IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-10-11
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02:27:09 <someindianguy99> Morning folks!
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07:50:05 <petern> Digging up the old ones 😄
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08:08:21 <petern> I think those preview buttons need some limits 😄
08:10:10 <petern> Might be this one causing that?
08:13:45 <EmperorJake> Ah that's why they're so big
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08:52:47 <Brickblock1> they are using firs
08:53:05 <Brickblock1> but probably something other than that too
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10:04:12 <andythenorth> reminds me I should meet Lewis about Jingle Jam
10:04:40 <LordAro> "FIRS is sponsored by the Yogscast"
10:05:35 * andythenorth does some email admin
10:05:42 <pickpacket> I thought FIRS was a more or less gigantic mod with dozens of new industries
10:05:54 <andythenorth> you're not wrong
10:06:09 <LordAro> andythenorth: are you some sort of authority on the subject?
10:06:24 <andythenorth> I'm just a dabbler
10:06:42 <pickpacket> Are several people working on FIRS?
10:07:07 <andythenorth> it used to be collaborative
10:07:11 <LordAro> arguably all the OTTD devs :p
10:07:12 <andythenorth> but I am not very easy to collaborate with 🙂
10:07:23 <andythenorth> but there are contributions from others
10:07:30 <andythenorth> Jake just drew new cargo icons for example
10:07:59 <andythenorth> and FIRS does tend to influence grf stuff
10:08:06 <pickpacket> Hmm. I’ll have to look that up. How to add cargo icons with nml
10:08:32 <EmperorJake> I'm currently working on XIS2
10:08:44 <andythenorth> pickpacket do you think you'd be able to get a FIRS build working?
10:08:55 <andythenorth> needs a dev environment with python + make
10:12:12 <EmperorJake> It's worth learning Andy's code, I now know how to add new cargos and industries (unlike XIS1 where I just renamed/reskinned existing stuff)
10:16:37 <pickpacket> andythenorth: probably. Focusing on my tea grf for now though
10:21:54 <andythenorth> it's not necessarily that you want to FIRSes
10:22:05 <petern> Hmm, anyone object if I removed the separate 'Interface size' and 'Font size' options? It doesn't work brilliantly and causes a few issues.
10:22:15 <andythenorth> it's just easier to read the compiled nml, compared to me doing 'gist paste as a service' 😛
10:22:32 <andythenorth> petern: I didn't like the split personally, but there might have been reasons?
10:23:01 <andythenorth> I don't understand how scaling font without scaling interface is supposed to work
10:23:08 <andythenorth> no other UI framework I've seen can do such a thing
10:23:25 <andythenorth> but it might be a platform specific thing I don't understand
10:23:50 <petern> Pretty sure it was me who added it.
10:24:13 <petern> I wouldn't mind a font-selector though, even if it doesn't preview.
10:24:43 * andythenorth has pre-lunch snack
10:25:40 <petern> Anyway, in my branch I already removed the split, heh.
10:34:32 <LordAro> original justification (#6918) seems to have been high-dpi related
10:34:46 <LordAro> which i think has since been fixed separately?
10:35:24 <petern> I don't think so, basically the complaint is that the buttons become too large when you want larger text.
10:35:43 <petern> However most window layouts go to shit when you change them separately anyway.
10:37:14 <petern> andythenorth: was right in the original "bug", the user wanted a bigger interface without making the interface bigger.
10:41:16 <petern> I merged it, but didn't create it 😄
10:41:24 <petern> Semi-responsible for bad ideas...
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12:30:32 <petern> Solved it, I've got a coffee 😄
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13:07:12 <pickpacket> while those buildings are actually pretty accurate to reality I feel that I want the tea manufacturing in the game to feel just a tad bit more glamorous.
