IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-04-12
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06:55:20 <TrueBrain> another day .. how unexpected
06:56:35 <andythenorth> it's a philosophy
07:09:29 <andythenorth> so...might be nice of grf could detect a specific gs being present
07:09:45 <andythenorth> FIRS grf ought to change behaviour if FIRS gs is in the game
07:36:53 <andythenorth> I am on the wrong side of coffee
07:36:56 <andythenorth> it's on the outside of me
07:38:55 <andythenorth> 'bike factory' -> vehicles? 😛
07:45:59 <Kuhnovic> andythenorth: Technically not wrong 😛
07:51:12 <LordAro> wait, how did it get to be 8:50? i'm sure it was 8:00 a moment a go
07:51:17 * LordAro should get out of bed
08:04:13 <Kuhnovic> Getting up at 8:00 is no holiday in my book
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08:17:36 <petern> > 15 files changed, 334 deletions(-)
08:17:56 <petern> Has some noticable visual effects, oh well.
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09:01:57 <LordAro> knee feeling better. not ready for my usual mid week ride, but better
09:05:17 <andythenorth> 4 Horse engines left to draw
09:12:36 <petern> Is there a standard for web-based query filters? There's OData but that's bulky and not very intuitive.
09:14:51 <petern> No that's more API-based
09:20:52 <andythenorth> train sprites needs to be better
09:20:58 <andythenorth> windows look all wrong
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10:09:58 <MarkoMarko> Can someone explain me how I can unpack the packet or command information that the server receives? I don't know much about it. I need this for logs. (If someone is griefing so I can see it).
10:09:58 <MarkoMarko> I used to use the network-command.cpp file, which had cp->p1, cp->p2, cp->tile. (I wrote down the command name, coordinates, company number).
10:09:58 <MarkoMarko> As far as I understand, this has now been replaced by cp->data. Maybe someone can advise me how to get this information or where to look for it.
10:12:38 <andythenorth> pleasing ugly train
10:16:46 <andythenorth> alternative sprite
10:17:42 <pickpacket> andythenorth: I like the second one more
10:17:54 <andythenorth> same, but it looks too powerful
10:23:58 <petern> How is it not midday yet?
10:25:59 <EmperorJake> I like it more, it looks less like the class 70
10:26:08 <andythenorth> this might be better
10:26:40 <andythenorth> the dogbone shape is more readable
10:31:19 <FLHerne> MarkoMarko: you should probably be using the adminport methods ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_CMD_NAMES and ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_CMD_LOGGING
10:31:36 <FLHerne> will save having to patch the source
10:32:06 <andythenorth> I could improve the cab I think but eh
10:32:22 <FLHerne> or if you do need to add more info, please patch it there so that other server operators can use your work ;-)
10:33:06 <MarkoMarko> FLHerne: Thank you, I will try it.
10:36:00 <andythenorth> is it early lunch?
10:36:49 <LordAro> andythenorth: no, denied
10:39:59 <MarkoMarko> FLHerne: Thank you. I will need to learn a lot of new information to understand it all.
10:40:01 <FLHerne> hm, I should put some soup on the stove so it's ready when it is lunch
10:51:33 <MarkoMarko> FLHerne: Thank you. I already use a ready-made "script" that works through the admin port. It's time to figure it out. It will be useful for me.
10:51:40 <andythenorth> back to GS then?
10:51:48 <andythenorth> done some pixles
10:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> GS don't have pixels
11:04:14 <andythenorth> might be some things I don't understand about town growth
11:04:30 <andythenorth> Town is not growing, but growth rate is 77
11:05:21 <andythenorth> seems to be a city also
11:05:50 <andythenorth> other cities have correct growth rate
11:08:33 <andythenorth> hmm maybe the story page is just out of date
11:09:12 <andythenorth> they only update once a month
11:09:14 <dP> MarkoMarko: As I said in #9725 there is no good way to inspect the command packet anymore.
