IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-09-22
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06:24:11 <petern> Ah, the compile I started last night has finished.
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07:14:34 <pickpacket> planes are broken....
07:15:06 <pickpacket> Set up an airport at a town of 1,000 pop and there'll soon be 200+ passengers there waiting to be flown out
07:17:59 <pickpacket> I'm on a multiplayer server that reset this morning. I set up 4 airports on one side of the map, in towns with 500-2,000 people, and 3 airports on the other side in towns with 300-1,500. Within 5 years I was making £1.5 a year just running planes across the map
07:19:07 <pickpacket> Nothing yields as much profit for your time than just adding/upgrading airports and buying more and more planes to add to long haul flight routes
07:20:00 <LordAro> you have discovered the secret
07:22:21 <pickpacket> well.... it feels like a bug though
07:22:47 <pickpacket> towns shouldn't be physically capable of generating so much passengers and mail
07:23:41 <andythenorth> balancing is broken 🙂
07:28:16 <pickpacket> Do cities produce insane amounts of passengers and mail for other modes of transport too?
07:34:42 <andythenorth> depends on a few things
07:35:54 <andythenorth> is it base towns, or do you have a town grf?
07:39:33 <LordAro> (in general, the answer is yes)
07:40:48 <pickpacket> I think the server is just vanilla. Only default settings and no extra GRFs. Not even trams
07:51:34 <petern> I doubt any server is using purely default settings. cdist is in vanilla.
07:57:39 <petern> Er, I didn't press enter/submit.
08:02:36 <andythenorth> I'll press it for you
08:02:41 <petern> Hah, can't refer to SVN revisions I guess.
08:06:25 <petern> Well, have to fix that later.
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08:59:02 <petern> The switch expression does not handle all possible values of its input type (it is not exhaustive). For example, the pattern '(Mode)2' is not covered.
08:59:13 <petern> Yeah, 2 isn't covered because 2 isn't a value of the Mode enum...
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11:20:37 <petern> 3x UI size is the best
11:31:41 <petern> 8x is big even on a 5K screen...
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12:23:19 <LordAro> that font looks weirdly smooth
12:29:30 <petern> There's a lot of pixels to antialias as 8x 🙂
12:30:01 <petern> The font is 'Sansita', I was trying out different ones.
13:53:20 <supermop_toil> direct deposit late again
13:53:33 <supermop_toil> i don't understand how this isn't automatic
13:56:05 <supermop_toil> as it has been at every other place i've worked, from 3 to 500 employees, over the past 20 years
13:57:35 <andythenorth> you have employer issues 😛
13:57:42 <andythenorth> are you in a down sector / economy?
13:57:49 <andythenorth> switch to digital product management 😛
14:04:15 <supermop_toil> luxury hospitality design hasn't turned down yet - we just have the stupidest payroll system i've ever seen
14:05:11 <supermop_toil> whereby one person, who is the entire 'HR' for the company manually has to issue it, and if she forgets to, or doesn't set it up before going on vacation, we don't get paid
14:06:55 <supermop_toil> even when i worked in an office for one deadbeat architect who was always broke, and one other employee, the dude always paid us even if he had to borrow money from his fiancee to do so
14:12:31 <supermop_toil> i definately have employer issues
14:19:30 <supermop_toil> also i have spelling issues
15:02:49 <supermop_toil> i would just go out and get coffee rather than work, but a bit too broke for that
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16:28:45 <TrueBrain> Pretty happy the bridge is working stable .. so we can all be one happy family, no matter what your flavour of chat is 😄
16:33:29 <andythenorth> my life no longer contains irc
16:33:42 <andythenorth> for the last 10 years I left my laptop open always
16:33:46 <andythenorth> because bouncers are junk
16:33:56 <andythenorth> and logging is unreliable
16:34:05 <andythenorth> now I can shut my laptop more
16:40:12 <frosch> sounds like an excuse, blaming ottd for leaving your computer on
16:40:25 <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh, absolutely
16:40:34 <frosch> lordaro: don't worry, there are lots of channels on discord, but they are all "andy talking"
16:40:44 <LordAro> but i'd rather "as well as" instead of "replace"
16:41:32 <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, did you know .. 80% of the people talking in this channel are in fact on Discord? 😄
16:41:33 <frosch> most funny is the release-announcement channel, 9 of 10 items are firs/horse/...
