IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2023-01-04
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00:05:19 <discord_user_f4a0790> DVT functionality was the only thing that was gonna be lost in my updated SBB set
00:05:24 <TallTyler> Figured out how to reproduce it! Currently vehicles going backwards don't enter depots (which is obviously a different problem which needs solving) - they just bounce off the end of the track inside the depot.
00:05:24 <TallTyler> However, if a vehicle is leaving the depot initially and is reversed while some of it is still in the depot for any reason, it crashes as soon as one of its non-last-car vehicles reaches the end of track inside the depot and needs to be hidden.
00:05:24 <TallTyler> I'll work on fixing this tomorrow. 🙂
00:07:43 <discord_user_f4a0790> discord_user_f4a0790: It’s something that would be really cool in the scandi set because of the widespread use of DVTs there, the IC5 is a whole consist that is basically a DVT train
00:08:45 <discord_user_f4a0790> Brickblock1: you too
00:09:51 <Brickblock1> are they really that wide spread? I only know of one
00:11:30 <discord_user_f4a0790> Brickblock1: There’s the IC5, the trailer for the double decker carriages and some version of the B carriage at last
00:12:35 <Brickblock1> oh right the ab exists
00:14:25 <dP> discord_user_f4a0790: yeah, I'm keeping an eye on that
00:14:39 <dP> having a proper support in the game is way better than those newgrf hacks
00:14:49 <dP> only problem would be to un-hack sbb sprites xD
00:16:06 <Brickblock1> I wonder how this pr interacts with jp+mus
00:16:35 <Brickblock1> given the insane way that it is implemented in that grf
00:17:12 <dP> it will probably need some flag for newgrf that it's ok to drive backwards
00:17:27 <dP> and leave one with own hacks be
00:17:40 <Brickblock1> what would probably work fine
00:18:26 <petern> Just don't tell the NewGRF it's reversing, then any special tricks don't get activated.
00:19:18 <dP> yeah, I guess there can be some other flag for driving backwards
00:19:24 <Brickblock1> that could also work
00:19:49 <Brickblock1> but seams weird to have a useless var
00:20:05 <dP> it's not useless, it's deprecated :P
00:20:35 <petern> There's loads of vars available that have no use 😄
00:21:48 <petern> And loads of vars wasted on compatibility with TTDP for vars would never have been used...
00:23:32 <Brickblock1> Why are they all sold to iran
00:24:27 <discord_user_f4a0790> Dsb sold plenty of stuff to Iran i think
00:25:33 <discord_user_f4a0790> This is the IC5
00:25:40 <discord_user_f4a0790> Basically one huge DVT
00:25:49 <discord_user_f4a0790> Also sold to iran
00:27:20 <discord_user_f4a0790> The IC5, 3rd gen s tog, MR, ME and EA were all part of the same project i think
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00:28:05 <Brickblock1> We probably shouldn't steal this channel:)
00:29:27 <discord_user_f4a0790> I’ll send pics in Discord channel #add-on-development
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02:10:04 <supermop_Home> whats best place to keep 500gb of stuff online these days?
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03:49:52 <supermop_Home> debdog i don't have a home
03:52:57 <supermop_Home> like literally, I've just been moving from temporary place to place for 8 months after a fire in my apartment building
03:53:45 <supermop_Home> so i'm not really keen on a physical device that i have to move, and which may also get destroyed in a fire/etc
03:54:56 <debdog> ok, that adds one more variable to your question, fail-safe
03:55:38 <supermop_Home> google drive seems awkward and to get TB ish size its not that cheap
03:56:13 <supermop_Home> not super expensive, but enough money that i'd want to shop around for other options
03:58:39 <debdog> is it just to park data or is there a lot of traffic expected?
03:58:52 <supermop_Home> i have a few old 500gb-2TB external hardrives i back stuff up on but those could also be lost
03:59:42 <supermop_Home> the biggest chunk is photos, mostly film scans which i don't need super regular accesss to, other than a curated selection
04:00:27 <supermop_Home> smaller chunk but more important is architecture portfolio files, which i only access every 1-2 years
04:01:30 <supermop_Home> this past year i started shooting about 1 roll of film a week, so amount of space is going up pretty quickly
04:02:48 <debdog> you actually work with films?
04:03:03 <supermop_Home> not work - i don't make money from it
04:03:43 <supermop_Home> or rather i might make $100 over the course of 2-5 years selling an occasional print
04:05:09 <supermop_Home> nyt wirecutter review said use backblaze
04:05:50 <supermop_Home> but i don't consider the times to be particularly tech savy, just a good yardstick of 'this is probably not a scam'
04:07:56 <supermop_Home> if i lived in a spacious suburban home i'd ideally have a NAS full of drives, and then some copy cold on drives in storage somewhere else
04:08:11 <supermop_Home> but, no space, no home, and afraid of fires....
04:08:34 <debdog> what started the fire?
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04:10:57 <supermop_Home> most likely was extension cord overheating
04:11:14 <supermop_Home> it was in the apartment opposite ours, across the hall
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04:12:12 <debdog> I am an electrician and used to be a firefighter. I do not know how to respond right now
04:12:54 <supermop_Home> spread to the 3 apartments on that side of the building on our floor, one of the apartments on the floor below, and the 3 above
04:13:39 <supermop_Home> as well as the corridor and stairs on our floor, and floor above, the roof, and to a lesser extent the 3 apartments above ours
04:14:05 <supermop_Home> (6 units per floor - 3 in front, 3 in back, 6 floor walk-up)
04:14:18 <supermop_Home> we were on 5th floor
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04:14:59 <supermop_Home> our apartment had minimal damage apart from some wiring in wall between us and the fire
04:15:18 <supermop_Home> but everything in our apartment was covered in soot
04:15:49 <supermop_Home> very lucky that i reflexifly closed our door on the way out
04:17:04 <debdog> I'd go searchengine-ing for a local provider for file hosting.
