IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-08-13
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01:06:19 <kamnet> Just curious, has anybody suggested creating a global scoreboard?
01:07:42 <kamnet> I think if we had such a feature that it might help eliminate the feeling that the game is all about money or give a more visible objective to people who get bored too easily.
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01:34:05 <_jgr_> What would the "score" be?
01:34:28 <_jgr_> The in-game performance score is basically meaningless
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02:34:44 <leothejewishturtle> Can anyone help me figure out why I can't compile the openTTD source code? I made a STL test project just to see if I could display a window and it works, so why wont it compile and launch openttd?
02:36:35 <leothejewishturtle> First image is showing my STL test project and the green debug label and the second picture shows the OpenTTD source code I imported to VS and the debug label is greyed out
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06:09:54 <andythenorth> Max number of statues built
06:43:55 <andythenorth> When is OpenTropico?
06:44:34 <andythenorth> THH I didn’t finish the paud version yet, and it has a sandbox mode also
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08:16:41 <truebrain> that moment `vcpkg install python3` fails with the error: please install python3
08:26:19 <_zephyris> Base graphics question for this lovely Sunday morning - what are people's opinions on my OpenGFX2? It's a bit of a style shift, so keep separate from original OpenGFX? Or try to merge/update the OpenGFX repo?
08:27:09 <alfagamma_0007> Looks exactly like original graphics
08:27:28 <alfagamma_0007> Do you intend to redraw the default vehicles as well??
08:27:58 <truebrain> _zephyris: choices is always good. Some people will like it. Others won't. So in my opinion, call it OpenGFX2 or something completely different 🙂
08:28:33 <alfagamma_0007> Though I am accustomed to opengfx 1 , so I will stick with it
08:28:44 <alfagamma_0007> Now a big fan of extrazoom
08:32:01 <ahyangyi> opengfx2 has a non-ez version as well
08:45:23 <alfagamma_0007> truebrain: Floor is made of floor made of floor???
08:45:35 <alfagamma_0007> Badger badger badger
08:55:58 <truebrain> oof .. more vcpkg problems ... "lzo" is downloaded from an URL that is no longer functional
08:56:12 <truebrain> the domain no longer exists even
08:56:55 <truebrain> means I can steal the domain, I guess 😛
08:59:10 <truebrain> ah, no, their provider is just offline 😄
09:00:41 <truebrain> it is claimed to be a cloud, the host used .. but it doesn't do anything anymore 😛
09:00:47 <truebrain> someone closed their MBP
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09:18:31 <truebrain> hmmm ... seems my change of `InitializeWindowViewport` from yesterday now causes a crash
09:19:09 <truebrain> but I tested ittttttt 😦
09:19:42 <truebrain> ugh, what a stupid mistake
09:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the mod updates of the last few months seems to cause an endless loop in cities:skylines... how the hell would i isolate which one?
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11:14:42 <truebrain> for the first time ever compiling stuff on my new server I bought .. months ago. It is scray fast in comparison to my desktop ..
11:15:12 <truebrain> versus my normal i7-8700K
11:15:29 <truebrain> weird, how a few years of CPU development makes a difference 😄
11:16:43 <peter1138> Kinda annoying. Buying the best at the time is just expensive, and buying with an eye to upgrading later is pointless as nothing is compatible with it later...
11:18:24 <truebrain> yeah .. AMD did try to break that a bit, but yeah ...
11:18:30 <truebrain> so I bought the 5600X as it was a nice balance
11:18:38 <truebrain> but I didn't want to replace my desktop .... now I am tempted 😛
11:20:12 <truebrain> wow, vcpkg is quick in fixing issue .. someone already made a PR to address the Python3 issue ..
11:37:22 <truebrain> running OpenTTD on the other hand, is faster on my 8700K than on my 5600X 😄
11:39:30 <truebrain> ` Unknown ICU component: data` ugh bah .. I was trying to build an older OpenTTD version
11:39:33 <truebrain> can I fix that .. hmmm
11:40:34 <truebrain> we did something weird, where we validated we also knew all ICU components .. and we didn't know about `data`
11:40:37 <truebrain> so totally irrelevant error 😄
11:46:16 <truebrain> `openttd-12.0-beta1~16-linux-generic-amd64` .. lol .. that is an unexpected version number 😛
11:50:07 <andythenorth> peter1138: Was lunch.
