IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-09-14
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06:25:12 <andythenorth> definitely want build-while-paused for IRL
06:25:27 <andythenorth> woke up at 04.50
06:25:40 <andythenorth> went to sleep at midnight 😛
06:29:35 <andythenorth> such articulated truck 🙂
06:29:57 <andythenorth> can I fake that so it's a single vehicle, checking turning angle and using pre-composed 'turn' sprites?
06:43:33 <andythenorth> eliminates all this boring balancing crap about articulated RVs
06:43:52 <andythenorth> just make them all non-articulated, but fake articulated so players don't keep asking for them
06:44:02 <andythenorth> might not work for long trucks 😛
06:45:21 <andythenorth> ha, maybe I just figure out what the stupid balance things are supposed to be, and do grf parameters 😄
06:46:04 <andythenorth> there is precedent 😄
06:46:25 <peter1139> "It's unbalanced" sounds like you've been reading Reddit again.
06:47:20 <andythenorth> TL;DR articulated vehicles can only use 1/3 of the roadstops, so they should get something to make them more effective
06:48:12 <andythenorth> but non-articulated trucks have lower capacity (according to RL), so they should get something to make them more effective
06:48:24 <andythenorth> so parameter for non-articulated truck capacity
06:48:34 <locosage> You probably still need articulation to detect turns
06:48:58 <andythenorth> 4 out of 6 stop types can't be used
06:49:30 <andythenorth> and the drive-in stop is superior because it has more placement options (4) and more bays (3)
06:49:33 <peter1139> That is a ridiculous reason to say they are unbalanced.
06:49:52 <peter1139> What are these stupid conditions you are making up... :/
06:50:07 <peter1139> Drive-in stops only have 2 bays.
06:50:17 <andythenorth> there are 3 drawn
06:50:46 <peter1139> Two bays and the exit road.
06:51:02 <andythenorth> we have roadstop grfs now?
06:51:06 <andythenorth> I might redraw them
06:51:10 <locosage> Though maybe you can detect turns based on subtile coordinates. But mapping them will be quite a pita
06:51:27 <andythenorth> I suspect that if drive-in roadstops looked bad and drive-through roadstops looked cool
06:51:36 <andythenorth> this silly issue would disappear
06:52:01 <andythenorth> also if drive-through came first in the build menu
06:53:06 <andythenorth> stealth newgrf additions
06:54:39 <andythenorth> ok so merged, but don't think it's in a 13.x release, so 14.x?
06:54:44 * andythenorth updating newgrf spec
07:01:12 <LordAro> that's a very busy evening you all had
07:01:38 <peter1139> I didn't even try to catch up.
07:04:44 <peter1139> Hmm, going to need lights tonight. Do I take the winter bike and not care about trying to be fast...
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07:18:48 <andythenorth> ok this roadstop stuff 🙂
07:19:08 <andythenorth> docs are all written already by jgr
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07:44:49 <andythenorth> roadstops don't have to be in the roadtypes grf, I assume?
07:44:57 <andythenorth> I mean for road surfaces and stuff
07:45:18 <andythenorth> "CHIPS, roadstop edition"
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07:54:34 <truebrain> that moment you rebase our oldest PR, and it has so many conflitcs ... maybe I am faster in just looking at the diff and typing it in again 😛
07:56:26 <peter1139> truebrain, happens.
07:56:28 <andythenorth> GPT loves typing
07:57:14 <peter1139> It needs to compile and work though.
07:59:47 <truebrain> no worries, I help you get your open-PR count down 🙂
08:03:11 <ahyangyi> andythenorth: Most train stations don't come with railtype newGRFs either 😛
08:03:24 <truebrain> don't use logic on andy
08:04:19 <andythenorth> we'll see when I make the grf
08:04:27 <andythenorth> roadtypes seemed to be needed for eye candy decor stuff
08:04:54 <andythenorth> hey, can all those decor roadtypes be replaced by road waypoints?
08:07:04 <peter1139> I thought the "plan" was just make everything an object...
08:07:24 <andythenorth> I don't know if that's a plan, or me throwing mud at walls to see what sticks
08:07:41 <ahyangyi> I just want longer-looking road stations to accomodate for those road trains
08:07:48 <andythenorth> I mean I thought 3CC was a good idea for a while
08:09:26 <peter1139> ahyangyi, that can be done with NewGRF road stops.
08:09:27 <ahyangyi> I want black as a selectable company color
08:09:51 <peter1139> RGBCC allows that :D
08:10:07 <truebrain> I want to get paid for developing on OpenTTD
08:10:16 <andythenorth> we could sell something
08:10:18 <truebrain> (let's see if they have an answer to that!)
08:10:40 <andythenorth> sell the ability to have more roadtypes 😛
08:11:58 <ahyangyi> to everywhere in the world
08:12:01 <ahyangyi> and become a transport tycoon™
08:14:47 <osswix> andythenorth: I'd pay for a game that's kinda like almost exactly openttd but a bit more free in roads and decorating.
08:15:15 <truebrain> well, we do allow for donations
08:15:21 <truebrain> as you are very free in roads and decorating the game 😛
08:16:01 <osswix> Yes. But more free. Like functional diagonals and curves and more stackable objects n stuff.