04:18:20 <debdog> even with fatalities. that is bad
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04:20:23 <supermop_Home> yeah, their home health aide was not able to get the elderly mother out, and the son with down refused to leave his mom
04:21:00 <debdog> this may sound strange. but maybe they were lucky
04:21:24 <supermop_Home> the aide woke us up by banging on our door for help but in that time the fire spread to the corridor and we couldn't get in to get them and had to run out of the building
04:21:46 <supermop_Home> and by the time fdny got to them it was too late
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04:23:38 <debdog> I am not able to comprehend what you've been trough
04:23:49 <supermop_Home> their apartment was an unrenovated one (last rnovated around 1910s) with only a single 15A circuit
04:25:01 <supermop_Home> a few families in old building in Chinatown have occupied apartments for decades like that, and those apartments are mostly original to the 1910s-20s
04:25:32 <supermop_Home> (buildings are from the 1880s-90s, but don't think anything has 1880s wiring anymore
04:25:47 <debdog> I am not entirely certain about the wireing rules in the US. but a fuse does not protect extention cords. it only protects the wire up to the outlet. the problem is selling cheap cords.
04:26:18 <supermop_Home> well cords are not usually rated for long term use
04:27:06 <supermop_Home> in this case it seemed the apartment was very cluttered and the cord was covered/behind stuff, and used continuously for a heater or something
04:28:07 <supermop_Home> the old apartments have very few outlets so that is somewhat common, even though here in kindergarten we are taught to never cover extension cords, etc
04:28:20 <supermop_Home> most people generally ignore those rules
04:28:49 <supermop_Home> the cord may well have been old/frayed as well
04:29:13 <debdog> I like the masonry of that building, the ledges(?)
04:29:27 <supermop_Home> i didn't probe for more information about the exact fault for various reasons
04:30:04 <supermop_Home> yes i love the building, i had been in there since 2012, and its unique even among 1880s tenements in the area
04:30:27 <supermop_Home> it a has a few features that most similar buildings of the era did not
04:30:47 <supermop_Home> some of my neighbors lived their whole lives there
04:34:03 <supermop_Home> hmm was going to draw more station sprites tonight but squandered all my time going through old photos
04:34:46 <debdog> I gave up watching TV when on our news, I am in southern germany, appeared a report of a balcon breaking down somewhere in the US
04:35:54 <debdog> and I thought, that does concern me as much as a bag of rice tips over in china
04:36:20 <debdog> because it was on the other side of the pond. far away
04:37:17 <debdog> but hearing a tragic story like that from a fellow human, even that far apart, makes me sad
04:37:33 <supermop_Home> well it was back in april
04:37:56 <debdog> and I think more people were hurt and killed by that balkony
04:38:02 <supermop_Home> long time ago, and people die for sad and senseless reasons everyday
04:38:51 <debdog> sometimes there is no such thing as long time ago, is there?
04:38:57 <supermop_Home> in a city like new York, 20M people, everyday will be someone's personal tragedy
04:40:12 <supermop_Home> but this fire was a bit of an outlier, usually even here there are only a few that bad in any year, and some years one or zero
04:40:37 <debdog> that actually is a miracle
04:40:47 <reldred> Supermop, I've used Backblaze B2 before. They're a rather large S3 compatible block storage provider. But, if it's only 500GB, you could try renting a virtual private server (VPS) and pushing everything up there with a file sync tool? I've used resiliosync in the past. Some NAS's can also sync to a S3 storage provider but I don't know much about that.
04:42:06 <supermop_Home> reldred easier the better
04:42:55 <supermop_Home> but its 500 gb now, if i don't stop taking pictures that could grow up to 100+ per year
04:43:17 <supermop_Home> (i'm refraining from getting my negatives scanned as tiffs)
04:43:30 <reldred> Yeah, I know that feeling. My archive of photos is about 900gb, fortunately/unfortunately it’s not really gone anywhere
04:44:28 <supermop_Home> i actually keep a 256 sd card in my ZFC but for better or for worse i never fill that up on a trip
04:44:58 <supermop_Home> usually shoot 2-4gb on a vacation plus 2 rolls of film
04:45:01 <reldred> I stopped getting my slides professionally scanned, I swapped to using an Olympus OM5 on a light box with a macro lens and the 40mp multi stitch mode. Glorious results, kicked the shit out of the giant Hasselblad drum scanner the pro lab used.
04:46:07 <supermop_Home> also 35mm was hard to get for supply chain reasons at times this year, so i shot more medium format,
04:46:33 <reldred> EM5 mk2? Been a while since I’ve shot film I must admit. As soon as Fuji killed off Provia 400 I lost my enthusiasm, as it made hand holding the Xpan viable.
04:46:51 <reldred> Didn’t even really pick digital back up again after that either.
04:47:10 <supermop_Home> i have 2 boxes of fuji pro 400h in 120 here
04:47:14 <reldred> Might get my enthusiasm back if I start travelling more again.
