IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-08-17
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09:48:36 <pickpacket> so is lunch. It's almost lunch time
10:17:15 <kamnet> I haven't even had breakfast yet. I probably should. It's been about 12 hours since I had a meal. Blood sugar is starting to drop
10:40:32 <pickpacket> kamnet: eat. I decree that you must eat
10:41:14 <peter1138> Hmm, my CI finished by gitea thinks it didn't 😮
10:44:44 <pickpacket> my bazel setup won't build
10:50:56 <peter1138> I use Woodpecker, simple enough, although gitea has since implemented its own built-in CI modelled around github's.
10:57:18 <kamnet> But I must keep refining my NewGRF settings... the power of the game compels me
10:57:56 <alfagamma_0007> Got into the railfanning rabbit hole
11:02:20 <pickpacket> kamnet: which newgrf?
11:02:29 <pickpacket> alfagamma_0007: rainfanning?
11:03:18 <pickpacket> alfagamma_0007: *railfanning?
11:12:00 <truebrain> Lol, did that PR create so many mutations that the bot got ratelimited? 😄
12:08:33 <kamnet> pickpacket: Today I'm taking another look at cramming as many roadtypes in as possible. I decided to ditch U&Ratt because as I added the other types I found too much overlap. Alas, none of the sets give me a very great satisfaction, although Quast65 is getting closer. I wish more sets allowed you to configure speed limits. I've got too many roads in the 40-55 km/h range and not enough for faster
12:08:33 <kamnet> speeds. But I have managed to find a way to max out all 54 slots and get just about everything I ever wanted.
12:11:30 <andythenorth> it's almost like the speed limits are a .... bad idea 🙂
12:11:39 <pickpacket> kamnet: why do you want to set speed limits?
12:19:45 <alfagamma_0007> pickpacket: Yes railfanning
12:20:08 <alfagamma_0007> Couldn't take photos , courtesy of the Railway police
12:20:47 <pickpacket> alfagamma_0007: I don't know what the word means
12:21:14 <alfagamma_0007> It's called appreciating the institution of railways mostly
12:21:24 <alfagamma_0007> Or railroad in US English
12:23:59 <pickpacket> to be a fan of railways
12:24:45 <alfagamma_0007> I really love how I can ping someone on the IRC channel and vice versa
12:26:36 <pickpacket> I keep forgetting that there's a discord channel connected to this IRC channel :D
12:29:24 <peter1138> Hmmm, saving 16 bytes per vehicle is not that much.
12:34:40 <pickpacket> peter1138: not per instance of the vehicle?
12:37:11 <peter1138> Though Wentbourne has 85504 vehicles, so that's 1.3MB.
12:38:00 <pickpacket> 85504 different vehicles in one newgrf?
12:38:50 <peter1138> The Wentbourne save doesn't use any NewGRFs.
12:39:44 * pickpacket doesn't know what Wentbourne is
12:40:11 <peter1138> It's an old but large savegame, useful for testing some performance tweaks.
12:40:24 <pickpacket> peter1138: but do you mean that you save 16 bytes per vehicle on the map or 16 bytes per vehicle model?
12:40:25 <peter1138> Given it has 85504 vehicles... 😄
12:40:35 <peter1138> Oh, Vehicles on the map.
12:40:36 <pickpacket> how big is the map?
12:40:55 <peter1138> In OpenTTD, the prototype definitions are called Engines,.
12:41:49 <pickpacket> My games often have upwards of 1,000 vehicles in them. I guess 16kB isn't that much of a save, but it's not nothing
12:41:57 <pickpacket> peter1138: even carriages?
12:42:50 <pickpacket> How do you even fit that many vehicles on a 1024x1024 map? 😂
12:44:53 <peter1138> Well you could put them all in one depot. But no, 1024x1024 is a large map already.
12:46:26 <andythenorth> save the 16 bytes!
12:46:33 <andythenorth> then we can use them for grf storage 😛
12:46:38 <_jgr_> You can quite easily reach a very high number of vehicles when using articulated sets like Timberwolf's
12:47:46 <peter1138> Try getting 2 million vehicles on a 1024x1024 map ... should be doable with two per tile 🙂
12:47:59 <peter1138> The game will give up first though.
12:48:26 <peter1138> andythenorth: Someone will want 1KB of storage per vehicle.
12:48:36 <andythenorth> can't think who 😛
12:48:51 <peter1138> (Not even joking, 256 entries of persistent storage is 1KB)
12:49:47 <peter1138> Who has the Consists patch?