08:16:22 <truebrain> "more free" is something that will never be reached, so basically you said: I will never pay
08:16:25 <truebrain> fine fine, be like that 😛
08:18:35 <osswix> Rework a new new game with that ability but also the ability to use newgrf files and I'll pay 😹
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08:40:38 <truebrain> right, boilerplate for utilization done .. now for the actual accounting .. hmm .. let's see ...
08:49:28 <truebrain> we don't have a storage place for only the first vehicle in a chain, right? They all get the storage either way?
08:55:14 <peter1139> Yes, someone was working on something to address that.
08:55:21 <peter1139> </vague handwaving>
08:55:30 <truebrain> too many things in the queue 😛
08:56:15 <truebrain> there is a function `BeginLoading`, and however I look at it, I can only see it unloads a vehicle
08:56:42 <peter1139> Although when I saw the amount of memory used up purely for front-of-chain stuff, I have also wondered...
08:57:41 <peter1139> My interface returns a Task, but the implementation does not need to await. I should not `await Task.Delay(0)`, should I...
08:59:37 <peter1139> I refactorer it so that I could have one Task.FromResult() at the end, instead of lots spread out.
09:00:33 <truebrain> so CallVehicleTicks calls LoadUnloadStation on every station every time
09:00:37 <truebrain> I did not see that coming
09:01:21 <truebrain> `PrepareUnload` is actually `PrepareLoadAndUnload` .. lol
09:01:54 <truebrain> which kinda makes sense .. when a vehicle arrives in a station, it always first unloads
09:01:56 <truebrain> then starts to load
09:02:01 <truebrain> but the code for this isn't all that clear
09:15:39 <alfagamma7> Can somebody please send me templates for station sprites?
09:32:30 <truebrain> hmm .. I made it myself very difficult by going for another type of vehicle utilization .. as in, I need to make a new GUI, and I am not looking forward to it 😛
09:36:00 <truebrain> hmm, can `fmt::` print the name of an enum ..
09:42:49 <truebrain> I can track what a vehicle is doing now 😄
09:43:44 <truebrain> I see I do miss a transition when a vehicle leaves a depot again after servicing 🙂
09:49:44 <peter1139> Hmm, maybe I should install Chromium to see if Teams works better>
09:50:50 <truebrain> `cargo_payment` only exists on the front vehicle
09:51:50 <dwfreed> peter1139: probably would, or you could install Edge :D
09:53:01 <peter1139> Oh god no, there actually is an Edge for Linux :(
09:53:38 <dwfreed> this is not surprising
09:53:51 <dwfreed> Edge is just chromium + MS stuff
09:59:07 <peter1139> Urgh, think I need a new webcam. Cable is dodgy on my C920.
09:59:36 <dwfreed> this is why cables need to be replaceable
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11:04:57 <peter1139> Such chicken & egg.
11:17:06 <truebrain> funny, `VehicleServiceInDepot` is only called just before a vehicle exits a depot
11:17:10 <truebrain> makes sense, but feels odd 😄
11:17:32 <peter1139> Getting stuck into code complications because I refuse to add special cases like "supplier X needs this sometimes"
11:22:49 <truebrain> so ... in drive-throughs, RVs can get into each other while loading/unloading
11:23:20 <truebrain> even breaks the loading indicators
11:24:54 <peter1139> Looks like 3-bays-andy :p
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11:27:59 <truebrain> so many weird things when you are actually looking into vehicle movement .. an RV can enter a depot multiple times in a row
11:28:03 <truebrain> because .. reasons?
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11:35:10 <peter1139> Depot tile with no connected road?
11:35:29 <truebrain> 2 busses entering the same depot one after the other causes some weird logic, and the same bus enters the depot several times
11:38:11 <truebrain> but yeah, never noticed how broken drive-throughs actually are if you put more busses on the line than it can handle
11:38:43 <peter1139> They've always queued for me, so I don't know.
11:38:57 <truebrain> they do, till the first drives off
11:39:07 <truebrain> after that, things start to act weird
11:39:11 <truebrain> I think it has to do with takeover
11:39:31 <truebrain> so sometimes it changes from 2 loading vehicles to 3!
11:39:52 <truebrain> let me see if the problem exists in 13.4 ..
11:41:31 <truebrain> yeah, okay: so the first loads fine, and leaves
11:41:42 <truebrain> the 2nd stays at the second slot .. the 3rd overtakes the 2nd and starts loading at the first slot
11:41:46 <truebrain> the 2nd is done loading, and wants to leave
11:41:52 <truebrain> now the 4th overtakes and takes the first slot too
11:42:13 <truebrain> just build a drive-through bus-stop, buy a bus, set to full load, clone it 4 times, and enjoy
11:44:39 <_glx_> Full load in drive-through is not a good idea
11:44:58 <talltyler> I think it would be fine to make this the default behavior, the tunneling is pretty odd
11:45:48 <truebrain> that they can tunnel through each other is one thing
11:45:52 <truebrain> but that they can do it to get to a loading bay
11:46:15 <truebrain> but yeah, you need to do it with a station that doesn't get enough passengers, otherwise the timeout doesn't trigger
11:47:32 <peter1139> _glx_, why is that? Other than blocking the road it should be fine.
11:48:01 <peter1139> Most of my stations end up with the opposite issue, 1,000s of passengers waiting.
