IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-06-24
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07:58:42 <AlphaGamma3521> _zephyris: Some buildings drawn with EZ mostly. Otherwise looks good and complements Andy's Iron horse and road hog well.
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08:24:10 <brickblock19280> There is also sunshine not base
08:25:01 <brickblock19280> It is a grf which replaces a lot of the landscape sprites
08:28:14 <jfs> _zephyris: I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for, but SimCity 2000 and the earlier A-Train games could be candidates
08:29:38 <dP> I like the style of my opengfx upscaling experiment though I never quite finished it
08:29:44 <dP> but blends with 1x very well
08:33:01 <jfs> I can't think of games that really fit that bill, everything else from the era is either vastly different (strategy games like Settlers, Command & Conquer, Warcraft), or much bigger scale (Theme Hospital, X-Com)
08:33:53 <dP> yeah, sprites themselves are meh but the general approach of having basically 1x building just with finer lines looks pretty good
08:33:58 <jfs> if you're okay with a totally different era of human history, Caesar 3 could maybe be useful...
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08:39:20 <dP> though it seems like on overkill for buildings since it's just one rotation
08:39:49 <dP> and it's not as clear with vehicles because of different projections on diagonal views
09:17:06 <emperorjake> Funny that Caesar 3 gets mentioned, I've been playing that a lot recently (with the Augustus modpack)
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09:44:01 <andythenorth> so a single async mode switch covers all of FIRS GS so far
09:44:33 <andythenorth> on a 512 x 512 map, town monthly loop processing was 23 real seconds; with async it's 0 seconds
10:21:49 <andythenorth> so what could we do about storybook button handling? 🙂
10:22:04 <andythenorth> is the execution model just too divergent from what UI needs?
10:37:42 <andythenorth> I think the conclusion might be that GS shouldn't be doing UI
10:37:54 <andythenorth> but we have buttons in storybook and modal choice dialogs
10:39:39 <talltyler> GS shouldn’t be doing UI, except for the Storybook which only exists for them to do UI 😛
10:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> wrong kind of "no"
11:09:31 <brickblock19280> It conveys the feeling I felt
11:15:13 <andythenorth> how can I improve this instructional text?
11:15:39 <andythenorth> or should I just put all the story book content into the town window?
11:16:00 <peter1138> Propose a command to link a town to a story book page
11:16:55 <peter1138> Town/industry/something
11:17:04 <jfs> yeah, command to attach goals/whatever to towns and industries
11:26:57 <andythenorth> so it just needs a spec of some sort
11:29:01 <andythenorth> someone probably has a patch for it?
11:30:14 <peter1138> Heh, discussions eh
11:30:40 <peter1138> Basically you're saying you did propose it but nobody paid any attention 🙂
11:30:48 <andythenorth> well we're not supposed to make issues for feature requests 🙂
11:31:11 <andythenorth> we specifically want a command to open story page, yes?
11:31:21 <andythenorth> and it has to be UI realtime, not event loop
11:31:51 <peter1138> It has to be a command to be able to instruct clients that something should be shown in the town window
11:32:21 <peter1138> Clients can't query the GS running on a server
11:33:43 <andythenorth> is this not a GS command, but a text control code with a storybook page ID?
11:33:52 <andythenorth> (and error handling for the page not existing)
11:36:18 <peter1138> No, the GS needs to issue a Command that goes through the command system so that clients get to see it.
11:36:32 <peter1138> (Like everything GS does)
11:36:46 <peter1138> It's not like vanilla gamestate which is in lock-step across all clients.
11:49:17 <andythenorth> Command to attach a click behaviour, or Command to handle it?
11:52:13 <jfs> possibly both, if you also need to run some logic after the story book page opens
11:52:15 <peter1138> Hmm, I'm assuming story book pages are sent to clients as and when, and can then be opened later by clients.
11:52:49 <peter1138> Anything that requires the GS to do something after the click is a no go if you ask me, because clients don't interact with the GS.
