IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-11-19
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06:36:29 <pickpacket> do I *have to* use my github login for BaNaNaS?
06:40:13 <pickpacket> and should license and readme files be LICENSE.txt and README.txt, license.txt and readme.txt, or license.txt and Readme.txt, or any other variant thereof?
06:44:45 <debdog> what about tab vs. spaces?
06:50:18 <pickpacket> debdog: I want to package my NewGRF properly :) I have no idea how strict the limitations and requirements are
06:50:52 <pickpacket> pretty sure the tabs vs. spaces in the code files doesn't matter though, since only the .grf file is packaged ;)
07:06:05 <Pruple> yes you do, and I don't think it matters.
07:07:34 <Pruple> if you try to upload without a licence it will complain, so there's no risk of doing it wrong
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08:28:18 <andythenorth> Pruple: what settings did we have for NCG or deliverance, that would make a good 1.5 hour game for Jingle Jam?
08:50:50 <Pruple> Ncg, and depends on the newgrfs really
08:53:10 <Pruple> 20k in 7 years is a reasonable benchmark for firs/pirs mid century
08:53:22 <Pruple> Although that's more like 2 hours
08:53:42 <andythenorth> I suggested that it's more fun to lose then play again
08:53:50 <andythenorth> they normally play OpenTTD for 2-3 hours
08:54:08 <andythenorth> Lewis is in this server somewhere, but I don't know what nick 🙂
08:55:02 <Pruple> Could try 10k in 5 years? & Depends on industry grf. Probably needs much smaller goal for default industries.
08:56:01 <Pruple> Original NoCatGoal was 3k in 7 years or something
08:56:35 <andythenorth> could turn up gung ho in FIRS
08:58:10 <Pruple> Test game tonight? In some hours, not home rn
08:59:01 <andythenorth> although I might have to interrupt to go shopping or make lunch or stuff
08:59:50 <andythenorth> ha it's just Lewis I should have guessed 🙂
09:00:05 * andythenorth learns how to use discord
09:02:04 <Pruple> How much cord would a discord cord
09:11:21 <andythenorth> if a discord could cord disc
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09:54:21 <andythenorth> hmm what should we do today brainz?
09:57:03 <Pruple> I'll probably be home in an hour or so.
09:57:03 <Pruple> What's the trains du jour?
09:57:50 <Pruple> I always said there was something narsty in the woodshed
10:03:21 <andythenorth> /me plays badNorth
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10:06:00 <reldred> America horse America horse
10:09:51 <andythenorth> there is no spoon
10:17:47 <andythenorth> spoon is a foamer name for class 47
10:18:00 <andythenorth> I did consider reworking Iron Horse
10:18:06 <andythenorth> to be 512 class 47s
10:19:19 <pickpacket> andythenorth: what’s a NCG game?
10:19:50 * pickpacket is making lunch and tea
10:21:52 <andythenorth> Pruple: 13.0 beta? chunky bevels?
10:22:07 <andythenorth> and towns that don't needs trees 😛
10:22:54 <Pruple> Towns that don't need trees are good
10:23:32 <reldred> I need to do another horse game
10:23:36 <andythenorth> train 139 is more like gronk-gronk-gronk
10:23:38 <pickpacket> Uhm. So NCG is some kind of contest or..?
10:24:00 <reldred> I don't often play with sound
10:24:01 <pickpacket> I don’t understand the purpose of the limitations
10:24:09 <reldred> pitter patter pitter patter
10:55:50 <pickpacket> can someone recommend a vehicle set that adds just few more vehicles to the game? I'm just using the base ones and the generic tram set so far. Especially ships are quite boring
10:57:14 <andythenorth> only adds 858 vehicles, quite minimalist
11:14:11 <EmperorJake> For ships, maybe try NewShips if Shark/Sam are too much
11:15:07 <EmperorJake> For RVs, I often recommend Mop RV as it's in the vanilla style but there's a lot more choice, but it might be too extensive for what you're looking for
11:16:34 <andythenorth> there's always OGFX+ sets
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11:20:18 <andythenorth> idea for stupid game mechanic
11:20:33 <andythenorth> if the town is happy, station ratings increase
11:23:44 <petern> Post-ride protein bar for breakfast, oops
11:24:29 <pickpacket> andythenorth: what would make a city happy?