11:48:02 <truebrain> talltyler: the tunneling happens for a reason, as it keeps things going. So not sure "it would be fine" is true 🙂
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11:48:34 <talltyler> It would be fine for people who know how to prevent it 😛
11:48:47 <talltyler> You are probably right:)
11:48:55 <peter1139> The weird thing with that is that road stops are meant to have reserved slots, so it shouldn't be possible to load/unload if you don't have a reservation...
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11:49:24 <truebrain> `dbg: [misc] 13: blocked (1480 ticks)
11:49:24 <truebrain> dbg: [misc] 13: moving (74 ticks)`
11:49:36 <truebrain> indeed it is at exactly 1480 ticks they "unblock" themself
11:49:47 <peter1139> Maybe those are only used for pathfinding, not actually loading.
11:50:06 <truebrain> seems so; I am looking at 5 vehicles on the same loading bay now 😛
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11:51:00 <peter1139> Also, I'm sure long ago "quantum tunnelling" was an option anyway.
11:51:20 <peter1139> (And was the source of the name too)
11:51:43 <peter1139> I'm probably imagining that though.
11:52:07 <truebrain> lol, "unloading" is considered a "blocked" state .. the controller tries to move the RV forward
11:52:15 <truebrain> the RV code is so incredibly weird
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11:53:52 <LordAro> peter1139: was it an option, or is it just mentioned in known issues?
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12:00:15 <peter1139> Pretty sure it was an option.
12:01:57 <peter1139> bool roadveh_queue; ///< buggy road vehicle queueing
12:02:28 <peter1139> But that isn't used anywhere much.
12:05:42 <peter1139> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ROAD_VEHICLE_QUEUEING :{LTBLUE}Road vehicle queueing (with quantum effects): {ORANGE}{STRING1}
12:05:45 <peter1139> That is the setting...
12:06:19 <truebrain> roadveh_queue is only for the PF
12:10:12 <truebrain> anyway, I don't mind the quantum effects; I just did not expect that to work to bypass loading bays 🙂
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12:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i never really understood what that setting changed
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12:16:32 <truebrain> don't mind the styling ofc, but I am getting stats that seem to be correct 🙂
12:16:58 <truebrain> not the most efficient bus thi sis
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12:21:43 <truebrain> a normal bus, doing normal things (and a bit better styling)
12:23:06 <truebrain> do we have some glue so I can iterate an enum?
12:27:38 <truebrain> that ..... is a new way of dealing with weird PRs 😛
12:37:06 <truebrain> right, main issue with utilization is: what are you measuring .. the vehicle, or the line it is operating
12:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> why does that read like something ChatGPT would write?
12:38:45 <truebrain> for example, is an empty bus that runs in circles a good utilized bus or not?
12:40:31 <alfagamma7> truebrain: The latter
12:40:35 <truebrain> lol; there is no correct answer here 🙂
12:40:43 <truebrain> but I am happy to see you state your opinion as a fact 😉
12:41:39 <truebrain> hmm, reminds me of the discussion we had months (years?) ago whether we should add "line management" to the game
12:42:38 <truebrain> ofc it got Zorg'd, but that is not the point
12:47:49 <peter1139> Eddi|zuHause, well :-)
12:48:46 <alfagamma7> I should join the irc
12:48:48 <peter1139> Yes, line management would be nice. Set it up the orders and timetable in advance, then just add vehicles to it.
12:49:10 <truebrain> it is also kinda the reason, in my opinion, that timetable is faulty in its current state
12:49:17 <truebrain> it is based per vehicle, or group of vehicle, or something vague
12:49:28 <truebrain> the line between "vehicle" and "line" is just weird
12:58:41 <truebrain> well, at least that was a fun intermezzo
13:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i really like the line-based system in transport fever
13:14:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but some people are horribly confused by that
13:14:50 <truebrain> it is one of those things that makes you wonder: should it be done in OpenTTD, or would that just be a completely new game?
13:15:49 <_glx_> it would be a generalisation of shared orders
13:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, lines are basically reworked shared orders
13:17:15 <truebrain> right, let's see if 3.11 actually works .. or that things break in unexpected ways 😄
13:19:31 <truebrain> okay, preview is working as expected .. all functionalities seem to work .. fingers crossed?
13:20:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the most intuitive way to make lines is to both allow making a line without vehicles, and making a vehicle first and create a line on the fly
13:21:05 <_glx_> we already have half of it 🙂
13:22:31 <peter1139> Drag-and-drop moving vehicles between lines would be a much easier method to change shared ordered...
13:25:26 <truebrain> having an overview of your lines and if you need to add vehicles / remove vehicles would also be lovely
13:25:38 <truebrain> so many things can be solved ! Now to find someone to do it .... 😛
13:27:23 <truebrain> in the meantime, still looking for a reviewer for ^^ 🙂
13:27:44 <peter1139> Then you wonder if, instead of creating a separate lines system, they should be part of groups -- there's a UI already, a hierarchy already, etc, etc...
13:29:05 <peter1139> Hmm, 19°C tonight, probably a bit too warm to wear the hi-viz gillet.
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15:03:12 <alfagamma7> Just saying, seems like setup.py in nml is outdated
15:03:26 <alfagamma7> it's showing some errors
15:04:07 <alfagamma7> Should I send the logged messages?