12:02:53 <alfagamma_0007> What sort of salad
12:05:47 <LordAro> andythenorth: peter1138: was sausage & black pudding sandwich
12:09:08 <talltyler> Two sausage sandwich?
12:09:12 <peter1138> Leafy greens with tomato/cucumber, etc...
12:09:18 <talltyler> Anything else besides meat and bread?
12:09:33 <peter1138> And then I had an almond croissant to ruin it all, because it was breakfast as well as lunch
12:09:47 <peter1138> talltyler: usually butter 😄
12:10:35 <peter1138> ketchup or brown sauce if the sausage is cheap & nasty
12:12:06 <LordAro> talltyler: there were 2 sausages in it, yes
12:12:23 <LordAro> talltyler: a boat load of butter too
12:16:10 <talltyler> Sounds tasty to me, although my girlfriend made increasingly disgusted faces the more ingredients I relayed to her
12:17:40 <LordAro> peter1138: good speed yesterday, btw
12:21:54 <peter1138> My legs were telling me about it, hah!
12:44:03 <truebrain> I am slowly filling in the points between the current points, but it seems in the last 2 years we got a bit faster
12:44:34 <truebrain> this is a lot of compiling and running 🙂
12:48:01 <truebrain> (this is from just before 12.0-beta1 till now; all compiled as final release builds (so asserts disabled))
12:48:33 <truebrain> I am mostly surprised that the memory footprint went down a lot .. we will see what commit did that 😄
12:52:00 <locosage> most title games don't seem to be particularly meaningful for performance
12:52:17 <locosage> I can send you some big games if you want
12:54:20 <locosage> also, would be interesting to see from like 1.0
12:54:50 <locosage> don't have 1.0 saves though xD
12:57:12 <truebrain> my bisect algorithm is working fine 😄
12:57:20 <truebrain> slowly adding points in the middle of all other points 🙂
12:57:56 <truebrain> (this was with wentbourne deselected, in case that isn't all that clear)
12:58:15 <truebrain> very small games use a bit more memory, but everything else just plummeted
12:58:27 <truebrain> I suspect it is one of peter1138 's saveload vector thingy patches 🙂
12:58:49 <LordAro> truebrain: do JGRPP as well ;)
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13:06:34 <locosage> that was unexpected summoning
13:15:22 <truebrain> that was a lot of work to know for sure there wasn't a regression as far as I can measure 😄
13:16:31 <truebrain> I wonder if I can get GitHub to run this every night, and update the statistics ... I am sure I can 😛
13:47:22 <truebrain> the 1.4 title game is really odd .. does random shit from time to time 😛
14:03:35 <pickpacket> Does anyone happen to have the windows binary of 13.3 at hand?
14:05:09 <truebrain> for all your binaries
14:06:18 <pickpacket> nice! Thanks! Which version should I pick, though? win32, win64, or amd64?
14:07:55 <talltyler> Depends on your computer 🙂
14:08:33 <pickpacket> in this case my gf's computer, which I know nothing about and she knows even less
14:08:42 <pickpacket> trying the win64 and we'll see what happens
14:09:02 <xarothbrook> win64 most likely
14:09:10 <xarothbrook> if that fails, try win32
14:09:24 <pickpacket> xarothbrook: that's what I figure too, thanks :)
14:09:31 <pickpacket> what's special about amd64?
14:09:49 <xarothbrook> which is not a common cpu
14:10:54 <pickpacket> windows on arm must be very unusual
14:11:30 <emperorjake> It's ARM not AMD, not a lot of windows devices have ARM cpus
14:26:13 <LordAro> truebrain: how odd. cargodist, perhaps?