11:24:41 <andythenorth> petern: chunky industry colour blocks
11:25:21 <andythenorth> cargo flow ... should be chunky?
11:25:39 <andythenorth> pickpacket: delivering goods, food etc
11:26:05 <pickpacket> andythenorth: isn't that what increases station ratings though? :)
11:26:15 <andythenorth> I first considered giving industries an 'efficiency' factor, so that happy towns mean 100% efficient
11:26:27 <pickpacket> so increased station ratings -> increased happiness -> GOTO 1
11:26:38 <andythenorth> but the game already has a super awesome, elon musk level bestness of deleting 30% of cargo produced by industries 😛
11:26:41 <petern> pickpacket: To make the game fun, and short.
11:27:03 <petern> Which is needed for a live stream
11:27:19 <andythenorth> or for playing with friends
11:27:29 <petern> Either quick fun game, or long-term planning play
11:27:49 <petern> I don't have friends so that's ok
11:27:59 <andythenorth> petern: but you have us!
11:28:04 <andythenorth> it's like friends, but different
11:28:25 <andythenorth> I think we should change how we review PRs: there should be a heading for 'would Elon suggest this?'
11:28:35 <andythenorth> and all our PRs should require a screenshot of the actual code
11:29:44 <andythenorth> how about a message for 'prospecting failed'?
11:29:51 <andythenorth> I mean..it's obvious and all you can do is click again
11:29:55 <andythenorth> but sometimes it seems broken
11:31:06 <andythenorth> maybe we should have an animation popup
11:36:59 <Pruple> aces high, gronks wild?
11:37:05 <Pruple> dealer must stand on a box
11:40:23 <Pruple> firs with double enhanced/gung ho?
11:41:08 <andythenorth> Arctic Basic was the best badger?
11:41:32 <andythenorth> I should make it feature rudolph
11:42:09 <Pruple> transport 10k rudolphs in 5 years
11:42:21 <andythenorth> reindeer -> stockyard
11:45:31 <Pruple> glow in the dark rudolph sausages
11:45:55 <LordAro> is this still english?
11:46:57 <andythenorth> rudolph isn't English silly
11:47:09 <andythenorth> no reindeer wild in England
11:47:47 <petern> andythenorth: Bug report?
11:48:55 <andythenorth> looking if we have one already
11:48:59 <andythenorth> surprisingly, no
11:49:07 <Pruple> such road trains in mop rv
11:52:00 <petern> Is it totally random now?
11:52:45 <petern> I ache. Too old for cycling hard 😦
11:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow whenever someone mentions reindeer, my first thought is the "mom is santa" commercial
11:55:43 <andythenorth> petern: not sure, wonder if it does anything weird like favour tiles nearer the start of the map array
11:56:17 <andythenorth> 'prospect near' would be nice, but I could just do that in FIRS?
11:56:22 <Pruple> invariably the way I use prospect is to hit it a dozen times, then hit delete to close the message popups... I assume that's typical of most players
11:56:26 <andythenorth> 100% of players use FIRS, yes?
11:56:47 <Pruple> pro players use XIS, it is more
11:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: more like 0.1%
11:57:29 <Pruple> so I put a server up if you want to see if this works
11:57:37 <andythenorth> but we won't fix anything in the game if it can be fixed in grf
11:57:50 <andythenorth> so 99.9% of players can't access fixes?
11:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think how newgrf could solve that in a reasonable way
11:58:02 <andythenorth> I should get headphones for words
11:58:04 <Pruple> server is "the five year plan", password is rudolph
11:58:13 <Pruple> words is here or on other server?
11:59:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (also, it's not a fix, it's a feature request)
11:59:49 <andythenorth> Pruple: your server?
11:59:55 <andythenorth> otherwise we get people trying to talk?
12:00:21 <Pruple> I think I've actually got it set up correctly this time so I can hear you too
12:01:35 <andythenorth> oh missing grfs 😦
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13:17:16 <petern> I do, of course, have a patch for that.
