IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-02-20
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03:26:36 <kamnet> frosch: Would it be possible to make Name and Upload Date as sortable?
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09:38:24 <petern> But only on my own server 😄
09:40:25 <reldred> Anything major change in the build steps recently? I'm getting some flavorsome errors compiling JGRPP, just figured I'd ask while I wait for JGR to get back to me.
09:41:00 <petern> I heard talk of curl, so maybe that?
09:41:48 <reldred> These were the errors I got:
09:41:55 <reldred> Could well be JGR specific stuff
09:42:33 <petern> (Although not a dependency for me on Windows at least)
09:47:30 <petern> Hmm, it is work time, shall I upgrade my misskey?
09:55:29 <LordAro> reldred: there's no error in that build output image
09:55:34 <LordAro> it's probably further up
09:57:24 <reldred> LordAro: yeah JGR sorted me out over on discord
09:57:56 <reldred> well, he didn't, but he saved me wasting my time any further 😅
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10:38:19 <petern> Hmm, wrong window there.
10:56:46 <petern> Don't forget the thing about vehicles changing speed/length when going around curves...
11:02:29 <dP> yeah, basically, problem is that trains use different metric for movement and for length
11:02:47 <dP> so when they move you need one signal gap, when they stop - another xD
11:22:17 <Samu> ewww, my AI is so bad with newgrfs
11:30:04 <Samu> i build ships with a max capacity of 720 mail
11:30:13 <Samu> and then only carry 1 mail
11:30:31 <Samu> running costs too high for that kind of capacity
11:41:40 <petern> > System.OutOfMemoryException: Exception of type 'System.OutOfMemoryException' was thrown.
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12:31:59 <petern> Reversing is a kinda separate issue.
12:32:11 <petern> (i.e. it would be wrong even if trains did stop in the right place)
12:32:15 <dP> 6503 is not only about reversing
12:32:32 <petern> Well you posted an image, not the issue.
12:34:25 <dP> they both stop and reverse at the same place
12:36:02 <dP> that is not "when the middle of the front engine hits the end"
12:54:03 <petern> I guess I need to double check with dP everything I write.
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12:56:49 <andythenorth> I am considering lunch
12:57:00 <andythenorth> petern: is pasta valid lunch?
12:57:00 <petern> Is it the correct time for lunch?
12:57:07 <petern> I'm not sure, I'd have to check.
12:57:10 <andythenorth> I don't know, what's on Radio 4 right now?
12:57:17 <andythenorth> that's how I know what to eat when
12:57:31 <petern> Radio 4? Probably some transphobic nonsense.
12:58:22 <andythenorth> also are we doing region type labels?
12:58:33 <andythenorth> and are towns automatically a region?
12:58:38 <TallTyler> Which radio station do nuclear subs listen to if they think the world has ended? Radio 1? Is Andy a sub commander?
12:59:23 <TallTyler> Have railtypes and roadtypes taught us about putting the onus on grf authors to choose and stick to a standardized label scheme? 🤔
12:59:50 <andythenorth> and cargo labels
12:59:55 <TallTyler> * has not developed either, just watched people be confused about it *
12:59:57 <andythenorth> they've taught us it actually mostly works
13:00:32 <TallTyler> I just copy FIRS cargo labels when I’m not making and failing to document my own 😛
13:01:04 <andythenorth> labels work great 🙂
13:01:19 <andythenorth> the only problem with standardised scheme is that mistakes were made
13:01:29 <andythenorth> we all make mistakes 🙂
13:02:30 <TallTyler> Anyway, what reads and writes Town labels? Is there a spec proposal anywhere?
13:02:46 <andythenorth> I make less mistakes when I'm asleep
13:03:00 <andythenorth> TallTyler: GS and grf, both
13:03:05 <andythenorth> no spec proposal
13:03:16 <andythenorth> just I made a list of town type labels yesterday
13:03:34 <TallTyler> GS writes, GRF houses read to determine if they’re allowed in that town?
13:03:51 <andythenorth> TallTyler: yeah that seems the most obvious way to consume it 🙂
13:04:00 <andythenorth> other flavours may be available
13:05:08 <andythenorth> I never made a house set, not sure how much control / influence house grf authors want to have
13:05:35 <andythenorth> but a coal mining town seems more about dense small housing than shiny office towers
13:15:39 <petern> Do I care that the turntable is not at exactly 33⅓ rpm?
