IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-04-07
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04:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf doe that word even mean?
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07:12:31 <andythenorth> I ameliorated coffee
07:12:39 <andythenorth> "not the correct meaning"
07:14:21 <petern> "This changes things by changing things" great description...
07:14:54 <petern> Do I ride solo in sunny but chilly weather, or wait for the group ride tomorrow... Hmm.
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07:30:37 <andythenorth> I might try the outside
07:30:44 <andythenorth> maybe a walk round the park
07:53:13 <andythenorth> lol "Yellow goods"
07:53:20 <andythenorth> never heard that before
07:53:26 <andythenorth> means bulldozers etc
08:05:55 <petern> Yeah, maybe I should just go out and be cold. Hmm.
08:18:34 <petern> LordAro, the 'or' was for the wait, rather than riding tomorrow 🙂
08:20:11 <petern> I think I'll just wait and see if it warms up. I'm so used to starting early rides I forget I can go later when it should be warmer.
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09:07:37 <FLHerne> US Coast Guard trying to interview the train crew after a train/boat collision is hilarious
09:07:47 <FLHerne> they seem confused about the nature of trains
09:10:25 <FLHerne> "Q: So you guys got all the -- you know, head lamps and spotlights, or whatever, on the front of the locomotive? Are they supposed to be pointed at any specific location? Where are they supposed to be?"
09:10:48 <FLHerne> "Straight ahead." "Always just straight ahead?" "Yeah, we can't move them."
09:11:16 <FLHerne> "And what part do the two of you guys play in the steering of the vessel? Just because we don't have --" "You just sit there. There's no way to steer it." "Okay. So --" "It goes where the tracks go."
09:11:57 <FLHerne> "Can you talk to them? Do you have radar on the train that indicates where the -- where the vessel traffic is?"
09:45:12 <andythenorth> I disagree with that analysis
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10:23:39 <andythenorth> "elastomeric products" or "rubber products"?
10:24:00 <andythenorth> gaskets, hoses, seals, mats, suspension parts
11:02:03 <andythenorth> or "Elastomeric Products"
11:02:08 <petern> Is that a new Minecraft update?
11:02:51 <petern> Also it's possibly food time.
11:02:53 <andythenorth> still only 63 cargos in Steeltown, 1 spare
11:06:06 <petern> That's for regearing right?
11:06:48 <andythenorth> isn't Tea added via variants now?
11:06:57 <andythenorth> when are we doing Cargo Variants?
11:07:03 <andythenorth> like...Tea is a subset of Coffee
11:16:24 <petern> cargo subtypes you say?
11:18:05 <andythenorth> probably a silly idea
11:18:18 <andythenorth> but then you could refit things like vehicles
11:18:22 <andythenorth> and also industries
11:18:29 <andythenorth> refit industry from coffee to tea
11:25:09 <andythenorth> meh, Steeltown pretty much includes everything, except washing machines
11:25:16 <andythenorth> I think strictly it does include kitchen sinks
11:25:49 <andythenorth> but not mangel-wurzels
11:26:15 <andythenorth> adding an appliance factory messes up the cargo flow
11:33:08 <andythenorth> and the cargoflow is so tidy right now 😛
11:33:17 <andythenorth> only just fits my screen
11:33:51 <andythenorth> I have removed about half the edges
11:34:04 <andythenorth> some cargos wormhole and don't have flow lines on the chart
11:53:49 <TrueBrain> hmm, looking into how I can make it easier to maintain all our webservices .. as this production/staging never did what I was hoping it would .. kinda tempted to auto-deploy "main" to production, and make PRs previewable by default
11:53:58 <TrueBrain> not all that difficult, but it brings me to a weird realisation
11:54:25 <TrueBrain> for your own software it is fine that "main" deploys to production, when you do sufficient tests on PRs etc
11:54:35 <TrueBrain> but if you use other software, you want them to make releases, so you can adopt them
11:54:46 <TrueBrain> for TrueWiki that is annoying, as it is both 😛
11:59:44 <TallTyler> andythenorth: Bar and Section Mill and Wire Rod Mill have a lot of crossover, could possible be combined 🤔
12:04:53 <andythenorth> TallTyler: Roleplay 😛 Also 6 output cargos would be quite evil
12:18:07 <petern> andythenorth: But aren't up to 16 allowed?
