IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-02-28
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00:26:02 <TrueBrain> Btw, TallTyler , did you know you could actually push in the branch of the original author for your last PR? You don't actually need to make a new PR 🙂 most authors allow us to push to their branch, for exactly something like what you did 🙂
00:26:50 <TrueBrain> If you don't know how, remind me tomorrow, and I will make a small guide. If you didn't want to, that is fine ofc 🙂
00:32:03 <TallTyler> A guide would be nice, I've tried and failed in the past
00:32:54 <TallTyler> And the one time I succeeded my changes didn't build and I screwed up the author's fork, so I decided to stick to breaking my own fork 😛
00:36:54 <michi_cc[d]> Pushing into another PR is the best power move anyway, as it still counts as not-your-PR, so you can self-approve 😛
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01:18:04 <audigexJon> TallTylerviaGitHub: Oooooh yes please
01:18:23 <audigexJon> Loving the newGRF work going on
01:18:41 <TallTyler> #10519 is in draft because I need some help with NewGRF-provided extra text. I don't know the maximum length of this, to set the size of a buffer. Any help would be appreciated. 🙂
01:18:48 <TallTyler> I'm off to bed now though
01:24:25 <audigexJon> TallTyler: 2046, as far as I can tell.... gimme a sec
01:26:14 <audigexJon> Yup, looks like it
01:26:14 <audigexJon> Generated a 2047 character string, and it shows everything except the last character
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03:45:44 <dwfreed> TrueBrain: RIP Discord bridge
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04:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> who needs these pesky discordians anyway
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05:24:19 <audigexJon> Discord bridge looks fine on this side?
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07:08:48 <TrueBrain> dwfreed: If we go, we go together! 😄
07:09:49 <TrueBrain> It actually restarted, now I am curious why ...
07:10:29 <TrueBrain> Well, it self recovered, so it is fine I guess 😄
07:46:29 <petern> Yeah, unlike the Matrix bridge, the Discord bridge doesn't feel the need to reinstate idle connections, which can make it look like it hasn't returned...
07:46:53 <Rubidium> darn it... I was just typing something similar
07:47:35 <Rubidium> though DorpsGek_v quickly rejoining was quite a tell for it having reconnected already
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10:29:15 <dwfreed> petern: oh, no, I know, that's why I tagged TrueBrain as soon as DorpsGek_v rejoined, because I knew he'd still see it. Just wanted to point out that it had died so he could investigate if he wanted
10:45:53 <petern> End of an era. RIP TileIndex.
10:46:10 <Xarick> ah, it still exists in some places
10:50:59 <Xarick> some places are Tile, some are TileIndex
10:56:49 <Rubidium> and conversions from TileIndex to Tile are implicit
10:58:37 <petern> I guess that saves on code but could be considered bad 🙂
10:58:58 <Rubidium> for most cases you can/should still use TileIndex. For accessing raw map data Tile must be used, in other words most of the functions in _map.h should accept Tile. In some places TileIndex has been changed to Tile outside of _map.h, but that's mostly so it does not need to do many TileIndex to Tile conversions
10:59:33 <petern> Yeah I didn't really read the change that much, not really RIP TileIndex.
11:01:36 <Rubidium> and the implicit conversion does decouple a lot
11:04:17 <Rubidium> eventually Tile should be moved more and more "up" the call stacks, but then first you maybe want Tile to have functions to get its neighbours, and then the whole PR really becomes a: change everything at once affair
11:06:44 <Rubidium> and why asking Tile to get its neighbour, well... in your tunnel/bridge head you can make the decision for getting the infrastructure continuation or the ground continuation, and what's then almost free?
11:08:45 <petern> How do we move to tile "layers"... bendy tunnels 🙂
11:09:03 <petern> Was it Smatz who fiddled with that a decade or so ago...?
11:09:25 <petern> And probably michi since.
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11:37:50 <Rubidium> can I guess LordAro's comment without looking?
11:40:40 <LordAro> the timing is suspicious
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12:08:09 <Xarick> not sure if it's cus of my branch or cus of the new tile stuff
12:10:19 <Xarick> ah, it's because I have visual studio debugger attached to the process
12:10:26 <Xarick> it didn't use to be this slow
12:18:56 <Xarick> I increased the number of stations
12:19:12 <Xarick> let's see if I can get more than 2700~ vehicles now
12:20:33 <Xarick> top left -> release with VS debug attached mode, top right -> 13.0, bottom left -> release without VS debug
12:21:37 <Xarick> all 3 started at the same time
12:21:45 <Xarick> the one with VS attached is slower 😮
12:38:21 <petern> VS does things with exceptions, even if the exception is handled.
