IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-10-07
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08:14:05 <NGC3982> bigyihsuan: the same for me
08:14:49 <NGC3982> im not sure how it works now, but if you searched for openttd in the steam it suggested factorio
08:15:11 <NGC3982> i guess algorithmically
08:16:29 <NGC3982> < wallabra> OpenTTD is a gateway drug into ______ <- kerbal space program, factorio, cities skylines, stellaris, oxygen not included, space haven, stardew valley, heroes iii and banished
08:17:00 <NGC3982> most of these are very far from each other, but it's almost always at least one favourite among them in openttd players
08:17:04 <NGC3982> at least in my findings
08:40:32 <petern> I never got into any of those.
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10:13:44 <petern> (I bought some with the intention of, but no...)
10:14:34 <petern> Minecraft, on the other hand, god that was a time-sink.
10:15:25 <LordAro> AoE2 & Minecraft have historically been my massive gaming timesinks
10:16:14 <LordAro> I've played a lot of KSP, Factorio & CoD4 in my time too
10:16:25 <petern> Doom, Quake and Unreal Tournament back in the day.
10:17:12 <petern> And Duke Nukem 3D of course
10:17:21 <petern> And Civilization (the original)
10:18:00 <petern> My favourite pasttime is trying to remember all the games I used to play and then forgot about...
10:19:52 <LordAro> (it is not a coincidence that it was my first Civ)
10:20:28 <petern> It was definitely better than Civ1, but I don't think I played as much of it.
10:20:42 <LordAro> I have extremely fond memories of prolonging the WW2 scenario into the 70s and trying to crush the Russians (as England)
10:20:49 <LordAro> difficult, as it turns out
10:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i think civ2 and civ4 i played most
10:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> out of the civ series i mean
10:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played much of civ since i found eu4
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15:00:25 <petern> Shoop da woop, new cycling shoes 😄
15:01:42 <petern> 8,950 km so far this year.
15:13:22 <petern> Alright, how do I play with timetables and try to spread vehicles out?
15:19:02 <LordAro> i believe you need to ctrl+click something
15:21:55 <petern> Heh, "Google Pixel Watch" with Fitbit... sounds okay... "24 hour battery" oh no, fuck that.
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16:29:53 <petern> Oh right, it's pissing down 😦
16:43:13 <petern> Urgh, our fallback glyph system is... suboptimal.
16:43:26 <petern> Missing a single glyph? Sure, we'll completely drop that font.
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16:47:19 <andythenorth> all or nothing 🙂
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18:49:24 <petern> Hmm, this fallback font is quite nice, except it's monospaced.
19:02:59 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:22:36 <wallabra> What if sometimes, industries that are well supplied, have "settlements" formed around them? Tiny cities that are initially unnamed, and after a certain threshold of people gain a name.
19:23:15 <wallabra> It would make sense if that name is somehow vaguely related to the industry, and maybe the industry would rename itself to match the settlement's?
19:37:45 <pickpacket> Start accepting passengers, mail, and goods?
19:39:44 <supermop_toil> wallabra: there is a bit of a chicken and egg issue there
19:40:54 <supermop_toil> as you usually dont build a factory unless there is at least some workforce nearby already
19:41:19 <supermop_toil> but then a workforce doesn't relocate somewhere unless there is a supply of jobs there
19:53:01 <wallabra> supermop_toil, yes but map generation will always have some initial industries and cities so it's not really a problem
19:53:24 <wallabra> the settlement would not be creating workforce where there is none; it could be seen as splitting off cities that are further away, like as if to shorten the commute
19:55:19 <supermop_toil> i just mean there is a bit of a rabbit hole to chase down
20:10:41 <wallabra> yeah but it's a fun one
20:10:49 <wallabra> if you have the organization to keep the notes
20:15:41 <petern> LordAro, Ctrl-Click on "Start date"
20:16:24 <petern> (Which is conspicuous with its lowercase d, when every other button is title-case.
20:19:32 <petern> And yeah, boom. They are given timetable spacing, but not in an order that's useful.