12:20:46 <petern> Hmm, might be bike ride time now, I've done the first lawn mow of the year which took all morning...
12:20:55 <petern> (Well, other than making PRs...)
12:28:09 <andythenorth> I made a PR once
12:32:27 <petern> That proved contraversial
12:48:43 <TrueBrain> `This scheduled workflow is disabled because there hasn't been activity in this repository for at least 60 days. Enable this workflow to resume scheduled runs. `
12:48:45 <TrueBrain> I pressed the button again
12:49:05 <andythenorth> shame we can't schedule something to press the button
12:49:16 <andythenorth> can you have a workflow that presses the button every 59 days?
12:49:19 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't be surprised if you actually can 😛
12:49:28 <TrueBrain> no, the button appears only after 60 days
12:49:42 <TrueBrain> so you need another workflow that starts a day after the first
12:49:58 <glx[d]> ah nightlies were down ?
12:50:11 <TrueBrain> mostly I noticed the last commit was 5 days ago
12:52:13 <glx[d]> we need a workflow to press the nightly/eints buttons, and nightly/eints to press the other workflow button
12:55:16 <glx[d]> oh we could also disable/enable with REST API
12:55:49 <TrueBrain> honestly, we should clean up the whole CI infra to the modern way of doing all this, and remove the workflow repo 🙂
12:56:03 <TrueBrain> so many things got added since the creation of that repo, that is really isn't needed anymore
12:56:29 <andythenorth> can I use 'etc' in a cargo name?
12:56:48 <andythenorth> the rubber products include suspension bushings 😛
12:57:58 <glx[d]> yeah nightly itself could be scheduled inside openttd repo
12:58:32 <TrueBrain> the idea once was that we had one place where all automation was, as back then it wasn't really clear what way things would go
12:58:41 <TrueBrain> but that is now pretty clear 😄
12:58:53 <TrueBrain> we also used to care that eints commit was done before the nightly
12:58:58 <TrueBrain> but these days that is also much less relevant
12:59:00 <glx[d]> forks might be an issue
12:59:16 <TrueBrain> schedules are disabled on forks by default these days, I believe
13:01:01 <TrueBrain> `When a public repository is forked, scheduled workflows are disabled by default`
13:27:05 <glx[d]> VS annoyingly resetting windows disposition is annoying
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15:17:53 <EmperorJake> andythenorth: AXIS has "rubber parts" but that includes tyres as well
15:18:20 <EmperorJake> I think it would work as a separate cargo from tyres though
16:00:55 <glx[d]> not hidden, it's in the tooltip
16:02:00 <glx[d]> and it's probably a very rare use case, so it should be fine to use ctrl for that
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17:07:04 <andythenorth> EmperorJake: we need descriptive text for cargos 😛
17:07:24 <andythenorth> hover over tooltip? 😛
17:13:33 <andythenorth> I am not trolling actually
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18:28:06 <FLHerne> even by the standards of daylength proposals that one didn't last long :p
18:28:48 <TallTyler> Yeah, it's the next iteration
18:29:03 <TallTyler> I wanted to start the conversation over without the hyperbole
18:29:15 <TallTyler> Economy scaling PR coming within 10 minutes or so
18:31:28 <TrueBrain> I have a request TallTyler , and I am not sure yet if it is a fair request or not .. but I would be tempted to do it myself, so I guess it is .. 😛 Would it be an idea to split up your PR even further?
18:31:37 <TrueBrain> it is really hard to review now, as there are several things interweaved
18:31:55 <TrueBrain> and if I read this correctly, there are several distinct things in the PR
18:32:06 <TrueBrain> like for example splitting economy and calander, without introducing the "real time" part
18:36:11 <TallTyler> It's possible, but it would be more like "PR Part 1" and "PR Part 2" which may not be helpful. It's possible to split them such that Part 1 builds by itself, but it would just be codechanges to enable Part 2.
