IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-03-10
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07:12:56 <andythenorth> hmm wonder why more people don't write GS
07:13:09 <andythenorth> compared to grf, it doesn't require installing anything
07:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not convinced installing is the main barrier to this :p
08:11:20 <andythenorth> GS should be extended to modify grfs
08:11:36 <andythenorth> lots of discord is people trying to modify existing grfs
08:11:42 <andythenorth> but the tool chain is too hard
08:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> by toolchain you mean "grfcodec -d" and "grfcodec -e" or github?
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08:24:40 <andythenorth> and then the grf spec
08:25:23 <andythenorth> end yes decompile->compile would be closer to what is wanted
08:25:32 <andythenorth> but nfo isn't usable by this audience
08:25:47 <andythenorth> nor is compiling any grf that uses a CPP or python compile with make
08:26:05 <andythenorth> so perhaps GS could do it
08:30:20 <pickpacket> Uhm. It looks like my gf might be hooked on the game now 😂
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09:33:15 <petern> Failed the 'test' already.
10:17:19 <pickpacket> petern: what would be a successful outcome? 🤪
11:11:08 <Xarick> the enforcement is there
11:18:16 <Xarick> the forced enforcement check that is
11:19:19 <Xarick> it's forcing a criteria that does not fit all cases
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11:30:26 <glx[d]> No it's not, yo removed Enforce line
11:31:07 <Rubidium> ... which happens in a function that doesn't support all cases. Coindicentally it's the first function that does that
11:34:53 <glx[d]> Since both are allowed you need to enforce both, even if deity as additional restrictions
11:45:54 <Kot> I just had an idea, why don't we get graphs for vehicle profits etc?
11:46:11 <Kot> Getting a number for a month etc is cool, but a graph would be great to see if its been constant or decreasing/increasing
12:02:04 <pickpacket> I'd love more data in general. See the financials from the start of the company (not just the current and two previous years), income per cargo type, financial history of vehicles, etc
12:12:07 <Xarick> it's not detecting my enforcements
12:13:54 <Xarick> ` if (group_id == GROUP_DEFAULT || group_id == GROUP_ALL) {
12:13:54 <Xarick> EnforceCompanyModeValid(-1);
12:13:54 <Xarick> EnforceDeityOrCompanyModeValid(-1);
12:29:09 <petern> Okay, C#. So I have BaseType, and then TypeA : BaseType, which is simple enough to get back to, but I also have TypeB<OtherType> : BaseType. Is it actually possible to get back to TypeB<T> from BaseType... I'm thinking I might just have to not use generics...
12:31:26 <petern> I get paid for this shit, I should know what I'm doing really 😄
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12:45:43 <C00KIEMONSTRR1> City population growth being boosted by 10÷ when goods taken to the city
12:48:03 <dP> Kot: because that's quite a lot of useless data to keep around
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12:55:43 <Kot> I guess you’re right there
13:01:50 <dP> actually, would be a good task for gamescript if only it didn't suck so much
13:01:58 <dP> who wants the charts can pay the price
13:04:07 <dP> though I guess with insta execution or some kind of batching gs api for charts would be possible
13:04:14 <dP> not particularly good but viable
13:15:40 <kamnet> andythenorth: That's why there is no YAGL. Get in, make change, get out.
13:17:33 <Xarick> horray, didn't complain this time!
13:18:05 <Xarick> it's partially redundant now, but still okay
13:41:35 <kamnet> Has anybody thought that there should be a link to the wiki from the Main Menu?
13:45:01 <Xarick> i need to resolve conflicts, remove one parameter for the non-conflicts, then push next commit, fix new conflicts, re-add the parameter
14:10:19 <petern> kamnet: To quickly tell them how to create badly designed rail junctions which they'll try to copy as is?
14:11:26 <andythenorth> can't we just have a json templating system anyway?
14:11:31 <andythenorth> 'download this junction'
14:11:43 <andythenorth> GS can build your junctions from the story book
14:11:53 <andythenorth> it has a 'click this tile' tool
14:11:59 <andythenorth> and each junction could have a page
14:12:03 <andythenorth> I might make it, as a troll?
