IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-01-13
00:05:00 <TonyPixel> dP: That's not a hard task even for one man
00:05:13 <glx[d]> welcome to station spec hell dP
00:06:33 <glx[d]> also ignore prop09 and just use prop1A instead
00:06:56 <dP> that I already did xD
00:07:33 <glx[d]> bit31 meaning in prop09 is the opposite of all other spritelayout
00:08:43 <glx[d]> 0E and 0F can probably be skipped too
00:09:20 <glx[d]> (I did in nml)
00:10:33 <dP> I still need some support for decompiler
00:10:44 <dP> but probably not gonna use them for anything high-level
00:11:33 <glx[d]> oh yes of course, your tool is reversible
01:21:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PikkaBird opened issue #10343: [Bug]: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
01:30:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PikkaBird commented on issue #10339: [Bug]: Industry density settings are not granular enough
02:03:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #10342: Feature: Press Ctrl to build a diagonal area of trees
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02:23:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #10341: [Bug]: AI/GS settings randomization issues
02:58:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #10341: [Bug]: AI/GS settings randomization issues
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10:43:24 <petern> As usual manages to write a wall without just describing the problem.
10:56:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #10343: [Bug]: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
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11:05:39 <petern> Hmm, with CI/CD I kind of have to implement Migrations too.
11:06:41 <petern> Hmm, but that implies my apps have permissions to modify the DB structure... they don't.
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11:08:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #10342: Feature: Press Ctrl to build a diagonal area of trees
11:11:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PikkaBird commented on issue #10343: [Bug]: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
11:25:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #10343: [Bug]: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
11:27:32 <petern> I should do 6 years of master too...
11:33:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #10343: [Bug]: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
11:38:43 <petern> Hmm, my change is wrong, it prevents building houses along the road too.
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11:43:14 <FLHerne> there's another bug/discussion for that isn't there?
11:45:09 <FLHerne> no, that was about NO_HOUSES
11:45:15 <petern> There's another flag for it, so testing for road construction shouldn't prevent that.
11:45:42 <FLHerne> oh, 10343 is a duplicate of
11:45:44 <pickpacket> petern: iiuc you work a lot on the UI. If you were to make a guesstimate on my feature idea of a side pane that collects windows, how long do you think it would take you? (Not asking that you do it, just want some number to base my guesstimate on to see whether I think it's worth it for me try it)
11:45:46 <FLHerne> or very similar
11:46:32 <FLHerne> and tried to fix it but was reverted
11:46:52 <petern> Sorry, I can barely estimate time for my paid work, I'm not going to do it here ๐Ÿ™‚
11:47:51 <petern> FLHerne: How do you remember all this :/
11:48:33 <FLHerne> petern: well, I vaguely remembered that it existed, and then my browser history has this search thing
11:48:38 <Pruple> petern: there are two flags, one which allows or prevents towns from building the roadtype, and one which allows or prevents towns from building houses
11:48:49 <Pruple> they're usually, but not necessarily, either both set or both not set
11:49:14 <FLHerne> (GitHub also has one, but browser history only shows stuff I've actually read, which is better for finding things I vaguely remember reading)
11:50:51 <petern> Pruple: I'm aware there are two, hence why I know it's wrong ๐Ÿ™‚
11:51:10 <petern> But apparently it was done before and reverts...
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11:52:24 <petern> > The fact that a road type is not buildable by town growth does not in itself imply that towns should be prevented from creating junctions. This is not what the flag in the GRF specification advertises and does not make sense in the context of some existing NRT GRFs.
11:52:37 <FLHerne> doesn't really make sense to me
11:52:54 <FLHerne> a junction is a road segment IMO
11:53:16 <FLHerne> not that my opinion is worth much :p
11:54:07 <Pruple> petern: maybe it should imply that. if a roadtype is not buildable by town growth, that suggests the intent is that towns do not mess with that roadtype
11:54:26 <petern> I was quoting what JGR wrote, not what I believe ๐Ÿ™‚
11:54:33 <Pruple> ๐Ÿ™‚
11:54:46 <petern> <>
11:57:24 <Pruple> so "can't fix bug because some newgrfs have BAD FEATURES"
11:57:39 <LordAro> one of my PRs fiddled with it too
11:57:47 <Pruple> like hiding the roadtype that towns build ๐Ÿ™„
11:58:12 <Pruple> or not specifying any roadtypes as town-buildable
11:59:02 <petern> I don't there is meant to be town-buildable but non-player-buildable roads.
11:59:30 <petern> Or I guess there is because otherwise why would there be a HIDDEN flag.
