IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-05-25
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02:42:54 <glx[d]> I knew immediately what was wrong when looking at crash reason in the log (I triggered the same NOT_REACHED when working on #10848)
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05:38:09 <LordAro> james has been having fun
05:50:20 <petern> Oops, apparently I switched to debug builds at some point. No wonder that 4096x4096 map generation took a while.
05:50:28 <petern> Other than that I didn't really notice though.
05:53:32 <TrueBrain> that is good to hear 😄 It used to be different ..... 😛
05:55:43 <petern> Well I don't have many NewGRFs downloaded in this install 🙂
06:07:35 <Rubidium_> and maybe a relatively low number of towns?
06:11:03 <TrueBrain> it also helps that we no longer draw every frame .. and drawing is slow .. so for debug builds, fast-forward even kinda works 😛
06:47:28 <petern> Hmm, most VS Code themes don't use semantic colorization still. I guess I should not waste time fiddling with colour schemes 🙂
06:52:51 <petern> Well, it is a lot faster in RelWithDebInfo. I just didn't noticed because I'm unobservant...
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07:03:19 <andythenorth> petern: try reload_newgrfs on a running game 🙂
07:03:25 <andythenorth> it's about 5x slower on debug
07:28:57 <petern> Hmm, 11/5 doesn't produce good columns/rows.
07:37:04 <petern> > Invalidate the data of this window if the cargoes or companies have changed.
07:37:23 <petern> Hmm, well, that doesn't work because the window invalidate is not called if the cargoes have changed.
07:40:55 <petern> So does it matter that the cargo is listed down first then across? It actually matches the minimap legend better this way anyway...
07:41:05 <petern> And 11 buttons is... better than 64?
07:49:38 <pickpacket> petern: 11 buttons is definitely better
07:50:16 <Rubidium_> are there any other places where the cargoes are listed? Some of the graphs, but I think those are vertical too... so matching the minimap seems to be fine to me
07:50:35 <TrueBrain> would it be possible to actually match the minimap, as in, make it 7 high?
07:50:44 <TrueBrain> or does that depend on all kind of different factors?
07:53:16 <petern> minimap is only 7 high (minimum) because of 2 rows of buttons next to it.
07:53:46 <petern> the cargo flow legend is 5 high because 15 companies fits nicely into 3x5, I guess.
07:54:22 <TrueBrain> yeah, visually it took me a sec before I matched the information together, that is why I was asking 🙂
07:54:32 <petern> If cargoes was 7 high then companies would be 3x7... but with 1 column only having one entry.
07:54:37 <TrueBrain> it also annoys me there are 4 less saturations in the minimap vs that window 😛
07:54:50 <TrueBrain> but this is just OCD talking, so what-ever 🙂
07:54:58 <petern> It's a completely unrelated saturation
07:55:19 <TrueBrain> it is still visually annoying to see 😄 So a solution is to never show those 2 windows next to each other again 😛 🙂
07:55:27 <petern> We could reduce the cargo flow legend to match 🙂
07:55:49 <petern> Rubidium, station list cargo filter, but that is also ridiculous.
07:58:25 <petern> Those saturation things are totally the same.
08:14:28 <petern> And yes, I removed the extra link graph colours so there are now only 7 colours used...
08:14:50 <petern> The link graph colours can be changed in the settings.
08:16:06 <petern> Although perhaps this window should also be light brown, like the mini map and the graph windows.
08:16:44 <petern> (Making everything grey because it clashes less is also an option, but not a good one)
08:17:21 <petern> Also: Black window title... what?
08:17:53 <TrueBrain> those less saturations looks better .. the difference between a few of those colours were so little .. nice 🙂
08:18:01 <TrueBrain> how does this work with the 100+ company patch? 😛 😛
08:18:36 <petern> I do have a patch to remove the widget index limit.
08:21:43 <petern> It's currently int, uint and byte in places. The byte is pointless...