18:36:11 <TallTyler> I guess the full split would be three parts:
18:36:11 <TallTyler> 1. Split economy date from calendar date
18:36:11 <TallTyler> 2. Add real-time display mode
18:36:11 <TallTyler> 3. Add a setting to control calendar speed
18:36:33 <TallTyler> Right now those three parts are split into separate commits, but if you would prefer separate PRs I could do that
18:36:33 <TrueBrain> yeah, and maybe before that a PR which does a bunch of those fixes you found
18:37:29 <TrueBrain> I dunno .. I always like many small PRs over one big, but I know not everyone thinks the same about that 😛
18:37:39 <TrueBrain> it is mostly because I can do that rather quickly, splitting up a PR 🙂
18:38:03 <TrueBrain> but there are some really good refactors / fixes hiding in that PR now
18:39:08 <TrueBrain> like `draw_dates` vs `month != 0xFF` is just better
18:39:19 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:39:33 <TrueBrain> millisecond-per-tick should be its own PR (it is already, not?)
18:39:47 <TallTyler> It's an issue by Peter
18:40:03 <TrueBrain> I mostly approach these things from another angle: what if we merge it, and we don't like the real-time stuff of the PR .. all we have left, is revert the full PR.
18:40:18 <TrueBrain> I think it would be better if we have smaller PRs that are just objectively better for the code-base, and have a small PR that is subjective 😛
18:40:50 <TallTyler> I see what you mean, but only a few of the refactors can actually stand alone
18:41:18 <TallTyler> To me, the calendar/economy date split is only a good idea if we absolutely need it to do something cool
18:41:24 <TallTyler> It's sort of a pain otherwise
18:41:47 <TrueBrain> I do agree we need to agree that this, or somewhere here, should be the endgoal
18:41:49 <TallTyler> And changing calendar progression speed only works with real-time units, otherwise recordkeeping gets all sorts of strange
18:42:02 <TrueBrain> but we did it a lot in the past, to make code changes nobody saw, to prepare for another upcoming feature
18:42:42 <TallTyler> I am preparing a separate PR with my proposed solution to the other usecase of daylength, which is economy scaling 🙂
18:43:05 <TallTyler> As far as the PR you've already seen, that's about as minimal as I can make it (except for the refactors)
18:44:22 <TrueBrain> let me phrase it in yet another way: parts of your PR are now a refactor, where I have to read `_date` -> `_economy_date`, and parts are actual changes .. it is really hard to see the trees in the forest here 😛
18:44:57 <TallTyler> Are you working commit-by-commit or looking at the whole diff? I definitely wouldn't recommend the latter 😛
18:45:31 <TallTyler> There's a reason it's 32 commits, to help reviewers understand what's being changed in each step 🙂
18:45:48 <TrueBrain> yeah, but that also tells me it can be smaller PRs, and still carry the same vibe 🙂
18:49:17 <TallTyler> Okay, so my breakup plan would be:
18:49:17 <TallTyler> 1. Codechange refactors
18:49:17 <TallTyler> 2. Split dates into calendar and economy dates
18:49:17 <TallTyler> 3. Add optional real-time mode
18:49:17 <TallTyler> 4. Add ability to control calendar speed
18:49:19 <TallTyler> We just need some sort of conclusion that these changes are actually desired, because each PR depends on the previous one and 2 and 3 are huge changes for little benefit, if we don't do 4
18:49:28 <TrueBrain> for example the change in toolbar_gui.cpp .. that feels kinda random, but hard to figure out now if it is .. (sorry, also processing your PR while talking :P)
18:50:05 <TrueBrain> well, I think 3 on its own is already a nice feature, but I agree; we need consensus this is the way to go 🙂
18:50:54 <TrueBrain> and this is what I like about your approach .. 1 and 2 don't change the game at all
18:51:18 <TrueBrain> 3 is now a bit intrusive in the code; maybe we can make that a tiny bit tidyer, that we don't need this many if-statements to make it happen
18:51:25 <TrueBrain> and 4 would be a small step from there ..