12:50:52 <glx> At least 15 exceptions by tick with 15 AIs
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13:10:15 <Xarick> ---------------------------
13:10:15 <Xarick> ---------------------------
13:10:15 <Xarick> Assertion failed at line 272 of D:\OpenTTD\OpenTTD GitHub\OpenTTD\src\roadstop.cpp: rs->next != nullptr
13:10:15 <Xarick> ---------------------------
13:10:17 <Xarick> ---------------------------
13:10:36 <Xarick> i failed at increasing station limit
13:12:27 <JGR> You cannot increase the station limit beyond 64k without touching a large number of other parts of the code
13:12:42 <JGR> I would suggest you pick something easier to try instead
13:14:35 <JGR> Most likely yes, the only troublesome bit would be the savegame handling really
13:19:34 <petern> Improving the game by increasing limits that are never reached 😄
13:29:08 <FLHerne> petern: I think I legitimately reached the order limit (with shared orders) once
13:29:16 <FLHerne> it was quite a silly game though
13:29:38 <petern> I meant the station limit.
13:31:11 <FLHerne> that one sounds difficult to reach
13:34:57 <Xarick> i suspect im gonna have to incrase number of depots too :p
13:36:41 <Xarick> is RoadStop saved somewhere
13:40:25 <petern> They are part of stations.
13:40:36 <petern> Station ID and Depot ID are stored on the map though.
13:41:36 <Xarick> sounds too ez to just increase the limit to 0xFF000
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13:41:42 <TallTyler> Are there any NewGRFs that use the vehicle name callback for subvariants? I need to test it with #10519. I also need some help with NewGRF text stack not working properly there...
13:47:13 <petern> audigexJon: No, not you.
13:48:49 <petern> andythenorth: Bear in mind it probably doesn't take account of water-based industries properly.
13:49:19 <petern> Not sure we have Venice-towns either 🙂
13:54:00 <Xarick> not sure if i have enough bits for depots
13:57:48 <Xarick> how's the hangar index stored in the map array?
13:58:09 <Xarick> i think i have enough room for depot index in m3, 4 bits is all i need
13:59:12 <FLHerne> house flag that makes it built on water and next to canals instead of roads
14:02:40 <petern> Why do you need more than 64000 depots?
14:03:10 <Xarick> I'm not sure I do, but i am suspicious
14:04:25 <Xarick> coronaai reached the orderlist limit, I solved it partially by using shared orders
14:04:36 <Xarick> then after that, it reached station limit
14:04:50 <Xarick> i guess the next one would be depot
14:05:00 <Rubidium> Xarick: just change m2 to uint128_t
14:05:56 <Gwyd> How do you even reach the station limit
14:06:13 <Xarick> it places 2 stations per town
14:06:48 <Gwyd> On a 4k map each station gets around 200 tiles each before you run into issues
14:06:50 <petern> By setting up a game with AIs that aggressively build stations, not considering gameplay.
14:07:23 <Gwyd> On smaller maps there aren't even 64k tiles lol
14:14:34 <Xarick> roadstop still asserting 😦
14:15:35 <TallTyler> Figured out my text stack issues, will solve them later 🙂
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14:56:53 <Xarick> 1 vehicle per route, 2 stations per route, 1 depot per route, 1 orderlist per vehicle, 2 orders per orderlist
14:57:14 <Xarick> and 5000 vehicles per type, 4 types
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15:02:04 <Xarick> I'm stuck with the RoadStop assert 😦
15:02:15 <Xarick> trying to figure out what am I missing
15:07:42 <petern> Default vehilce limie is 500, 500, 200 and 300. Way below 5000.