08:38:51 <Rubidium_> petern: it's a bit weird that the two rows of All/None buttons are slightly lower, making the saturation ones not align
08:39:05 <petern> Waking up at 5:30 is not great for hunger. :/
08:39:24 <petern> That's because all the buttons except All/None use FS_SMALL.
08:39:48 <petern> I think it's because the company icon colour is taller
08:40:05 <petern> So not actually font size related.
08:49:43 <Rubidium_> oh, I guess I missed a 'looking' before 'a bit'... yes, I can have OCD too
09:05:15 <petern> We could make all the buttons the same height I guess
09:31:42 <Rubidium_> petern: do you intend to squash #10853, otherwise the last commit message has a typo
09:32:57 <petern> And yes, otherwise the second commit makes an incompatible savegame, even if only for 1 commit.
09:34:19 <petern> Although I guess it is possible to do it all without changing the savegame format, just tedious and harder to extend later.
09:51:05 <petern> Huh... VS Code search references failing me 😦
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12:25:47 <TrueBrain> well, at least the "send survey on crash" works for the nightlies .. received 5 surveys on crash with a verified client so far 🙂
12:25:59 <TrueBrain> (and 8 of unverified 😛 )
12:26:16 <TrueBrain> still wonder if it would be possible to also attach something about why it crashed
12:27:04 <LordAro> are they all James testing scripts?
12:27:42 <Rubidium_> isn't the version in the survey? Might some of the unverified ones been testing the crashlog-fmt branch?
12:28:05 <TrueBrain> honestly, I am not all that interested in the unverified ones 😛
12:32:20 <TrueBrain> originally I wanted to send the last few stacktraces on crash too, but not all OSes decode them for us
12:32:27 <TrueBrain> and a bunch of pointers is not really useful 😛
12:33:19 <TrueBrain> but, I guess, with the survey, we can see how many crashes happen .. and based on that we can look into adding sentry crashdump stuff .. as currently I can't even estimate the amount of traffic that will produce 🙂
12:35:49 <TrueBrain> anyway, the survey doesn't receive enough results yet a day to process, but just a random fun fact: the `last_newgrf_count`, the highest value so far, 2989 😛
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12:37:59 <TrueBrain> doesn't exist anymore 🙂
12:38:16 <TrueBrain> okay, this is surprising .. 99% of the survey results so far have a 32bpp or 40bpp blitter active
12:38:24 <Rubidium_> maybe someone should make a "content prune" which removes all content that isn't used by the existing savegames
12:38:28 <petern> That is the default now.
12:38:58 <TrueBrain> nevertheless, I did expect more people to switch back for "reasons" 😛
12:39:05 <TrueBrain> remove 8bpp you say? 😛
12:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of users never change the default settings
12:39:42 * pickpacket hasn’t changed default
12:39:44 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is a statistical lie
12:39:58 <pickpacket> What’s the default blitter?
12:40:36 <TrueBrain> lol, build_date is the date of the build on the CI, which is different for every OS
12:40:44 <pickpacket> It’s at least a truth that users very rarely change settings with an effect that is unknown to them
12:40:50 <TrueBrain> `"May 23 2023 19:12:43" vs "May 23 2023 19:11:03"`
12:40:56 <TrueBrain> a difference of no difference, those dates 🙂
12:41:11 * pickpacket isn’t even sure what a blitter is
12:41:42 <TrueBrain> it is clear I need to do some postprocessing on some fields, to make the correlation easier 🙂
12:41:55 <TrueBrain> `info.os.memory` for example, is just ... funny 🙂
12:42:00 <petern> It's an older term from the days when 2D graphics were common, just the process of copying graphical data from source to destination.
12:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the short version: the blitter combines the individual sprites into a coherent picture
12:42:11 <TrueBrain> `"17099714560"` vs `"17059516416"`
12:42:59 <petern> OpenTTD inefficiently does it byte by byte itself.
12:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> modern games don't have a blitter anymore, since it's all 3D stuff
12:45:29 <petern> andythenorth: How many individual sprites does Iron Horse have?
12:45:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you could vaguely put it into the area of a pixel shader
12:46:40 <petern> To do it decently with hardware acceleration you need to convert the individual sprites into a texture atlas. GPUs don't like thousands of tiny textures and texture-swapping.
12:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> treat the whole sprite cache as one texture?
12:49:38 <petern> The sprite cache isn't an atlas.
12:49:57 <petern> It's also in the opposite direction -- way too large to be a texture.
12:51:32 <petern> pickpacket: "actual ... proposals" Don't get too excited, you've been zorged.
12:54:39 <petern> It's a term of affection around here 🙂
12:56:40 <andythenorth> petern: actual realsprites, or total spritecount per the nfo way where "everything is a sprite"?
12:58:18 <andythenorth> hmm no quick count
12:58:25 <andythenorth> wonder if grfcodec can print that out
12:59:33 <TrueBrain> will andy join the 10th? 🙂
13:00:28 <Rubidium_> I would have proposed to pick some of them up on the 10th from Hoek van Holland, but that ferry's expensive
13:00:39 <andythenorth> petern: roughly 94266
13:00:52 <andythenorth> according to `grep generated/graphics generated/iron-horse.nfo | sed 's/^[0-9]*//' | grep -v ' 1 1 0 0 normal' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n > dups.txt`
13:00:54 <TrueBrain> Rubidium_: they can swim?
13:01:34 <petern> Combining 100,000 odd sprites into an efficient atlas is quite a task.
13:01:42 <Rubidium_> then they are better off swimming to Belgium (or France)
13:01:50 <TrueBrain> we will pick them up there 🙂
13:02:57 <TrueBrain> those times of those ferries at Hoek van Holland .. that is just the worst
13:03:07 <TrueBrain> leave Harwich at 0900, arrive at 1715 ..
13:03:29 <TrueBrain> only sane thing to do, yes
13:03:43 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: seriously considered it, but family diary says no
13:03:54 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: boooooooooo
13:03:56 <dP> andythenorth: grf-py says 100175 in horse 3.0.0, 40% duplicates xD
13:04:52 <TrueBrain> and damn, that is expensive ..
13:05:20 <andythenorth> the frosch script doesn't find 40% dups
13:05:26 <andythenorth> but 100175 sounds about right
13:05:35 <TrueBrain> by air is cheaper than by ferry ... weird
13:05:35 <andythenorth> there are about 20k dups
13:05:51 <dP> petern: splitting density setting is not a new idea...
13:05:51 <TrueBrain> and a lot quicker 😄
13:06:35 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so who do we need to bribe to change that?
13:07:06 <Rubidium_> kids will love train world :D
13:07:26 <andythenorth> taking my children would change the dynamic 😛
13:07:59 <andythenorth> there's GH with the details?
13:08:03 <TrueBrain> when you look up a flight, and Google Flight is like: yeah, this flight is always delayed AT LEAST 30 minutes 😛
13:09:14 <andythenorth> will Train World tickets be available at short notice? first posts suggest not
13:11:20 <TrueBrain> feels something is broken on that site, but ...
13:11:48 <andythenorth> maybe it's just group tickets that are not available
13:12:55 <TrueBrain> going by their "seats available", there will be like 10 people next weekend
13:13:45 <TrueBrain> so not sure where that info comes from, but it isn't in line with what I am looking at .. both can be wrong 😄
13:14:13 <pickpacket> andythenorth: how many sprites have you drawn?
13:14:46 <TrueBrain> just look at his history, so many things are just one-on-one from ChatGPT
13:15:32 <pickpacket> andythenorth: how did you make all the sprites for IH?
13:19:44 <LordAro> by never being more than 83% completed
13:20:55 <petern> 2010... there's probably some STL function that'll do it now 😉
13:21:41 <LordAro> petern: what are you thinking?