14:12:25 <andythenorth> I mean...it will make it slowly, and when you click the button it might not be handled for 1-2 seconds
14:12:53 <JGR> There are various copy/paste and blueprint patches flooding around
14:22:41 <andythenorth> I think GS really can do it
14:22:46 <andythenorth> just horrifically
14:30:23 <andythenorth> storybook -> pick tile A, pick tile B, use as vertexes for a rect
14:30:39 <andythenorth> -> walk the tiles, copying all the tile contents
14:31:02 <andythenorth> storybook -> pick a tile as a vertex to paste onto
14:33:14 <petern> Ancient issue, presumably someone will fix it in minutes now.
14:34:03 <andythenorth> who is the maintainer? 😛
14:34:19 <petern> (Something is different with the sprite size too, as the row height is taller, but that's probably not a problem.)
14:34:29 <andythenorth> what was that joke from? Was it poker playing?
15:14:56 <glx[d]> you could transfer the issue directly
15:39:01 <Xarick> i can't show/hide the widget properly
15:39:50 <petern> glx[d]: I can't, apparently.
15:40:07 <LordAro> is it an admin only thing?
15:41:10 <petern> I can only transfer to "team" or "website".
15:43:28 <glx[d]> ah maybe depends on write access
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15:44:45 <glx[d]> seems so, as you are member of only this team it seems
16:05:52 <Xarick> the black bar at the bottom
16:09:01 <Xarick> if I shade and unshade, it fixes itself
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16:19:24 <Xarick> EnforceCompanyModeValid_Void(); does not exist
16:42:21 <andythenorth> GSIndustryType.SetFundCost() then
16:42:42 <andythenorth> per someone's suggestion in the other channel: industries could be progressively more expensive as you fund more
16:49:47 <dP> andythenorth: There are so many issues with GS interfering with newgrfs that I think it's way more realistic to allow better extending newgrfs with other newgrfs. Just needs a few relatively minor additions:
16:49:47 <dP> - Extend engine_override to all features
16:49:48 <dP> - Allow overriding individual callbacks and properties in cb36
16:49:48 <dP> - Allow referencing sprites from other newgrfs
16:50:38 <dP> as much as I would like to be able change everything without stupid addon newgrfs 😅
16:51:23 <andythenorth> I agree with all of the above
16:51:29 <andythenorth> I just think GS is a more lolz way to do it
16:51:37 <andythenorth> open story book, pick a train
16:51:51 <andythenorth> it won't actually be good
16:52:39 <dP> that kind of lolz I totally dig 😆
16:57:29 <andythenorth> I never looked who added the buttons to the story book
16:57:32 <andythenorth> but I love that they did
17:00:34 <dP> what I'm really missing in openttd ui is hyperlinks though
17:00:46 <dP> buttons kinda do that but not in a usable way imo
17:02:45 <nielsm> hyperlinks, like within the storybook? or to websites?
17:03:25 <dP> to other ui elements in the game, stuff like thiss
17:23:18 <Brickblock1> Referencing sprites from other grfs would be e
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17:29:59 <Jayx20> dP: Yeah specifically I thought if there was engine_override there might be industry_override. I think it would be useful to create configuration mods that just add on to existing industry mods
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17:46:08 <andythenorth> dP: so like the 'jump to town' that GS goal text can do when town name is clicked, but arbitrary?
17:46:31 <andythenorth> I really want to jump from industry and town windows to specific story book pages
17:50:00 <dP> and probably more clear that it's clickable
17:50:15 <dP> people are used to __hyperlinks__
17:50:38 <andythenorth> how could we do it?
17:50:48 <andythenorth> create a GSWindowTarget class?
17:50:53 <andythenorth> then pass it to a text string code?