20:21:03 <petern> Send to depot, assign start dates, then manually start them in the right order. Works but is clumsy. I'm missing something
20:21:50 <petern> Yup, I'm missing something. Got to reset their order position too.
20:23:10 <andythenorth> does it actually work?
20:23:13 <andythenorth> I never saw it work
20:24:30 <petern> If they get out of sync it's messy
20:25:04 <andythenorth> the JGRPP version works, if someone explains which buttons to click
20:25:16 <andythenorth> there is a PR somewhere for another version that *nearly* works
20:25:26 <petern> It works but it's micromanaging
20:25:51 <andythenorth> you're supposed to reset it every time you add vehicles or something
20:25:55 <andythenorth> and if there is traffic
20:26:17 <andythenorth> or if loading is taking too long
20:26:27 <andythenorth> basically, as far as I can tell, it's a tool to make you click on things
20:26:53 <andythenorth> most of the problems it's supposed to solve are fixed by 'turning off cargodist'
20:27:22 <petern> The "auto-filled" timetable has the issue that it is never possible to make up time if it's running late
20:27:34 <petern> And there's no option to delay for a cycle
20:27:40 <andythenorth> I have asked how that's supposed to work, but apparently it's fine
20:27:57 <andythenorth> you're supposed to check timetable performance frequently and adjust your trip times
20:28:06 <petern> So you need to manually extended the travelling time to allow for delays
20:28:24 <andythenorth> yeah, you have to pad
20:28:29 <petern> And perhaps add a stop at a depot to allow out-of-order vehicles to get back in order.
20:28:32 <andythenorth> which you're supposed to provide via manual adjustment
20:28:49 <andythenorth> I think if you do 'send to depot' to replace vehicles, it goes to shit also 🙂
20:29:13 <andythenorth> not wanting to denigrate anyone's work 🙂
20:29:20 <andythenorth> just not our finest collective achievement
20:29:32 <andythenorth> I don't supposed we can say TTDP invented it?
20:29:51 <petern> I think last time I mentioned this thing someone said that the alternative "did all the work" for you or something, and that was bad.
20:32:26 <petern> Okay, you CAN'T make them wait in a depot 😦
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20:34:01 <petern> "Reset Late Counter" will guarantee they're no longer synced
20:35:49 <andythenorth> then ask which buttons to press
20:35:53 <andythenorth> then observe it working
20:37:45 <petern> Double-clicking a go-to stop should open up the Time input, not deselect and reselect.
20:38:19 <petern> Hmm, and Travel time. That has the additional option of a speed limit because why not...
20:38:40 <andythenorth> sometimes people suggest good gameplay ideas, but I fear the UI we'd build 😛
20:38:47 <andythenorth> the track record is 'interesting'
20:39:51 <petern> Good point. At least the timetable UI still works (as well as it did) with chunky bevels
20:40:13 <andythenorth> pls send your PR 😛
20:40:22 <andythenorth> my bevels are unwantedly skinny
20:41:06 <petern> I would but it's horrifying.
20:42:02 <andythenorth> I was doing Iron Euro Horse
20:42:05 <andythenorth> now I rebuilt all of FIRS
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20:42:43 <petern> [az]Base winning here...
20:43:35 <andythenorth> oops forgot to build statues in my game
20:43:47 <petern> Having bigger sprites in place of the standard sprites was never a good idea.
20:43:47 <andythenorth> what do they add, 10%?
20:44:16 <andythenorth> maybe I just have FIRS add 10%
20:44:20 <andythenorth> statues are dumb AF
20:44:48 <JGR> I could never bring myself to build a statue to myself, it just feels a bit too North Korean to me
20:46:33 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: scheduling works
20:46:44 <supermop_toil> you have to start the trains in the right order
20:46:49 <supermop_toil> bt it definately works
20:46:56 * andythenorth trying to remember how ratings cb works
20:47:02 <petern> It does, but it's so fragile and so many little things you need to get right.