12:00:39 <Pruple> why is there a "powered train wagon" property? the grfspec contains any number of features which are terrible ideas and should not be used ๐Ÿ™‚
12:01:56 <Pruple> but I don't find "towns should be able to [attempt and fail] to build off any road because it's possible that a NewGRF author has hidden all town road construction from the player" a convincing argument
12:02:04 <FLHerne> could be used for GS
12:02:35 <FLHerne> I guess his position is that it should attempt and succeed, using its default roadtype
12:03:01 <petern> That can be done
12:03:31 <petern> My fix for that will be after NewGRFs are loaded, ensure at least one road type has ROTF_TOWN_BUILD set.
12:03:43 <FLHerne> honestly I think 8535 is right
12:04:03 <FLHerne> otherwise you can't have grf highways etc. that towns don't mess up
12:04:27 <petern> The sample even uses RattRoads, which is later given as a reason to not to do it.
12:04:29 <FLHerne> whereas the stated problems are either roadtypes or the player doing things that are questionable at best
12:05:20 <petern> "could it perhaps be something the user can toggle?"
12:05:42 <petern> ๐Ÿ™„
12:05:44 <FLHerne> naaaah
12:06:56 <petern> I reckon not having ANY town buildable road types is a bug, and should be fixed in the NewGRF.
12:07:08 <Pruple> yes
12:07:46 <FLHerne> well, objection 1. is a valid point but seems like a straightforward fix
12:08:04 <petern> Not really, objection 1 is a workaround to a broken NewGRF.
12:08:39 <FLHerne> I'm not quite clear on that, does RaTT hide the original road entirely?
12:08:47 <petern> We can implement a workaround with one of those messages ๐Ÿ˜„
12:09:02 <FLHerne> seems valid for grf not to supply a town-buildable road and have the original one used
12:09:22 <petern> It overrides the default one too.
12:09:47 <petern> The default road type is town-buildable.
12:09:49 <FLHerne> hm
12:09:58 <FLHerne> yeah, that sounds like a bad idea
12:11:31 <Pruple> overriding ROAD with a non-town-buildable roadtype and then not providing any town-buildable roadtype definitely counts as a bug in the grf, and not something the game should have to work around
12:11:46 <Pruple> it's no different from disabling all the default vehicles, then not providing any replacements ๐Ÿ™‚
12:12:25 <petern> ^^
12:18:15 <glx[d]> ROAD should be town buildable, even overridden
12:18:31 <FLHerne> why?
12:18:49 <glx[d]> If no other is available
12:18:58 <FLHerne> other than "because then grfs can't break the game" :p
12:19:42 <petern> Currently it's built by virtual of being the default, but not flagged as buildable.
12:20:12 <petern> Flagging it as buildable fixes with extending use of the buildable flag.
12:20:31 <glx[d]> If the grf has a town-buildable available it's ok to not allow ROAD, but I think a soft fallback should be fine
12:24:46 <petern> Well, #8535 has the same issue as my initial change too, it prevents building houses along an unbuildable road regardless of the no houses flag.
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12:37:39 <FLHerne> yeah, that should work IMO
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12:47:22 <Pruple> petern: yep, that needs fixing - no build, yes house is a valid flag combination. yes build, no house obviously isn't. ๐Ÿ™‚
12:51:48 <petern> I don't think it's not.
12:52:51 <FLHerne> only if you want to replicate California City or something
12:52:53 <Pruple> it absolutely is. otherwise, if you start a game in a year when that roadtype is the type towns will build, they will be unable to generate any houses
12:53:33 <petern> That sounds like a broken NewGRF again ๐Ÿ™‚
12:54:00 <petern> But yes I see your point.
12:54:00 <Pruple> yes. so it's not a valid flag combination, and not something the game has to worry about accomodating, is what I meant. ๐Ÿ˜‰
12:54:07 <FLHerne> if towns don't build it, then what's the point
12:54:24 <Pruple> FLHerne: the point of what?
12:55:26 <FLHerne> of a town-buildable roadtype without houses, given petern's implied requirement that it not be the one towns build in a particular year
12:55:56 <FLHerne> unless I missed something that renders the "town-buildable" kind of moot
12:56:16 <FLHerne> I guess it would allow building junctions with the proposed change...
12:57:10 <Pruple> there would be no point ๐Ÿ™‚
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13:01:02 <petern> I don't see the reason to generally split player and town buildable roads as per RattRoads though.
13:01:41 <Pruple> it's definitely gamebreaking to hide the town buildable roads from the player
13:07:46 <Pruple> petern: the hidden flag was added to allow hidden "parents" for multi-power railtypes nonsense. you implemented it. ๐Ÿ˜›
13:08:03 <petern> I mean...