15:11:46 <Xarick> i increased it to int32
15:12:02 <Xarick> RoadStop to int32, increased pool to 0xFF000, still asserts here
15:13:28 <Xarick> typedef uint32 RoadStopID;
15:13:41 <Xarick> typedef Pool<RoadStop, RoadStopID, 32, 0xFF000> RoadStopPool;
15:15:24 <glx[d]> But you're pushing the limits, in normal conditions it rarely happens
15:16:11 <Xarick> this is a bug on my code, not happening on the master openttd
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15:45:31 <Xarick> recompute catchment is slow in debug mode 😦
15:56:05 <glx[d]> everything is slow in debug
15:56:31 <JGR> Even for debugging, debug builds are fairly useless
16:00:04 <Xarick> had to wait like 10 minutes
16:00:08 <JGR> That particular one is easy enough to fix
16:00:24 <JGR> Much easier than trying to increase the station limit
16:00:43 <glx[d]> you can enclose github links in <> to automatically suppress the huge useless preview block 😉
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16:18:53 <Xarick> it's boring to wait 10 minutes everytime i load the savegame
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16:22:45 <JGR> Xarick: It's O(N^2) in the number of stations, with some thought, you could make it O(N)
16:31:13 <Xarick> should be possible to change the behaviour
16:32:42 <Xarick> i suspect something in the BuildDriveThroughRoadStop
16:36:46 <Rubidium> how many stations are there?
16:38:37 <Rubidium> as I reckon there are more than 65535
16:40:54 <Rubidium> and writing StationID 65536 to the map will return StationID 0 when reading, and now you're trying to look for a RoadStop belonging to station 65536 in station 0, which does not exist because it reaches the end of the linked list
16:42:15 <glx[d]> ok now I can check #10521 (probable duplicate)
16:48:03 <dP> do stations still gobble an unholy amount of memory btw?
16:48:17 <dP> 64k stations used like 2gb last time I checked
16:50:11 <Rubidium> looks like 9192 bytes/station
16:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you counted the cargopackets?
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16:57:47 <Rubidium> GoodsEntry: 136 bytes / cargo type -> 4352, but I'm not seeing anything else that jumps out for being huge. Just a lot of different fields, vectors, lists, etc.
17:03:17 <JGR> glx[d]: Most likely it's because the required #include is missing
17:11:32 <glx[d]> yeah looks like in requires <utlity>
17:15:59 <Rubidium> before I file potentially a bug report... is the emscripten/browser build meant to crash when saving, and if not does it crash for others too?
17:21:42 <TallTyler> Autosave or a manual save? It crashes all the time for me, but I never checked it it aligned with autosave.
17:28:43 <glx[d]> but Xarick encountered crashes too
17:29:18 <Xarick> it crashes to me too, when saving or autosaving
17:33:15 <glx[d]> ah seems related to map size, I usually test with 64x64
17:33:26 <glx[d]> just tried 256x256 and it crashed
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17:36:11 <Xarick> the roadstop issue was because i was setting the wrong bits in the map array, lol
17:37:41 <Xarick> SB(t.m2(), 0, 16, GB(sid, 0, 16));
17:37:41 <Xarick> SB(t.m8(), 12, 4, GB(sid, 12, 4));
17:39:24 <glx[d]> you store 16 first bits in m2, and 4 left in m8
17:39:38 <Xarick> no, it's the other way
17:39:47 <Xarick> first bits on m8, last on m2
17:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> different definition of "first"
17:40:49 <glx[d]> anyway your code saves bits 12-16 twice
17:41:38 <Xarick> SB(t.m8(), 16, 4, GB(sid, 16, 4)); ?
17:42:12 <glx[d]> SB and GB should probably not use the same bits
17:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no. in SB you need the indices of m8, and in GB you need the indices of sid
17:42:40 <Xarick> SB(t.m8(), 12, 4, GB(sid, 16, 4));
17:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the "4" needs to be the same, but the "16" probably needs to be different
17:43:52 <glx[d]> you store 4 bits of sid starting at bit 16 into 4 bits of m8 starting at bit whatever it is in m8
17:47:08 <glx[d]> so I can finally confirm the emscripten crash with 64*1024 maps
17:50:00 <glx[d]> anything >= 65536 tiles
17:54:05 <Xarick> this line is screwing me
17:55:10 <Xarick> didn't use to be there, or did it?
17:57:52 <Rubidium> do you intend to make a PR for having > 64k stations?