13:23:12 <petern> Nothing much beyond "off-loading blitting to the GPU needs a texture atlas"
13:23:33 <TrueBrain> just a "oeh, pretty bird" moment 🙂
13:28:58 <pickpacket> I meant that it’s thousands of sprites. I can’t imagine the time it must take to draw that many manually
13:32:16 <andythenorth> first grf was 2008
13:34:23 <pickpacket> I fixed up my teahouse sprite this morning. Going to release a new version of tea tea deluxe when I've tested it a bit
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13:50:42 <pickpacket> it's not just a sprite, ofc. Also set it so that nearby stations are named after the industries and re-weighted the appearance probabilities
13:53:38 <pickpacket> I considered adding train carriages for monorail and maglev too
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15:54:03 <petern> ^ That's not what I was expecting...
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16:04:33 <gnomechomsky> guys I get "unable to load g2.dat" when running the game
16:04:50 <gnomechomsky> I've tried both data options, pointing it to the folder and pointing it to the gog exe
16:05:13 <gnomechomsky> ah i need to run make g2?
16:05:33 <gnomechomsky> still doesn't work
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16:24:37 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like an error i recognize... you got something weird in your .cfg?
16:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> like a music set that isn't found?
16:28:20 <LordAro> g2.dat nothing to do with OTTD
16:38:22 <Rubidium_> well... it's all previous decade stuff
16:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> when did we switch to C++? 2007?
16:46:14 <Rubidium_> something like that
16:46:28 <LordAro> been a long time coming, this stuff
16:48:25 <Rubidium_> though C++17 isn't really that modern ;D
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17:25:57 * andythenorth looked at Eurostar to Brussels
17:26:18 <andythenorth> would be about £400 return, and I'd want to bring both my kids 😛
17:37:12 <frosch> it very much depends on the time of day, doesn't it?
17:38:59 <andythenorth> I'd do it, but going to Switzerland in the summer, and Switzerland is ¢¢¢¢¢¢¢
17:39:32 <andythenorth> I don't know what key combo gets me Swiss Francs symbol 😛
17:40:12 <andythenorth> ok maybe it's just `Fr`
17:42:01 <frosch> looks like they have a 1/2 Fr coin, instead of 50 rp
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17:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> last time i was in switzerland i asked if i could pay with €, they said yes, but they only accept bills, not coins
17:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i paid with card instead
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20:20:53 <TrueBrain> omg omg omg, IT IS HAPPENING
20:27:13 <petern> OpenGFX 14.0 coming soon!
20:30:33 <TrueBrain> I think it is called OpenGFX2 😛
20:30:53 <TrueBrain> at least, I saw that in the survey results 😄
20:31:13 <TrueBrain> at least the screens of the trees looked 10000000 times better
20:31:26 <TrueBrain> I so don't like the trees in OpenGFX .. personal opinion .. but I just don't like them
20:32:30 <petern> They are pretty nice alone, but just disappear when placed on terrain
20:33:06 <TrueBrain> the original were just more .. cartonish
20:33:09 <TrueBrain> they fit better with the game
20:33:11 <pickpacket> The game runs a lot better on my weak little computer when I hide all trees 😅
20:33:37 <TrueBrain> in general I am not a fan of a set with all kinds of tiny little details .. I like the old-style approach more 😛
20:33:56 <petern> 32bpp 4x was a mistake you say?