11:52:59 <jfs> yes all the pages are created/modified by the GS and sent to clients as part of save data+commands to update that data
11:55:19 <andythenorth> would running logic after the story page opens not just go via the event system?
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12:42:46 <andythenorth> GSWindow.GSAttachStoryPage() ?
12:48:37 <jfs> I think it'd be better to make it a function of the story page
12:48:50 <dP> imo, the best solution would be to implement links in text
12:49:03 <peter1138> Yes, it's links storypages to other things, not... windows
12:49:26 <jfs> if someone can go check my #7768 Help and manuals PR, that one has links in text!
12:49:29 <peter1138> Who said anything about buttons?
12:49:51 <peter1138> You'd need to send a command to link an town to a story page via text.
12:51:35 <dP> with links in text that command is CMD_TOWN_SET_TEXT
12:54:38 <peter1138> Okay, so storybook is in a pool
12:56:43 <peter1138> So if you could send a string with some magical {STORYBOOK} string code, and the page id as a parameter, then it could work. Don't know if CMD_TOWN_SET_TEXT supports parameters.
12:56:59 <peter1138> Seems to be just a std::string, but maybe it's encoded.
12:58:28 <peter1138> Same for CmdIndustrySetText
12:58:41 <peter1138> And CmdStationSetText is missing 🙂
12:59:21 <dP> ofc it has parameters, all the citybuilders use it xD
13:00:52 <dP> story page is not a very good destination though
13:01:02 <peter1138> No, there are no parameters, they are pre-encoded.
13:01:12 <dP> some kind of lightweight pages that are not in the story book will probably be needed
13:01:17 <peter1138> SetDParamStr(0, this->town->text);
13:01:17 <peter1138> DrawStringMultiLine(tr, STR_JUST_RAW_STRING, TC_BLACK);
13:01:20 <dP> having story page for each town makes no sense
13:01:52 <dP> all script parameters are encoded
13:02:04 <peter1138> Fight that out with andythenorth, that's what he requested.
13:02:25 <peter1138> And there's no particular reason that a storypage link has to be unique for each call to the command.
13:03:18 <dP> peter1138: well, right now story page is the only place that can do custom ui
13:03:22 <dP> it's just not a very good one
13:03:51 <dP> well, and popup windows I guess to a certain extent
13:03:51 <andythenorth> I'm using the story page because it exists
13:04:10 <andythenorth> why introduce another entity?
13:04:21 <andythenorth> I'm +/-0 to story book
13:04:45 <andythenorth> but it already has navigation, some basic layout control, buttons, update date etc
13:05:14 <dP> if you have a page for every town that kind of destroys all the navigation
13:05:52 <andythenorth> it's more compelling to present a case for what's better
13:06:03 <andythenorth> instead of trying to argue away from the proposed solution
13:06:31 <dP> I mean, it's not I'm saying links to story book can't be useful
13:06:37 <dP> I'm just thinking a bit ahead
13:06:47 <dP> links to all kinds of things can be useful
13:07:08 <andythenorth> ok so links to arbitrary objects that support an 'open' interface?
13:07:52 <andythenorth> 'open finances window'
13:08:16 <andythenorth> details of individual vehicles would not fit story book
13:08:20 <andythenorth> unless it was a ledger table
13:08:36 <andythenorth> I'm still potato / potato
13:08:41 <andythenorth> 'done' is better than perfect
13:09:02 <peter1138> _glx_: so there's magic parsing that happens even with std::string? Hmm.
13:24:49 <peter1138> r/openttd is unlocked again, I can now go in an delete all my old shit.
13:25:04 <peter1138> 90% of it is just saying 'use path signals'
13:27:29 <peter1138> Hmm, 9 years ago, some of those posts.
13:28:29 <talltyler> I really don’t get any value from Reddit anymore
13:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never really used reddit...
13:30:24 <peter1138> The r/openttd "unblocking" post is recommending going to tt-forums (or discord, but this isn't really similar)
13:30:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't even know what the latest contrversy is about...
13:31:11 <peter1138> Just enshittification.