17:58:31 <Rubidium> if it was just for fun and play, I would just have made m2 larger
17:58:53 <Xarick> eh, what are the odds of it being merged
18:00:04 <Rubidium> I think the odds are pretty darn slim
18:00:06 <Xarick> SB(t.m2(), 0, 16, GB(sid, 0, 16));
18:00:06 <Xarick> SB(t.m8(), 12, 4, GB(sid, 16, 4));
18:01:19 <Xarick> retesting 14 CoronaAI's
18:05:37 <glx[d]> added #10492 to backport candidates, it should be fine
18:08:30 <Xarick> last time i reached the station limit was due to buoys
18:10:57 <Xarick> now imagine 5000 ships * 15, how many buoys
18:11:55 <glx[d]> main issue I remember from an AI using buoys, is it doesn't reuse existing buoys
18:12:54 <glx[d]> but it could reuse it's own buoys
18:13:23 <Xarick> that is true, I guess I'm at fault
18:14:13 <Xarick> i don't have an easy way to detect used buoys
18:15:23 <Xarick> would need to iterate over all existing routes in search for a buoy, i think, not really sure
18:16:38 <Xarick> a route searching for buoys of other routes is something my code isn't prepared to, the structure
18:16:46 <Xarick> the way i would access that
18:17:39 <glx[d]> looking for existing buoys around the location you want to build a new one could be a could start
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18:19:33 <glx[d]> then AIVehicleList_Station() should work with the buoy ID if one is found
18:19:47 <Xarick> that function is horribly slow
18:19:48 <Eddi|zuHause> could be something very simple, like instead of calling a function "place a buoy here" you call a function "look for a buoy in 3 tile radius, if not found build a buoy here"
18:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in this 3 tile radius search you can make sure the waterways are actually connected
18:21:17 <glx[d]> of course it's also possible to just use existing buoys as they are shared
18:22:38 <Xarick> the reason CoronaAI had hiccups
18:22:43 <Xarick> was exactly that function
18:23:40 <glx[d]> because it called it to often I guess
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18:24:09 <andythenorth> FML this much scrollback, and I wasn't even here? 😮
18:25:52 <andythenorth> Xarick: much as I support your efforts with GS and speed of lists in script etc. But trying to increase game limits so AIs can make arbitrary amounts of content is....not a winning move 😄
18:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you know that scene is based on a german poem?
18:28:07 <andythenorth> I was aware of the fable, not the poem 🙂
18:28:38 <andythenorth> oh wikipedia can explain it to me
18:28:44 <andythenorth> unless that article is a chatGPT fake
18:28:48 <andythenorth> I mean...how would we know?
18:29:32 <andythenorth> anyway, extending the game to support arbitrary AIs...
18:29:33 <andythenorth> `Tired of fetching water by pail, the apprentice enchants a broom to do the work for him, using magic in which he is not fully trained. The floor is soon awash with water, and the apprentice realizes that he cannot stop the broom because he does not know the magic required to do so.`
18:29:37 <andythenorth> seems appropriate
18:30:48 <Wolf01> I should ask chatGPT to handle the backlog of the orders on our ERP
18:31:06 <andythenorth> "I am sorry, I am just an AI Assistant"
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18:32:05 <Wolf01> At least today I managed to make it work together with the order response in EDI format
18:32:44 <Wolf01> I probably hate my job
18:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I mean...how would we know? <-- generally by checking multiple independent sources. (how to determine whether sources are independent is left as an easy exercise for the reader)
18:36:12 <andythenorth> so if you can afford the effort to capture all the sources
18:36:27 <andythenorth> maybe we should move all truth to the blockchain
18:40:03 <Xarick> it used to crash on 14th August 1936
18:40:10 <Xarick> let's see now if it can go past that day
18:41:03 <frosch> of all openttd ais i have seen, those which just spam vehicles exponentially were the worst
18:41:33 <andythenorth> maybe we should limit AIs 😛
18:41:40 <frosch> maybe we should add extra limits to ais, if they build more than 100 vehicles per year, crash them, delete them from content download, downvote them on bananas, ...
18:42:10 <frosch> AIs spamming a game just did not understand what makes a fun AI to play with
18:42:38 <andythenorth> was the execution speed limit to prevent AIs having an advantage over humans?
18:43:03 <andythenorth> so optimising performance of AIs with large numbers of vehicles etc goes against that goal
18:43:07 <frosch> no idea, ask webarchive
18:43:16 <andythenorth> well can't we just pretend it was?
18:43:19 <andythenorth> to support an argument 😛
18:43:20 <frosch> the goal of an ai player should be to make a nice game
18:43:26 <andythenorth> CivilAI does this
18:46:04 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:46:07 <andythenorth> anyway "AI is slow" is a feature not a bug
18:46:13 <andythenorth> "GS is slow" is the opposite
18:48:13 <JGR> Building slow is reasonable
18:48:30 <JGR> But gobbling all the CPU to do that is less OK
18:49:01 <andythenorth> I rescind my arugment 🙂
18:59:15 <frosch> what weirdo would sent a request to migrate their bananas content, if they have no content on bananas? :/
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19:40:47 <Xarick> wow, NotPerfectAI is even faster
19:40:58 <Xarick> i need to investigate this one
20:09:35 <Xarick> am I missing any pools?