11:09:21 <andythenorth> and it takes GS up to a month to update 33 town story pages
11:09:39 <andythenorth> the story book is incredibly slow, probably because it's a command for each text element
11:10:10 <andythenorth> but very important the AI doesn't get an advantage over human players, so we *must* preserve this slowness 🙂
11:10:45 <MarkoMarko> dP: Thank you. I will definitely look into it.
11:11:40 <andythenorth> maybe I can make this faster by using a single element
11:11:51 <andythenorth> and a giant GSText with many many parameters
11:12:00 <andythenorth> such optimisation
11:12:49 <andythenorth> updating that page currently requires 13 commands
11:13:23 <andythenorth> 429 commands for 33 towns, how many game days is that?
11:28:40 <petern> Single widget, or somehow we allow batching.
11:28:53 <petern> (Either generic or specific to the story book)
11:29:57 <andythenorth> where is TB's gist
11:37:19 <andythenorth> I'd be in Batch Mode all the time 😛
11:44:31 <petern> I will simplify #10635 to exclude the town name width.
11:46:38 <petern> The resize-based-on-selection stuff needs more extensive work to behave nicely. I have ideas but not implemented yet 🙂
11:48:09 <petern> But #10641 fixes the "can't read the list" problem 🙂
11:55:06 <andythenorth> goes it add a full layout grid? 😛
11:55:57 <andythenorth> to the UI, for I don't know
11:56:17 <andythenorth> hmm we have the very helpful newgrf debugger, which can inspect values
11:56:31 <andythenorth> but GS I have been optimistically relying on story book
11:56:43 <andythenorth> but there are certain issues with that 😛
11:56:58 <andythenorth> I could really do with a way inspect towns, without patching the client to print values to stdout
11:57:12 <andythenorth> I have a town with a growth rate, but not a growth rate
11:57:17 <andythenorth> so now I'm wondering how that can be 😛
11:57:30 <petern> Oh, weather forecast has changed to heavy rain for tonight...
11:59:35 <dP> for debugging gs can just log whatever it needs to the console
11:59:53 <andythenorth> to console, to AI/GS debug?
12:00:08 <petern> If you could hook an actual debugger into it... that'd be cool 😉
12:00:15 <andythenorth> GS runs days or weeks behind the game
12:00:20 <petern> Or implement it in the game.
12:00:39 <andythenorth> /me reading CmdTownGrowthRate currently
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12:00:51 <dP> btw, if you want town growth rate use cmclient, it shows that in ui
12:01:02 <petern> Well lunch was over pretty damn quick :/
12:01:43 <andythenorth> waiting for my kids to finish making theirs
12:02:47 <andythenorth> that's the thing I need
12:02:51 <andythenorth> in this specific case
12:03:14 <andythenorth> maybe I can pick it
12:05:02 <petern> Do we list all variables or only those that are used?
12:06:36 <andythenorth> "Add setting to limit length of continuous inclined roads built by towns." yes please
12:09:48 <TallTyler> Why a setting? Pick a good default and use it, or make the town build a tunnel instead
12:10:51 <osswix> ~~Imagine allowing towns to build roads ~~
12:11:02 <TallTyler> * is mostly frustrated by the frequency of Discord channel #openttd-help posts that are answered by “find this setting and change it, the game is too configurable for its own good”
12:11:33 <andythenorth> spacebar heating though innit
12:12:05 <osswix> Configurable is good. And it's a good way to learn how to configure stuff.
12:12:27 <osswix> I think that openttd makes it super good by having a search bar.
12:14:26 <petern> But you're learning how to configure stuff that shouldn't need to be configured.
12:14:59 <osswix> Honestly; I don't think there is a shouldn't need to be configured in openttd.
12:15:12 <andythenorth> this is why the battle is lost
12:15:15 <andythenorth> spacebar heating
12:15:44 <osswix> Except for things where there is an obvious better choice; things that are an actual choice is very subjective to the player and play style.