16:42:02 <TrueBrain> and that I basically build the bridge just for you 🙂
16:42:31 <TrueBrain> otherwise we miss you too much!
16:42:59 <TrueBrain> now back to debugging why a FreeRTOS task is consuming 100% CPU ... sometimes
16:43:08 <frosch> he built truewiki for me, not sure who truegrf is for
16:43:18 <LordAro> tbh, if you also converted emojis to emoticon equivalents, i probably wouldn't be able to tell at all
16:43:31 <TrueBrain> I did consider it, I have to admit 😉
16:43:50 <TrueBrain> but what smiley would be best ... `:)` .. `:-)` ... `(:` ...
16:44:19 <TrueBrain> per user or per time? 😄
16:44:47 * LordAro goes back to convincing gcc to link against the correct copy of libgmp
16:44:59 <TrueBrain> such fun, our lives
16:46:05 <LordAro> centos7 only has gmp 6.0.0
16:46:10 <LordAro> __gmpq_cmp_z was added in 6.1.0
16:46:24 <TrueBrain> so stop using that function! 😛
16:46:44 <LordAro> can't, not my library :(
16:47:04 <TrueBrain> I am writing my own MQTT library as paho-c sucks balls
16:47:05 <LordAro> (well, i am compiling it, but modifying it to remove usage would be a massive pain)
16:47:09 <TrueBrain> what is stopping you from doing the same? 😛
16:47:24 <frosch> compile a "int __gmpq_cmp_z() { return 0; }" and LD_PRELOAD it
16:47:48 <TrueBrain> frosch: is a smart cookie
16:48:16 <frosch> just make sure that debugging in production is someone else' job
16:56:13 <LordAro> success, had to reorder some of the library definitions
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17:23:09 <andythenorth> I did try talking on reddit too
17:23:12 <andythenorth> but I can't work reddit
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17:35:25 <supermop_toil> i agree with andy out of context
17:36:22 <supermop_toil> 90s music, train liveries, requirement of vehicles to be cute
17:37:41 <LordAro> I don't agree with andy
17:37:46 <LordAro> just for some balance
17:38:00 <supermop_toil> on Openttd stuff, or on 90s music etc
17:41:23 <frosch> isn't 88-98 the time of the worst music ever?
17:42:05 <frosch> it's better before, and better after
18:00:58 <supermop_toil> what an apt response
18:02:11 <supermop_toil> frosch: for some types of music, probably.
18:02:46 <supermop_toil> i would say 99-03 was probably worse
18:03:12 <frosch> no, i like that time 🙂
18:03:58 <supermop_toil> lately i've been listening to mostly 78-86 japanese city pop
18:04:02 <frosch> analog music is good, and end-90s-trance/techno is good
18:04:20 <frosch> early 90s was a learning and experimentation phase, that does not quite score on any scale
18:04:54 <andythenorth> nearly all my favourite music is around 1988 😛
18:05:05 <frosch> did you finish school then?
18:05:21 <andythenorth> I am not that old 😛
18:06:16 <frosch> hmm, usually we like the music from when we finish school, afterwards our brains degrade and we approch the douglas adams inflection point
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18:07:14 <supermop_toil> frosch: i graduated high school in 03, but i prefer 98
18:07:47 <frosch> oh, i assumed you were older than me
18:08:40 <supermop_toil> there is some good dance music from when i was in high school, but it was pretty uncommon and niche in the suburban midwest
18:08:54 <supermop_toil> we mostly just had butt-rock/nu metal
18:09:13 <supermop_toil> and i had to buy gatecrasher CDs on early ebay
18:09:52 <supermop_toil> or go to a specialy record store when visoting a bigger city
18:11:06 <supermop_toil> i only really had direct exposure to 90s house and trance in 97-99 when I was living in England for middle school
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18:13:31 <petern> House and trance are the worst eras.