15:05:35 <alfagamma7> Or open an issue on openttd/nml?
15:06:26 <truebrain> or, fix it and make a Pull Request!
15:07:12 <alfagamma7> My skill set is limited at the moment
15:07:35 <alfagamma7> but eager to learn 😄
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15:12:17 <alfagamma7> Does anybody use emacs anymore?
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15:26:48 <LordAro> alfagamma7: an issue on openttd/nml is best placed
15:26:55 <LordAro> since no one actually answered you :p
15:33:42 <peter1139> Urgh, stop being tired :/
15:44:18 <peter1139> I was dozing off at my desk. Probably means I should go for a walk, but...
15:46:46 <alfagamma7> Managed to install nml ( an older version) thanks to some maintainer on aur
15:47:05 <alfagamma7> *Looks at maintainer's name*
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17:03:22 <LordAro> shame about both being run by the same provider
17:17:19 <_glx_> glx22viaGitHub: approving notification 3h after merge notification 🙂
17:26:29 <peter1139> Uh oh, 20% off Steam Deck 512GB...
17:52:39 <truebrain> No, it was you too. But you will catch up.
17:53:04 <truebrain> Like a slow turtle catching up 😛
17:54:47 <frosch123> maybe for 50 years of ottd
18:11:07 <frosch123> i always wonder in such cases: if a group of nerds boards such a train... are they thrown off, or are the waiters happy about having sane people for once
18:12:58 <truebrain> or do they just don't care, and it is an average day? 😄
18:35:45 <truebrain> right, time to see if I can make a little website that takes in a crash.dmp and crash.json.log, and poops out a usable backtrace
18:37:14 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:24:45 <truebrain> only 500 poind per person, I am sure not that many people will show up
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19:43:59 <blathijs> Anyone here on fosstodon that can send me an invite? peter1139 maybe?
19:51:31 <truebrain> think peter1139 is indeed the man to ask that; and I am sure he is on a bike ride atm 🙂
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20:06:26 <peter1139> I was, is it invite-pnly now? Hmm...
20:07:08 <peter1139> I'll be on the PC soon. :)
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20:28:12 <blindvt> I just reported a crash with some NewGRF as GH #11297
20:29:59 <blindvt> there seems to be one other segfault reported and that, too, seems to mention something FIRS, so i guess i should attempt to reproduce this with just that renegade firs that i currently have enabled to rule out the other ... content
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20:37:28 <frosch123> blindvt: did you upload a .gz as .zip?
20:40:42 <blindvt> frosch123: goddammit i did :-/
20:41:03 <frosch123> anyway, it crashes in an engine preview window, while rendering a gender list, so it's specific to the german translation you use, so probably noone else noticed
20:42:29 <frosch123> hmm, ottd does not even compile anymore for me :p
20:54:40 <frosch123> that crash.sav is spamming "dbg: [misc] Trying to read string parameter with wrong type"
21:05:50 <blindvt> frosch123: yep, i've seen this but i'm absolutely unamiliar with openttd so was not sure if that's a normal thing.
21:07:14 <blindvt> frosch123: (i barely dare to ask, but it's intriguing, so i'll dare ;) how do you see that it's a gender issue? I'm baffled 8-)
21:09:08 <frosch123> because strings.cpp:1044 is in the backtrace
21:09:32 <blindvt> frosch123: but seriously, i do have the debian package of openttd installed, but the thing that i compiled and installed to /opt/... hopefully is not confused by the other installation, is it? Or are "just" the i18n for german b0rked? WDYT?
21:09:33 <frosch123> the debug output is from STR_NEWS_INDUSTRY_CONSTRUCTION
21:09:49 <frosch123> it tries to read the gender from the industry name, but ends up at a town-name
21:10:44 <frosch123> blindvt: i think it's a real bug, not specific to your setup
21:11:04 <frosch123> just that noone uses languages with genders like german
21:11:34 <truebrain> the obvious fix is to remove genders
21:14:10 <frosch123> oof... ETooManyIndirections
21:14:22 * LordAro drinking a beer named Timberwolf
21:15:28 <blindvt> i guess i don't want to know why an industry has a gender. I mean, i did play around with freeciv, last time i was in the mood to play a game, and that has some minor reasons to raise an eyebrow here and there. Gendering industries is .. interesting. Gotta love locales ;)
21:16:08 <peter1139> Languages with genders are cool. Is it "le chat" or "la chat"...
21:16:33 <blindvt> la chatte, i think, but yea
21:18:16 <blindvt> i detest locales. everything but C is playin evil and bloat, even the elaborate, marketing driven "POSIX" locale.
21:18:49 <blindvt> don't get me started ;)
21:19:05 <peter1139> I don't think it was us, but I think you have :p
21:19:24 <FLHerne> Hello again everyone :-)
21:20:10 <blindvt> i did indeed :-) Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I'd better shut up now.
21:20:31 <FLHerne> visited the former Lion Salt Works today, it's pretty neat
21:20:32 <andythenorth> roadstops grf you say?
21:20:58 <andythenorth> flherne did it have a brine spring?
21:21:22 <FLHerne> I can't believe it lasted until 1982 with basically early-1800s process technology
21:21:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: 'wild' brine pumped up by a steam engine
21:23:01 <FLHerne> which they replaced in 1965 by an electric motor back-driving the auxiliary output shaft of the steam engine :p
21:23:49 <peter1139> Speaking of Timberwolf, there's a new video to watch...