13:15:52 <andythenorth> how much is 'exactly'?
13:18:13 <petern> I can't really measure that 🙂
13:19:39 <andythenorth> do you know the exact speed the original recording was cut at? 🙂
13:20:02 <andythenorth> MAYBE IT'S ALL KARMA
13:23:09 <petern> Maybe if it's detuned enough so that A is at 432Hz I'll become healthier?
13:23:56 <andythenorth> depends what cables you're using
13:33:10 <petern> At least 30 years old, if that makes a difference.
13:33:57 <petern> But some are less old, maybe I need to work out the average age (based on length (manhattan distance?))
13:46:43 <LordAro> there'll probably be a new one shortly with a different commit message
13:51:59 <petern> What sort of monstrous regime enforces commit message style!?!
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14:01:50 <Samu> town growth speed is... sometimes too fast
14:04:34 <Samu> even when I set it to slow
14:07:50 <pickpacket> Samu: nonsense! I love growing cities! :D
14:09:05 <pickpacket> I often start the game by looking for an area where three or more cities are close to each other and try to get them to grown together into one big mega city
14:14:15 <Samu> must decide which one so I can PR
14:21:18 <Samu> dang, the more I look into the results the less decisive I get
14:22:46 <Samu> the level crossing crash spam is very... unpredictable
14:23:07 <petern> Just disable all collisions and be done with it.
14:27:08 <Samu> as long as it's better than the old system
14:32:08 <Samu> but it's slightly better than what's in 13.0
14:32:29 <Samu> so i guess it's worth PR'ing 9 or 10
14:34:55 <Samu> i'd like trains to also be crashed when a crash occurs
14:42:15 <petern> "There's not enough griefing in this game"
14:46:34 <FLHerne> Samu: neither of them looks "better" enough to be worth doing IMO
14:47:16 <FLHerne> the thing about the 13.0 behaviour is that it makes it *possible* to build a multi-track level crossing that will never crash, at least with breakdowns disabled
14:47:34 <FLHerne> with appropriate signal protection and enough space after to prevent backups
14:48:04 <FLHerne> with the old behaviour it wasn't (without strict timetabling of all relevant vehicles)
14:48:47 <FLHerne> I don't see the point in trying to marginally reduce the number of crashes on badly-designed crossings
14:49:24 <FLHerne> you either want to force people to design safe crossings (crashes enabled) or you don't care and don't want crashes at all (crashes disabled)
14:50:07 <andythenorth> petern: what's the half-life of the copper atoms?
14:50:15 <andythenorth> maybe they bind more strongly after 30 years
14:50:27 <andythenorth> creating a brighter inter-grain texture
14:50:50 <andythenorth> leading to more resonant pitch in the percussion, and more foamy dark bass moments
14:50:54 <petern> Less muddied stereo width.
14:51:08 <andythenorth> with hints of citrus in the nose
15:39:58 <Samu> i didn't wanna stream it, but
15:40:08 <Samu> too late, made a mistake
15:40:15 <Samu> and clicked the stream button
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16:36:19 <LordAro> dP: i like that video
16:38:12 <dP> yeah, it drives the point way better than any words
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16:52:13 <dP> it would be quite easy to add wagon distance option to new signal placer
16:52:20 <dP> just, ew, more settings...
16:55:45 <glx[d]> samu: as you made a video showing the issue, maybe also include the same video with the fix
17:04:44 <andythenorth> our AI feels seen
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17:22:03 <dP> or they just can't into english
17:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to formulate this in the most neutral way i could
17:33:18 <Samu> the video with the fix is not as exciting
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17:41:33 <andythenorth> do we think there'll be a 13.1 or so with engine name callback soon?
17:41:44 <andythenorth> currently I have a Horse version using it
17:42:28 <andythenorth> which fails with 13.0 release due to unknown callback etc
17:42:32 <glx[d]> there will be 13.1 because 13.0 has some issues
17:42:48 <andythenorth> is it strictly only things already backported?
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17:45:13 <glx[d]> engine callback has the label
17:46:14 <petern> Bah at secrets that trigger once when walking over a linedef...
17:50:31 <petern> Hmm, this map requires both keycard and skull keys of all colours.
17:50:38 <petern> That's not original compatible...