13:08:57 <petern> An idea that is badly implemented...
13:09:11 <Pruple> it kind of makes sense in the original context
13:09:54 <Pruple> but grfs using it make roadtypes that actually exist on the map unbuildable seems unwise
13:10:02 <petern> Those should be hidden from towns too ๐Ÿ™‚
13:10:08 <glx[d]> As usual things get abused by authors ๐Ÿ˜‰
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13:11:09 <petern> How do I do one of those red popups that says "oi, your newgrf is broken..."?
13:12:55 <petern> tbh, ROTF_TOWN_BUILD should've been inverted as ROTF_TOWN_NO_BUILD.
13:13:39 <petern> Scrap NRT?
13:14:08 <Pruple> doesn't make any difference, unless you assume newgrf authors are just slinging stuff out randomly and are less likely to set a flag than not ๐Ÿ˜›
13:14:33 <petern> Exactly.
13:21:24 <andythenorth> petern: goes it throw out the original author?
13:25:25 <petern> Throw out the merger
13:27:25 <andythenorth> goes it regrets
13:27:29 <andythenorth> diagonal NRT?
13:28:16 <reldred> Oh yeah I had those daft ideas of making my faux diagonal roads didnโ€™t I
13:28:32 <reldred> Had me some ideas on how to actually do it and everything
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13:51:40 <petern> <> another css framework that is... overly verbose.
13:52:11 <petern> I had some ideas about state machines for rail/road tiles ;p
13:58:52 <andythenorth> I will send you my newsletter about "compositional css isn't verbose, it's explicit"
13:58:53 <andythenorth> ๐Ÿ˜›
13:59:07 <Rubidium> will that include traffic calming features? ;)
13:59:18 <andythenorth> you are not alone in your views about 'but so many classnames'
14:07:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #10344: Change: Try making Scripts usage of Random more predictable
14:12:14 <Samu> inb4 regression failure
14:13:34 <petern> You didn't like Rubidium's suggestion of having a random seed per instance?
14:14:13 * andythenorth awaits bug reports about "random isn't random"
14:14:22 <andythenorth> someone will do a static analysis or something of it
14:14:42 <andythenorth> TBH, I used to fake random in games, because true random doesn't produce behaviour that humans think is random
14:14:49 <petern> I can see that making random repeatable for regression testing would be useful.
14:14:57 <andythenorth> ++ I'm just being a dick ๐Ÿ™‚
14:15:11 <petern> andythenorth: Heck yes, my album randomizer needs that.
14:15:35 <petern> (There are some albums it never picks, and other albums get played twice in a row, "not random"!)
14:17:05 <petern> andythenorth: Add a user configurable setting for "how random is random"
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14:19:03 <andythenorth> we could have 'random is not random'
14:19:24 <petern> <>
14:25:05 <Samu> regression didn't fail
14:26:05 <JohnFranklin> At least in Visual Basic random is not random
14:26:15 <JohnFranklin> You must add a line "randomize"
15:02:42 <glx[d]> Randomize has an optional parameter IIRC, which makes randomisation not so random
15:08:56 <Samu> i forgot about this
15:08:57 <Samu>
15:26:21 <Samu> 2 weeks ago!
15:26:32 <Samu> why isn't my email alerting me about these anymore
15:30:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8492: Fix: Don't allow towns to terraform certain floodable tiles
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15:31:19 <Samu> gonna test with the widening fixes
15:31:21 <Samu> brb
15:33:39 <Samu> there is a discord for openttd?
15:35:09 <petern> Yes,
15:35:26 <petern> Uh, I can't remove that embed :/
15:35:37 <LordAro> yo dawg
15:35:43 <LordAro> (i assume)
15:36:54 <Samu> eh, i assume this chat is linked somewhere on discord?
15:37:20 <Pruple> yes
15:37:31 <LordAro> that's where all these interlopers came from
15:37:44 <Pruple> antelopes everywhere
15:38:22 <Pruple> you're missing out on at least three other channels of horse chatter by still using IRC
15:38:38 <LordAro> i think i'll manage
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15:38:43 <Xarick> test!
15:39:13 <Xarick> wow funny stuff
15:39:40 <Xarick> Not sure I like this glorified chat client over hexchat
15:39:58 <petern> Such centralization
15:40:03 <petern> Centralisation?
15:40:06 <petern> One or both.
15:40:14 <Pruple> middling
16:03:12 <Xarick>
16:03:12 <Xarick> test
16:03:23 <Samu> wow
16:03:28 <Xarick> wow
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16:05:34 <petern> Pruple: does that test grf disable houses too?