21:23:53 <FLHerne> then in 1972 they partially automated one of the pans with a thing to scrape salt crystals out of it, rather than having dozens of shirtless men do it by hand
21:23:56 <frosch123> i think genders were broken by some refactoring
21:24:29 <peter1139> The switch to std::string?
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21:26:02 <FLHerne> the place has fared better than the Alliance Salt Works opposite, which is now a circular lake 200m across
21:26:21 <FLHerne> One day in 1928 the whole factory just fell into a big hole
21:26:48 <andythenorth> oof I must sleep
21:26:54 <andythenorth> 5 hours wasn't enough
21:26:54 <FLHerne> this would be an excellent FIRS mechanic and not at all infuriating
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21:27:30 <FLHerne> they mined all the salt out from under it, but left some pillars
21:27:40 <FLHerne> which unexpectedly dissolved
21:27:54 <FLHerne> I'm not sure why that was unexpected
21:28:40 <frosch123> i suspect #11050, but i barely know anything about this
21:29:11 <FLHerne> hm, the van is a lot tidier than on Wikipedia
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21:29:32 <frosch123> the gender is supposed to look at the substring parameter 0, but something already advanced the offset, so it checks parameter 1 instead
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21:34:38 <truebrain> so nobody that plays on nightlies use a gender-enabled language? 😄
21:35:36 <frosch123> well, blindvt seems the only one
21:36:42 <truebrain> So by my logic, their name has to be nobody!
21:39:34 <blindvt> it was an accident. I wanted to show your fabulous game to the kids and hence delved into LC_* madness resp. the in-program setting thereof.
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21:41:34 <blindvt> btw.. i don't see the green revenue-for-cargo bucks hints in that savegame. Is them vanishing a feature or did i somehow forgot to turn that on when i nuked my local config in my invain attempt to rules out local whatever when seeing aforementioned language imposed segfault ?
21:42:22 <frosch123> i think there is a setting to hide them
21:42:28 <frosch123> i would assume the default is "on"
21:44:37 <blindvt> i'm very sorry, notebook keyboard _and_ i apparently cannot type. s/to rules/to rule/
21:46:08 <talltyler> 3D modeling is too hard, can I just do this film using 2D sprite? 😛
21:47:33 <talltyler> Well played Cesar Vergara, the nose is so much more complex than it looks
21:47:45 <talltyler> (believe it or not, I'm doing this for my real job 🙂
21:48:04 <blindvt> frosch123: i miserably failed to find the setting, most likely because of the odd GUI language i had. Is it something akin "revenue", or "profit" or the like? I tried 4 or 5 terms in german, but that turned up nothing
21:50:09 <frosch123> crappy ottd coding style is crappy and asks for bugs
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21:52:32 <_jgr_> blindvt: It was recently changed such that it is controlled by the loading indicator setting in the transparency menu
21:53:40 <frosch123> though i would have expected a compiler warning "unused parameter" in this case
21:54:34 <blindvt> talltyler: that's why we invented photogrammetry -- because CAD by hand just plain sucks ;-) Let the cluster form a first sketch and only then flesh out the skeleton with physics and a brain or two or TheBr.. :-P
21:55:24 <blindvt> _jgr_: ohhh! thus hiding it from the usual settings search -- many thanks for the hint!
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21:57:34 <talltyler> I've only tried a bit of photogammetry (and failed), but it seems like more trouble than it's worth in many cases
21:58:49 <blindvt> _jgr_: this begs the question why, from a user perspective, the different flavours of settings are _so_ much distinct and i as a user cannot simply use a single dialogue window to apply a search-filter for all of settings, game-settings, newgrf-settings, whatnot-settings. I mean, we have a UI-tree in there anyway, so why are all those settings in distinct "areas of interest"? Just a hought.. I don't volunteer for further refurbishing that aspect
22:02:06 <blindvt> volunteer to. I'll better get some sleep now at any rate.
22:04:28 <truebrain> Okay, that is horrible
22:05:05 <truebrain> Mass prefix with m_ now?
22:08:21 <_jgr_> blindvt: The transparency settings are distinct because they're mostly toggled using the 'x' key, rather than using the settings window
22:08:40 <peter1139> Urgh, we do sometimes get warnings when variables are shadowed...
22:08:57 <peter1139> Or maybe that was my linter/checker that I don't have installed any more.
22:10:38 <peter1139> truebrain, no particular objection to m_ prefix from me, but it is a massive changeset :D
22:12:11 <truebrain> Not the first.... 😄
22:12:27 <truebrain> I had similar issues in CargoPacket, it is just a massive pain
22:12:50 <peter1139> Also all the saveload stuff would need explicit names (not necessarily a bad thing), so it's not just a simple search & replace refactor...
22:13:38 <truebrain> It isn't a simple search anyway 😛
22:13:56 <truebrain> And yeah, more and more saveload members are getting named already .. 😛
22:14:27 <frosch123> no scolding for using an old OS version?
22:15:28 <truebrain> Why? What is the benefit of that?
22:16:00 <truebrain> Just surprised newer compilers do define _exit ? Bit weird
22:17:13 <truebrain> Reminds me that UserError runs abort, which creates a crash log, which is a bit odd ....