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18:07:54 * andythenorth did a macOS update
18:08:03 <andythenorth> macOS reopens applications on restart
18:08:22 <andythenorth> usually the applications open for a user after the user has logged in
18:08:43 <andythenorth> but I just got a full set of OpenTTD crossing bells whilst the update screen was still finishing 😛
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18:09:06 <andythenorth> definite WTF moment
18:09:13 <petern> With my hardware MIDI synthesizer you'd get the awesome music too.
18:09:29 <andythenorth> I had discord open on my phone, I thought someone had added sound effects to our channel 😛
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18:15:27 <andythenorth> newgrf ground tile types?
18:35:12 <andythenorth> what if tiles had linedef?
18:35:29 <andythenorth> trains could trigger stuff
18:38:14 <petern> Sectors? They're basically regions...
18:47:39 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:49:18 <andythenorth> is everything regions?
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19:04:26 <josteph> temperate basic, I think
19:14:05 <dP> what is that supposed to mean?
19:14:23 <dP> that it's not sorting vehicles correctly by design?
19:17:02 <JGR> It just means that things are processed in the order that they're read out of the GRF file
19:18:09 <dP> so, basically, it's defining a list of operations, not ordering relation?
19:19:13 <JGR> It was probably easier that way in the TTDP days
19:19:43 <JGR> See AlterVehicleListOrder/CommitVehicleListOrderChanges in the source
19:20:02 <dP> yeah, I already looked there
19:20:19 <dP> just was considering whether I should pr a fix
19:21:11 <JGR> Does "fix" mean a brand new property which does more sensible sorting?
19:21:50 <dP> I suppose nml generates them in correct order anyway
19:26:22 <andythenorth> josteph: how did you produce that? 🙂
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19:28:11 <josteph> andythenorth, python + graphviz + manually transcribing stuff from the in-game Industry Chain dialog
19:29:00 <josteph> (I didn't find the FIRS github until I was done, or I might've automated the manual part)
19:30:14 <frosch> did you find the firs docs?
19:32:12 <josteph> right, thanks, bookmarked both
19:32:25 <josteph> guess my search skills aren't up to par today :|
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20:20:07 <Samu> should the teleporting shennanigans be removed?
20:20:13 <Samu> in the savegame conversion
20:24:47 <Samu> if feels very dirty in my opinion
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20:32:56 <Samu> does it do something else I'm not aware? I thought crashing into the side of a train was the issue it existed
20:51:13 <Samu> i removed the teleporting
20:51:33 <Samu> how much of a change it does
20:56:39 <TallTyler> Samu: Teleporting is still important, see my comment on the PR
20:58:41 <andythenorth> petern: how about linedefs, but actually it's ground tile types and decoration types? 😛
20:58:46 <andythenorth> there might be free bits
20:59:02 <andythenorth> so I can plant, e.g. cobble ground
20:59:09 <andythenorth> and put street lights and plants and crap on it
21:06:21 <Samu> is LC-Zorg savegame still good for testing this? i wanna investigate
21:06:42 <Samu> need to know how much crashing it gets without the tele
21:07:56 <Samu> just curious if it makes any difference
21:08:13 <andythenorth> the new Lego road plates are controversial
21:08:27 <andythenorth> because there's cohort of adult Lego fans who really hate change
21:08:31 <andythenorth> and have very little imagination
21:08:43 <andythenorth> and see any new part as devaluing their old parts
21:08:52 <andythenorth> they're basically better
21:09:03 <andythenorth> they split the road surface from ground
21:09:20 <andythenorth> and they offer flexible ways to put in e.g. road markings, crossings etc
21:09:36 <andythenorth> and obviously in Lego, the street lights etc are separate
21:12:39 <TrueBrain> wow, I must have opened the wrong Discord ... 😛
21:12:44 <TrueBrain> hihi, sorry, couldn't resist 😄
21:14:06 <TrueBrain> make us more knowledgeable
21:14:16 <TrueBrain> I am shocked there is no reddit rant yet about missing tags
21:14:31 <TrueBrain> no, that was not an invitation
21:15:11 <andythenorth> as an alternative to the request to increase roadtype / tramtype limits to [much more]
21:15:58 <andythenorth> 64 roadtypes is not enough to do all the combinations of ground / road / street lights / signs / powerlines etc
21:16:14 <andythenorth> not my request, is chat in JGR channel
21:17:17 <frosch> i thought the critisim of the new road plates was that they are too small for actual lego cars, they are too high for lego houses, you cannot connect them with eachother in the combinations they appear, they have inconsistent roughness/shinieness, ... ?