16:10:37 <petern> Ah, yes.
16:11:22 <petern> I think ๐Ÿ™‚
16:12:46 <kamnet> Xarick: Welcome to the other side. ๐Ÿ™‚
16:15:17 <Xarick>
16:15:17 <Xarick> this one has the advantage of letting me paste screenshots immediately into chat
16:15:37 <petern> What. Have. We. Done.
16:16:54 <Xarick> so, this is with #8492 fix and the river widening fix, it's still letting roads be flooded by water
16:17:42 <Xarick> and if it lets roads, then it would also flood houses, just didn't have it happen yet
16:19:45 <Pruple> petern: the dirt road disables houses, yes
16:20:12 <Pruple> I can do you one with a roadtype that is nobuild but allows houses if you need it
16:23:41 <Samu> wow, bridges are getting flooded!
16:23:49 <Samu> this didn't happen before
16:24:17 <Xarick>
16:28:52 <Samu> TallTyler, town bridges are getting flooded
16:28:59 <Samu> by your widening fix
16:29:17 <Samu> he's not around atm i guess
16:31:31 <petern> Pruple: Nah I forced it ๐Ÿ™‚
16:31:45 <andythenorth> hmm
16:32:49 <andythenorth> what if articulated newgrf vehicles had a flag per separate vehicle subpart, and if the flag was set, players could optionally build only the individual part?
16:32:55 <andythenorth> possibly using a key combo or MMB
16:35:12 <petern> What if there were no bad features?
16:35:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #10342: Feature: Press Ctrl to build a diagonal area of trees
16:47:14 <LordAro> petern: i'm pretty sure that's just `int main() { return 0; }`
16:59:53 <FLHerne> returning is a bad feature, I want my program to run forever
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17:09:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 opened pull request #10345: Use smart pointers for iterators
17:12:27 <petern>
17:12:31 <petern> Left it running a few years, oops..
17:12:36 <petern> 113 ๐Ÿ˜„
17:15:04 <andythenorth>
17:15:04 <andythenorth> petern: I want to build torpedo cars, but with 17 middle parts and just 2 end plaforms
17:15:23 <andythenorth> vehicle objects maybe?
17:15:27 <petern> u wot
17:16:16 <andythenorth>
17:16:16 <andythenorth> if we could build articulated subparts as individual vehicles, we could all make this
17:18:47 <andythenorth>
17:18:47 <andythenorth> ha ha we could do this
17:18:52 <andythenorth> super garratt
17:18:59 <andythenorth> hmm....but power isn't on the subpart
17:19:06 <andythenorth> subpart power has to be 0
17:19:14 <andythenorth> ok scrap this idea, it was brilliant, but can't be done
17:19:55 <Pruple> you almost invented non-articulated vehicles there ๐Ÿ™‚
17:19:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 updated pull request #10345: Use smart pointers for iterators
17:20:26 <andythenorth> Pruple: maybe we should pursue this line of thinking
17:20:37 <andythenorth> composable articulated units you say?
17:20:46 <andythenorth> Train Designer
17:20:57 <andythenorth> ๐Ÿ˜ฎ Road Vehicle Designer
17:33:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] George-VB commented on pull request #10220: Feature: Engine variant groups
17:38:05 <LordAro> that sounds fun
17:38:12 <LordAro> should probably be its own issue though
17:43:44 <petern> Uh
17:48:09 <andythenorth> how even is it done?
17:51:43 <andythenorth> is that composing variants across 2 grfs?
17:52:02 <andythenorth> or just a bug with load order?
17:55:47 <Brickblock1> the rails set only adds track and disables some trains from xussr
17:57:36 <petern> TBH it makes sense that it doesn't work, but it doesn't make sense that reapplying config mid-game makes it work.
18:00:43 <petern> (I can fix it easily I think)
18:02:50 <petern> The hierarchy line should be fixed too. Hmm.
18:11:26 <scrubbles> procgen locomotives openttd roguelike
18:11:36 <andythenorth> scrubbles: like my garratt?
18:11:40 <scrubbles> basically train whack, but it's the train whack
18:11:56 <scrubbles> that garratt looks like it'll be a bit too rigid
18:12:34 <scrubbles> fairlie garratt, now that'll be the way to get two garratts worth of power while still having only one crew
18:14:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #10346: Fix: Link variants to parents when finalising engines.
18:15:21 <andythenorth> my garratt needs 3 sets of crew
18:15:42 <andythenorth> it's a long way to walk back to get coal
18:15:45 <andythenorth> for the first on1
18:16:12 <petern> Have you considered 3 levels of variants?
