtar> how do people ever make anything? 🙃
23:10:38 <_pruple> my advice is make the grf you want to make; give people choices when those choices are obvious and easy to implement; and ultimately, anyone who still has complaints has the option of not using your grf at all.
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23:18:23 <peter1138> Actually I think option sets is also a DHCP thing. Full circle.
23:18:56 <simo333> _pruple: Sometimes I think we gave too much of realism in xUSSRset and pushed it with "good features" that noone actually plays with it. 🤣
23:20:41 <_pruple> so... 20231120-master-g9822fa6584 crashing on launch is known, right? 🙂 or is it just me?
23:21:09 <peter1138> Definitely just you.
23:21:25 <peter1138> I definitely didn't just merge a set of changes to fix it.
23:21:54 <_pruple> peter1138: this is clearly true
23:22:03 <_glx_> /me reported it a little earlier 😉
23:22:53 * _glx_ reported it a little earlier
23:23:12 <goddess_ishtar> you cannot hide it
23:23:23 <simo333> But he can cross it out
23:23:46 <simo333> ~~*reported it a little earlier*~~
23:23:54 <goddess_ishtar> edits aren't mirrored on IRC anyway
23:24:37 <_glx_> yeah discord bots stealing native /me are annoying
23:25:16 <goddess_ishtar> /me just italizices the whole message anyway
23:25:20 <goddess_ishtar> no special formatting
23:25:48 <_glx_> but I'm used to irc /me
23:25:49 <_pruple> bring back the first person pronoun, /me says.
23:31:03 <peter1138> Oh shit, Archviles :(
continue to next day ⏵