13:20:24 <petern> Yeah, if (player == andythenorth) lose();
13:23:21 <Pruple> if only they were bevels
13:25:39 <andythenorth> Pruple: back in 5 mins probly
13:25:50 <Pruple> okay, server is up again
13:25:59 <Pruple> going to get coffee or something
13:26:30 <Pruple> scrubbles: can build the trams this time
13:26:38 <ag[d]> Which FIRS economy is this one
13:29:55 <andythenorth> be better competitive
13:31:37 <andythenorth> takes about an hour or so
13:35:44 <andythenorth> also 13.0 beta 2 when? 😛
13:35:50 <andythenorth> can't be looking at these non-bevels any more
13:38:49 <petern> When I PR these changes
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13:40:24 <Pruple> server is up, 5 years full conk
13:44:56 <andythenorth> petern: join the server pls
13:45:05 <andythenorth> needs to be chunkier
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14:21:22 <andythenorth> if yogscast audience could donate to plant objects
14:21:34 <andythenorth> they could pay to ruin the game on the stream
14:21:45 <andythenorth> by filling the map in with unremovables
14:22:05 <andythenorth> can we make that possible?
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14:25:07 <dP> should already be possible
14:25:16 <andythenorth> via the admin port...
14:25:32 <dP> donations -> admin port -> gs -> objects
14:28:15 <dP> I should add that to citymania and sell servers 😜
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14:30:01 <andythenorth> or for charity 😛
14:30:13 <andythenorth> I wanted to write Elon in the sea
14:30:37 <Pruple> andy you broke openttd
14:30:41 <andythenorth> I deleted an object
14:31:25 <Pruple> and it desynced everyone on the server... oops 🙂
14:31:43 <andythenorth> I am good at breaking things
14:31:55 <dP> I don't even see the server now is it still running?
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15:18:39 <TallTyler> andythenorth: I’ll be around most of today and tomorrow if you want to chat about Jingle Jam stuff
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18:14:48 <TallTyler> Did you resolve your jingle questions?
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18:17:25 <andythenorth> started, didn't finish 🙂
18:17:49 <TallTyler> Still need my help?
18:18:07 <TallTyler> Ok, just let me know 🙂
18:18:12 <andythenorth> wanted to pass on that Lewis had played IotC also and thought it was fun 🙂
18:18:29 <andythenorth> said it was fun to see the game changed so much
18:18:31 <pickpacket> I have three trams running the same line between two stations. They tend to lump up. What do I do to space them out evenly?
18:18:51 <andythenorth> ok so JJ game settings suggestion is in hand
18:19:01 <andythenorth> but the idea of encouraging donations by game actions
18:19:04 <andythenorth> via the admin port
18:19:11 <andythenorth> but I have NFI how that is done
18:20:12 <andythenorth> or something like it
18:20:50 <andythenorth> also whether we could post out e.g. GS results from the game to the feed
18:21:30 <TallTyler> Me neither, but there might be possibilities besides spamming objects (which would also require choosing a tile to place said object on). Donate $n to have a train named after your username (to avoid rude names), perhaps
18:22:42 <TallTyler> $2 to change the company colour
18:22:49 <dP> there are servers that post results in the discord
18:23:15 <dP> I could do that too just don't want
18:23:33 <TallTyler> Can it go the other way, to make changes in the game?
18:24:22 <dP> well, idk how to do that "officially" via admin port either
18:24:29 <dP> but with patched server it's np
18:24:36 <andythenorth> yes renaming vehicles and renaming towns would be a thing
18:24:42 <andythenorth> they've done towns before, manually
18:25:08 <andythenorth> rude messages, they're not very worried, they can always fix
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18:28:40 <andythenorth> dP: offer a patched server for jingle jam? 😛
18:28:50 <andythenorth> can GS read from the web?
18:29:06 <andythenorth> would be quite an attack vector 😛
18:30:19 <pickpacket> m3henry: yeah, but they seem really fiddly and prone to f-ups. :/ I wish there was a "space vehicles sharing orders evenly"
18:30:49 <TallTyler> I wonder how difficult it would be (not for this year’s stream of course) to have some kind of public spectator mode where the spectator limit doesn’t apply and spectators can’t even send messages. Like a web server running a read-only copy of the game. Synchronizing would probably be an issue…
18:30:53 <m3henry> train fever / transport fever does that for all vehicles on a route that don't have a load until full order
18:31:09 <andythenorth> TallTyler: would be interesting
18:31:24 <andythenorth> I wondered about 'play against YC' mode, but sharded, with a web high score table
18:31:28 <andythenorth> but we don't have time 😛
18:32:06 <andythenorth> multiple servers, all synchronised to start game ~simultaneously
18:33:17 <Olionkey> speaking of jingle jam stuff I think Klutz was recommending some stuff to the Spiffing brit team
18:33:57 <TallTyler> They’d have to be separate games without a ghost mode to avoid building on the same tile, but would totally be possible. I think Master Hellish does that with some of his series
18:34:06 <andythenorth> a long time ago, when GS was invented, frosch was tracking high scores in the wiki
18:34:25 <andythenorth> but it would be quite nice to have a monthly GS game running
18:34:39 <andythenorth> multiple servers, anybody can join and start any time
18:34:43 <TallTyler> Official monthly challenge?