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13:31:15 <belajalilija> redditors being redditors
13:31:48 <AlphaGamma3521> I deleted my reddit account
13:32:38 <peter1138> Reddit has very strange behaviour there... if you delete you account, it's just your account that goes. Everything you posted stays.
13:33:15 <peter1138> So I'm slowly deleting posts when subs unlock so I can delete them first 🙂
13:33:16 <AlphaGamma3521> At least fb , insta , GitHub is better
13:33:23 <merni> peter1138: I mean that is the case also for most forums I have been in (which allow for deleting posts)
13:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't you be able to GDPR request all your personal data to be removed?
13:33:42 <merni> AlphaGamma3521: Facebook better 😆
13:33:58 <AlphaGamma3521> Eddi|zuHause: Not everyone is in EU
13:34:18 <merni> many companies don't care actually
13:34:31 <merni> they allow non-EU residents to also exercise similar rights
13:34:46 <merni> easier than checking if you are actually in the EU
13:34:54 <AlphaGamma3521> merni: I meant deleting your stuff (mostly?????)
13:34:54 <AlphaGamma3521> But yes info is for sale anyway
13:35:42 <AlphaGamma3521> It's a nightmare here in India with social security number equivalent accounts getting leaked quite too often
14:14:56 <peter1138> andythenorth: are your town-info story pages company specific?
14:37:33 <andythenorth> peter1138: not currently no
14:38:01 <peter1138> Good, because the town/industry text are not company specific.
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15:09:12 <peter1138> > Fixed a bug that caused the top right LED to not display correctly when adjusting rotary controls
15:18:11 <peter1138> Okay, to fix the horizontal text shadow bug, should I 1) just allow text to overlap the next widget by 1 scaled pixel (easy but technically wrong) or 2) implement a way to add/remove 1 scaled pixel to the layouters as needed (seems like it might be difficult and full of edge cases)?
15:37:44 <peter1138> Hmm, I don't think that failure was me 🙂
16:21:12 <peter1138> > Please don't call it an exploit. Somebody is bound to come along and remove the feature from the game, and not care how many players they upset.
16:27:45 <truebrain> what should I remove?
16:32:01 <truebrain> cool; give me a few
16:32:17 <truebrain> I just ban Iron Horse; fixed, right?
16:35:06 <peter1138> Fix: All train bugs gone.
16:36:20 <truebrain> Feature: trains are a shitty mechanics. Use ships.
16:37:25 <peter1138> No signals, no capacity issues, no track layout problems, no 'need' for templates...
16:41:36 <truebrain> why ships are better!
16:47:38 <dP> there is an actual exploit :p
17:39:47 <jfs> nah just remove signals and collisions, then we won't have bugs with road vehicles getting run over at inopportune times either
17:44:24 <ahyangyi> Everything is a plane
17:49:39 <truebrain> no, everything is an illusion exile
18:40:46 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:48:27 <andythenorth> truebrain: Ships are cheating
18:59:00 <peter1138> That's okay, we'll remove them too.
19:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> truebrain: haven't played that game in a while
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20:03:42 <peter1138> Might as well remove it 🙂
20:08:57 <truebrain> I also hear this GS is giving people trouble; out with it!
20:09:06 <truebrain> so what is left ... road vehicles? 😄
20:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think GS actually solved any problems so far :p
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20:09:59 <michi_cc[d]> Just remove everything except the intro screen. If you can't do anything, you can't cheat either 😛
20:10:24 <truebrain> but the intro screen creates nausia with some people ... out with it!
20:10:33 <truebrain> so ... black screen on startup, c'est tout? Bugfree!
20:10:47 <truebrain> well, ofc we have these issues with window position ..
20:10:52 <truebrain> so we shouldn't open a window at all
20:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> intro screen has way too much *ding*ding*ding*
20:24:24 <jfs> based on that comment, it sounds like we should offer some way to log the debug messages to a file, so users don't need to try to wrangle console windows and redirects, which may or may not be possible/realistic to do on their OS
20:26:56 <jfs> could we use a debuglog.txt in the user data folder and append to that automatically whenever a debug flag is enabled?