04:47:31 <reldred> Yeah I've still got a couple boxes of it in the fridge
04:47:39 <supermop_Home> but i prefer ektar 100 all around
04:47:55 <reldred> I never bothered with Ektar
04:48:23 <reldred> I've been tossing around the idea of getting a 617 and shooting big fuckoff panoramas again but eh
04:48:43 <supermop_Home> maybe just gravitating to warmer colors and stick to kodak
04:49:01 <supermop_Home> i do love velvia when i can find it though
04:49:07 <reldred> I thought ektar was cooler rather than warmer?
04:49:21 <reldred> Yeah, velvia was gorgeous
04:49:28 <supermop_Home> its cooler than gold, but warmer than superia
04:49:43 <reldred> yeah I pretty much only shot slide
04:49:46 <supermop_Home> warmer than provia noticeably
04:49:56 <reldred> never really shot a lot of neg
04:50:26 <supermop_Home> if you can find it Gold 100 is nice too
04:50:40 <supermop_Home> only freezer stock now
04:51:09 <supermop_Home> i aactually got a lot of frozen aps film recently
04:51:22 <supermop_Home> not sure what i'll do with that
04:55:30 <supermop_Home> idk i'd also just pay Microsoft or google if that was a sensible option for storage?
04:55:59 <supermop_Home> andy would say he just uses some apple thing and it works fine or whatever
04:59:09 <supermop_Home> reldred: if you say backblaze worked well i'm down to just use that
05:06:56 <reldred> Yeah, but I was doing some other weird stuff.
05:07:17 <reldred> I can only really say that Backblaze aren't some fly-by-night shady operator
05:13:57 <supermop_Home> i guess Microsoft will probably be around for a while too, but OneDrive isn't really what i'm looking for
05:25:46 <reldred> No it's a bit of a pain
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06:41:16 <kamnet> I've been quite happy with Google Drive for storage
06:41:25 <kamnet> but probably not what you need
06:42:51 <pickpacket> I have a feature request. Do I add that as an issue or start a discussion or..?
06:47:01 <Pruple> discussing it here is always a good start 🙂
06:48:07 <pickpacket> I also have a question about production multipliers. Coal mines have 15, iron ore mines have 10. I set my tea tree farms to 12, yet when I start a new game there's usually more than a dozen iron ore mines with a production way above 100 but at best one or two tea tree farms
06:49:14 <pickpacket> The feature request: I'd like lists to be numbered. To be able to see how many elements are in them. Lists of towns, industries, vehicles
06:53:19 <pickpacket> errrh... nvm about the production rates. I was using the wrong version of my NewGRF
06:59:30 <Pruple> vehicle lists already have numbers... and you can see how many of each industry exists on the map. I think people have mentioned wanting somewhere that shows the total number of towns before
07:06:17 <pickpacket> vehicles have numbers, but the list doesn't
07:06:47 <pickpacket> if you change the sorting you'll see that the numbers are jumbled
07:09:13 <pickpacket> how do I see how many of each industry there is?
07:10:05 <Pruple> in the minimap, click the industries button, it shows the count after each industry in the legend
07:10:51 <Pruple> vehicle lists have the total number in the title bar, individual groups have counts in the list
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08:01:24 <Pruple> I do like this... bad features taken into consideration 🙂
08:03:29 <Pruple> give it 10 and *someone* will try to haul trains with 20 brakevans
08:09:20 <petern> "huh, what's this strange line below this table?"
08:09:31 <petern> "oh, literally an <hr>"
08:10:22 <andythenorth> Pruple: can't imagine who
08:10:33 <petern> Pruple: Give it power until it turns around.
08:10:44 <andythenorth> <hr> is the best tag
08:12:09 <andythenorth> can I add powered brake vans in my Horse Variants branch?
08:12:12 <petern> <div class="y-3"><div class="hr"> </div></div>
08:12:16 <andythenorth> or do I need a new branch?
08:12:29 <andythenorth> petern: did you do that? 😮
08:12:29 <petern> Have you merged your branch into main yet?
08:12:49 <andythenorth> reminds me of old arguments
08:12:52 <petern> Just my general mocking of the verboseness of modern css "frameworks".
08:13:17 <andythenorth> well stuff like that used to be argued as 'best practice'
08:13:20 <petern> <label class="form-label"><input class="form-input">
08:13:44 <andythenorth> there was a real thing around 2006 ish about dropping html tags and using classes
08:13:46 <petern> Guys, it's an input, in a form. Maybe just style it by default? ffs...
08:14:02 <andythenorth> then you can't style it differently somewhere else
08:14:17 <andythenorth> inline styles are fine, nothing actually goes wrong
08:14:34 <petern> I had a whole phase of removing all inline js and css as it was "insecure"
08:14:48 <petern> Stupid PCI-DSS OWASP extremes.
08:14:59 <andythenorth> yeah replace it with libraries you load from 3rd party CDNs instead 🙂
08:15:08 <petern> There's an attribute you can set that will prevent the browser from loading inline stuff.
08:15:48 <andythenorth> also no I didn't merge my branch to main yet
08:17:18 <andythenorth> shall I do a PR?
08:23:09 <andythenorth> I could squash some
08:23:41 <andythenorth> are we backing out variants due to the massive community hostility in tt-f and reddit?
08:24:00 <andythenorth> there have been as many as 0 posts angry about it so far
08:24:26 <petern> I assume that's like a stream-of-consciousness list of commits rather than a plan-of-action...