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22:31:41 <blindvt> frosch123: ok so the missed warning about the unused param is intriguing. May i ask you to reduce that missed warning and file a bug with gcc? That one _really_ is somehing that we should diagnose and i wonder why we don't
22:32:59 <frosch123> i do not even know whether the warning is enabled by default 🙂
22:33:51 <blindvt> (I'm not too much into the c++ frontend, but it's IMHO a severe bug that sounds rather cumbersome to miss!)
22:35:36 <frosch123> Wunsed-parameter seems to be part of Wextra only, not Wall
22:36:04 <frosch123> oh, we disable it explicitly 🙂
22:36:11 <blindvt> frosch123: -Wunused-parameter is supposedly enabled by "-Wextra -Wunused OR -Wall" where -Wextra IIRC is -w
22:36:31 <blindvt> frosch123: oh the horrors, so there you are -- don't do that then.
22:36:51 <frosch123> truebrain: [[maybe_unused]] is c++17, so it's possible to put that everywhere needed
22:36:51 <truebrain> Maybe we could enable shadow warnings instead
22:37:32 <frosch123> traditionally it's also possible to elide the parameter name
22:37:52 <michi_cc[d]> Leaving out the name is too old fashioned now? :p
22:38:03 <peter1139> There's a lot of them, heh.
22:38:39 <blindvt> likewise: you by default turn off VRP which really is a bad idea (nowadays). I tweaked that to -fstrict-enums instead of -fno-vrp for i just don't buy "your" argument that you have to turn off VRP because once in the past you consider VRP to be unfriendly to your usage of enums (see git grep vrp cmake/)
22:42:25 <frosch123> truebrain: 12494 warnings with Wunused-parameter 🙂
22:43:01 <blindvt> michi_cc[d]: bollocks. It's the commitees way to use __attribute__((__unused__) nowadays, since -- what? -- 15 years or 10.
22:44:08 <truebrain> frosch123: Big patch 🙂
22:44:11 <peter1139> Hmm, yeah, these use-inheritance-as-interfaces classes give unused warnings... that's annoying.
22:44:22 <michi_cc[d]> Well, MSVC hasn't gotten that attribute memo.
22:45:02 <truebrain> frosch123: And what if you enable shadow parameter? At least I assume it would trigger there
22:46:19 <blindvt> michi_cc[d]: unnamed parameters are fine "nowadays" and way better than void foo(struct baz* __attribute__((__unused__))you_name_it){stuff();}; Just say void foo(struct baz*) {stuff();} an be done.
22:46:46 <peter1139> Wshadow is probably useful to add... lots of warnings from that.
22:47:23 <peter1139> In fact, so many, I'm not sure it's doing what I'd expect :D
22:47:38 <blindvt> truebrain: shadow would be if you shadow the param, i.e. if you use the name of the incoming stack area's name of the param to scope the param differently, as you certainly know
22:48:04 <truebrain> Wow, that attitude is really uncalled for
22:48:32 <peter1139> shadowing was the exact cause of this problem.
22:49:51 <blindvt> truebrain: meh, didn't mean to sound rude, sorry for that. But is it really shadowing in C++? Not sure about the C++ rules but i thought that not, no?
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22:50:57 <robamd64> Is it possible to cross-compile OpenTTD for RISC-V?
22:51:05 <blindvt> this always is confusing for i'm most intimately familiar with C and other langs apart from C++ for some aspects :)
22:52:04 <peter1139> Okay, the exact problem is using the wrong variable, but Wshadow would've helped. Wunused-parameter would help if we didn't have so many.
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22:52:32 <blindvt> robamd64: there are some hand-written blitters, but i guess there are plain fallbacks, so sure, why not?
22:53:59 <robamd64> So, it's possible, but with a lot of work
22:54:18 <peter1139> Hmm, constructors with parameter names the same as their members... oh well.
22:54:24 <blindvt> robamd64: you could try to use target_clones tagged unto the fallback for your cores to get some if not most of the benefit back, lacking hand-written specializations for the implementations you want to target
22:54:51 <truebrain> robamd64: Why cross compile? But kinda depends on the OS
22:55:12 <robamd64> I'm cross-compiling for a buildroot install
22:55:15 <truebrain> Does Debian already support the target?
22:55:22 <michi_cc[d]> If the target has OpenGL, the specialized SSE blitters are mostly meaningless.
22:55:26 <blindvt> robamd64: no, not a lot of work. It should work out of the box if written well (didn't look).
22:55:57 <truebrain> If there is an SDL version, you will be fine
22:56:07 <robamd64> Can you walk me through it then? Kind of a noob here at this whole thing
22:56:16 <truebrain> Or build a dedicated server, ofc
22:57:36 <truebrain> What compiler do you have available to you? Is there cmake available? Do you have SDL dependency ready?
22:58:23 <truebrain> Debian riscv64 is getting there pretty nice I see .. sweet
22:58:53 <peter1139> Widget code shadows a lot. `width` and `height` etc for a start... :)
22:59:19 <blindvt> robamd64: i maintained buildroot for a decade long before Loongson or RISC-V manifested, so wouldn't know the current state of affairs, but just give it a try. Consider anything non-working as bug and tell us, please. I'm pretty sure there's interest to help improving any eventual mishaps you may encounter.