18:34:46 <andythenorth> short GS games, a few hours
18:34:48 <pickpacket> is the spiff going to play OpenTTD for this year's JJ?
18:34:56 <TallTyler> Like Mini Metro daily challenge?
18:35:06 <andythenorth> probably something like that
18:35:20 <TallTyler> Sounds like something nobody would want to maintain 😛
18:35:34 <andythenorth> pickpacket, I don't know who's playing but OpenTTD will be the JJ opener
18:35:51 <pickpacket> When and where can I watch it?
18:36:01 <pickpacket> I.e. watch someone streaming the event
18:37:17 <dP> andythenorth: I'd like to but wouldn't be able to code things before 1 dec
18:37:52 <dP> TallTyler: that's pretty easy actually, just send the game and all network commands to the web
18:38:07 <dP> I was thinking of doing it but tmwftlb
18:38:23 <TallTyler> Timetable separation exists in JGRPP but nobody has taken the time to upstream it to vanilla yet. It’s on my list of things I want to do eventually.
18:39:57 <dP> andythenorth: that's kinda like citymania works except map is random because doesn't matter much and it's nice to have some variety
18:40:02 <dP> can always make it the same ofc
18:41:16 <dP> was also thinking of making some monthly challenges as well xD
18:41:57 <andythenorth> how does Citymania work? 😮
18:42:18 <andythenorth> I only ever talked to you about gameplay stuff / patches, not how Citymania runs challenges
18:42:36 <andythenorth> so does everyone get the same map, but play async?
18:43:04 <andythenorth> yeah I saw those before 🙂
18:43:12 <dP> map is different but it's generated in a way that it doesn't matter much
18:43:23 <dP> you can beat highscores on pretty much every map
18:43:41 <dP> i.e. all towns are generated with the same number of houses in cb
18:45:58 <andythenorth> monthly GS game 😛
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18:46:58 <dP> I did some events on citymania but they weren't very popular :(
18:48:02 <dP> well, I also played just didn't include in scores xD
18:49:06 <dP> was trying hard not to win my own event but failed 🤣
18:49:47 <andythenorth> nobody here ever wants to join our Pruple games either 😛
18:50:10 <Olionkey> Most people just join the jgr servers
18:50:19 <dP> cargo goals are kinda boring imo
18:58:24 <TallTyler> I’d join if you didn’t play in the middle of the night 😛
19:02:31 <andythenorth> TallTyler: asynchronous challenge server 😛
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19:07:00 <petern> Heh, so when you toggle the cheat, the lines become taller, and so does the panel, as expected. The unexpected bit is it eats into the viewport widget rather than adjusting the window size 😄
19:07:30 <andythenorth> then if you toggle the cheat off
19:07:39 <andythenorth> the viewport remains smaller
19:08:08 <andythenorth> ^ Zorg is right 1 in 10 times, this is one of them 😛
19:11:22 <andythenorth> no idea what that's about
19:14:38 <TallTyler> Oh, maybe it’s about the rating still changing even though it no longer restricts company actions
19:15:26 <TallTyler> As for the order of the settings, I guess I could do some saveload magic to re-order the settings?
19:17:57 <JGR> That creates issues with openttd.cfg
19:18:48 <JGR> It's much simpler overall to just populate the dropdown in a different order with the same values
19:21:31 <andythenorth> abstracting dropdowns for order is probably the major part of any UI engineering job 😛
19:22:02 <andythenorth> 95% of my grf code is just about controlling the order of things 😛
19:22:41 <JGR> It's really not a major thing to re-order dropdowns
19:23:21 <andythenorth> in my life, it's usually one line of code 😛
19:23:40 <andythenorth> often said, but rarely true 😛
19:24:41 <TallTyler> Is that true in OpenTTD though? I thought the only dropdown control we have is the flag in the `_settings.ini` file
19:25:04 <JGR> You're allowed to add more flags
19:25:17 <JGR> You have commit powers now, be bold 😛
19:25:37 <petern> That... doesn't change much 🙂
19:25:52 <TallTyler> Is there an example of manually ordered dropdowns anywhere else in the game?