08:24:47 <andythenorth> "one does not plan this sort of thing"
08:25:16 <andythenorth> I have done programming as a job, and have retired gracefully
08:25:23 <andythenorth> too much discipline
08:27:46 <dP> andythenorth: revert as useless 😛
08:27:57 <andythenorth> tree, forest, falls
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08:28:23 <andythenorth> it's ok, when Pruple ships UKRS 99 there will be at least 1 post
08:29:26 <andythenorth> hmm I need a wagon tech tree now
08:29:33 <andythenorth> I have an engine tree
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08:42:15 <petern> So the issue of mixing audio equipment and computer equipment is mainly... so. many. cables.
09:45:02 <pickpacket> Pruple: what's a brake van good for?
09:46:37 <FLHerne> They're not required like UKRS2?
09:46:47 <FLHerne> I liked that feature :p
09:47:18 <Pruple> you can personally require them if you like 🙂
09:47:49 <Pruple> on longer olde steame trains I often use two, one on either end of the wagons
09:55:15 <petern> > The job of this wagon was to provide extra braking force for a train and as an emergency hand brake, should an unfitted train become uncoupled from the locomotive and become a runaway train.
09:55:39 <petern> New disaster, runaway trains...
09:56:14 <EmperorJake> In JP+ engines the brake van provides a speed boost
10:00:07 <petern> Hmm, fuck about with templates or just smash it with innerHTML/outerHTML... "it's slow" they say, benchmarking that templates can do 200,000 ops/s and innerHTML can only do 120,000 ops/s
10:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and how many million pages are you serving per second?
10:10:34 <petern> It's client-side so however many its still irrelevant 😄
10:13:10 <Rubidium> well... if each pixel is one innerHTML ;D
10:42:10 <petern> That's how it feels when drawing each pixel of this RGB colour chooser 🙂
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12:05:38 <pickpacket> So, everyone, what’s your favourite map generation settings?
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12:47:42 <mlt> All water, no industries no cities
12:47:52 <mlt> Takes a lot of work of your hands
13:22:08 <pickpacket> mlt: you're not wrong... but what settings would you enter for the map generator to achieve this?
13:23:19 <petern> I like water at around 60-70%. It gives a reason to use boats, not that Sam has passenger boats...
13:24:27 <pickpacket> and what settings do you apply to make the map look that way? :D
13:26:39 <petern> Sam is a meme at this point.
13:41:20 <petern> andythenorth's ship set.
13:41:42 <petern> For maps? I dunno, I hardly play this game D:
14:05:54 <petern> We're going to get ship variants aren't we?
14:06:39 <petern> What is that URL meant to be?
14:16:37 <kamnet> petern: All water, though, you don't need passenger boats. They all drowned.
14:20:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: on the wobsite, is there a good way to reach the docs for the latest version?
14:20:58 <FLHerne> I just incremented the number until it stopped existing yet
14:21:59 <Rubidium> kamnet: passengers between oil rigs
14:23:36 <Heresy> I usually just go directly to grf.farm and then click from there to find docs for version I need 😄
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15:11:35 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: where should i store photos and psds online?
15:14:46 <TallTyler> Not Andy and I missed the discussion last night, but I also use Backblaze for backups - obviously it’s not suitable for storage you need to access regularly, just when you have a data loss and need to restore
15:15:52 <TallTyler> I have something like 2.5TB backed up there. When raw photos are 25 MB each, it adds up quick 🙂
15:16:31 <TrueBrain> if something breaks, just let them send a HDD 🙂
15:17:15 <TallTyler> I think that’s one of the options
15:17:27 <TrueBrain> that's ... why I mention it, yes 😛
15:17:29 <supermop_toil> TallTyler: sounds good - yeah i wouldn't use it for working files
15:18:08 <TrueBrain> Backblaze also has an S3 alternative, if you need something with more regular access btw 😉
15:18:19 <supermop_toil> just the stuff that currently sits on various external hdds
15:19:04 <TrueBrain> 1 thing about Backblaze and external HDDs: if you disconnect it, after N days it wants to see the HDD again, otherwise they are removed from the backup. N depends on how much you pay 🙂
15:19:28 <TrueBrain> (I unplug my external HDDs when I am done with them; so I get a reminder every 14 days to plug them in again for a day, so Backblaze has seen them again .. not a biggy, just something to be mindful of)
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15:20:05 <supermop_toil> i kinda want something where "i pay you $X and you let me put 1-2TB of files on your server"
15:20:14 <TrueBrain> well, it sends me 3 reminders every 14 days per HDD, for some stupid reason, but that is not the point 😛
15:20:46 <TallTyler> Yeah I lost my main hard drive backup when I moved out of state for three months and then stayed there over a year…had to have someone make a copy and then ship me the drive so I could plug it in and re-back it up 😬
15:20:54 <supermop_toil> "back up the 500gb ssd of my computer as it is currently" is also nice but different?
15:21:18 <TallTyler> Backblaze stores my whole computer in addition to my external drive
15:22:08 <TallTyler> I think it automatically excludes some folders (program files, etc) that don’t need to be backed up, and you can set manual exceptions too
15:22:46 <supermop_toil> the back up my computer part is a service i'd use, but i also want a separate service of basically cold storage of 500gb-2TB of older raw and tiff photos, old architecture project portfolio materials etc
15:23:08 <TrueBrain> get any S3-like service, Backblaze has one, Cloudflare, AWS, Azure, ... 🙂
15:23:12 <supermop_toil> that i only need to get at yearly if ever, like when updating a portfolio to apply to a new job
15:24:14 <supermop_toil> basically what i use the external hard drives for now - 500gb of old stuff that doesn't need to be connected to my computer all the time
15:31:18 <supermop_toil> maybe i should set up a rig to shoot slides of all my digital phots and then stick them all in a box buried in the desert
15:54:44 <Samu> Am I allowed to quote code from RailwAI on a reply for #10227?