14:26:25 <LordAro> or some other "mildly more representative of a real game"? :p
14:27:25 <truebrain> dunno .. it is the only one that is actually not all that stable
14:27:34 <truebrain> so yeah, something realtime is influencing the behaviour there
14:28:06 <truebrain> but a bit dissapointing that this channel is the same as always .. bitching about what should be different, instead of enjoying what is given 😛
14:31:52 <xarothbrook> Bitching is easy, being helpful takes effort.
14:39:21 <brickblock19280> where do trains and roadvehicles read bridge speed limits
14:41:48 <truebrain> hmm, also seems that the 1.4 title game didn't work for a month or so .. also the memory drops while the CPU usage drops .. 😄
14:50:39 <truebrain> and another pass finished to increase the resolution of the graph .. the next one will take a lot longer 😛
14:51:34 <truebrain> without westbourne, as it is making the title games invisible 😛
14:52:19 <truebrain> build times in 2021 were a lot shorter than now .. despite the tricks we added to make compiling faster 😄
15:11:59 <truebrain> LordAro: 1.4 doesn't have cargodist enabled 😛
15:12:38 <truebrain> setting-wise it is very default-ish
15:14:43 <truebrain> all other games have a jitter of like 0.02% .. the 1.4 games has one of over 3% 😛
15:14:47 <truebrain> something is very weird with that game
15:23:06 <truebrain> memory usage of OpenTTD has been going down pretty drastically 😛
15:23:24 <truebrain> so I was guessing it was one of those vectorize patches 😄
15:27:02 <andythenorth> Patch probably made GS faster also?
15:28:12 <truebrain> lot of commits in the range where it changed .. so I will let me script run to narrow it down a bit more 🙂
15:28:17 <truebrain> will take hours and hours .. if not days 😛
15:34:30 <peter1138> Yeah, it's fine, I'm happy to take it 😉
15:50:07 <locosage> [2023-08-13 15:04:41] dbg: [net] Connection with Game Coordinator lost; reconnecting...
15:50:07 <locosage> [2023-08-13 15:04:41] dbg: [net] Connected to coordinator.openttd.org:3976
15:50:07 <locosage> [2023-08-13 15:04:57] Another server with the same invite-code registered itself. Switching to "local" game-type.
15:50:14 <locosage> multiple servers went local for no reason
15:52:03 <truebrain> That is not for no reason 🙂 seems your connection cut, so we have two incoming TCP connections claiming to be the same server .. sadly that is a hard problem to solve to know which is the right one
15:52:22 <truebrain> Clearly it picked the wrong one here
15:52:44 <truebrain> (It kicks one of the two to "local" to avoid constant battles)
15:52:44 <locosage> there are like 100plus servers missing on the list
15:58:42 <locosage> truebrain: maybe do 1 retry? dead connection won't fight back
15:58:49 <truebrain> I love the entitled done you have here 🙂 really productive 😛
15:59:47 <truebrain> There is no retry possible. There is a choice to make .. a new connection comes in, claiming to be the same server
15:59:56 <truebrain> One of the two have to give
16:23:09 <isosys> I mean, my plan is to do nothing and let the server restart once finished. It should be enough to fix.
16:23:09 <isosys> But you can't really tell your "clients" that or they get mad at you. Costumer service 101 😅
16:25:48 <locosage> you can run `set server_game_type public` on each server to get them backk
16:27:26 <isosys> Thanks for the tip! Let me try
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16:29:57 <isosys> Great! That did the trick. Thanks! 👍
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17:23:19 <andythenorth> truebrain: why are you using a complicated cloud stack to test perf? Just use my MBP zzzzzzzzz
18:24:38 <truebrain> It is crawling on ... you start to see how accurate the performance measurements are 😄
18:38:49 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:45:41 <Bouke> truebrain: The graph looks great, but what is it measuring? The title reads “compile instructions”, but what does compilation have to do with this? Is it counting the number of instructions it takes to simulate a certain in-game period?
18:46:06 <truebrain> where do you read "compile" instructions?
18:47:09 <truebrain> owh, in that note above there. That refers to how the binary was created .. compile as per instructions for linux-generic
18:47:21 <truebrain> you have to compile the binary some time
18:47:26 <truebrain> so I am a bit confused by your question?