12:17:32 <andythenorth> it's important to design your own pathfinder
12:18:22 <andythenorth> oof I'll have to delete my story page button patch first 😛
12:18:33 <dP> TallTyler: idk about JGR but I just acknowledged that ship has long sailed :p
12:19:41 <dP> also openttd is a sandbox with no clear goal of playstyle so the more configurable it is the better
12:19:52 <JGR> In general I am much more fond of putting stuff in the debug windows than vanilla is
12:20:16 <JGR> It makes developing/debugging much easier
12:20:18 <petern> I just forgot they exist as I'm not a NewGRF developer 🙂
12:20:43 <andythenorth> JGR: I think the fondness relates directly to 'how often playing the game' 😄
12:21:15 <JGR> It seems a shame to have a nice system of debug windows and then only use them for very uninteresting GRF variables
12:21:26 <andythenorth> dunno if these are straight picks, there are many JGRPP specific features?
12:21:26 <petern> I'm more like to pause the game in a debugger and view the elements directly.
12:22:18 <LordAro> if things never get backported, they're never going to get added to vanilla...
12:22:36 <JGR> andythenorth: Well yes, this is often how I develop new features
12:23:09 <petern> Well there's also this issue that people don't PR stuff because they think upstream isn't interested in it.
12:23:20 <petern> Most of the time upstream doesn't even know about it.
12:23:35 <andythenorth> about 50% of it we wouldn't want
12:23:38 <andythenorth> but the other 50%....
12:25:24 * andythenorth fetches jgrpp as remote
12:25:59 <petern> (Doing that works fine but my git graphs were always chock full :))
12:27:41 <dP> I don't upstream most of my stuff because it's just 10x the work
12:27:56 <dP> half of it spent in annoying discussions
12:28:47 <andythenorth> failed at first fence 😛
12:29:06 <TallTyler> I have a whole bookmark folder of things to upstream
12:29:44 <TallTyler> Two diagonal railtypes per tile, etc
12:30:31 <dP> andythenorth: what does that window even show?
12:30:31 <JGR> andythenorth: It's not going to be a straightforward cherry pick, because there are various changes to how the whole debug window works
12:31:29 <andythenorth> ok, I seem to have a side-quest on my side-quest 😛
12:31:57 <andythenorth> to make FIRS do what I want, I have to make a GS, now I have to make debug tools to make the GS 😛
12:33:41 <andythenorth> or I just switch to JGRPP 😛
12:33:48 <dP> all of that is shown by cmclient
12:34:57 <dP> GR-growth rate, if it with * means set by gs
12:35:13 <dP> and town zones are shown on the map
12:35:17 <petern> Very useful I'm sure but as UIs go it's pretty obtuse.
12:35:34 <petern> "annoying discussions" indeed
12:37:26 <andythenorth> so many macOS permissions needed for the unsigned binary
12:37:34 <andythenorth> can't be helped I guess
12:38:36 <andythenorth> will jgrpp build for me today?
12:41:26 <andythenorth> such libs issues, I blame Tim Cook
12:41:41 <pickpacket> I'd love to make a new HQ where the biggest version has a helipad that can actually take helicopter traffic. I guess I'd have to learn some GS stuff to pull that off
12:42:25 <pickpacket> So much I want to do with the game... so little time to do it
12:42:37 <andythenorth> you'd have to patch the game for that HQ
12:42:50 <pickpacket> not possible with GS?
12:42:55 <andythenorth> absolutely not 🙂
12:43:01 <andythenorth> GS can do very little
12:43:06 <andythenorth> there was a patch a long time ago to add heliports to grf things
12:43:13 <andythenorth> but it never completed
12:43:17 <pickpacket> meh. Well, I can scratch that off my projects list
12:43:25 <andythenorth> to do: remove to do item
12:43:36 <petern> See how oilrigs do it 🙂
12:43:52 <andythenorth> I have a grf somewhere where you can service a wind turbine with a helicopter
12:43:58 <pickpacket> petern: and patch the game?