13:08:05 <pickpacket> but... these are a little too sterile:
13:13:30 <andythenorth> pickpacket (1) mesh patterns as used on the roof - they don't work for buildings generally (they are useful on vehicles) (2) try dividing the walls into segments, with vertical dividers
13:13:33 <andythenorth> I'll find examples
13:15:27 <andythenorth> vertical and horizontal panel dividers
13:16:14 <andythenorth> if you wanted a more rural feel
13:17:02 <andythenorth> also it helps to compress reality a bit
13:17:07 <andythenorth> like a Lego town building
13:17:52 <andythenorth> some of the FIRS stuff is a bit Escher-ish, chimneys or silos are in places they couldn't actually be if it was a 3D model
13:17:55 <andythenorth> but it looks right
13:22:09 <pickpacket> I think I need to make the roof different in general... something just doesn't look alright with the angles
13:22:34 <andythenorth> yup, don't worry about making them realistic
13:22:41 <andythenorth> the game is on odd dimetric projection anyway
13:23:10 <andythenorth> take the horizontal line between the 2 sides of the roof, then extend pixels up towards an apex
13:23:13 <andythenorth> see where they meet
13:23:54 <andythenorth> you want slopes to be "1 up, 1 across", or "1 up, 2 across" or "straight across"
13:23:59 <andythenorth> anything else looks strange
13:24:31 <andythenorth> occasionally there's fancy stuff, but it's hard to make it work
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13:34:54 <pickpacket> that's better I think. Now off to get kiddos
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13:56:07 <petern> When do we add economy simulation?
13:57:21 <petern> Employees going strike because you don't pay them enough...
13:57:50 <petern> Customers boycotting you because you built HS 2 on their gardens.
14:01:48 <petern> How do I make a gamescript? 😄
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14:19:10 <andythenorth> How do you not give up making a GS because it’s a pain in the arse to develop? 😝
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14:45:54 <petern> I really need a non-random random playlist...
14:52:29 <andythenorth> Maybe a GS dev GS
14:53:03 <andythenorth> We misss a trick that GS can import other GS 🙂
14:53:27 <andythenorth> Turtles all the way down 😛
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15:37:00 <petern> Widgets all the way down
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16:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm kinda stuck... ages ago i saved my github password, but since github removed password support, i need to reset this, but i can't find where it is stored
16:05:46 <petern> When I sign in to github it asks for a password...
16:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean when i "git push" in a shell
16:06:55 <LordAro> well that's the same password...
16:07:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't change it
16:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> because it doesn't ask for it
16:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it uses the stored one
16:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> which doesn't work anymore
16:08:06 <LordAro> and i guess you haven't got it saved in your browser?
16:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not the point
16:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i need to put the new password in.
16:09:17 <petern> might be in `~/.git-credentials`
16:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't exist
16:09:40 <petern> Or `git config credential.helper`
16:09:48 <LordAro> ~/.config/git/credentials
16:10:30 <LordAro> strace -eopenat git push
16:10:50 <dwfreed> this is why you use ssh
16:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure where that would help anyone
16:12:08 <dwfreed> you can't use password auth at all with ssh
16:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. and that would help me how 5 years ago?
16:12:54 <petern> You can, but not with github.
16:12:59 <dwfreed> github has supported ssh since inception
16:13:13 <LordAro> i'm still not clear what exactly the problem is
16:13:38 <dwfreed> you can also change remote URIs from https to ssh
16:13:55 <dwfreed> git remote set-url origin git@github.com:whoever/whatever
16:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i remember: once upon a time i made a "git push" and it asked a password, and i gave the password, and it asked me to save the password
16:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and then i never thought about passwords anymore
16:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> until github changed things
16:14:31 <petern> Just go for a password reset, tbh.
16:14:51 <dwfreed> the issue is github no longer accepts basic password auth for https pushes
16:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> then i went on github and generated a token
16:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and now i have nowhere to put that token
16:15:23 <petern> I thought you meant you lost your password.
16:15:28 <petern> Yeah, change the remote URL.
16:16:10 <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i can tell credential.helper is not used
16:16:41 <petern> Ignore that, as dwfreed said, use set-url to change the remote.
16:17:40 <LordAro> (may require adding a pubkey to github, if you haven't done that previously)
16:17:48 <dwfreed> credential.helper indicates what tool is used to retrieve credentials; if it is not set, then git has a list of things it tries; see the gitcredentials man page
16:18:04 <petern> Ignore me, I use https too, and it does still work.
16:18:44 <dwfreed> petern: you are probably already using an access token instead of your GH password
16:20:10 <petern> Are you on Windows, Eddi?
16:23:24 <petern> does `git config --system credential.helper` say anything?
16:23:39 <petern> All the things say disable it temporarily, heh.