22:59:29 <robamd64> I'm targeting some odd hardware, but I do have some cross-compilation tools available to me but not cmake from what I can tell
22:59:51 <truebrain> OpenTTD needs a compiler that can do C++17, and needs CMake
23:00:04 <truebrain> Without that, you won't get anywhere
23:00:14 <truebrain> All other dependencies are kinda optional
23:00:53 <truebrain> From there on, cmake will tell you what to focus on next 🙂
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23:01:54 <truebrain> Debian didn't apply any additional patches for riscv64, so one can assume it "just works" after that
23:02:03 <blindvt> robamd64: there's a cmake package in buildroot, i'm pretty sure. And there are several, or at least 2 C++17 Compilers available in there, so you should be set. I _think_ that cmake rules are supported too, for building cross packages.
23:02:53 <_glx_> a recent enough cmake and a recent enough compiler
23:03:14 <truebrain> robamd64: Depending how odd the hardware is, realise OpenTTD needs a bit of memory. It won't run on an ESP32-C3 😛
23:03:26 *** palmito has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
23:03:51 <kamnet> FLHerne: Welcome back! A similar thing happened in the US in 1980. An oil rig that was being prepared to drill had not properly surveyed the lake it was in, and instead of drilling into an oil reserve it drilled into the top of one of the caverns of the Diamond Crystal Salt Company mine 460 m below the surface. This resulted in fresh water rushing in, dissolving the pillars within minutes and
23:03:51 <kamnet> triggering a mine collapse. The sinkhole then opened up and sucked down the oil right platform, 11 barges, a tugboat, and 65 acres of farmland. That then triggered the reversal of a drainage canal, leading to sea water from the Gulf of Mexico to flow upstream and back into the drained lakebed. After a week the air trapped in the mines escaped in huge 120 m guysers, and it burped up the 11 barges.
23:03:51 <kamnet> Everybody in the mine and on the oil rig, and one fisherman in the lake escaped safely. The remaining caverns of the salt mine are now used to store natural gas.
23:04:08 <robamd64> truebrain: 64mb of onboard and an extra 256mb of swap
23:04:11 <blindvt> robamd64: cmake had trouble to cross-compile several years ago when it only worked quasi-natively, but IIRC that was fixed since then so just assume it should work flawlessly. Please tell the buildroot list if you experience trouble, i'm sure folks will help you through.
23:04:57 <robamd64> To be specific, I'm using a Milk-V Duo with a graphical interface over X11VNC
23:05:55 <truebrain> Yeah, don't expect too much 😛
23:06:12 <_glx_> that's not a lot of memory
23:07:21 <truebrain> Given you also need to run an X11 server if you want a GUI .. Will not leave a lot for OpenTTD 🙂
23:07:48 <robamd64> truebrain: I do have that lol
23:07:49 <truebrain> But don't let that stop you :S
23:07:54 <_glx_> IIRC VS showed near 200MB just after starting and in main menu
23:08:11 <robamd64> I just wanna see if it'll run for the hell of it
23:08:19 <truebrain> Nah, OpenTTD can run under 50MB
23:08:22 <FLHerne> You can play early OTTD with 64MB and no swap, I've done it
23:08:43 <_glx_> I have a lot of newgrf to scan at start 🙂
23:08:53 <FLHerne> on a PowerBook 1400, which was also... fun to compile for
23:09:02 <truebrain> Title games ran at 48 or so
23:09:12 <FLHerne> and needed some horrible out-of-tree kernel patches
23:09:50 <kamnet> robamd64: Looks like a fun project!
23:09:56 <truebrain> robamd64: Well, enjoy! 😄 If you can't get SDL to work, we also support Allegro
23:10:08 <FLHerne> _glx_: debug symbols will bloat it substantially if enabled
23:10:25 <_glx_> well it was a debug build 😉
23:10:33 <FLHerne> also, has the default sprite cache size increased?
23:11:08 <robamd64> kamnet: I just rickrolled myself with it over MPV, it struggled to play a 360p MP4 lol
23:11:17 <FLHerne> it probably should have done because ~everyone has tons of RAM now
23:11:49 <blindvt> robamd64: i'm not really familiar with openTTD, but i suspect that it's merely an integer program, so 64MB RAM and one 1GHz CPU should be plenty for a lot of fun (if your video-core is able to pipe enough data to the display). Other than that, i take it you know that nowadays there are some vastly powerful RISC-V chips in the pipeline (if not already generally available), so you might try to get your hands on one of those and not such an IOT-kin
23:12:43 <truebrain> robamd64: Yeah, your fps won't be great in OpenTTD 😛
23:12:51 <truebrain> But who cares, its fun 🙂
23:12:59 <FLHerne> truebrain: I don't think you technically *need* an X server, SDL can render direct to framebuffer if you tinker a bit
23:13:14 <FLHerne> it could years ago, anyway
23:13:17 <truebrain> FLHerne: Not with X11vnc 😛
23:13:33 <blindvt> truebrain: is allegro nowadays competitive to DSL, performance-wise for constrained boxes? Back in the days, allegro was way behind in terms of efficiency. Did that somehow change?