17:51:09 <andythenorth> there is a bit of UI stuff already to open windows
17:51:22 <dP> not sure about target class but will have to use string codes for sure
17:53:29 <andythenorth> ok so a bunch of windows seemed to be named as constants
17:53:46 <andythenorth> story pages are arbitrary, but could be targeted by name
17:54:26 <andythenorth> GSStoryPage.Show() exists
17:56:14 <andythenorth> 1. add onclick handler to arbitrary text, with a string code and arbitrary GS event handler?
17:56:14 <andythenorth> 2. add a string code, and a dedicated (not GS) event handler that only opens windows? (and is faster than bubbling events to GS)
17:56:14 <andythenorth> 3. something else?
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18:32:58 <glx[d]> GSWindow content is only valid for a given version, it may change in next version without notice in changelog
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18:34:51 <andythenorth> interesting point
18:38:24 <glx[d]> API version is not enough
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18:58:20 <andythenorth> dP: do a patch for clickable texts, I'll write some test cases 😛
19:09:04 <andythenorth> would it be a GS event bubble though?
19:09:11 <andythenorth> or could we make it actually responsive?
19:10:55 <dP> chose link type like town, story page, goals or gs event
19:11:22 <dP> though can't think of good usecase for gs event yet xD
19:11:30 <dP> but not hard to add either
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19:26:46 <dP> well, there is a bit of a problem with reusing ids
19:27:06 <dP> but I'd say if gs uses link like that it's supposed to know what it is doing :p
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19:54:38 <andythenorth> means grfs could have instructions in storybook
19:54:44 <andythenorth> for all those detailed train grfs
19:54:50 <andythenorth> bundle a GS with them
19:55:01 <andythenorth> then link from vehicle details window
19:59:04 <Brickblock1> But no one reads those
20:25:28 <Xarick> I can't attach image files on the forums, getting an http error
20:25:53 <andythenorth> uuf ok, so I do need to do grf<->GS comms for industries
20:26:36 <TrueBrain> hmm .. time to classify scenarios
20:26:42 <TrueBrain> but .. some scenarios can't be read by our reader ..
20:26:52 <TrueBrain> guess they are old uploads before we had a bit more strict restrictions
20:27:00 <andythenorth> send them home with no sweets
20:27:16 <andythenorth> classify them as 'legacy'?
20:27:46 <TrueBrain> file from 2010 .. yeah, so that was way before
20:27:51 <TrueBrain> curious if they are actually valid or not
20:30:07 <TrueBrain> no, it doesn't even want to load in-game .. lol
20:30:36 <TrueBrain> but we should still read it just fine ..
20:31:22 <TrueBrain> owh, WMAP chunk .. that sounds like something we don't actually support 😛
20:34:08 <TrueBrain> no, we read that fine .. it is a new chunk-type that is in this scenario .. let's find out what that is about
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20:38:05 <TrueBrain> guess that means you currently cannot upload any JGRPP scenario with that flag 😛
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20:44:56 <TrueBrain> okay, one mystery solved .. up to the next!
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20:47:54 <TrueBrain> there is just junk at the end of the file .. lol. A normal regular OpenTTD savegame ..
20:48:47 <TrueBrain> 131070 bytes ... odd number
20:48:51 <TrueBrain> didn't I investigate this before? 😛
20:49:08 <TrueBrain> frosch: does your brain trigger when I say some scenarios have junk at the end of their file?