18:14:21 <supermop_toil> petern: worst era of house?
18:15:02 <supermop_toil> i quite like the indie-y genre of 2010s detroit house
18:15:22 <supermop_toil> basically just "stuff on the ghostly label"
18:15:54 <supermop_toil> 80s chicago house is fun if cheesy
18:16:41 <supermop_toil> i always take andy to be more of a ORB guy
18:16:43 <petern> It's all the same to me :p
18:17:11 <petern> Hmm, am I OpenTTDing or Minecrafting.
18:17:38 <supermop_toil> run openttd on a computer in minecraft?
18:18:18 <supermop_toil> frosch: inspired me to put on Da Hool
18:20:01 <frosch> only singles in my streaming service. i prefer albums
18:20:24 <frosch> but at least i have heard some of them before
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18:21:26 <andythenorth> petern: am I OpenTTDing or BadNorthing?
18:21:31 <supermop_toil> i don't know if this dude ever released albums to be honest - the single was on a bunch of compilations i had back arounf 99-00
18:21:41 <andythenorth> Orb is a bit slow supermop
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18:22:59 <petern> I could just watch YouTube shorts all night.
18:23:38 <andythenorth> that is a bit steep
18:23:46 <frosch> probably anything is better than that
18:23:59 <andythenorth> I often find that whatever my plans were, 'watching YouTube' is what happens
18:24:04 <andythenorth> but not Shorts 😛
18:24:35 <andythenorth> I want to add more FIRS objects
18:24:46 <andythenorth> but that will destroy the objects in my current savegame
18:27:18 <andythenorth> maybe that savegame is over
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18:53:52 * andythenorth watching YouTube
18:54:59 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:14:05 <andythenorth> can objects read anything from nearby industries?
19:14:12 * andythenorth "asking for a friend"
19:15:08 <andythenorth> seems they might read animation counter from any tile? 😛 var 43
19:15:15 <andythenorth> probably shouldn't abuse that
19:22:41 <frosch> that's only animation frame from objects
19:22:54 <frosch> different features can about never talk to each other, except via towns
19:23:27 <andythenorth> I'll tell my friend
19:23:47 * andythenorth still puzzled about stations
19:24:01 <andythenorth> and why cargo display is so weird
19:24:31 <andythenorth> cargo only shows when something is wrong
19:24:37 <andythenorth> which is very logical for gameplay
19:24:39 <andythenorth> but not for eye candy
19:25:02 <andythenorth> cargo objects could be a thing, but they have no access to nearby features 😛
19:30:30 <supermop_toil> makes sense for passengers, but yeah there should be a distinction between "evidence of activity for this cargo" and "too much of this cargo is piling up waiting"
19:30:53 <supermop_toil> sprites based on cargo service rating?
19:34:45 <Bouke> I have a network with a main line (2x2); I'm using PBS everywhere. There's a junction and only 1 obvious route to take for a train, but ~80% go in a wrong direction and then will perform a 180 at the next station along the route. Is there a known issue around this? Or am I doing something wrong?
19:34:53 <andythenorth> I did consider splitting station tiles explicitly by purpose
19:35:10 <andythenorth> so can build 'rating tile' or 'waiting tile' or 'recent throughput tile'
19:35:25 <andythenorth> but sprites would be the same, just different meanings
19:36:09 <frosch> Bouke: usually it's something silly, like one tile missing electrification
19:36:32 <petern> Railway motorway junctions eh
19:36:51 <Bouke> Well 20% of the trains _are_ taking the correct turn, so the rails are good.
19:37:46 <supermop_toil> andythenorth: pile of stuff vs more orderly pile with forklifts or similar?
19:37:46 <Bouke> The clover turns are only used sporadically (heh).