18:51:34 <TrueBrain> I always like the iterative path 😄
18:52:06 <TallTyler> I appreciate the help with this, it's a huge project and trying to keep it all straight in my head is a lot sometimes 🙂
18:52:24 <TrueBrain> I fully understand that 🙂 That is also why I am looking for the best way to get this in 😛
18:53:08 <TallTyler> Well then, I'll work on separating out the refactors while we see if we can some consensus about the rest of the approach
18:53:47 <TrueBrain> if you need help, I really don't mind doing this kind of stuff
18:54:00 <TrueBrain> `int days_in_year = (_settings_game.economy.use_realtime_units ? DAYS_IN_ECONOMY_YEAR : DAYS_IN_LEAP_YEAR);` <- this statement exists one too many times in your PR 😄
18:55:08 <TallTyler> This is like the third or fourth iteration of this project. Some code was written months ago and just cherry-picked into each iteration 🙂
18:55:12 <TrueBrain> 75+ usages of `use_realtime_units` .. curious if we can reduce that number, as that is a pretty big surface for a setting 😄 But not sure it is possible ..
18:56:00 <TallTyler> Maybe with a GetRealtimeMode() getter?
18:56:19 <TallTyler> It's a thin layer of abstraction, but it's something
18:56:24 <TrueBrain> that is just hiding it 😛 I was more wondering iwe need that many exceptions, or if we can abstract a bit more
18:56:41 <TrueBrain> there is some repetition, so there are some gains there
18:56:48 <TrueBrain> but the UI is tricky .. guess that is just impossible to avoid
18:57:37 <TallTyler> I forget who suggested it now, but the `{RTS month minute}` control code has been super useful since the last iteration
18:58:56 <TrueBrain> guess it will have to be added to eints too, but that is a battle for another day
18:59:34 <TallTyler> Yep, that and the network protocol additions
19:00:22 <TrueBrain> hmm, so `{RTS}` only works for words, not for units .. that is a shame
19:00:29 <TrueBrain> but I guess adding `{G}` in `{RTS}` becomes bananas 😄
19:00:46 <TallTyler> There are unit conversions for that instead
19:00:52 <petern> Gah, my PC froze again 😦
19:01:00 <TrueBrain> yeah, made me wonder if those are needed; but they are 😛
19:01:00 <TallTyler> {UNITS_DAYS_TO_SECONDS} and the like
19:01:13 <TrueBrain> stupid languages with there weird cases for numbers
19:01:21 <TallTyler> Yes, because some actually do math since the numbers are different
19:01:25 <TrueBrain> why can't we just have a simple system, like "days", no matter how many
19:02:28 <TrueBrain> right, after reading it a few times over, and besides my earlier comment, I really like the approach you took here. It has no influence on people that don't care about this stuff, and it creates enough room to go in any other direction if we find out we should go a bit more left or right
19:02:47 <TrueBrain> good improvement on the last PR too 🙂
19:05:00 <TrueBrain> yeah, I think it really is an improvement that economy and calendar can still run in sync now; and optional you can pick it doesn't .. also make sense to make that a newgame setting
19:13:01 <TrueBrain> for history, wrote in the PR what we just talked about 🙂
19:13:13 <TallTyler> ^^ (just fixing the trailing whitespace that caused it to fail commit checker)
19:13:33 <TallTyler> Thanks again for your help 😄
19:14:13 <TrueBrain> yeah, no problem; tnx for putting in all this effort 😄
19:14:44 <TrueBrain> and again, let me know if you want some help with actual coding 😛 Otherwise I might continue my investigation in adding some more threaded things in OpenTTD .. not sure that is really better for the code 😄
19:15:42 <TallTyler> I would love to take you up on your offer to reduce calls to the realtime setting
19:15:57 <TallTyler> Besides that, I'll get started and let you know if I run into anything
19:16:44 <TrueBrain> I will give it some brain-cycles tomorrow 🙂
19:18:11 <andythenorth> wait, no that's wrong
19:18:11 <TallTyler> Okay, time for a walk to get some fresh air
19:18:19 <andythenorth> I should go for a walk
19:40:10 <petern> TrueBrain: My issue for that did get zorged 😉
19:40:32 <TrueBrain> there is a very simple issue with that ... total ignore
19:41:34 <TrueBrain> I really wonder if anyone would notice if we would just hide such change 😛
19:44:44 <andythenorth> I am -1 to it, but as the other two people who are -1 are dicks
19:44:51 <andythenorth> I am going to vote in favour of it
19:45:31 <TrueBrain> I never understood the 30ms, and it is annoying as fuck on so many levels ...