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16:17:04 <Samu> I think I'll let RailwAI know about it
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17:13:39 <petern> Oh yeah, that's more obvious, doh
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17:25:59 <andythenorth> unlike actual CMSes etc
17:26:33 <andythenorth> supermop_toil: I am in the Apple world, so I don't worry about it
17:26:47 <andythenorth> anything that's not on the Apple cloud is on something like github
17:27:11 <andythenorth> work stuff is on a work cloud service
17:27:47 <andythenorth> what happened to everyone just using Dropbox or Google Drive?
17:32:26 <supermop_toil> google drive is only like 1TB for $100
17:33:13 <supermop_toil> but enough that i thought i should shop around
17:34:37 <supermop_toil> backing up my computer day to day is fine, its more the other hundreds of gb of stuff
17:43:49 <Heresy> Office 365 Family gives you 6TB for 100 USD/Year (or regional pricing if other currency), though you need to cheat it a bit, as it gives you six Office 365 licenses, and there is 1TB per license, so you would have to create additional microsoft accounts then share the folder to your main account.
17:43:49 <Heresy> Have not done it myself yet, as I only use about 800Gb at the moment, but I also have Jottacloud which gives you unlimited for 10 USD/month, though they limit your upload speed if you go above 5TB, and depending on location they might not be the fastest, as they store their data in Norway (or other countries with equal or stronger privacy laws).
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18:45:10 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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20:20:57 <andythenorth> hmm what did I miss?
20:29:11 <TallTyler> I still haven't fixed my depot crash 😦
20:29:21 <TallTyler> Vehicle movement code is confusing
20:35:30 <TallTyler> The problem is clearly that reversing trains don't enter depots properly - they just bounce off the end of track
20:35:38 <TallTyler> I just haven't figured out why
20:36:03 <Pruple> hmmm... should vehicles which only have one variant currently available still have an openable list? It feels a bit confusing - "here's a new vehicle with variants! ... except there's only one!"
20:38:29 <EmperorJake> Also I'd like to be able to select variants in "available vehicles" without having to buy one
20:38:45 <Pruple> EmperorJake: I said that yesterday 😛
20:40:15 <Pruple> peter pointed out you can do it in an actual purchase list by holding shift and double-clicking, which works. but...
20:41:27 <EmperorJake> That's too hidden even for OpenTTD
20:42:32 <TallTyler> Maybe I should check out the shunting patch to see how it handles things
20:42:49 <TallTyler> Not sure my Git skills are quite up to par to compare it with my patch, but I'll try
20:43:13 <JGR> I don't believe that the shunting patch includes reverse movement, but I could be wrong on that
20:43:31 <TallTyler> It does, if I recall correctly when I played with it
20:43:42 <TallTyler> I remember having to turn trains on a wye (triangle)
20:45:36 <EmperorJake> So with this reversing patch, how would NewGRFs handle headlight switching? would it interfere with already existing reversing code?
20:45:48 <EmperorJake> It looks really promising though
20:45:54 <TallTyler> There would have to be a NewGRF variable for "vehicle is reversing" I think
20:46:07 <TallTyler> Old NewGRFs could back up but headlights might not work
20:47:15 <EmperorJake> But it would be separate from vehicle_is_reversed, which is already used for reversing
20:47:43 <TallTyler> vehicle_is_reversed is Ctrl+click reversing in depots, no?
20:47:52 <TallTyler> could be "vehicle_is_backing_up"
20:48:09 <supermop_toil> vehicle is travelling in reverse?
20:48:38 <TallTyler> I'm honestly not worrying about NewGRF stuff yet, need to fix depots first, then add player controls
20:48:40 <supermop_toil> automatically repaint lightest yellow shade to red
20:48:46 <EmperorJake> TallTyler: No, that's vehicle_is_flipped
20:48:52 <EmperorJake> It's already confusing lol
20:49:15 <frosch> vehicle_is_flipped is ctrl+click
20:49:34 <TallTyler> Oh, vehicle_is_reversed could stay and be set when the vehicle is reversed -- so just act normally
20:49:41 <frosch> vehicle_is_reversed is currently used for the newgrf hacks, it just toggles everytime the vehicle reverses
20:50:13 <TallTyler> Vehicles with fake sprite swapping would appear to magic flip when they are actually backing up
20:50:14 <frosch> you would need vehicle_is_driving_reversed or something, and vehicle_is_reversed must not be toggled probably
20:50:14 <EmperorJake> Speaking of flipping vehicles, I'm glad the need for the flip flag is removed, but I remember complaining loudly when it was introduced and I even wrote my first patch to edit out that line 🤷
20:52:36 <EmperorJake> Yeah it would be unfortunate if all the hard work that went into coding sets like JP+ and SBB had the opposite effect
20:53:01 <reldred> TallTyler: Clearly they need bigger depots
20:53:21 <TallTyler> I haven't figured out compatibility but NewGRFs can always be changed 🙂 Nothing would be legitimately broken, they just couldn't use the new feature
20:54:00 <TallTyler> I am planning to have the reversing happen only when the vehicle has a Reverse order (probably its own line, from the same dropdown where conditional orders are found)
20:54:29 <TallTyler> Without that order, the train can magic flip, keeping old behavior (and avoiding any new settings!)