18:19:19 <andythenorth> one for each part of an articulated vehicle?
18:19:26 <petern> Sure.
18:21:37 <andythenorth> variants: animal, vegetable, mineral
18:29:58 <LordAro> petern: diffs are weird
18:30:06 <LordAro> why does it think you moved the climates line?
18:30:43 <LordAro> oh, i suppose you did
18:30:45 <LordAro> carry on.
18:34:10 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #10346: Fix: Link variants to parents when finalising engines.
18:37:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #10346: Fix: Link variants to parents when finalising engines.
18:40:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN updated pull request #10346: Fix: Link variants to parents when finalising engines.
18:41:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #10346: Fix: Link variants to parents when finalising engines.
18:41:58 <petern> Yeah, intentional. But not commented. Hmm.
18:42:42 <andythenorth> oh
18:42:52 <andythenorth> Horse wouldn't have triggered that in the testing
18:43:17 <andythenorth> engines are defined in sequence from parent onwards
18:43:19 <andythenorth> oopsie
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18:44:45 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 approved pull request #10346: Fix: Link variants to parents when finalising engines.
19:07:45 <petern> <> Shoulder chip?
19:17:23 <andythenorth> I got my own variant of that
19:21:57 <andythenorth> I can't really be bothered to deal with entitlement ๐Ÿ™‚
19:22:03 <andythenorth> even if there is a language barrier
19:22:25 <andythenorth> there are zero lolz
19:22:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN merged pull request #10346: Fix: Link variants to parents when finalising engines.
19:22:58 <andythenorth> see this is how a user does good lolz
19:30:51 <andythenorth> purchase list rework when? ๐Ÿ˜›
19:35:12 <petern> I want a text filter
19:58:26 <supermop_toil> i want to draw some custom furniture
19:58:43 <supermop_toil> only basic door frame and baseboard details to do today
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20:03:33 <andythenorth> petern: I want
20:03:49 <andythenorth>
20:03:49 <andythenorth> specifically the image
20:04:10 <andythenorth> the layout is actually not that great ๐Ÿ™‚
20:04:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #10343: [Bug]: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
20:04:48 <andythenorth> '9 Varianten'
20:05:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #10345: Use smart pointers for iterators
20:07:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] George-VB commented on pull request #10220: Feature: Engine variant groups
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20:09:45 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 merged pull request #10345: Use smart pointers for iterators
20:23:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #10339: [Bug]: Industry density settings are not granular enough
20:25:52 <TallTyler> andythenorth: I think the answer to that question is, because reldred and I bullied you into adding industry outposts ๐Ÿ˜›
20:26:41 <andythenorth> 'provided social cover'
20:26:44 <TallTyler> petern: Thereโ€™s a PR for that, I think it just needs some layout tweaks but the contributor is a new dad and is rarely seen ๐Ÿ™‚
20:26:47 <andythenorth> 'bullied' /s
20:26:55 <TallTyler> Could probably be finished pretty easily ๐Ÿ™‚
20:31:35 <Samu> hey TallTyler
20:31:46 <TallTyler> Hello?
20:31:48 <Samu> i'm checking the river wide code, there's a few issues
20:32:02 <Samu> the desert around river is missing in some places
20:33:02 <Samu> and there's a check IsTileFlat that seems useless, still investigating this one
20:34:43 <Samu>
20:34:49 <Samu> it's always falser
20:35:11 <Samu> because to enter that place, you already checked !IsTileFlat
20:35:45 <Samu> at line 1104
20:37:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #10337: [Bug]: It is impossible to fit farms and forests on small sub-arctic maps
20:40:10 <TallTyler> Hmm, maybe that's supposed to be `IsTileFlat(other_tile)` ๐Ÿค”
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20:51:54 <Samu> I was trying to find a way to get a list of "dirty tiles" from the terraform command, but I'm too dumb for this
20:52:14 <Samu> so that I would water them as they're terraformed
20:53:03 <Samu> seems that I need a command above terraform in order to access ClearedObjectAreas
20:53:09 <Samu> :(
20:53:54 <Samu> i dont know how to create a DoCommand after the changes
20:54:05 <Samu> to the entire DoCommand thing
21:02:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #10342: Feature: Press Ctrl to build a diagonal area of trees
21:26:49 <Rubidium> Samu: have you ever tried setting the gender of the company president in an AI with multiplayer?
21:27:58 <Samu> as an AI?