20:47:57 <supermop_toil> yeah its not the easiest thing to use but i've be regularly using it to do what it can do for over 10 years
20:48:09 <andythenorth> "The station rating callback is quite complicated and deserves some detailed explanation. "
20:48:46 <supermop_toil> so categorically saying it just doesn't work is not particularly helpful
20:49:31 <supermop_toil> a few things that are counter intuitive is the depot order thing
20:50:06 <supermop_toil> that highest number gets soonest start date, so you have to release from the depot manually in reverse order
20:50:32 <andythenorth> not sure I can just do 'add 10%'
20:50:38 <andythenorth> or whatever statues do
20:51:05 <andythenorth> I think I have to replicate the rating algorithm in grf if I want to do that
20:51:18 <andythenorth> hmm...patched client? 😛
20:51:39 <supermop_toil> but if you have all the vehicles already out and about, it does try to put them in order based on the order they are driving around in
20:52:35 <JGR> If anything at all happens after the moment you push the button, it's unable to adapt or recover
20:53:20 <supermop_toil> you can manually adjust things or send vehicles to depot to try to get them back in order
20:53:39 <supermop_toil> its a lot of work but its not like every single timetable is always doomed to fail
20:54:05 <andythenorth> timetables seem a bit like block-signals-are-faster
20:54:43 <andythenorth> if what we wanted was auto-separate, we have the wrong tool 😛
20:54:47 <supermop_toil> idk i guess i have to make andy a save with a timetable in it?
20:54:55 <supermop_toil> i don't want auto separate
20:55:14 <andythenorth> that's the exact point I think
20:55:28 <supermop_toil> i want a train showing up at pretty but x time, and every y days thereafter
20:55:34 <andythenorth> if the goal is spacing out buses in a town, then timetables don't work
20:55:57 <supermop_toil> i mean they do tho
20:55:59 <andythenorth> if the goal is working around that partial load isn't possible, then timetables work fine
20:56:55 <andythenorth> 🙂 "timetables don't work in vanilla" is the #1 reason players give for using JGRPP
20:56:59 <supermop_toil> they also work reasonable ok for some simulation of bus route 10 comes at the top of the hour and bus route 20 comes at xx:15 and xx:45
20:57:27 <supermop_toil> i mean i believe that many players find timetables difficult,
20:57:37 <andythenorth> I've tried auto-sep in JGRPP and it is quite a lot closer to 'just works'
20:58:01 <supermop_toil> i don't really agree with "you dont know what you are talking about and you are lying to us claiming that timetables work"
20:58:20 <JGR> Actually doing clock face timetabling and similar in vanilla is sufficiently cumbersome that it's not worth it for ordinary players
20:58:28 <supermop_toil> which is sort of what it feels like everytime the topic comes up
20:59:07 <andythenorth> that's why I think it's like 'block signals are faster'
20:59:16 <supermop_toil> and i don't know what to say - i use it in every game i've played for years and it does what i expect it to do, even if i wish it had better functionality
20:59:16 <andythenorth> 'faster at what?' is the question there
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20:59:46 <andythenorth> when I tried this
20:59:57 <andythenorth> after discord had explained to me why I was clicking the wrong buttons
21:00:08 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: the block signal thing is generally met with "the people saying that don't know what they are talking about"
21:00:16 <andythenorth> yeah but that's wrong
21:00:20 <andythenorth> block signals are faster
21:00:30 <andythenorth> they show green, not red
21:00:34 <andythenorth> and green is faster than red
21:00:57 <supermop_toil> so saying timetables are like that is like saying "supermop doesn't know what he's talking about, his claims of being able to use timetables are deluded"
21:01:00 <andythenorth> when people say timetables don't work they mean they don't do 1 click 'auto separation'
21:01:24 <andythenorth> no more deluded than everyone telling me refit-any-available works 🙂
21:01:28 <andythenorth> when I have saves showing it doesn't
21:01:33 <JGR> We're not saying that it's impossible, but that it's too difficult and arcane for normal users
21:01:36 <andythenorth> but always my saves have unreleased grfs 😦
21:02:01 <petern> I'm not sure I'm a normal user 😄
21:03:46 <supermop_toil> i'd also say that adaptive auto separation also doesn't work as people might expect it to, at least in the form it worked last time i tried it
21:04:08 <andythenorth> I tried to break the one in JGRPP
21:04:33 <andythenorth> there's an alternative patch that actually had a better effect visually, but I broke it quite quickly 😛
21:04:52 <supermop_toil> if i build my busses thinking they will come every 30 minutes but my schedule was too optimistic, in a regular time timetable all my buses are late
21:05:09 <supermop_toil> in an adaptive timetable suddely they are coming every 45 minutes
21:05:26 <andythenorth> bus auto-separation doesn't really need magic
21:05:36 <andythenorth> you just route them through a single tile stop with 'wait 15 days' or so
21:05:45 <andythenorth> and then they all queue up there, and release on a set frequency
21:05:49 <supermop_toil> i mean a 'route" or "service" would be nice
21:06:04 <andythenorth> people seem to not like the 'feed hopper' approach 😛
21:06:04 <supermop_toil> and i think some patch has that?