12:53:44 <Bouke> peter1138: Multi-threading when?
12:54:39 <andythenorth> we should have a thread to animate grf industries
12:54:47 <andythenorth> does it matter if that desyncs?
12:58:22 <_jgr_> It's not quite as simple as "just" doing something in a thread
12:59:39 <andythenorth> also ... do we need it? 😛
13:01:54 <Bouke> andythenorth: Dunno if it is part of the v14 survey, could be interesting
13:04:21 <peter1138> No, things that don't exist aren't included in the survey data.
13:05:56 <Bouke> Performance measures, that is…
13:06:28 <_jgr_> You don't really need the survey for that
13:06:55 <_jgr_> You can just start a map with notable GRFs like FIRS, XIS, etc and measure the performance
13:07:46 <peter1138> Hmm, should the survey data include the total number of vehicles. Currently it has aircraft, roadvehs, ships and trains, which sum up to a considerably lower amount as they don't include the non-leading parts.
13:08:32 <Bouke> Yes like how the performance experience is across users: are the noticing slowdowns, fast-forward limitations.
13:08:58 <alfagamma_0007> I had a question
13:08:58 <alfagamma_0007> How many vehicles can one newgrf contain?
13:09:14 <belajalilija> think its 65535 IDs
13:09:30 <alfagamma_0007> That's more than enough then
13:09:57 <brickblock19280> there is some other limit for articulated engines iirc but you won't reach it
13:10:18 <belajalilija> GETS people seem concerned about reaching limits
13:10:34 <belajalilija> but they do have like 1000 versions of each vehicle
13:10:43 <brickblock19280> maybe with variant tbf
13:11:23 <alfagamma_0007> I will probably have like 25 variants for each passenger carriage
13:11:38 <alfagamma_0007> So it's better to know what are the limits
13:12:21 <_jgr_> That does rather seem like heading into the realm of diminishing returns
13:12:32 <belajalilija> well after well after 65535 the next limit will probably be 428343295 :kek:
13:12:51 <alfagamma_0007> That would require a supercomputer to run then
13:13:23 <belajalilija> give it 20 years and it'll be possible probably
13:13:31 <belajalilija> just look at how much things have changed in the past 20
13:14:13 <peter1138> Number of engines doesn't really cost performance (beyond showing engine lists), it's just memory.
13:14:19 <alfagamma_0007> I would probably lose interest by then
13:14:36 <peter1138> I already have a patch to increase the limit but given the current limit is high enough there's not much point right now.
13:14:42 <pickpacket> peter1138: maybe I'm strange but I don't consider 1024x1024 to be a large map. It's the size I usually play on
13:14:51 <locosage> peter1138: it's somewhat interesting but leading parts are more important
13:15:13 <belajalilija> comparing my current PC to the PC i grew up using, i have about 512 or even 1024 times more RAM now
13:15:43 <peter1138> ... 2 million times.
13:16:20 <pickpacket> belajalilija: Yeah, I think my first computer had an 80MB hard drive
13:16:30 <belajalilija> peter1138: you're old enough to remember RAM measured in KB?
13:17:07 <pickpacket> would OpenTTD run on the kind of specs computers had in the mid-90's?
13:18:07 <belajalilija> openttd is 20 years old and it's not unnreasonable to think that when it came out people ran it on windows 95 machiens
13:18:07 <alfagamma_0007> It is compatible with original transport tycoon I think?
13:18:12 <alfagamma_0007> It should work
13:18:14 <pickpacket> 🤷 I know the game has grown a lot since
13:18:39 <pickpacket> how big is the windows binary?
13:23:29 <peter1138> No, OpenTTD needs a lot more RAM compared to TTD.
13:23:54 <alfagamma_0007> As expected from a modern piece of software
13:29:22 <andythenorth> `The prototype BBC Micro exceeded the CPU's specifications, causing it to fail. The designers found that putting a finger on a certain place on the motherboard caused the prototype to work. Acorn put a resistor pack across the data bus, which Furber described as "'the engineer's finger' and again, we have no idea why it's necessary, and a million and a half machines later it's still working, so
13:29:22 <andythenorth> nobody asked any questions".`
13:35:54 <kamnet> And to think that will be represented in a FPGA one day.
13:49:35 <truebrain> peter1138: Could add the size of the pools in general. Might be a good idea
13:49:59 <peter1138> Hmm, yeah, generically add all the pools would be better 🙂
13:50:34 <truebrain> Feel free to PR it, otherwise I will soon (tm) 🙂
13:50:50 <peter1138> Difficult to include the size (bytes) of them though :/
13:52:39 <peter1138> kamnet: Probably already done. But it can also be emulated perfectly in a web-browser...