21:28:04 <Rubidium> yeah
21:28:04 <Samu> ah, yes
21:28:31 <Rubidium> though never mind, I haven't counted good enough; I thought it would be causing a desync, but it won't
21:29:01 <Samu> it's the server that does the command
21:30:05 <Samu> TallTyler, found these
21:31:37 <Samu> if the tiles terraform leave behind that need water, are watered, then #8492 will work well
21:33:25 <Samu> my english is horrible at times
21:41:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #10078: [Bug]: As of 2038, none default helicopter is available anymore
21:42:52 <petern> All your work is spoiled because a helicopter is no longer available?
21:43:45 <LordAro> yup.
21:46:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #10078: [Bug]: As of 2038, none default helicopter is available anymore
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22:01:49 <TallTyler> I guess it would be petty to make a PR adding "some vehicle types expire because Chris Sawyer said so" to `known-bugs.txt` and make that fix #10078 ๐Ÿ˜›
22:01:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #10347: Fix #10343: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
22:02:07 <TallTyler> Speaking of, I wonder if all these bugs still exist
22:02:11 <LordAro> TallTyler: honestly, not a bad idea
22:02:22 <LordAro> it comes up quite frequently
22:02:41 <LordAro> mostly the fact that engines expire but wagons don't
22:03:06 <TallTyler> ```All bugs listed below are marked as known. Please do not submit any bugs
22:03:06 <TallTyler> that are the same as these. If you do, do not act surprised, because
22:03:06 <TallTyler> we WILL flame you!```
22:03:27 <TallTyler> I don't think "flaming" somebody has been hip lingo in quite a few years ๐Ÿ˜›
22:03:55 <TallTyler> Probably time that goes away, sort of following the cheat menu string that said using cheats will destroy your family honor or whatever
22:04:13 <TallTyler> OpenTTD is more professional than it used to be, and all that
22:04:29 <LordAro> pretty sure that's a TrueBrain-ism
22:05:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #10347: Fix #10343: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
22:06:55 <TrueBrain> LordAro: Pff, easy to blame me ๐Ÿ˜ฆ
22:07:08 * LordAro hides
22:07:33 <TrueBrain> Git blame doesn't show the actual owner of that line ... hmm
22:07:34 <TallTyler> Way to tag the person we're gossiping about ๐Ÿ˜›
22:08:08 <TrueBrain> Ah, DV
22:08:12 <TrueBrain> That makes sense
22:08:23 <TallTyler> Who?
22:08:33 <TrueBrain> So right nationality, wrong person LordAro ๐Ÿ˜„
22:08:38 <LordAro> :D
22:08:53 <TrueBrain> So I take it, -ism is fair ๐Ÿ˜„
22:08:53 <LordAro> DarkVater(sp?)
22:09:41 <TrueBrain> TallTyler: Someone checked them .. a year ago? I think
22:10:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LC-Zorg commented on issue #10078: [Bug]: As of 2038, none default helicopter is available anymore
22:10:22 <TrueBrain> TallTyler: DarkVater was one of the developers for years back in the days .. he drops by from time to time ๐Ÿ™‚
22:12:38 <TallTyler> To be fair, I actually agree with Zorg on this one
22:13:22 <LordAro> one of the TrueBrain-era devs :p
22:13:55 <TrueBrain> LordAro: One way of making sure someone feels old :p
22:14:01 <FLHerne> ditto
22:14:23 <andythenorth> do the other vehicles carry on past 2050?
22:14:26 <TallTyler> Zorg checked all the aircraft NewGRFs on Bananas to ensure nothing inherits availability dates from the last default helicopter, and it really doesn't hurt us to make sure players can continue playing...but it does lead to a potential slippery slope with "what about non-Maglev trains?" and other decisions that actually do affect gameplay
22:14:32 <andythenorth> I never found any fucks to give about this?
22:14:42 <FLHerne> preserving the general feel of the game doesn't have to mean preserving every random misfeature
22:14:53 <LordAro> TrueBrain: <3
22:15:04 <andythenorth> adding 'never expire' to the tip of every tech tree seems fine to me
22:15:12 <andythenorth> can't find even $0.01 to object with
22:15:31 <TallTyler> I'd even "never expire" RAIL vehicles
22:15:44 <FLHerne> not sure about that
22:15:47 <TrueBrain> LordAro: 2004 .... I was so young .. in 2 months I will be getting seriously old ... boy boy :p
22:15:54 <andythenorth> TB I am old
22:15:58 <andythenorth> you are barely started
22:16:03 <FLHerne> the need to upgrade is a meaningful gameplay thing in TTD
22:16:08 <TallTyler> FLHerne: See for another example of "not preserving every random misfeature"
22:16:12 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: Lies!