16:25:05 <dwfreed> leave off --system, in case it's configured in the user config
16:25:51 <dwfreed> (or even the repo config, but that's significantly less likely)
16:25:52 <petern> That's what I said first and the response was it's not used.
16:26:08 <dwfreed> it is used, as I said
16:26:15 <dwfreed> 2022-10-11 16:17:48 < dwfreed> credential.helper indicates what tool is used to retrieve credentials; if it is not set, then git has a list of things it tries; see the gitcredentials man page
16:27:11 <dwfreed> I saw that, and I'm saying that's wrong
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16:32:34 <dwfreed> git ships with 2 credential helpers, cache and store; the default for credential.helper is generally empty, though, in which case git uses $GIT_ASKPASS, the program specified by config core.askPass, $SSH_ASKPASS, or direct prompting
16:32:54 <dwfreed> KDE for example may set $SSH_ASKPASS to point to a kwallet helper
16:33:29 <dwfreed> in which case the credential would be stored in kwallet
16:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, that seems to be it
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17:33:15 <andythenorth> I think I need a beer
17:34:40 <petern> Maybe I should go outside.
17:36:17 <andythenorth> I went outside today
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17:42:06 <andythenorth> it was pretty good today
17:42:15 <andythenorth> had a look at the bridge
17:46:20 <andythenorth> it's never a bad view, although the balloons were missing today
17:47:18 <petern> > Prime Early Access Sale: Long sleeve tee-shirt, only £20!
17:47:36 <petern> > Oh not for you, that's £100
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18:45:31 <wallabra> I wound up doing two two-way railways: one for fast EMUs, and the other for the slower freight trains. I also used waypoints to designate those in their orders. Is there a better way to do what I want? https://imgur.com/fSGLZRr.png
18:47:30 <FLHerne> wallabra: not really, the same solution exists IRL
18:47:50 <FLHerne> pairing by direction rather than speed can make junction layouts easier sometimes
18:48:17 <wallabra> Ah, so an "outer ring" of slow rails and an "inner ring" of fast rails?
18:48:20 <wallabra> Dang, I should've done that lol
18:49:01 <wallabra> Is there ever a scenario in which I could want three speed tiers? Or is that overkill?
18:49:19 <FLHerne> and that also exists :p
18:49:47 <FLHerne> West Coast Mainline between London and Watford has six tracks; express, slow and very-slow
18:49:59 <FLHerne> (paired by speed in that case)
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18:50:39 <FLHerne> you can avoid the need for extra tracks with clever timetabling
18:50:51 <FLHerne> I find that ends up being too much micromanagement, but some people like it
18:51:04 <wallabra> atm I just use jgrpp's automatic timetabling
18:51:20 <FLHerne> or build shorter passing loops so the fast trains can overtake sometimes
18:51:56 <wallabra> interesting, so kinda like road vehicles
18:52:08 <wallabra> so I just do a brief split-merge lane, kinda like a pit stop
18:52:37 <wallabra> I think two tiers are sufficient for now. I don't want to blow up the infrastructure costs!
18:52:39 <FLHerne> works better if you put a prio merge
18:52:58 <FLHerne> (or again with careful timetabling)
18:53:06 <wallabra> So the overtake lane has no path signal before the merge?
18:53:12 <wallabra> Just one right after the split
18:53:42 <wallabra> 'Cause I can imagine if the main lane has a signal right before the merge with the overtake, a train will wait at it if there is a fast overtake train.
18:53:54 <wallabra> Mm, but if the train is faster..
18:54:13 <FLHerne> just playing with signal spacing works sometimes, but it can backfire annoyingly if the timing isn't quite right
18:54:58 <FLHerne> and force the fast train to stop when it didn't need to
18:57:09 <wallabra> I just use path signals
18:57:36 <FLHerne> there's a reason the other ones are hidden by default now
18:57:54 <FLHerne> priority merges are about the one reasonably sane use for block signals IMO
18:58:20 <FLHerne> you don't really have to understand *why* it works, just build it :p
18:58:35 <FLHerne> (I only use the 'simple' kind, not the ones with an extra track)
18:58:47 <wallabra> they're kind of mindboggling!