20:54:42 <reldred> Yeah I’d use the hell out of that
20:54:50 <TallTyler> So old NewGRFs could just keep current behavior and work fine
20:55:05 <reldred> Probably patch it for JGRPP to make it optionally mandatory 😛
20:55:15 <TallTyler> Nope, it goes to vanilla
20:55:24 <TallTyler> Oh I see what you mean
20:55:28 <reldred> Yeah but once it gets merged with JGRPP 😛
20:56:07 <reldred> Sorry am tired and sick, probably not making much sense 😔
20:56:23 <TallTyler> Nah, I understand now
20:58:08 <Brickblock1> I think that it would be preferred if it only gets used if the first and last wagon in the consist supports it.
20:58:27 <TallTyler> No, the idea is you can shove freight trains at reduced speed
20:58:50 <TallTyler> If you don't want it to reverse, just don't give it the Reverse order and it'll magic flip just like now
20:59:04 <Brickblock1> but you have to limit speed for that to make sense
20:59:10 <EmperorJake> Brickblock1: That's what I thought at first too, as this is how transport fever 2 handles it
20:59:24 <EmperorJake> but this way is more versatile
20:59:34 <TallTyler> I plan to limit speed to whatever trains use when entering depots
20:59:49 <TallTyler> To avoid any discussion of NewGRFs setting their own reversing speed 🙂
21:00:09 <Brickblock1> TallTyler: but what if you use a push pull set?
21:00:17 <andythenorth> I wish to discuss
21:00:23 <Brickblock1> would make it way worse imo
21:00:26 <EmperorJake> Oh, but I wanted to have IH trains be able to push pull
21:00:35 <EmperorJake> what is even the point otherwise
21:00:45 <TallTyler> Oh right, sorry -- speed only limited if there's no engine on the back
21:01:03 <reldred> Yup, this solves my mental quandary of terminus stations, I despise magic flip,
21:01:07 <Brickblock1> but what if I don't want by dvt to have power?
21:01:09 <TallTyler> So push-pull goes full speed, freight trains being shoved go slow
21:01:21 <Brickblock1> TallTyler: makes sense
21:01:34 <TallTyler> We can discuss NewGRF flags once I wrap my head around movement code enough to stop crashing
21:01:39 <reldred> DVT’s are usually still coded as engines not wagons?
21:01:48 <EmperorJake> Brickblock1: A DVT needs power to be able to lead a train, so it's seen as a locomotive
21:01:52 <JGR> For freight, trying to move locomotives around with headshunts and the likely makes the scale problems even more obvious
21:02:14 <Brickblock1> not all grf are coded that way and there would be no need with this implementation
21:02:41 <Brickblock1> for example sbb set and rukts
21:02:59 <reldred> Then don’t use the the special order?
21:03:12 <EmperorJake> Those sets already have hacky flipping magic
21:03:23 <Brickblock1> if a new set was made with out the magic and power
21:04:57 <JGR> If the vehicle is already double-headed or with a DVT, it would make sense to drive "backwards" without needing a special order?
21:05:02 <EmperorJake> There are some sets that have unpowered driving trailers and also no flipping magic, those could then be updated easily, e.g. Austrain set
21:05:19 <TallTyler> It would be trivial to add a "vehicle_has_cab" flag later instead of using engine power, that's a minor detail to figure out later I think
21:05:54 <EmperorJake> That sounds like a good idea, TpF2 style best of both worlds
21:06:25 <EmperorJake> I was thinking that too
21:06:55 <JGR> That seems like by far the most common case
21:07:15 <EmperorJake> But that could still break existing GRFs that use both double headed and magic flipping code
21:07:32 <TallTyler> That's true, they would revert to magic flip
21:07:40 <JGR> You can just not toggle the vehicle reversed bit
21:07:55 <JGR> It's not hard to hide stuff like that from GRFs
21:08:49 <Brickblock1> or only do it if front and back has `has_cab_flag`
21:10:53 <JGR> `VRF_TOGGLE_REVERSE` is only used for signalling to NewGRFs so could be easily left as 0 to disable any GRF magic flipping
21:13:04 <EmperorJake> But wouldn't GRFs still need that to change headlights/pantos when the train reverses?
21:13:24 <TallTyler> It would need to be a different flag
21:16:31 <Pruple> yes, but you can use cb36 to remove the power again
21:17:12 <Pruple> @ "but what if I don't want by dvt to have power?"
21:17:47 <Pruple> that's a solution for the status quo though, not full train reversing 🙂
21:18:30 <Brickblock1> I feel like most of the things I hear about cb36 is negative
21:18:46 <Brickblock1> but that might not be true
21:19:15 <JGR> It's arguably poor interface design, but it works
21:20:13 <andythenorth> cb36 is like editing memory in place
21:20:16 <andythenorth> fine if you know what you're doing
21:20:21 <andythenorth> most of us don't
21:20:57 <andythenorth> generally, reaching for cb 36 is a sign of a questionable design
21:21:00 <andythenorth> unless it's for lolz
21:21:54 <JGR> If you stick to the well-used paths you won't have any problems
21:23:25 <JGR> That said I've got a fair few mitigations and special casing for CB36 in my branch
21:24:55 <Pruple> For trains I only usually use cb36 for two things, loading speed and reducing running costs when stationary, which is BEST FEATURE
21:25:33 <reldred> Pruple: Yup, it’s so good I made a non grf version of the feature for JGRPP 😛
21:25:49 <reldred> Because iron horse was killing me with running costs 🤣
21:29:03 <andythenorth> reldred: git gud? 😛
21:29:28 <reldred> andythenorth: You and I play very different games I have come to realise 😛
21:30:53 <reldred> I nearly forgot I made that patch, I should tally up all the features I made at some point, if anything just for my own reference.