22:16:19 <andythenorth> the chances are that even if I am lucky, I am closer to death than birth
22:16:34 <LordAro> TrueBrain: ...40?
22:16:36 <FLHerne> I don't particularly enjoy it, but some people do and it's part of the general experience
22:16:45 <TrueBrain> LordAro: Yup ..........
22:16:47 <LordAro> eesh.
22:16:53 <TrueBrain> I know right
22:16:59 <LordAro> i'm sorry
22:17:20 <TrueBrain> Nothing you can do about it I am relatively sure ๐Ÿ˜„
22:17:28 <LordAro> :D
22:17:37 <TrueBrain> You will get there too, no worries ๐Ÿ™‚
22:17:44 <LordAro> i fesr so
22:17:47 <LordAro> fear*
22:17:53 <FLHerne> whereas "upgrading" helicopters (... to what? giant city-centre airports?) late in the game isn't a thing anyone has ever done
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22:18:14 <TrueBrain> Owh, they are trying to have a real conversation here .. I will be ssssssh
22:19:17 <andythenorth> ok what shall I call this train?
22:19:27 <TrueBrain> Braintrain ofc
22:19:44 <FLHerne> it's a frustration that your helicopters get 'stuck' late-game and there's no reasonable solution
22:19:50 <FLHerne> so might as well fix it
22:19:57 <TallTyler> Besides "vehicles never expire" ๐Ÿ˜›
22:20:03 <TallTyler> We literally have a setting to fix it
22:20:12 <FLHerne> hah
22:20:20 <andythenorth> yes but that spams the buy menu
22:20:21 <TallTyler> But we can't rely on players to know about that setting, I guess
22:20:25 <TallTyler> True
22:20:43 <andythenorth> there's precedent now, e.g. we added cargo classes to vehicles
22:20:59 <FLHerne> to me that setting is more of a grf debugging tool than something you'd expect players to use
22:21:15 <TallTyler> Oof, #9832 wasn't even rejected because "what about NewGRF inheritance" it was "what if players have done stupid things in old savegames" ๐Ÿ™„
22:21:19 <FLHerne> except in very niche cases like if you want to build a museum railway
22:22:05 <FLHerne> TallTyler: I get that; it's not really "stupid"
22:22:16 <TallTyler> I think breaking extremely edge-case savegames is one of those "gotta crack eggs to make omelettes" cases, but ๐Ÿคท
22:22:22 <FLHerne> you move the station around until it accepts the things you want and not the things you didn't want
22:22:46 <FLHerne> in crowded areas that's perfectly reasonable
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22:22:58 <TallTyler> Only for Sawmills or Oil Refineries though
22:22:59 <FLHerne> and changing the acceptance can randomly break stuff
22:23:12 <TallTyler> It would just mean the cargo goes to the wrong industry
22:23:20 <FLHerne> maybe make it a per-game setting, and set it only for new savegames?
22:23:38 <TallTyler> I really don't want to add a new setting
22:23:40 <FLHerne> that's a problem if all your trains are collecting from the right industry and your network logjams
22:23:50 <FLHerne> just in the config, not user-visible
22:23:56 <TallTyler> You're right, of course, I'm just mad that backwards compatibility is such a pain in the ass sometimes
22:24:07 <FLHerne> yeah
22:24:23 <TallTyler> Hmm, I hadn't considered invisible config settings
22:24:32 <FLHerne> sadly someone made it impossible to ever release OpenTTD 2.0 :p
22:24:54 <FLHerne> "this version is not backward-compatible, see 1.14.x LTS"
22:25:21 <FLHerne> (yes I know that would be a disaster)
22:30:39 <petern> TallTyler: Deliberate feature, not a misfeature ๐Ÿ™‚
22:30:41 <nielsm> it would kind of be possible to have two sets of base game data available, "compatible" and "improved", and NewGRFs always inherit the "compatible" data
22:31:00 <nielsm> but that's more maintenance burden too
22:32:21 <TallTyler> petern: I know, I just disagree with how inconsistently the feature is applied only to Sawmills, Oil Refineries, and Power Stations ๐Ÿ™‚
22:32:58 <TallTyler> I don't play with vanilla industries so it doesn't affect me personally, but it's frustrating to see it confusing new players
22:34:02 <petern> Maybe I should get my manual out...
22:34:14 <petern> I wonder if my optical drives still work...
22:36:17 <petern> <>
22:41:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #10342: Feature: Press Ctrl to build a diagonal area of trees
22:42:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #10342: Feature: Press Ctrl to build a diagonal area of trees
22:42:40 <petern>
22:42:40 <petern> That's a few original scenarios ๐Ÿ˜„
22:43:04 <TallTyler> Did those ship with the game?