20:49:22 <TrueBrain> I know it is junk, as nobody counts it towards the md5sum
20:50:31 <TrueBrain> owh, that is a lie .. reading it or not, the md5sum stays the same .. hmm
20:51:18 <frosch> no, i have no such memories
20:51:32 <frosch> sounds like something rubidium would have fixed
20:51:44 <TrueBrain> might have been a bug in OpenTTD or something, for sure
20:53:02 <frosch> found it: (svn r20090) -Fix: savegames would (very likely) end with 128 KiB worth of useless zeros
20:53:21 <frosch> and it was fixed by rubidium 🙂
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20:55:24 <frosch> speaking of scenarios: there are a lot of scenarios which were uploaded with different combination of newgrf, specifically industry sets
20:55:48 <frosch> i wonder whether filtering on dependencies would make sense
20:55:55 <frosch> or rather, how to do it
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20:56:49 <TrueBrain> ideally a scenario lists their dependency as normal
20:56:59 <TrueBrain> but we don't show that information in a useful way atm, ofc
20:57:27 <TrueBrain> okay, I can now read all scenarios except for one .. so that is promising 😄
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20:57:52 <TrueBrain> no .. valid savegame, just we never see the map-size
20:58:12 <TrueBrain> which is interesting 😄
20:58:34 <frosch> sounds like something for your memory :p
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21:02:48 <TrueBrain> ah, 6 versions were uploaded; the first is the one that is weird 😛
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21:08:04 <TrueBrain> frosch: btw, biggest "issue" would be if one of the NewGRFs is not on BaNaNaS
21:09:08 <frosch> yes, that would be a nice thing to detect
21:09:53 <frosch> but the usecase i had in mind was: search for scenario using firs steeltown
21:09:58 <TrueBrain> wauw, this scenario really doesn't have a MAPS .. how .. just .. how?!
21:10:06 <frosch> "steeltown" specifically is probably impossible to detect
21:10:21 <frosch> but "firs 1.23" would be possible
21:10:34 <TrueBrain> given the author filled in the dependency correctly, that is just an UI matter
21:10:44 <TrueBrain> but I doubt most authors filled it in correctly, honestly .. but something we can detect 🙂
21:11:13 <frosch> doesn't the reader already extract used newgrf and scripts?
21:11:40 <frosch> or did i only dream about that? :p
21:11:51 <TrueBrain> not sure we ever tested it actually is correct
21:12:32 <frosch> the reader probably still uses the old savegame format, before you added the table headers
21:13:34 <andythenorth> read the grf action 14 to find steeltown
21:13:38 <andythenorth> "what could go wrong"
21:14:53 <TrueBrain> seems we could auto-fill (and enforce) NewGRFs as dependencies
21:15:01 <TrueBrain> (and possibly AIs / GSes)
21:15:20 <frosch> i think AI/GS dependencies are still broken
21:15:44 <frosch> they are loaded by name, not by uniqueid
21:15:55 <TrueBrain> wouldn't surprise me 😛
21:16:08 <frosch> there is a huge todo list on the wiki, written by zuu, so ancient 🙂
21:16:28 <TrueBrain> okay ... so I can now read all Scenarios
21:16:34 <TrueBrain> next step ... make a histogram .. owh boy
21:16:36 <andythenorth> when we package grf and GS together, we can fix that 😛
21:16:37 <TrueBrain> do I really want to do that 😛
21:16:54 <TrueBrain> I kinda really do .. but that might be tricky
21:17:02 <frosch> don't you already have the histogram stuff for heightmaps?
21:17:09 <TrueBrain> yeah, but heightmaps are easy
21:17:17 <TrueBrain> now I need to actually read/parse one of the MAPS chunks ..
21:17:31 <TrueBrain> I am guessing ... `MAPH`
21:17:44 <frosch> i guess height was moved only once, when changing from 16 to 256 height levels
21:17:59 <TrueBrain> similar, but different
21:18:36 <frosch> too bad, andy did not implement jsonmap or xmlmap
21:18:52 <TrueBrain> neither a new UI for BaNaNaS ... all he talks about is GS here, GS there 😛
21:19:27 <TrueBrain> should I reject scenarios without MAPS? It just makes no sense 😛
21:19:32 <frosch> i think i already have a mental filter for GS stuff
21:19:37 <frosch> it's all just complainypants
21:19:40 <andythenorth> xmlmap sounds good
21:20:25 <frosch> TrueBrain: sure, we also reject uploading ttdp savegames 🙂
21:20:34 <TrueBrain> ` ERROR: error while loading file: Scenario is missing essential chunks (MAPS).`
21:20:37 <TrueBrain> there .. done with that issue 😛
21:21:44 <frosch> too explicit, it should say "Upload rejected (profanity filter)"
21:25:37 <Rubidium> frosch: if you got time, do you think it's worth it to fix #10514? Or is it going to hurt a whole lot with NewGRFs?