12:44:05 <andythenorth> ancient yexo patch
12:44:23 <andythenorth> if jgrpp loads my save, it might finally be time to switch 😐
12:44:41 <andythenorth> nope, save isn't compatible
12:45:15 <petern> Well probably not patch the game, you'll (and I would!) probably give up before trying that 🙂
12:47:19 <pickpacket> petern: then what use would it be for me to look how oil rigs do it? :D :D :D
12:54:35 <JGR> andythenorth: I am a bit behind master
12:55:15 <LordAro> JGR: the more you upstream, the less work you need to do to update :p
12:55:46 <andythenorth> upstream is quite a grind 😛
12:56:08 <andythenorth> wait, what am I saying? 🙂
12:56:12 <andythenorth> upstreaming is good
12:56:21 <andythenorth> /me wonders how superlib log levels work
12:56:31 <andythenorth> seems I can have "all the output" or "none"
12:56:37 <JGR> I am only 16 commits/3 days behind
12:56:41 <petern> . /ban andythenorth Discord channel #openttd-development
12:56:50 <JGR> Upstreaming is not going to make any difference at that level
12:56:55 <andythenorth> ^^ appears to be a bool 😛
12:57:24 <JGR> The save game version has been bumped in that time though
12:58:08 <JGR> I do try to upstream stuff which is obvious
12:59:24 <andythenorth> ha I nerfed the logging debug levels I think 😛
12:59:46 <petern> Don't make it configurable, just always output debug message 😉
13:00:49 <andythenorth> and the scrollback is limited
13:01:07 <andythenorth> there is a nice breakpoint thing though
13:01:21 <petern> If we make it so that you can only log 1 message per tick, then it won't fill up so much
13:01:53 <andythenorth> it will be much more readable yes
13:05:25 <andythenorth> ok how many town growth rates are there?
13:06:32 <andythenorth> so town can have a growth rate, but not be growing it seems
13:06:46 <andythenorth> yeah no, that growth rate is 0xFF which is "none"
13:11:39 <andythenorth> /me looking what causes "TOWN_IS_GROWING" to be false
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13:17:22 <andythenorth> ok I'm setting TOWN_GROWTH_NORMAL from GS, and the town's preconditions for growth aren't met
13:17:47 <andythenorth> and growth_rate > 0 is not the precondition 😛
13:18:46 <petern> Yeah, normal means the normal growth conditions.
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13:34:12 <andythenorth> will be writing my own then 😛
13:36:37 <dP> andythenorth: you seem to be getting GROWTH_RATE_NONE though instead
13:37:20 <dP> do you have the right compat scripts for GS? I remember there being some issue with that
13:40:02 <dP> though I guess if you're writing it shouldn't matter if you have the right version requested
13:40:46 <petern> Mmm, original Civilization with GM music.
13:50:14 <andythenorth> dP: that was just because GS is slow to update the growth rate...I took the screenshot at game start where init sets it to NONE
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16:32:24 <LordAro> there does seem to be an issue with the vsync stuff *somewhere*
16:32:30 <LordAro> but thus far no one has been able to work out what
16:34:36 <petern> Not normally down to 12fps though.
16:35:05 <LordAro> that does seem a bit low
16:35:20 <LordAro> maybe their monitor is set to output at 12Hz
17:12:15 <milek7_> maybe bad opengl drivers issue?
17:12:36 <andythenorth> imagine if we had telemetry
17:16:32 <petern> God damn it, it was pissing down so I posted a message about probably cancelling tonight's ride... and it's stopped now :p
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17:26:12 <milek7_> adding d3d11 backend might solve some of those crappy opengl driver issues
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18:18:46 <dP> but if AIs don't see signs of deity they may lose faith 😅
18:19:30 <frosch> why is there so much fakenews here?
18:21:15 <petern> > BuildReplacementVehicle(old_vehs[i], (Vehicle**)&new_vehs[i], true);
18:21:22 <petern> That cast is pretty ugly 😄
18:21:35 <petern> > BuildReplacementVehicle(old_vehs[i], reinterpret_cast<Vehicle**>(&new_vehs[i]), true);
18:21:37 <petern> But that isn't much better.