14:56:05 <talltyler> peter1138: michicc was who I discussed it with, but I'm not sure if it is "idea" or "patch" 🙂
15:12:08 <andythenorth> ship variants will be happening then
15:31:52 <andythenorth> this is very much just to get it working
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16:24:29 <Bouke> I've discovered a feature that some might consider a bug, but I don't want it fixed lol. I can activate fast-forward in multi-player games using the TouchBar.
16:31:01 <pickpacket> Bouke: but… how? 🤔
16:31:13 <pickpacket> Are you server or client?
16:35:27 <Bouke> Client follows along, but doesn't show the fast-forward button being active
16:40:58 <_glx_> touchbar is poorly implemented 🙂
16:44:06 <andythenorth> I would remove it TBH
16:44:11 <andythenorth> it's a turkey feature
16:44:47 <Bouke> I like that the TouchBar isn't a black screen in OTTD.
16:45:37 <Rubidium> _glx_: it has nothing to do with the touchbar being poorly implemented
16:45:49 <andythenorth> hmm Horse 28s to compile 800 trains
16:45:49 <andythenorth> Sam 13s to compile 84 ships
16:45:59 <andythenorth> 'improvements could be made'
16:46:09 <Bouke> Does the survey collect Make and Model of the machine it is running on? TouchBar will be around for a few years still
16:46:22 <Rubidium> ... it's the hotkey for fast forward that doesn't do any checks. If you set the hotkey and press it in a server game I'm fairly certain you can reproduce it with Windows like I can reproduce it with Linux
16:46:40 <Bouke> But yeah... TouchBar probably hooks into something that doesn't perform any checks.
16:47:07 <_glx_> ah yeah that's probably hotkey handling
17:13:52 <michi_cc[d]> peter1138: I have a perpetually unfinished consist branch. I think a somewhat stale state is on my Ottd GitHub clone.
17:21:16 <alfagamma_0007> Don't you love it when you start researching about some trains and your information is behind a paywall?
17:21:32 <alfagamma_0007> Classic foamer paradox
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17:36:49 <andythenorth> not sure it's a paradox mate 🙂
17:37:16 <andythenorth> it's not exactly Zeno
17:45:16 <_glx_> _glx_: and it's a super easy fix (I'm doing it)
18:38:27 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:40:57 <truebrain> Discord API is eating more and more messages .. odd
18:45:53 <andythenorth> so shall we merge JGR's ships thing?
18:45:58 <andythenorth> the multiple cargo holds?
18:48:15 * andythenorth looking for the commit
18:56:02 <andythenorth> looks like about 9 commits
18:56:14 <andythenorth> but maybe they depend on other JGRPP changes?
18:57:02 <andythenorth> 9 or so I found so far
18:57:28 <andythenorth> ach I can't collate them into an OpenTTD issue 😦
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19:19:56 <andythenorth> it's not a bug report or a crash
19:28:04 <truebrain> so the update to MacOS 13.5 went fine .. but then it wanted to update to 13.5.1 .. and now it seems a bit stuck 😛
19:28:11 <truebrain> also, coreaudiod is consuming 100% CPU ..
19:29:03 <truebrain> ofc I forgot to make snapshots ... so I guess I have to start over again? Ugh 😛
19:29:52 <truebrain> owh, after 4 reboots .. it seems to have fixed itself (in regards to starting at least)
19:30:51 <truebrain> and there is coreaudiod again ... and performance drops like a brick 😛
19:33:29 <truebrain> seems producing sounds also has a very negative impact on performance 😄
19:34:08 <truebrain> and why is DorpsGek not reporting all activity here, but it is in some other Discord channels I have it mirror ... odd
19:38:47 <peter1138> Usually sound mixing is done in a separate thread
19:39:25 <andythenorth> coreaudiod used to have a bug where it ate cpu
19:40:05 <truebrain> it even lags my host system, lol
19:40:22 <truebrain> let's try to remove some files in the hope to just flatout disable sound all together
19:42:19 <truebrain> (as it seems impossible to remove files from Finder, I need to get Terminal to open and NOT make any sound .. the latter is more difficult than I would like to admit ...)