23:13:59 <robamd64> Obviously the hardware isn't built for this type of intense application, it's meant for AI. But I love getting things to do what they're not supposed to
23:14:00 <blindvt> s/DSL/DSL/;# oh well :)
23:14:12 <_glx_> the only diff I can see is sdl support of opengl
23:14:40 <robamd64> So, how do I go about compiling OpenTTD again?
23:15:02 <robamd64> Sorry I was half paying attention to this convo and the VNC viewer on my laptop lol
23:15:21 <truebrain> robamd64: In my life I ported OpenTTD to the weirdest platforms, so I understand 😄 from PSP, to cross compiling to MacOS when it was considered "impossible" 😄 it is good fun!
23:15:46 <blindvt> muscle brain playing tricks on me. I was one of those who wrote the faster ancestor of SDL back then, so maybe that counts as an excuse for my inability to type 'em correctly ;)
23:15:47 <truebrain> robamd64: Get compiler that supports C++17, get CMake, get SDL
23:15:56 <_glx_> happy we now have native macos in CI 😉
23:16:07 <robamd64> truebrain: So I try to compile on the device itself?
23:16:21 <_glx_> no you can cross compile
23:16:24 <truebrain> Nah, can be done in buildroot if you like
23:17:02 <_glx_> we actually cross compile arm windows version
23:17:19 <_glx_> you can check the workflows
23:17:25 <truebrain> Buildroot will make cmake do the right thing too
23:17:26 <robamd64> Let me check the config, I've been using someone else's who's been running X over an SPI screen on their Duo
23:18:14 <_glx_> it's a 2 step process, first the tools for host, then the target with info about where to find the tools
23:18:31 <truebrain> Or else you can always try with OprnEmbedded 🙂
23:19:07 <robamd64> So I need to try and find a supported cmake for RISCV"?
23:19:11 <truebrain> But if you have buildroot running already, just a matter of setting dependencies
23:19:34 <robamd64> The buildroot system already has SDL and SDL2
23:19:35 <_glx_> if you cross compile cmake just need to be supported by host
23:19:41 <truebrain> Buildroot should take care of that for you. But I start to have the impression you don't know how to work with buildroot 😄
23:19:47 <truebrain> Learning curve ahead!
23:19:55 <robamd64> truebrain: I have some idea
23:20:11 <robamd64> I've been working with mostly kernel and the defconfig for a while
23:20:37 <truebrain> Good! So just add OpenTTD, slap the dependencies on it, and let buildroot take care of the rest
23:21:03 <truebrain> SDL2 also uses cmake
23:21:08 <truebrain> So you will be fine 🙂
23:21:37 <robamd64> truebrain: Wait like make a custom package?
23:22:01 <truebrain> Yes, ofc, what else did you expect?
23:22:13 <truebrain> You need to build OpenTTD at some point
23:22:42 <_glx_> there's still the important part of first building the tools (strgen and settingsgen) for the host
23:22:46 <robamd64> I was mostly expecting to somehow reconfigure and build openttd myself and just copy it over to the filesystem
23:22:57 <truebrain> Plenty of tutorials on the Web to tell you how to add a package to buildroot, including ones that use cmake 🙂
23:23:11 <_glx_> but I guess it's configurable
23:23:11 <truebrain> Via a package is 20x easier
23:23:21 <truebrain> Let buildroot do the work for you
23:23:48 <peter1139> 20x is quite specific...
23:23:54 <truebrain> But this is the toying part; I am off to bed, have fun with it 🙂
23:24:19 <truebrain> peter1139: If it was OpenEmbedded it would have been 13.7x
23:24:54 <peter1139> Shall I sit here all night doing F2 refactor to prefix with `m_`? ;p
23:25:15 <_glx_> do we really want that ?
23:25:17 <truebrain> I will YOLO approve
23:25:26 <peter1139> _glx_, probably not :D
23:25:42 <_glx_> you'll need to update the wiki after
23:27:38 <peter1139> We should spend a few years bikeshedding over which prefix to use.
23:28:38 <_glx_> yeah and one prefix for other kind of variables too
23:28:48 <robamd64> _glx_: I should probably start with this
23:29:33 <robamd64> Actually, I have no idea how
23:29:41 <robamd64> Are they OpenTTD related tools?
23:32:53 <_glx_> yeah your build workflow will first run cmake for host with -DOPTION_TOOLS_ONLY=ON option, then build it, then it will run cmake for target with -DHOST_BINARY_DIR=<path_to_the_host_tools> and build openttd
23:32:53 <truebrain> peter1139: Compilers should just have a flag: don't allow member access without `this->`
23:33:15 <_glx_> but all that should be in the package
23:34:34 <robamd64> still trying to figure out config.ln lol
23:35:18 <_glx_> I guess openttd is not the easiest choice as first try 🙂
23:35:59 <robamd64> Something like this maybe?
23:35:59 <robamd64> config BR2_PACKAGE_OPENTTD
23:35:59 <robamd64> depends on BR2_PACKAGE_CMAKE
23:36:01 <robamd64> select BR2_PACKAGE_SDL2
23:36:16 <robamd64> Or does it need normal SDL
23:36:38 <_glx_> we support both SDL and SDL2
23:39:07 <robamd64> Someone already ported OpenTTD to buildroot, brb gonna try this lol
23:45:09 <_glx_> yeah always best to start from existing
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