18:38:45 <frosch> meh, english is so inprecise, or my understanding is so poor. I never understood the issue with 10532 🙂
18:38:59 <frosch> looking at the code is easier
18:42:25 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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18:55:02 <petern> First, we take Manhattan (distance), then we take Berlin
18:59:14 <michi_cc[d]> So much bot chatter today 🙂
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19:06:03 <TrueBrain> Lol @ 10644, that is a funny bug
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20:18:33 <dP> with how many weird mouse options openttd has 10644 is probably not the only one issue
20:26:19 <petern> Right click is very rarely used.
20:26:20 <frosch> yes, my ctrl+right click in train depot is broken with right-click close. but apparantly noone used/knew it except me :p
20:27:04 <frosch> who would expect ctrl for a tooltip :p
20:27:28 <petern> Probably just needs to return true even if it doesn't handle the right-click then
20:27:49 <petern> return _ctrl_pressed 🙂
20:28:54 <dP> there is also `gui.right_mouse_btn_emulation` on macs
20:29:10 <andythenorth> mac users have right click since forever
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20:30:12 * andythenorth uses cmd-click for map scroll though
20:30:13 <petern> Probably won't run on a mac that only has a single button?
20:30:42 <andythenorth> oh I see, it's special custom right-click emulation
20:30:50 <andythenorth> not the OS supplied ctrl+mouse
20:31:04 <andythenorth> I guess the OS doesn't pass the event to the game
20:37:03 <petern> Hmm, although that issue is probably moot at the moment
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20:46:00 <andythenorth> such don't care 🙂
20:46:18 <petern> I only find it amusing
20:49:57 <Rubidium_> I wonder how a date format is a (measurement) unit, but I guess that's some new thing I'm not aware of yet
20:50:50 <Rubidium_> though... TallTyler can put a lot of his calendar stuff under units, after all what's the unit? seconds, minutes, days? :)
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20:58:03 <TrueBrain> petern: If this is the dilemma we are facing in 2023, it will be a good year 😄
20:58:11 <TrueBrain> Tnx for linking it 🙂
20:58:50 <TrueBrain> "I want a red bikeshed" "no, it should be blue!"
20:59:07 <TrueBrain> Such first world problems to have 🙂
20:59:41 <TrueBrain> I guess: quick, while they are distracted, merge all the controversial things!
21:00:27 <TrueBrain> Mandatory telemetry?
21:02:09 <andythenorth> town debug info? 😛
21:02:12 <petern> TrueBrain: complete with user profile?
21:02:30 <petern> andythenorth: Have you cherry-picked it?
21:02:38 <andythenorth> I failed at that
21:02:44 <andythenorth> poor human skills
21:02:53 <andythenorth> I didn't ask GPT yet
21:02:58 <andythenorth> git-gpt exists yet?
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21:11:10 <LordAro> moce units under interface. done.
21:11:34 <LordAro> where units is a subcategory
21:12:24 <petern> And hope translators know the difference between a measurement unit, and unit number unit.
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21:21:40 <petern> Oh I forgot to go out to the pub.
21:30:37 <petern> That... merged even though checks are still running. What?
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21:39:44 <glx[d]> because not all checks are required
21:41:03 <glx[d]> or maybe the last mingw is not reporting properly
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21:58:06 <andythenorth> hmm, I don't really want to read OpenTTD settings directly in GS, might break between versions
21:58:33 <andythenorth> I want to respect the player's town growth speed setting somehow, but control growth triggers from GS
22:00:20 * andythenorth looks for `CountActiveStations`
22:00:56 <andythenorth> looks like I want to insert a GS hook here?
22:00:56 <andythenorth> ` if (t->fund_buildings_months == 0 && CountActiveStations(t) == 0 && !Chance16(1, 12)) return;`
22:01:31 <andythenorth> town_cmd.cpp L3524
22:02:05 <andythenorth> hmm might be a better way
22:02:37 <andythenorth> seems if I can set `TOWN_IS_GROWING` flag, that should work
22:02:47 <dP> simple cb does just that, it reads game settings and then replicates the whole growth rate calculation
22:02:49 <andythenorth> looks like L3518 conditional might do that
22:03:39 <dP> citymania server also does similar stuff but in c++
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23:03:30 <petern> > 641 files changed, 6725 insertions(+), 6792 deletions(-)
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