21:26:14 <TrueBrain> oof, parsing the histogram is not without penalty .. owh well
21:26:53 <TrueBrain> hmmm .. another issue, I guess .. I need to know the scaling of the height value
21:27:07 <TrueBrain> I guess in a setting?
21:29:54 <frosch> rubidium: i don't think newgrf have access to partial z of slopes
21:30:01 <frosch> non-vehicles do not know about partial-z at all
21:30:06 <frosch> vehicles do not know about slopes
21:30:49 <frosch> some vehicle sets use the Z-difference between following vehicles, to draw inclined sprites
21:32:37 <frosch> not sure whether i have the video/grf online somewhere
21:35:07 <TrueBrain> lol, seems someone uploaded a scenario that is all sea 😛
21:35:59 <frosch> it's a 894MB newgrf, 94MB compressed
21:36:12 <frosch> not sure whether i can upload a 94MB 7z on gist or in some repo
21:36:54 <frosch> was there ever a competition for largest newgrf?
21:37:09 <frosch> 900MB for a single train, it must be good, right?
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21:42:58 <TrueBrain> okay .. loading this scenario makes OpenTTD act really weird
21:43:07 <TrueBrain> it drops me back to the main menu
21:44:12 <TrueBrain> does that happen if the map is all sea?
21:44:45 <Rubidium> that's quite a big GRF ;)
21:48:56 <dP> last time I made all see map it worked just fine
21:50:20 <TrueBrain> frosch: : where for heightmaps it worked best to change the height resolution from 256 to 16, for scenarios it is a bit different .. as almost no scenario breaks the 16 height ceiling ..
21:50:44 <TrueBrain> so they are all "very flat" in that sense 😛
21:52:12 <frosch> scale them by max(16, max_height)?
21:52:18 <TrueBrain> but picking the highest value (or even the ingame setting) and scaling it, is also weird ..
21:52:37 <TrueBrain> hmm, not a bad idea
21:54:11 <TrueBrain> frosch: works well, tnx
21:56:06 <frosch> did you copy my obiwan, or fix it to 15? :p
21:56:26 <TrueBrain> it was not even close to the code I needed, but I can understand pseudo-code, no worries 😄
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21:57:29 <TrueBrain> hard to validate if my histogram is in fact correct 😄
21:57:40 <frosch> ever since i learned what algol actually looked like, i cannot unlink it from "pseudo code"
22:00:20 <TrueBrain> wauw, reading a JGRPP map is expensive ... the whole tilemap is in a single chunk
22:00:28 <TrueBrain> so ... yeah .. lot of reading of bytes that are not interesting 😄
22:01:14 <Rubidium> thanks frosch, that looks like the perfect train to test the behaviour
22:01:17 <TrueBrain> hmm .. and now to deal with `XSLFI_WHOLE_MAP_CHUNK` ... hmmm
22:03:28 <frosch> nice, i did not expect it to become useful at some point 🙂
22:03:42 <frosch> it was just an experiment whether it was possible at all
22:04:16 <TrueBrain> now you have to make it into a mov
22:06:25 <TrueBrain> OMG, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
22:06:46 <frosch> people wanted to make long wagons, which turn around corners smoothly
22:07:00 <TrueBrain> it is so pretty to watch
22:08:33 <frosch> you have a weird sense of "pretty"
22:08:42 <dP> frosch: why does it bounce on slopes?
22:08:55 <TrueBrain> frosch: it looks so curly and round
22:10:59 <frosch> not sure it really bounces. the train surface it not plain, so the visible ground changes, and there are strong light contrasts on some slopes
22:14:08 <frosch> remember any complaining about iron-horse having to duplicate all sprites because it needs different offsets for reversed vehicles?