21:06:50 <JGR> Given that road vehicles will eventually drive through each other, that can also go wrong
21:06:52 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: you need a tram, or long bus for that, and a one-way road
21:07:09 <JGR> There's also ships where that doesn;t work at all
21:07:10 <supermop_toil> also what JGR said...
21:07:32 <andythenorth> yeah ships are what I tried, and buses
21:08:05 <andythenorth> JGR: I toggle on both 'Automate' and 'Auto Separation' ?
21:08:12 <andythenorth> but don't touch 'Auto fill'?
21:08:21 <supermop_toil> i'd like to be able to say bus route 11 or express train to luddington starts every hour at xx:30
21:08:36 <andythenorth> you need real time departure boards in JGRPP
21:08:44 <andythenorth> there is a whole discord about that
21:08:51 <supermop_toil> and what ever hardware on the orderlist is at the start station goes and does it
21:09:03 <JGR> andythenorth: Yes, that's the easiest and simplest way
21:09:14 <andythenorth> there is a whole alternative way of playing with yards and daily schedules
21:09:22 <andythenorth> so you have peak hours and so forth
21:09:35 <supermop_toil> so you maybe have some waiting in a yard or depot or just at a spare platform
21:10:00 <andythenorth> there's a lot of trying to tune things to 30 minute schedules or so I think also
21:10:13 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: not even getting to peak hours, just a decoupling of the timetable and the hardware
21:10:24 <andythenorth> yeah this just works
21:10:43 <andythenorth> I never figured out what the white labels do or how to turn them off
21:11:02 <JGR> Just about any algorithm at all will work when you've only got two bus stops close to each other 😛
21:11:16 <andythenorth> oh the transparency window has got rid of those white labels
21:11:29 <supermop_toil> like i want a train to start this service every x days.. ok train one is the one at the station so it will do it
21:11:56 <andythenorth> so first available unit gets the diagram?
21:12:28 <supermop_toil> maybe train 1 gets delayed and doesn't complete it's route in time for the next turn, so train 13 takes it instead
21:12:35 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: yes
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21:13:18 <andythenorth> it is more pleasing watching separated buses drive around
21:13:27 <supermop_toil> and if there are multiple waiting to take it, it goes by FIFO or train number or whatever
21:14:09 <supermop_toil> i sometimes mix a timetable with alternating long and short or whatever trains
21:14:21 <supermop_toil> which would no longer be possible, but that's ok
21:14:54 <supermop_toil> usually when cascading old stock to some other line that gets misfit hand-me-downs
21:15:24 <supermop_toil> E trains at world train center do that
21:16:25 <supermop_toil> sometimes they are didn't finish mopping the one that was going to go next, or the motorman ran off to pee, so they send out the one that just came in
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21:23:19 <andythenorth> hmm new FIRS ports are too hard to increase production
21:23:29 <andythenorth> bit yak-shaving-ish
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21:28:24 <andythenorth> oh my ship is stuck 😄
21:28:35 <andythenorth> I guess that happened
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21:45:02 <andythenorth> lol the cumulative effect of building statues is quite high
21:45:22 <andythenorth> 10% more cargo, repeated through 3 or 4 industries in the chain
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23:39:00 <glx[d]> hmm PF is supposed to prevent these stuck ships thing
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