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21:46:41 <JGR> `git log --author=` is your friend on that one
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21:59:56 <glx[d]> oh the "show NewGRF in build vehicle" is a setting because andythenorth 's 13" screen
22:03:56 <andythenorth> and I don't like it 😛
22:07:34 <petern> TallTyler: TallTyler there's multiple flags for reversing and flipping
22:09:27 <TallTyler> Yeah I figured that out 🙂
22:09:43 <petern> Phone scroll back isn't great
22:10:16 <petern> Solution: never go outside again
22:10:18 <TallTyler> There was a whole debate about flags and NewGRF behavior but my focus right now is just fixing crashes
22:12:36 <TallTyler> Oops I did `git pull` instead of `git fetch` on the shunting patch, time to reset…
22:18:43 <reldred> I think just starting off with the special vehicle order like you said is the best starting point, grf authors will argue for decades on how best to implement it depending entirely on how much tech debt they’ve acquired in their work 😛
22:19:15 <TallTyler> Yeah I'm not particularly interested in trying to make GRFs backwards-compatible
22:20:29 <TallTyler> Time to rebase shunting patch to master before comparing it with my fork...wish me luck 😬
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22:21:46 <reldred> Yeap, special order for folks who want to use it, otherwise leave the rest of the game alone, if set authors want to support it they will.
22:22:34 <reldred> I’d personally like ways to enforce it, but that can wait
22:22:50 <TallTyler> Oof, time to rebase 100 commits
22:23:01 <JGR> This doesn't seem all that user friendly
22:23:39 <JGR> Adding a order flag which doesn't work with the vast majority of GRFs will create a large support problem
22:24:14 <JGR> Unless you can automatically hide the flag from the UI
22:24:16 <TallTyler> It does work with most GRFs, just not the ones that have their own push-pull magic
22:24:23 <TallTyler> Maybe I misunderstand you
22:25:26 <JGR> You seemed to suggest making it opt-in, but if that's not the intention that would make sense
22:29:06 <TallTyler> My thinking is that vehicles only reverse if the player gives them a Reverse order. If the rear vehicle is an engine (or maybe if it has some NewGRF flag to be determined later), it can go full speed, otherwise it's restricted to entering-a-depot speed
22:29:20 <TallTyler> So yes, fully opt-in on the player's end and mostly a visual change
22:30:02 <TallTyler> I would consider having vehicles with engines (or cabs, TBD later) on both ends automatically reverse, but that's a discussion for later
22:33:14 <petern> End of line? Or at platforms?
22:33:33 <TallTyler> I'm using waypoints to make wyes/triangles in my test game
22:34:15 <TallTyler> You'd need a Reverse order right after the `Go via waypoint` order
22:38:21 <Pruple> as my 2c, reverse orders sound like a bad idea, as they serve no gameplay purpose. For newgrf compatibility purposes, I'd say if a train doesn't meet your full-speed-reverse criteria, it should flip as normal. If it does meet the criteria, you should reverse it, but hide the fact that it's reversed from the newgrf (ie force the flip bit to 0), unless the loco has a flag set to say it knows this feature exists.
22:38:49 <Pruple> that would keep all existing newgrfs (mostly) working, and allow new newgrfs to still set different front/back graphics for reversed trains (eg different lights)
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22:39:21 <TallTyler> That would be much easier, yes
22:41:16 <michi_cc[d]> TallTyler: Tangentially related to the whole reversing stuff, I started on https://github.com/michicc/OpenTTD/commits/consist quite some time ago (not very up-to-date either) as it seems quite wasteful to me that each vehicle stores a lot of stuff that is actually not per `Vehicle`, but per vehicle chain.
22:41:51 <andythenorth> pls send newsletter
22:42:23 <michi_cc[d]> The idea behind this is of course that if you separate the once-per-chain variables from `Vehicle`, shenenigangs with the vehicle chain become easier.
22:42:48 <michi_cc[d]> andythenorth: Sorry, but despite the name consist this has nothing to to with template replacement or anyxthing in this direction.
22:43:01 <andythenorth> nah I get that 🙂
22:43:22 <JGR> The assumptions about vehicle chains, head vehicles etc are baked fairly deep all over the codebase
22:43:29 <JGR> It's a big job to get rid of all that
22:43:39 <michi_cc[d]> In fact the branch as it is now in its unfinished state has no player-visible effect at all.
22:44:42 <andythenorth> not sure why it seems more correct to me
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22:48:43 <glx[d]> even without consist I can see useful changes in your branch
22:49:38 <michi_cc[d]> And going back to the earlier discussion about when to reverse (auto/only by order etc), the forum post somebody (was it 2TT?) from frosch is basically exactly how I would design it, and I don't think my opinion has changed very much since then (which is TLDR don't assume users find any optional thing and just make it apply always with some NewGRF flags for control).