18:47:53 <truebrain> ah, I think you didn't read the header of each graph. That states what the graph represents
18:50:17 <Bouke> truebrain: I did read the caption and I don’t understand what is meant by it, hence the question. What is meant by “average CPU of five runs”?
18:50:33 <truebrain> The title reads "Total CPU instructions (lower is better)"
18:50:59 <truebrain> so the graph represents how many instructions the CPU had to process for that savegame
18:51:16 <truebrain> not really sure how to explain this .. hmm .. let me think
18:51:28 <truebrain> just a check question: CPU instructions you are familour with? (before I make stupid assumptions)
18:51:36 <Bouke> CPU instructions consumed to do _what_?
18:52:09 <truebrain> sometimes it is funny to have a mismatch in communication, as I am scratching my head what your question is, and you are scratching your head why I don't understand the question 😄
18:52:55 <truebrain> what I do to create these graphs, and they are relative to themselves, not to eachother btw, is measure how many CPU instructions it took to run the savegame for a predefined amount of ticks
18:53:07 <truebrain> to make sure we are not measuring noise, I run the same savegame 5 times
18:53:50 <truebrain> a CPU instruction is just what the CPU reports back how many instructions it spend on the job asked, in this case, running OpenTTD for a predefined amount of ticks
18:54:05 <truebrain> worth nothing: not predefined amount of time, as time is pointless for this kind of performance test
18:54:10 <Bouke> Right! The number of instructions it takes to simulate a certain number of ticks.
18:54:27 <truebrain> You really confused me with "Compile instructions" 😄
18:54:43 <Bouke> Yes, it confused me as well!
18:54:54 <truebrain> but different instructions
18:55:56 <truebrain> in this case btw, westbourne runs for 300 ticks, the rest 3000 ticks
18:56:04 <truebrain> running westbourne for 3000 ticks is impractical 😄
18:58:14 <Bouke> truebrain: Interesting idea, maybe it could even run per PR to prevent regressions from being merged, and possible improvements be verified.
18:58:34 <truebrain> it could; but as you can see it changes little, so that is a lot of work for very little use
18:58:39 <truebrain> but by all means, knock yourself out 😄
19:00:00 <truebrain> ha, I was validating if the "switch to local" of the game-coordinator was working as intended, which made me discover a nasty bug that has been bugging me for a while 😄
19:02:27 <Bouke> Well seeing that performance is only ever increasing, maybe not as necessary right now.
19:02:54 <talltyler> Care to give #11197 an approval so I can include it in my rebase? 🙂
19:03:15 <truebrain> Bouke: that is how I was balancing it, yes. But yeah, having a tool like I wrote really helps to confirm we are not regressing .. I might integrate it with the nightly 🙂
19:03:34 <talltyler> So many little chunks of weird tech debt to find! 😄
19:03:37 <truebrain> talltyler: if you look into my TileIndex PR 😛
19:04:49 <talltyler> Thanks! Yes, I'll look into your PR this week...too much focus on timers today 🙂
19:05:09 <Bouke> truebrain: Does it include actual rendering? So catching regressions in video rendering regressions?
19:05:22 <truebrain> it does most of the work
19:05:34 <truebrain> just not the part that normally runs in the drawing-thread
19:05:38 <truebrain> which is shocking little
19:06:01 <truebrain> so viewport is rendered and everything
19:06:13 <truebrain> (also why you need OpenGFX, for example, to run dedicated server)
19:07:03 <Bouke> Ok great, so I can use that to measure the impact of that JGR patch (dirty window handling).
19:07:33 <truebrain> some video drivers also handle dirty-rect themselves
19:07:51 <truebrain> so if you want good benchmarks, you have to run it with a GUI 🙂 For which we have little infra
19:08:07 <truebrain> no videodriver handles `ticks` argument .. I have been willing to fix that for a while, but never did 😄
19:08:20 <truebrain> NOTE: I am going to disconnect all multiplayer servers again in a bit; they keep running out of memory, so assigning a bit more.