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19:45:18 <truebrain> even from Terminal I am not allowed to remove those files, ggrrrrr
19:45:21 <truebrain> I just want to disable audio
19:51:32 <truebrain> I gave up. Tomorrow another attempt 😛
20:50:38 <_glx_> is that the comment from 10h ago ?
20:58:22 <talltyler> Finally made it through the kink in the internet cable
21:02:30 <truebrain> Discord API is acting really weird and annoying 😦
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21:18:30 <andythenorth> should I not use vehicle spritelayers?
21:18:37 <andythenorth> concerned about performance
21:38:20 <truebrain> how do I install XCode .. hmm
21:38:45 <truebrain> typing `clang` in Terminal seems to do the trick
21:39:16 <_glx_> like typing bash in windows opens the store to install ubuntu in wsl ?
21:39:39 <truebrain> I was afraid I would need an Apple account, but that doesn't seem to be the case
21:49:51 <truebrain> okay, now I have clang .. lets get vcpkg!
22:03:09 <truebrain> flawless victory on that front .. time to compile OpenTTD .see how tha goes 😄
22:03:22 <truebrain> well, when doing something in the VM, my host stutters .. nice
22:04:44 <truebrain> hmm .. how to get cmake .. hmm
22:04:58 <truebrain> but weird vcpkg doesn't 😛
22:07:42 <truebrain> compiles faster than on my host .... that is disturbing ...
22:11:43 <truebrain> well, at least the linking time makes up for it, as that takes for ever 😛
22:15:19 <truebrain> the VM is still doing something, but it aint much 😄
22:19:18 <truebrain> still not done linking ....
22:19:37 <truebrain> I had good hopes when compiling went pretty quick ..
22:20:36 <truebrain> `kernel_task` is consuming all the CPU .. lol
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22:22:07 <andythenorth> on a real mac, that's often thermal throttling
22:22:23 <andythenorth> it goes up to about 1000% on intel macs
22:22:34 <truebrain> I really hope that isn't the case 😛
22:22:48 <truebrain> no clue how I could validate that 🙂
22:23:44 <truebrain> owh ... I know what is happening ... lolz
22:23:58 <truebrain> I did what I always do ... `make -j$(nproc)`
22:24:05 <truebrain> I think ... `nproc` doesnt exist
22:24:21 <truebrain> so it executed `make -j`
22:24:25 <truebrain> that .... never goes well
22:24:40 <truebrain> explains why compiling was "so fast" 😛
22:26:01 <truebrain> lot slower now, compiling! 😄 😄
22:26:28 <truebrain> also 50% less active threads .. lolz .. "oops" 😄
22:28:05 <truebrain> well, at least DorpsGek does deliver the messages EVENTUALLY
22:28:08 <truebrain> just a few hours late 😛
22:28:40 <_glx_> the delay seems to decrease
22:29:58 <truebrain> okay ... can I start OpenTTD, is the question now ..
22:30:14 <truebrain> starts a blue-ish screen
22:30:52 <truebrain> I'm blue daladielada
22:31:16 <truebrain> also a bit stuck there ... doesn't seem to continue starting ..
22:31:34 <truebrain> wow, those colours ......
22:33:01 <truebrain> `Crash dump written to /Users/dev/Documents/OpenTTD/crash20230817223225.dmp. Please add this file to any bug reports.`
22:33:06 <truebrain> let's see if I can also read that dmp ...
22:34:16 <_glx_> oh we have bug reports about that
22:34:40 <_glx_> sometimes it's with hardware acceleration, sometimes it's without
22:37:07 <truebrain> weirdly, the rest of the colours are fine
22:50:05 <truebrain> okay, that PR is now finished as far as I am concerned .. both Linux and MacOS seem to do what I expect 🙂
22:50:19 <truebrain> next up: ask to send crash report after restart
22:52:10 <truebrain> that PR turned out to be a nice and cute PR 🙂 I like that 🙂
23:04:43 <truebrain> hmm .. I have a hard time transfering data from the VM to anything else .. which is odd, as downloading is very fast ..
23:20:24 <truebrain> `10 openttd!HandleKeypress(unsigned int, char32_t) + 0x1d6`
23:20:30 <truebrain> also on MacOS, I can now see where it crashed 😄
23:21:15 <truebrain> it does lack filename and linenumber for some reason, not sure what is up with that
23:24:29 <truebrain> at least it is a 2000x more useful file than anything else MacOS has given us till this date 😄
23:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i was playing a bit of railway empire... and something disturbs me about that game
23:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> ... with the scenario system, you're always in a hurry. you can't just quietly watch the trains running for a while...
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