20:14:19 <Rubidium> maybe your AIs should make a group for every vehicle to easily manage that, and then an autoreplace order for each of the groups ;)
20:16:52 <Xarick> i think this AI makes no group
20:30:53 <petern> You can hover over it and ... yeah do that 🙂
20:35:28 <andythenorth> hmm mouse-hides-trees?
20:35:32 * andythenorth had a patch for that
20:37:44 <TallTyler> Although I mostly just press X a lot
20:38:19 <andythenorth> the performance was shocking
20:38:32 <TallTyler> It reminds me of a feature in Cities: Skylines (might be a mod, can’t remember) that lights up around your cursor to make building at night easier
20:38:32 <andythenorth> but someone who was better than me could make it work
20:38:34 <Xarick> and you thought CoronaAI was fast!
20:38:48 <andythenorth> TallTyler: yeah I stole the idea from Art of Rally
20:39:07 <andythenorth> it punches a sight-gap through the trees when your car is under them
20:39:26 <andythenorth> it's not massively essential, it would just be really nice flair
20:39:33 <andythenorth> not everything needs to be useful
20:39:52 <andythenorth> the game does not suffer from things that just look nice
20:39:55 <Gwyd> X, A, and D are the most spammed keys on my keyboard
20:40:03 <Gwyd> This is true though it would be very neat
20:42:47 <andythenorth> the ? cursor is only used because I don't know how to hook to the main cursor
20:42:54 <andythenorth> ideally this would be attached to all building tools
20:42:58 <andythenorth> and not be dog slow and eat CPU
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21:24:43 <dP> is there some better way of returning reference to an empty vector from a template that having to specialize static variable for every possible type in .cpp?
21:26:10 <Rubidium> using static *in* the template function?
21:27:11 <Rubidium> as in declaring a static variable in the template function
21:35:06 <andythenorth> lol andythenorth problems
21:35:44 <andythenorth> I have GS code that should not run for player when game loads, but currently I have to run it on game load, as it's the only viable way to test it
21:36:05 <andythenorth> many things require an established test savegame, just for practicality
21:36:40 <andythenorth> (this is code that would normally run at map gen time)
21:37:20 <andythenorth> hmm maybe I can just handle that conditionally
21:37:25 <andythenorth> parameter or something
21:37:52 <andythenorth> storybook button to re-init the GS 😛
21:38:30 <andythenorth> also storybook button to clear local state in the script
21:39:04 <andythenorth> we don't have a text input for story book?
21:39:12 <andythenorth> I can't use it to inspect arbitrary state 😛
21:39:33 <andythenorth> would probably require eval() anyway, and eval of user input might be considered unwise
21:40:03 <andythenorth> oh maybe I can add a story page for each variable / table slot in the GS, or at least the ones I care about
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21:43:59 <JGR> Surely it's easier to just log things in the debug window
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21:53:28 <Xarick> using auto is good but bad at the same time
21:53:49 <Xarick> I'm searching for terms like DepotID, and auto ruins it
22:05:23 <andythenorth> JGR: it's not easy to log and read tables with arbitrary slots
22:05:44 <andythenorth> although I could extend SuperLib Log to do that maybe
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22:06:32 <andythenorth> not sure how I'd trigger log on demand though
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22:41:37 <Xarick> funny that I didn't have to convert anything
22:42:02 <Xarick> this SlIterateArray does it, up to int_max
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22:48:32 <petern> Not really a 'fix' though 😉
22:49:12 <Xarick> actually, I'm unsure how large SlIterateArray can ben
22:49:58 <Xarick> i got here a savegame with 64k stations, gonna test it
22:51:44 <petern> SlIterateArray() will support indices up to 2^32.
22:53:37 <Xarick> wow JGR, 3 seconds! down from 10 minutes or something like that
22:58:15 <Xarick> i think i loaded the wrong savegame
23:08:27 <Xarick> okay, the correct savegame loaded now
23:08:34 <Xarick> from 5 minutes to 11 seconds
23:12:36 <Xarick> this was on a savegame with 106825, so much thanks
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