19:08:46 <truebrain> and deploying that fix while at it, so two disconnects!
19:09:08 <Bouke> truebrain: So that’s maybe a good thing to also address with this patch.
19:09:21 <truebrain> no, not with the same PR please 😄
19:11:38 <truebrain> sorry 30 people connected via TURN 😦 😦 I am so sorry ... but I forgot the TURN service will also restart 😦
19:12:30 <truebrain> that was a shitty thing to do on my part 😦 Owh well ..
19:17:04 <xarothbrook> I demand a refund!
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19:37:11 <truebrain> they reconnected nearly instantly; so all is good I guess 🙂
20:13:05 <truebrain> between 2023-02-26 and 2023-03-03 we made a change that made westbourne very happy memory wise ... the gap is narrowing 😄
20:13:58 <truebrain> and, and the 1.4 game crashed for a few weeks .. that is why the memory and cpu was so low 😛
20:14:14 <andythenorth> Pfff….I made a GS that used about 1GB or so :p
20:14:57 <andythenorth> I think that was in JGRPP though
20:15:17 <truebrain> right, now all I need is a bit more diversity in savegames .. that is always a bit tricky. I have a big archive somewhere on my disk, I should look through it 😛
20:16:43 <truebrain> and we really need a argument that downloads all needed NewGRFs etc from BaNaNaS via the command line
20:27:57 <talltyler> Bouke: If you're looking at upstreaming drawing performance improvements from JGRPP, you might look into also upstreaming two commits attached to this bug report. There's some missing pieces for a clean merge, but if you're up to speed on that stuff maybe you'll find it straightforward to make it compatible. 🙂
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21:14:39 <truebrain> Another sweep .. even more detail .. you can see except for 1.4 it is very stable .. so yeah 😄
21:14:54 <truebrain> now I need to figure out how I can get this in percentages ...
21:25:50 <truebrain> pff, anything more than basic graphs is really hard in grafana 😦
21:26:03 <truebrain> like: give in % against highest in serie
21:29:08 <talltyler> I guess I can't use templates for `static constexpr TimerGameCalendar::Year ORIGINAL_BASE_YEAR = 1920;` 🤔
21:29:29 <truebrain> bit of a weird question .. why do you want a template for a const .. 😛
21:29:33 <truebrain> that question makes little sense 😄
21:30:23 <talltyler> Well, I need to use the original game years for both calendar and economy time
21:30:32 <talltyler> Mostly for saveload, but also NewGRF and inflation
21:30:45 <talltyler> I don't really want to make it part of the timer class
21:30:48 <truebrain> so conceptually you are thinking wrong about this 🙂
21:30:57 <truebrain> the idea of splitting these timers, is that they live in their own world
21:31:07 <truebrain> so you don't even would want to "template" them
21:31:10 <truebrain> they have different meaning
21:31:18 <truebrain> like one is a car, the other is a tree
21:31:30 <truebrain> saying the tree has 10 horsepower makes no sense
21:31:39 <truebrain> it is that distinct that you have to think about these timers
21:31:55 <talltyler> Well, outside Real Time Mode economy time has to follow calendar time exactly, so they're not that different
21:32:16 <truebrain> one could go faster
21:32:21 <truebrain> so they are totally different entities
21:32:28 <truebrain> and as result, you also need two different constants
21:32:37 <truebrain> it makes no sense to mix them or "template" them 🙂
21:32:59 <talltyler> Fair enough, I guess I'll move everything inside the proper classes then
21:33:03 <truebrain> (I go in this deep about this, as it is also why I mentioned the static_casts yesterday .. conceptually, it doesn't add up 😄 )
21:33:10 <talltyler> And get rid of `date_type.h` entirely
21:33:27 <truebrain> I think there is no other way around that, to keep the code sensible
21:33:34 <truebrain> that you either see an economy timer, or a calendar time
21:33:42 <talltyler> It will mean a lot of duplication, that is fine?