22:14:38 <frosch> that css grf has dozen of copies of each sprite, just for different offsets
22:14:41 <frosch> that's why it is so large :p
22:14:54 <TrueBrain> I don't see the issue
22:15:18 <TrueBrain> okay, before my changes, analyzing all scenarios took ~3 minutes
22:15:20 <TrueBrain> it is now 10 minutes
22:16:48 <dP> newgrf could really use a better sprite compression
22:17:42 <dP> though I guess in this case just offset dedup will do xD
22:18:03 <TrueBrain> okay, even JGRPP scenarios are now parsed correctly ... I think
22:18:07 <TrueBrain> at least, "they look good" 😛
22:18:21 <TrueBrain> now for climate ... how to find that ...
22:20:46 <frosch> possible with the new header, likely impossible with the old format 🙂
22:20:55 <TrueBrain> it is pretty on top of the settings blob
22:21:02 <TrueBrain> only two conditionals
22:21:48 <frosch> i think there were different settings chunks before, no idea whether any bananas scenario uses them
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22:26:46 <TrueBrain> and ofc `PATX`, because .. JGRPP 😛
22:31:59 <andythenorth> that's the best mp4 all year
22:36:00 <andythenorth> best mp4 all decade
22:36:12 <andythenorth> best mp4 of all time
22:49:07 <Xarick> i think im gonna do a weird AI competition
22:49:27 <Xarick> 256x256 with infinite money
22:49:39 <Xarick> run for 100 years or so
22:49:57 <Xarick> then see what the world becomes at the end
22:50:45 <JGR> I wasn't expecting anyone to start parsing savegames form my branch, apologies for the weirdness
22:51:59 <TrueBrain> not more or less weird than what I have been doing 😛
22:52:16 <TrueBrain> so I guess it balances out 😛
22:53:13 <Xarick> it's been a while I haven't done any
22:55:08 <TrueBrain> lol, it is hard to see if I parse landscape correctly .. except for checking in-game with all the scenarios 😄
23:00:58 <andythenorth> /me reading about how RNGs work
23:01:11 <andythenorth> was napping, then woke up
23:01:19 <TrueBrain> frosch: no, also lot of arctic and tropical
23:02:46 <frosch> andythenorth: that's why i never have the phone next to the bed. if i want to look something up, it must be so interesting that i actually get up
23:03:08 <TrueBrain> 354 landscapes detected so far. 112 arctic, 192 temp, 48 trop, 2 toy
23:03:28 <TrueBrain> so more 50% is temp 🙂
23:04:21 <frosch> i guess scenario creators are power-users who know how to switch climate
23:06:38 <TrueBrain> `20 is not a valid Landscape`; reading can be a bit buggy .. let's find out why! 😄
23:13:37 <TrueBrain> that moment that all checks indicate you really should be reading the field correctly, but in-game doesn't agree with you
23:13:58 <TrueBrain> but when I load the map, it clearly does
23:14:40 <dP> if you're reading it from settings they get clamped to min/max
23:14:43 <TrueBrain> That is the weirdest temperate map I have seen in a while 😄
23:15:00 <TrueBrain> we have a bug in our UI, our UI has a bug!
23:25:43 <glx[d]> looks like what temperate will be in 2100
23:26:44 <TrueBrain> hmm ... JGRPP scenarios are parsed wrong, but they should be the same as far as I can tell
23:26:48 <TrueBrain> where is the difference ...
23:28:33 <TrueBrain> ha, savegame_version ofc has a high-bit on
23:31:55 <TrueBrain> that leaves a single scenario that is parsed wrong .. a vanilla OpenTTD scenario .. hmm
23:32:33 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD also fails to load it properly
23:32:37 <TrueBrain> so that solves that issue
23:38:19 <TrueBrain> only about 30% doesn't need NewGRFs 😄
23:38:56 <TrueBrain> and only 26 out of the ~400 uses game-scripts 😄
23:46:17 <TrueBrain> that seems to work fine 🙂
23:47:46 <TrueBrain> Now with showing the climate in the listing
23:51:46 <TrueBrain> there we go, another category done. Getting there, one step at the time 🙂
continue to next day ⏵