22:43:31 <petern> Yes, they are on my CD.
22:45:05 <petern> Not going to lie, most of these are terrible. They are very "programmer art"
22:47:40 <petern> Hm, along with awe and fm versions of the MIDI files.
22:51:34 <petern>
22:51:34 <petern> Not quite right ๐Ÿ˜„
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22:53:35 <TallTyler> `git fetch yupstream` ๐Ÿค”
22:58:03 <andythenorth> did original TTD have more Andrews or more Sarahs?
23:00:14 <Samu> hey TallTyler are you gonna fix river stuff ? or do I post a PR? I'm bad with commit messages ..
23:01:26 <Samu> just wondering what's going on
23:01:37 <TallTyler> I need to test the tile -> other_tile change to make sure that's correct
23:01:41 <frosch> it's funny, usually i avoid people who talk a lot and put a lot of words around nonsense at the core. chatgpt triggers me a lot...
23:01:53 <TallTyler> The rest looks fine
23:02:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 approved pull request #10342: Feature: Press Ctrl to build a diagonal area of trees
23:02:39 <andythenorth> frosch: 'talk a lot' ...I feel seen ๐Ÿ˜›
23:02:49 <andythenorth> so does TB
23:02:53 <andythenorth> he's just not saying so
23:03:13 <frosch> nah, you are more talking to yourself, that's fine
23:03:23 <andythenorth> the bots are just talking to other bots
23:03:42 <Samu> I posted some findings 1h30m earlier, did you see that
23:03:47 <andythenorth> there will be a lot of bots for detecting chat GPT content ๐Ÿ˜›
23:04:34 <frosch> they wrote a blog about crypto-statistically signing GPT generated texts
23:04:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler merged pull request #10342: Feature: Press Ctrl to build a diagonal area of trees
23:05:18 <andythenorth> oo
23:05:34 <andythenorth> wish to subscribe
23:05:53 <frosch> basically, gpt can pick between various synonyms in a lot of places without altering meaning
23:05:57 <andythenorth> I like the AI stuff, it's fun, but it might be problematic in certain contexts ๐Ÿ˜›
23:06:18 <frosch> they can use a cryptographic-safe pseudo-random generator to pick the synonyms
23:06:33 <andythenorth> that's worth knowing
23:06:59 <frosch> now you can check how likely a word is in each sentence
23:07:06 <andythenorth> ha
23:07:14 <frosch> but only if you know the key, you know whether it matches gpt's signature, or whether it is just random
23:07:22 <andythenorth> has someone written a bot to remove the crypto signature from the text yet?
23:07:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8492: Fix: Don't allow towns to terraform certain floodable tiles
23:07:54 <frosch> you can add noise to make it more blurry
23:08:06 <frosch> but you cannot detect the code itself
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23:08:45 <frosch> the usual plagiarism things apply: if you copy stuff, reword it to match your writing style and vocabulary use
23:09:11 <frosch> if it is destinct "not you", then it can as well get detected as "gpt like"
23:12:09 <frosch> i also tried the coding test we use for job interviews
23:12:30 <frosch> the weird part is that chatgpt always makes proper sentences, so it always sounds confident
23:13:37 <frosch> interviewees also sometimes talk non-sense, but for me there is a big difference whether they are unsure when saying something wrong, or whether they say it with full confidence
23:13:56 <andythenorth> interesting ๐Ÿ™‚
23:14:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #10340: Feature: Set a custom number of industries in map generation window
23:17:03 <frosch> anyway, the answers did not match any interviewee answers i saw before
23:18:38 <frosch> i checked specifically because we recently rejected someone, who did a remote interview, had 1 minute of silence after getting the task, and then just typed a correct solution without fixing anything afterwards
23:18:47 <frosch> that appeared implausible :p
23:20:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #10347: Fix #10343: Towns attempt and fail to extend disallowed roadtypes
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23:27:09 <andythenorth> frosch: did the solution work?
23:27:26 <andythenorth> 'driving the bot' is going to become the main skill soon ๐Ÿ˜›
23:28:02 <frosch> i did not test-run them, i only checked them visually
23:28:18 <frosch> i asked for 3 solutions, they were all technically correct
23:28:32 <frosch> though 2 of them contained a NOP line, which you could just skip
23:28:51 <frosch> but that also happens to interviewees ๐Ÿ™‚
23:32:58 <frosch> sometimes it also explained the code, to varying degree of correctness
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23:54:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler opened pull request #10348: Fix: Various Wide River issues