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19:01:21 <petern> It's all a load of bollocks
19:01:41 <petern> But that's as far as I go 😄
19:01:57 <wallabra> On another note, I'd love to be able to link trams together, to make a tram-train kinda thing. Why? Because when delivering freight to cities, I use trams to move them from the train station to the downtowns – one for mail, one for food, and one for goods! It would be convenient if they stuck together so they would cause less of a ruckus, like stopping the passenger trams.
19:02:30 <wallabra> FLHerne, it's heightwise taller than my screen! (1366x768)
19:03:03 <FLHerne> wallabra: HEQS has some nice long high-capacity trams
19:03:14 <wallabra> FLHerne, more specifically, multiple different cargo types.
19:03:22 <wallabra> It's not so much the capacity that is the problem :)
19:04:22 <wallabra> I wonder how complicated freight is delivered to downtowns. Railways that cross into the city? There isn't a good way to do that in the game, of coure.
19:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the good news: it actually works now :)
19:05:13 <dwfreed> IRL, generally that would be intermodal
19:05:15 <FLHerne> these days, mostly lots of trucks :-(
19:05:40 <FLHerne> historically there were often lots of interesting urban goods yards and branches
19:08:57 <wallabra> That would be interesting
19:09:08 <wallabra> I'd love to do something like that
19:29:41 <petern> Merge commit == probably not right
19:40:49 <andythenorth> I do like a merge commit
19:49:04 <petern> Hmm, I wonder if chunky-or-not bevels should influence widget size.
19:49:46 <petern> Currently not, the allocated space is the same, just the bevel is drawn either thin or thick.
19:50:40 <glx[d]> as long as there's enough room around text/icon
19:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> petern: i clicked a wrong button... need to undo that
20:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it think i broke it
20:01:30 <petern> If you're pressing buttons to use git, that's probably the mistake 🙂
20:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't done this for a while...
20:06:45 <glx[d]> looks like your commit is now inserted inside master, and not on top
20:09:27 <petern> `git rebase -i master ufo` then drop everything that isn't your commit.
20:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so at least i got back where i started
20:11:43 <petern> You can always get back where you started, just that might be before you committed anything...
20:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's easier when you can scroll up in your console to find the right hash :)
20:15:07 <petern> `git reflog` but I tend to think if you've reach that then you need to rethink 😉
20:15:34 <Eddi|zuHause> my googling was just short of that option :)
20:16:36 <petern> I wonder if I could/should hack in sprite size overrides. Hmm.
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20:19:11 <petern> Although all the original main toolbar buttons are meant to be 20x20 pixels (22x22 including the bevel), the sprites aren't all 20x20.
20:20:32 <glx[d]> main issue is zbase/abase big toolbar sprites using ottdextra tram sprite
20:22:10 <petern> I'm not too worried about zbase/abase, they always look arse anyway.
20:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so, that looks like the correct rebase
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20:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> petern: not quite sure i understand which problem you're trying to solve there
20:43:46 <petern> Bias, which is the problem you are trying to solve.
20:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but are you talking about the original bias, or the remaining bias after my changes?
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20:46:34 <petern> There will still be bias remaining with your change, so it seems more of a half-fix/kluge than a solution. I'm not suggesting you do any of the things I've written, it's just discussion on the topic as raised. I guess.
20:46:56 <Eddi|zuHause> to get it exactly even, you could loop the map twice, first counting the total number of rail tiles, and the second time after a random number of steps (0..total-1)
20:47:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there will still be bias with my change, but it should be way less visible
20:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is "check annotations"?
20:56:17 <glx[d]> warnings and other things
20:59:45 <glx[d]> but I need to check (and upgrade stuff it seems)
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21:32:16 <andythenorth> ooof such sleep time
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22:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> goes it throw out limitation?
23:38:07 <wallabra> what do you guys use for scenic cities and roads?
23:57:40 <FLHerne> I like TaI Houses, does clever stuff to limit town growth rate
23:58:56 <FLHerne> also it's pretty good at keeping the city core / outer / low-density suburbs appearance as towns grow, whereas other building sets seem to produce featureless sprawl
23:59:18 <FLHerne> UK Roadset is my favourite aesthetically, but predates roadtypes
23:59:37 <FLHerne> don't know what the best roadtypes set is
23:59:52 <wallabra> I think for that I use Renewed World Disorder
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