19:45:50 <andythenorth> this change will make my engines appear even faster?
19:46:03 <andythenorth> maybe I just adjust grfs to have 13% longer between vehicle generations 😛
19:46:06 <TrueBrain> but all those (somewhat silly) arguments are made invalid by 2TallTyler's work anyway 😉
19:56:20 <andythenorth> it will mess with my GS timings 😛
19:56:52 <nielsm> "Now faster than ever"
19:57:17 <TrueBrain> your trains never arrived so quickly on their destination!
19:57:34 <andythenorth> hmm, how can I open a GS story page from industry window?
19:57:54 <andythenorth> I guess I do same as for towns
20:01:36 <andythenorth> hmm Industry Variants?
20:01:51 <andythenorth> like an industry, but you can change what type it is 😛
20:10:55 <jfs-> TallTyler: that was my suggestion too... tbh I'm kind of sad I've mostly been "ideas guy" (and "silly comments guy") for a long while now but there's just too many other things competing for my time
20:11:25 <jfs-> but I'm very happy to see my idea for "real time" getting implemented for real
20:12:06 <TrueBrain> leave a comment in his PR if you like about your opinion of the direction 🙂
20:12:14 <TrueBrain> would be appreciated 🙂
20:13:56 <jfs-> I think I mentioned this too when I first aired the idea, but it's largely inspired by how Transport Fever 2 does things, except TF2 keeps displaying all the economy things in world calendar time and things get really weird in the statistics windows etc then, which led me on to the idea of simply presenting things in wall clock units instead
20:14:24 <TrueBrain> as these things get easier lost on Discord / IRC than in the PRs related 🙂
20:28:58 <andythenorth> petern: are yellow diggers "vehicles"?
20:29:05 <andythenorth> hmm goes it subtypes?
20:30:12 <petern> Heh, no, just a ground sprite.
20:30:39 <petern> I guess that's missing from NRT...
20:30:53 <petern> I need to finish off that roadside override change too.
20:37:11 <jfs-> hmm I was testing it out in the emscripten deployment, and it froze completely during the first autosave, I couldn't even open the browser console
20:41:32 <andythenorth> GPT says "tracked machines" can be counted as vehicles
20:41:44 <andythenorth> bulldozers, excavators, tracked farm tractors etc
20:41:51 <TallTyler> I think autosave on emscription is totally broken, it crashes for me every time no matter what PR I'm trying
20:45:31 <Rubidium_> yup-ish. Very small map do not crash IIRC
20:46:12 <glx[d]> debugging emscripten is very hard
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20:48:48 <Kuhnovic> Manual saving also crashes the game, it's not just the autosave mechanism
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21:22:43 <petern> Rage quitting Commander Keen...
21:31:43 <petern> CRT-style shader in OpenTTD then?
21:32:08 <TallTyler> Let me guess, you have a patch for that? 😛
21:32:55 <JGR> Still looks better than all the mobile phone with dirty lenses screenshots on reddit 😛
21:33:39 <petern> 14th May in OpenTTD, June in TTD. And OpenTTD started first...
21:34:14 <petern> Watching it play the "advanced" rail tutorial/
21:35:31 <petern> Never seen green buttons like that in OpenTTD.
21:35:46 <LordAro> did it click on the news window yet?
21:36:19 <TallTyler> Ooh, a new colour to throw into the mix 🙂
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22:17:34 <TrueBrain> TallTyler: not to be a nag .. but the fact your description already lists 3 things, why not 3 PRs? 🙂 It might just be my style, but for me it is so little effort to make a few small PRs 🙂
22:20:18 <TrueBrain> (as an added bonus, also means you don't have to use these kind of PR titles, but allows you to actual describe what the PR is doing in the title :D)
22:29:17 <petern> #10607 is short and to the point tho 😉
22:29:32 <TrueBrain> yes, that is excellent 😄
22:37:43 <TallTyler> I’ll split it further tomorrow 🙂
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continue to next day ⏵