21:33:45 <truebrain> but never have to go: why is this calendar timer being added to this economy timer? 😄
21:33:56 <truebrain> you can always make a base class in top, to put the common stuff in there
21:34:12 <talltyler> Ah, didn't consider that 😄
21:34:57 <truebrain> (OO being Object Oriented 😛 )
21:35:20 <talltyler> Uh oh, now I have to come up with a name of the parent class 😛
21:35:47 <truebrain> now how do I normalize this graph in Grafana?
21:42:00 <truebrain> this is so weird ... sometimes Grafana transformations just don't do anything, or at least, it seems that way
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21:57:54 <truebrain> had to check the network traffic to see the error .. lolz
22:10:25 <truebrain> owh, lol, you have Transformations in Grafana, with which you can modify data ... just .. you can't chain them depending on the query .. you can only chain them on all data .. that is not useful at all
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22:25:39 <twb> Is there an easy way to make the openttd start screen a little less busy? i.e. remove the sort of self-playing backdrop
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22:31:19 <truebrain> remove `opntitle.dat` from the installation folder would do it
22:32:25 <truebrain> did find a performance regression with 3 savegames .. this is percentage based from its max, and you can see a clear uptime around 2023-06
22:32:59 <truebrain> this doesn't happen for other savegames
22:35:06 <truebrain> a bit like: all games got a bit quicker, but some suffer just a tiny bit 😄
22:35:13 <truebrain> (realise that these games are very very small games)
22:36:40 <truebrain> during that time, the Utf8Encoder got C++ified
22:36:49 <truebrain> so it might be possible those games use that, relatively, more than the other games
22:37:01 <truebrain> for example because there are a ton of labels .. or because there are very few vehicles 😛
22:37:09 <truebrain> not sure it is actually useful, going this deep in these stats 😄
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22:43:34 <locosage> it may just be something irrelevant
22:43:40 <locosage> pick games that test actual limits
22:43:51 <locosage> lots of vehicles, lots of water, trees, houses, etc
22:44:21 <truebrain> okay, this is also a nice visualisation. The most left value is always 100%, the rest is based on that
22:44:30 <truebrain> you can see the different "type" of games 🙂
22:46:39 <locosage> are all the slow ones < 1.4 ?
22:46:44 <locosage> do you measure saveload?
22:46:51 <locosage> there may be some slow conversion
22:47:25 <locosage> well "slow", ones that got slower
22:47:52 <truebrain> memory is a bit more messy 😄
22:49:15 <truebrain> those that go up in CPU also have another memory pattern than the rest 🙂
22:49:32 <truebrain> hihi, okay, this is fun 😛 Not useful to delve that deep into stuff, but fun 😄
22:51:10 <truebrain> okay, it completely has to do with the simplicity of those 4 titles games 🙂
22:51:53 <peter1138> SDL2: using driver 'KMSDRM'
22:52:08 <truebrain> KMS .. DRM .. what does that have to do with video? 😛
22:52:40 <peter1138> direct rendering manager / kernel mode setting
22:52:52 <truebrain> okay, I did not expcet that 😛
22:52:53 <peter1138> So... it's talking direct without X11 or Wayland.
22:53:00 <truebrain> Key Management System ...
22:53:17 <peter1138> Which is interesting, but not useful because that machine is in a closet upstairs 😄
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22:54:05 <peter1138> After I wiped my Debian WSL install I used vscode-server on a real Debian system 🙂
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22:54:29 <truebrain> okay, from 2021-08 up till like 2022-10 the CPU was slowly going up for all games .. and then it started to go down.
22:54:53 <peter1138> Also, it's even using OpenGL -- OpenGL driver: Intel - Mesa Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 (HSW GT2) (4.6 (Compatibility Profile) Mesa 22.3.6)
22:55:05 <truebrain> VNC to get a display? 😛
22:56:43 <truebrain> I like this graph ... shows our memory usage for all titlescreens is now nearly equal 😄
22:57:34 <truebrain> owh well, time to get some zzzz .. the server will hopefully finish compiling all binaries tomorrow 🙂
22:59:51 <peter1138> Hmm, long HDMI cable? 😄
23:00:34 <peter1138> USB HDMI capture card, sending captured video over the network...
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continue to next day ⏵