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21:23:03 <andythenorth> frosch: all of that might be true 🙂
21:23:28 <andythenorth> I kind of tuned out Lego criticism quite a long time ago, whatever changes, a bunch of people whine about it
21:23:35 <andythenorth> and if nothing changes, another bunch whine about it
21:24:22 <frosch> here the meta is more like: there are a number of chinese brands, who produce stuff that is not only cheaper, but in most cases better designed, and lately even of better quality
21:24:38 <frosch> lego is disregarded as toy for stupid kids with rich parents
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21:24:58 <andythenorth> I tried some chinese knock-off motors
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21:25:16 <andythenorth> seemed fine, not really much cheaper than official Lego, but Lego discontinued them
21:25:56 <andythenorth> anyway I never gave BGT much further thought because I couldn't figure out a GUI
21:26:22 <andythenorth> I kind of wanted to try a more general ground tile painting tool
21:26:28 <andythenorth> like painting rocks in SE
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21:30:35 <frosch> oh, and then there is the minifigure lolz
21:31:15 <frosch> there are parents bragging how their kids have the best toy: they bought 250 stormtrooper minifigs for 800€, so they play a proper scenario
21:31:32 <frosch> and the rest is making fun of them, how you can spend 800€ on a bag of plastics
21:35:12 <frosch> there is kind of a meme culture in german yt and twitch, even reaching into the top30 streamers to ridicule lego, and how they are losing against 2 large competitors
21:36:11 <frosch> there is a german-based imported of chinese sets (bluebrixx), which meanwhile operates dozens of shops in multiple large towns
21:36:40 <frosch> and one of the largest discounters also started selling their own brand of bricks and sets
21:38:27 <frosch> so, if you want to watch/read more lego drama, here you have plenty of content and meta games :p
21:41:26 <andythenorth> I mostly stopped reading Lego sites
21:42:13 <frosch> well, that's my point :p you no longer have to visit fan sites, making fun of lego entered the pop culture
21:42:38 <glx[d]> andythenorth: but everything is on the wrong side
21:43:12 <andythenorth> glx[d]: if only that could be fixed 🙂
21:43:17 <frosch> glx[d]: that's a game setting
21:43:33 <andythenorth> hmm but if we had a decorations layer
21:43:38 <andythenorth> and we could embed WASM in it
21:43:44 <andythenorth> we could have traffic lights as state machines
21:43:56 <andythenorth> also trees that drop leaves in autumn
21:44:01 <andythenorth> would need a hemisphere setting
21:55:57 <reldred> andythenorth: this plz
21:56:25 <Samu> okay, I see the "spike of collisions immediately upon loading the savegame."
21:56:25 <andythenorth> reldred: make a tile painter 😛
21:57:28 <Samu> now that I tested LC-Zorg savegame without the safety tele, there's indeed a brutal spike
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22:47:39 <Samu> I have backport requests too! :O
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23:05:59 <TallTyler> I added the `backport requested` label to #10471, since it relates to a feature added in 13.0. The others are bugfixes not related to new features, and shouldn't be be backported, IMO.
23:24:41 <michi_cc[d]> Why not? If it is a fix for an existing bug, it should get backported. The only kind of fix to not backport are fixes that fix stuff only in master and not the release branch.
23:27:04 <glx[d]> yeah #10444 can be backported
23:28:34 <dP> This looks like something that can be easily solved now ;)
23:29:30 <glx[d]> but yeah we are not limited to p1 and p2
23:29:39 <dP> well, the hard part was command protocol
23:31:12 <TallTyler> I guess I don’t understand the philosophy behind backporting, then 🤷
23:32:11 <glx[d]> basically if there's bug in release and a fix in master we try to backport
23:33:44 <glx[d]> and #10444 fixes a bug 🙂
23:34:10 <glx[d]> (a script should not be able to crash OpenTTD)
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23:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> what will they demand next? :p
23:41:43 <TallTyler> Ah, I thought #10444 fixed an old bug
23:54:51 <michi_cc[d]> TallTyler: If a bug affects the release branch, no matter how old or young, backport. Anything that is not a bugfix gets a lot more judgement-ish, especially if not really tested.
continue to next day ⏵