22:50:08 <michi_cc[d]> glx[d]: Cherry-picks welcome 🙂
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22:52:20 <andythenorth> oof ffwd is latched again on macos 🙂
22:52:51 <andythenorth> can't file a bug, can't see any obvious repro 😛
22:53:47 <glx[d]> it's easy to reproduce, press the FFWD key, release it during autosave 🙂
22:54:12 <glx[d]> but it should not happen in recent enough master
22:54:34 <andythenorth> I think this is something different now
22:54:42 <andythenorth> this latches on and won't clear for some time
22:54:53 <andythenorth> button doesn't respond, tab key doesn't respond
22:55:01 <andythenorth> then it seems to self-clear
23:02:48 <TallTyler> michi_cc[d]: Happen to have any to-do list of what remains to be done? I'm skeptical that my current approach will bear fruit, as I don't fully understand the current implementation and probably need to start from scratch. 😕
23:03:09 <TallTyler> Starting with simplifying trains to consists would be a good place to begin
23:03:47 <TallTyler> Although for now it's probably outside my skillset, so I think I'll go back to playing with time tomorrow, as that is within my current abilities
23:04:09 <TallTyler> Sorry reldred and others who got their hopes up about push-pull anytime soon 😛
23:04:09 <andythenorth> adjusting time is really quite desirable
23:04:26 <TallTyler> It's tied with autoseparation for my most-wanted feature
23:04:42 <andythenorth> I would like to run tech tree progression about 50% slower right now
23:04:46 <andythenorth> without affecting anything else
23:04:56 <andythenorth> I could do it in grf
23:05:07 <TallTyler> I'm pretty confident that I can pull off adjusting time in base game using nielsmh's approach
23:05:34 <andythenorth> I have no need of RL dates
23:05:34 <TallTyler> Most of the challenging bits are UI decisions, which I can handle much better than understanding train movement code
23:05:42 <TallTyler> I guess I'm a front-end dev 😛
23:05:53 <andythenorth> the only thing about elapsed real time is it shows how long I've spent on a game 😛
23:06:14 <TallTyler> I would have been happy with groundhog year but that was shot down as an ugly hack, which is completely fair
23:06:54 <TallTyler> No more code for me today either
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23:10:47 <michi_cc[d]> TallTyler: The biggest missing chunk is all the order-related things I guess. And then basically just checking all members of `Vehicle` if they are indeed for each single vehicle.
23:11:54 <TallTyler> Something for me to explore in a few months, perhaps, unless you get to it first 🙂
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23:12:35 <TallTyler> Need to stay realistic about my current abilities
23:12:36 <michi_cc[d]> I think I wanted to try YACD2 first. And if I ever get too bored :raymmuLOL: there's always my newmap branch .)
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23:15:28 <TallTyler> Yeah, my current feature project list is:
23:15:28 <TallTyler> 1. Time (adjustable date progression with separate economic time converted to real-time units)
23:15:28 <TallTyler> 2. Upstream autoseparation from JGRPP
23:15:28 <TallTyler> 3. Real-world map generation using GIS software and JSON imports
23:15:28 <TallTyler> Plus whatever else distracts me in the meantime 😛
23:20:20 <michi_cc[d]> Well, newmap is in the 80% (well, pretend 80% with the second 80% missing 🙂 ) done state since the 2010 party 🙂
23:20:49 <Pruple> 80% done, 80% to go? sounds like typical dev cycle
23:21:23 <michi_cc[d]> The 80% with 20% of the time and the 20% with 80% of the time.
23:22:06 <petern> Is there any performance output for it?
23:22:30 <petern> "Cargo handling" in the framerate GUI I guess.
23:23:29 <michi_cc[d]> Not really I think, as the linkgraph update code is background-threaded, so only becomes visible if the update takes longer than the allocated time. I didn't touch the actual cargopacket handling.
23:24:21 <michi_cc[d]> The other consumer is linkgraph overlay GUI, and I'm not sure how to measure that well.
23:32:10 <glx[d]> overlay is part of ViewportDoDraw() and included in PFE_DRAWWORLD measuring
23:32:35 <reldred> TallTyler: sorry was out and about, what's wrong with your reversing branch? won't merge with trunk?
23:33:04 <glx[d]> merge fine, but has bugs
23:34:43 <TallTyler> Has a crash I don’t know how to fix and after messing around with the shunting patch, I realized I don’t have the knowledge to fix it on my own
23:35:12 <TallTyler> Train movement isn’t one of those things where I can kludge together code until it seems to work
23:35:29 <TallTyler> It’s a project for later 🙂
23:35:48 <petern> Probably would be worth 'waiting' for this consist patch? (as an excuse at least)
23:36:04 <glx[d]> I think nobody want's to touch train movement 🙂
23:36:25 <glx[d]> there are some area like that in the code
23:36:26 <JGR> The lack of consists is one of the reasons why I fended off people trying to get me to look at the shunting patch
23:40:05 <petern> Weird, two OpenTTDs side by side, one is 0.04ms video output, the other is 0.51ms video output.
23:40:48 <petern> Oh, first is #10314, second is master. I somehow doubt it but...
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23:43:14 <petern> Probably not comparable 🙂
23:43:23 <michi_cc[d]> Well, how many stations are interconnected? A large linkgraph will complete trash L1/L2 caches, so maybe in actually does help indirectly with drawing by being more cache-efficient.
23:43:51 <petern> I, uh, took Wentbourne and enabled cargodist. Not a good test 🙂
23:43:58 <michi_cc[d]> Well, the less memory usage is definitely something expected.
23:45:01 <michi_cc[d]> Wentbourne isn't that interconnected, is it? So indeed not the greatest test case.
23:45:40 <Fairy> What's currently being worked on? Something to do with cargodist?
23:45:40 <petern> Dunno, might be all point to point?
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23:55:46 <reldred> I had my hopes up for actually being able to make terminus stations without throwing up in my mouth when a train magically reverses. I will continue to exclusively build roro's
continue to next day ⏵