20:34:06 <TrueBrain> I am happy it brings joy to some
20:34:16 <TrueBrain> but personally I don't think it belongs in OpenTTD
20:34:30 <TrueBrain> I often don't even see it is OpenTTD till I see a GUI, in screenshots with 32bpp 4x 😛
20:35:07 <TrueBrain> but, luckily enough for those that enjoy 32bpp 4x, we only build the game; we don't actually play 🙂
20:35:37 <TrueBrain> and hopefully soon the issue with bandwidth will also be resolved ... would make me sleep a lot more restful 🙂
20:36:17 <TrueBrain> crashing linkgraph ..... owh boy
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20:37:28 <sittinbythefire> Once OpenGFX2 is out, can we just delete ZBase? 😛
20:37:39 <glx[d]> TrueBrain: yeah I have a similar opinion with opengfx UI icons (I can't find my way with them)
20:38:29 <TrueBrain> sittinbythefire: or "merge" it with abase, you say? 😄
20:39:06 <sittinbythefire> is there any difference between the two?
20:39:14 <TrueBrain> that question is asked a lot and often
20:39:25 <TrueBrain> and so many people download both .. and they are HUGE
20:39:36 <glx[d]> the difference is the UI, everything else is the same IIRC
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20:41:11 * Rubidium_ wonders how to get any progress on #10810
20:42:53 <petern> Hmm, is that the one I was waiting to be updated due a merge conflict... ages ago.
20:44:58 <TrueBrain> hmm .. seems Pulumi already assigned us a license, but I haven't heard anything about it yet 😛 It is just that the banner: your trial is about to end, is no longer therre 😄 Well, that is nice of them 🙂
20:45:15 <TrueBrain> Pulumi Cloud is pretty solid .. bit weird quirks here and there, but that is okay 🙂
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20:45:25 <TrueBrain> it wins from Terraform; easily 😄
20:45:37 <TrueBrain> (and most of you are now: wtf is Pulumi ... an infrastructure-as-code tool with a decent frontend :D)
20:47:42 <LordAro> i'd be tempted to remove NEWGRF_UNPRINT tbh
20:47:43 <petern> Maybe it is expired...
20:48:11 <petern> LordAro, and the czech town name generator?
20:49:17 <LordAro> improve it such that it's not needed :p
20:54:11 <JGR> It sounds like the kind of thing where you only found out that GRFs are using it after you do a release where it's removed
20:54:59 <petern> Download all NewGRFs and check how many times the appropriate thing is used 😄
20:55:33 <TrueBrain> we could scan all current and old BaNaNaS content, if someone provides me with a script to do so 🙂
20:56:39 <Rubidium_> that sounds like a lot of work to accomplish
20:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i spend a lot of time on game paused... there were often hours between autosaves
21:01:28 <TrueBrain> lol, already complaints before release \o/ That is a welcome change 🙂
21:02:06 <TrueBrain> someone (looking at one person in particular) should figure out how to make a slider UI 😛
21:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> once upon a time i was using a patchpack that had weekly autosaves (better with daylength), ever since then openttd complained that "weekly" wasn't a valid value when reading my config file :p
21:03:37 <petern> There's enough random sliders around to make that quite simple now 😉
21:04:01 <TrueBrain> yeah, I rather do almost literally anything else, sorry 😛
21:05:04 <petern> We could implement a dropdown list with every possible option.
21:05:09 <petern> 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds...
21:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i fear there are infinitely many possible options :p
21:06:01 <petern> Hmm, network_survey doesn't initialise the monospace font, so it says it's "sprite" even when it's not.
21:06:04 <JGR> What I've got is options in the dropdown that open up a query window where you can type the number in
21:06:12 <petern> Not sure if it should...
21:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> JGR: you could just have an input field that is hidden when something else is selected
21:07:31 <petern> Or we could use the slider widget we already have
21:07:44 <JGR> Eddi|zuHause: That is a lot more effort
21:08:09 <JGR> I do use that pattern in the settings window though, where it is less of a problem
21:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> JGR: but as a user, to change the value you have set, you need to re-select the dropdown option?