20:31:49 <truebrain> and just be mindful that he enabled `-d6`, which is pointless in many ways 🙂 I don't even dare to run that 😛
20:32:47 <truebrain> for some reason I have the suspecion that this "DHCP renewal" is actually a new IP he gets assigned
20:32:56 <truebrain> as that would explain the whole situation 😛
20:33:57 <truebrain> but that would contradict the "I suffer no internet cuts.", which I think is simply untrue 🙂
20:34:32 <truebrain> yeah ... just too bad they decided for us that the logs were not interesting 🙂 The `-dnet=6` contains more useful information than people think 😛
20:34:54 <truebrain> yeah, but worse, it would takes ~30s before the game coordinator sees the broken TCP stream
20:35:07 <truebrain> so you get: A connects, <ip change> B connects, A disconnects, all with same invite code
20:35:22 <truebrain> which is what #79 describes as broken 🙂
20:36:17 <truebrain> I remember I once upon a time had an ISP that changed my IP every DHCP renew
20:36:31 <truebrain> their expire time was the same as their lease time
20:36:43 <truebrain> solution was to force a renew earlier btw
20:37:05 <truebrain> but it was so weird, every night at 0203 all connections were lost, and restored nearly instantly after that
20:37:11 <truebrain> took me a long time before I noticed the IP change
20:38:51 <peter1138> They have updated their comment with a little passive-aggressiveness again :p
20:38:56 <truebrain> anyway, the reason that bug is still open, is because it is crazy difficult to solve properly .. as there are other situations where the reverse happens ..
20:39:28 <truebrain> peter1138: lol. That is just funny 🙂
20:39:41 <truebrain> now we are blamed for using other ports ...
20:42:12 <truebrain> the other thing I can imagine, is when he has a cgNAT, and a DHCP renewal causes the NAT to flush all connections
20:42:35 <truebrain> either way, it sure sounds like a stale connection that is being created .. so yeah ..
20:42:53 <truebrain> I just really don't feel like replying to someone being so passive aggressive .. I got no energy for that shit; maybe someone else does 🙂
20:46:54 <truebrain> owh, that bug above btw is also the reason instances crash like once a week .. then they notice they are not in sync with their partner, so they restart to make sure they are in sync 🙂
20:48:55 <peter1138> That doesn't sound like a crash, that's a controlled restart 😉
20:49:08 <truebrain> I like your optimism 😄
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20:55:02 <andythenorth> the disconnects are probably caused by magnetic bees
21:55:12 <jfs> truebrain: was there a setting to disable STUN and/or TURN for your server?
21:55:33 <truebrain> no; and it is only used if your server isn';t working via direct ip
21:56:29 <truebrain> and firewalling outgoing connections .. I doubt that 😄 As it was working fine 😉
21:59:14 <truebrain> wait till he discovers that port is not the local port!
22:02:09 <truebrain> it cannot be that you are blocking outgoing connections, and yet are connected to the coordinator 🙂 But okay, mostly users have a hard time describing their setup, which is fine 🙂
22:03:06 <truebrain> it still seems that on a DHCP renewal his old TCP connection becomes stale .. and the coordinator handles that case poorly
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22:14:04 <truebrain> sadly, it is always difficult to ask questions to users like this, that gives an answer that could confirm or deny that
22:14:15 <truebrain> you would need things like a netstat result etc
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22:45:05 <dP> _zephyris: some buildings use recolour sprites but 2cc is only vehicles iirc
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23:08:49 <truebrain> Ghehe, I was reading up on when this can happen.. it is not uncommon for ISP DHCPs to only allow DHCP traffic after a discover.. sadly, most clients (rightfully) don't do that when they want to renew. So when they eventually fail to renew, they release, discover and acquire .. which resets the IP stack for a moment
23:09:29 <truebrain> (As in, the IP is removed and added back moments later)
23:09:56 <truebrain> This also means no RST is sent on the remote end of the active connections, but they are sent locally
23:10:09 <truebrain> Some ISPs are funny
23:10:21 <truebrain> Whole rants about this situation on the interwebz
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