19:26:40 <JGR> Most of them outside the settings window
19:27:00 <petern> It's just a vector of some *ListItems
19:27:53 <JGR> For what it's worth I've got various settings with re-ordered or discontinuous values in my branch, it is useful at times
19:29:51 <TallTyler> I’ll have to take a look at how you’ve implemented that
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21:30:04 <petern> 16TB HDD should be enough right?
21:38:16 <andythenorth> "1GB will never get filled"
21:38:20 <andythenorth> first computer I owned
21:38:29 <andythenorth> 3 months -> full
21:51:58 <peter1138> That 16MB memory upgrade was expensive too
21:53:00 <andythenorth> mine was 32MB I think
21:56:58 <andythenorth> hmm do I need 64GB RAM?
21:59:18 <petern> I have it and don't need it.
21:59:39 <petern> Mainly because I haven't loaded MS Flight Simulator or X-Plane for months.
22:00:06 <petern> I also used to use a Linux VM for developing but that was pointless.
22:00:30 <petern> Something happened to HyperV that made GUI stuff slow, so working on OpenTTD was unpleasant...
22:01:24 <andythenorth> hmm GS can't set station rating
22:01:33 <andythenorth> and the grf API only has access to shit vars 🙂
22:01:55 <andythenorth> I want higher station ratings for my company if I deliver beer to the town
22:02:02 <andythenorth> 'because that makes complete sense'
22:02:18 <andythenorth> Extend GS you say
22:02:22 <andythenorth> I have done it before 😛
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22:19:08 <reldred> honestly i'm still surprised how much bullshit my 2016 i5 mbp at work is tolerating from me
22:19:13 <reldred> I mean it has 16gb of ram
22:19:23 <reldred> but I generally always have a tonne of crap running
22:19:27 <petern> My Linux laptop has... 3GB 😦
22:19:30 <petern> It can't even run VS Code.
22:19:49 <petern> Black-Friday, you say?
22:19:51 <reldred> I've generally always got vs code, azure data studio, gns3, outlook,
22:19:53 * dwfreed shifts eyes at late 2013 i7 mbp sitting next to him >.> <.<
22:20:01 <reldred> tonnes of browsers open
22:20:06 <reldred> like 200 tabs in edge
22:20:21 <reldred> which seems to be very good at backgrounding and unloading unused tabs from memory which I appreciate
22:20:30 <dwfreed> it is on its second top-case replacement
22:20:44 <dwfreed> and most likely its last
22:21:28 <petern> Intel Celeron laptop, yeah, that'll be good :/
22:22:18 <petern> ZenBook with 4K OLED screen? Dunno
22:23:44 <petern> None of these are Apple M2
22:24:05 <petern> Which is the only CPU that can run Wentbourne at full speed 😉
22:26:02 <andythenorth> 16GB is nowhere near enough for Chrome
22:26:15 <andythenorth> it uses 500MB + per tab
22:26:29 <andythenorth> and Firefox often wants 100 GB just for a few windows
22:26:40 <glx[d]> windows eats as much ram as it can
22:26:47 <petern> Nobody discounts synthesizers for this Black Friday thing.
22:27:23 <petern> Oh cock, I was waiting for OpenTTD to compile... I hadn't started it 😦
22:28:29 <andythenorth> we used to have `make run`
22:29:02 <glx[d]> I just press the button in VS
22:29:17 <glx[d]> builds if needed then run
22:43:36 <petern> That was the button I didn't press.
22:44:46 <dwfreed> andythenorth: I have 37 tabs open, whole system is using about 7 GB
22:48:27 <glx[d]> 9200MB used, 7100MB on standby, almost no free RAM
22:48:43 <dwfreed> free ram is wasted ram
22:49:07 <glx[d]> standby is available if needed
22:49:10 <dwfreed> on linux, the 'available' column in 'free' output is what you want to look at
22:49:48 <glx[d]> but sometimes that doesn't work very well and I need to manually free standby
23:02:41 <petern> I'm amazed how slow Task Manager is.
23:40:00 <camthesaxman> The UI is a vast improvement over the XP one, but it's a lot slower.
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