21:10:13 <TrueBrain> JGR: in (game) days even, lol, that is fine-grained 😄 But that is also a solution indeed 🙂
21:11:51 <TrueBrain> I btw like your async-mode; my suggestion for batch-mode did also allow a way to retrieve the actual result in-the-end, but just leaving that part out works as well for many cases, I guess 🙂
21:13:33 <TrueBrain> guess extending yours to still do that is also not that much work
21:15:08 <JGR> As far I can tell, the vast majority of the time game scripts never look at the result of commands
21:16:48 <JGR> I think it would be quite a bit a lot of work
21:17:03 <JGR> Or at least, beyond my working Squirrel knownledge
21:17:27 <TrueBrain> JGR: And I think you are right there 🙂 there were a few usecases, but much more rare
21:18:11 <TrueBrain> JGR: It needs a new type, `Promise` or something.. but your idea is already a good step forward tbh
21:18:22 <TrueBrain> Extending later is always possible
21:19:02 <andythenorth> fire-and-forget GS commands 🙂
21:19:11 <andythenorth> reduces the need to handle return values 😛
21:19:32 <frosch> UNPRINT is declared "deprecated" in nml, and was never supported by eints
21:22:17 <petern> That it exists in nml is probably enough 🙂
21:23:21 <frosch> the intention for adding it to ttdp was to modify original strings, but ottd does not support that anyway
21:25:12 <TrueBrain> Is scanning all grfs on bananas difficult? Just so we have some stats?
21:25:32 <frosch> no, we already have a classifier 🙂
21:25:47 <TrueBrain> I don't know where UNPRINT is used 😄
21:26:58 <TrueBrain> If you can point me to where it should be used, I can run it tomorrow 🙂
21:26:59 <frosch> is a patch to newgrf.py which asserts on it good enough?
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21:37:28 <TrueBrain> Will try tomorrow .. but if I find no grfs, it doesn't mean there are none
21:37:36 <TrueBrain> So I hope I find at least one 😄
21:37:53 <frosch> we removed string codes before, because they made no sense
21:38:14 <frosch> in the old days there were codes to alter the drawing position on the screen
21:38:36 <frosch> it was used in the purchase list by some newgrf, but then ottd was changed to do that use-case automatic
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21:40:34 <petern> One missing } can make for some very weird compile errors 😄
21:42:31 <petern> Hmm, logarithmic slider maybe?
21:44:08 <frosch> yeah, log makes sense there
21:44:09 <petern> (Maybe not log, but linear is a bit... meh)
21:44:34 <petern> Also log probably would be useful for volume too.
21:44:35 <frosch> is the old dropdown not good enough?
21:44:55 <petern> Well I could just add "5 minutes" or something 🙂
21:45:03 <frosch> i want 3.14 minutes autosave-interval
21:45:34 <TrueBrain> Not sure the triangle is needed for such slider btw .. just a straight line might fit better 😄
21:46:01 <petern> True but I'd need to make that an optional extra for the slider too 🙂
21:46:09 <frosch> oh, a coding challenge?
21:46:31 <petern> I think it was more of "you know how to do it"
21:46:34 <TrueBrain> And repeating 'minutes' looks weird :p
21:47:12 <petern> Yeah but not having it is also awkward.
21:47:19 <TrueBrain> More a: UI ah no aaaaaaahhhhhh *runs around naked flapping his hand above his head*
21:47:59 <TrueBrain> So, drop down with "custom" as options, like JGRPP? 😄
21:49:01 <frosch> did you have discussions with ux designers?
21:49:20 <petern> Ooh, have a dropdown, but within that dropdown have... a slider...
21:50:36 <petern> And the slider can open another dropdown
21:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> <petern> (Maybe not log, but linear is a bit... meh) <-- sqrt?
21:57:45 <petern> I suspect the answer is... undo this and just add a couple more options to the dropdown.
21:58:10 <petern> (Or indeed a query window)
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22:05:11 <TrueBrain> Too bad, I liked the slider idea 😄 but yeah ...
22:39:44 *** nielsm has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
23:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks significantly longer than i would have imagined
continue to next day ⏵