19:37:47 <andythenorth> maybe I should make it more like a game
19:37:50 <andythenorth> cargo is red and angry
19:37:52 <andythenorth> or green and happy
19:37:57 <andythenorth> same sprites, recoloured 😛
19:38:07 <andythenorth> or a cartoon outline
19:38:51 <andythenorth> and yes, the distinction between little / lots is not really working
19:39:05 <supermop_toil> conveyor belt moving ore along, or belt has become totally buried under the piles of backed up ore
19:39:05 <andythenorth> would be better to have the levels mean 'ok' and 'not ok'
19:39:19 <petern> TTDPatch design decisions eh?
19:39:36 <andythenorth> TBH Patch did the most logical thing I think
19:39:40 <andythenorth> it's just not very gamey
19:39:51 <supermop_toil> though 2000 tones waiting is maybe ok at a huge port where a big ship is about to carry it all away?
19:39:52 <andythenorth> it doesn't look nice, and it doesn't quite give useful info
19:40:10 <frosch> i think station tiles should provide some storage amount
19:40:20 <frosch> that would allow cargo rating to stay up as long there is storage left
19:40:29 <frosch> trains don't have to full-load-wait all the time
19:40:35 <frosch> and waiting amount can build up
19:40:36 <andythenorth> is this where we conclude ratings are stupid again? 🙂
19:41:05 <frosch> it's never only one issue
19:41:11 <petern> Hmm, maybe I should merge this all together than then split it out again.
19:41:13 <supermop_toil> 1000 people waiting at the bus stop is different from 1000 people waiting in lounges at the airport
19:41:55 <andythenorth> petern: so the amount waiting might be proportional to average throughput?
19:42:03 <frosch> i am not sure, bus stops may be able to handle more passengers than airports in openttd :p
19:42:06 <andythenorth> so the amount waiting might be proportional to average throughput?
19:42:33 * andythenorth can't find quite the words
19:42:48 <andythenorth> but there should be some dimensionless unit
19:42:52 <andythenorth> or unitless dimension
19:42:57 <andythenorth> or whatever the right term is
19:43:18 <andythenorth> whether 200t or 5000t is 'a problem' is quite contextual
19:43:37 <andythenorth> also when a vehicle is loading it's instinctive to see the cargo waiting reduce
19:43:40 <supermop_toil> storage is helpful for that
19:43:46 <andythenorth> maybe the cargo should animate somehow, not reduce
19:44:00 <andythenorth> other games might show items coming off the pile, but not the pile reducing in size
19:44:07 <supermop_toil> like 5000t is fine at bulk terminal with storage for 6000t
19:44:42 <supermop_toil> animation shows activity/rating, pile size shows amount
19:45:29 <Bouke> If anyone is interested in figuring this out? Seems like a path finder bug to me.
19:45:38 <supermop_toil> add new soundeffects of cacophony of grumbling passengers for "too much waiting too long"
19:45:48 <supermop_toil> and let coal grumble as well
19:45:56 <andythenorth> that metal flickering in and out isn't particularly attractive
19:46:09 <andythenorth> it does show cargo is being produced and loaded, but it's not nice
19:52:45 <frosch> andythenorth: imagine cargo refits for station tiles
19:52:51 <frosch> i am sure you want station tile liveries :p
19:53:57 <andythenorth> but also multiplied by railtypes
19:54:14 <frosch> probably ottd should prefer filling up tiles with cargo, instead of showing low amounts on all tiles
19:54:16 <petern> Bouke: that path only goes to Drogendam Steel Mill
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19:54:53 <andythenorth> frosch: have you seen Industrial Track Set? 😛
19:55:06 <Bouke> petern: oh doh... I'm feeling stupid now 😛
19:56:10 <andythenorth> makes total sense, but
19:57:00 <frosch> oh great, firs object set, firs station set, firs railtype and roadtype set
19:57:08 <frosch> matching rails and road for all industry types
19:57:22 <frosch> with a searchable filter for the track types
19:57:46 <andythenorth> content unleashed 🙂
19:57:59 <andythenorth> I feel somehow responsible 😛
19:58:29 <andythenorth> I never did figure out how a UI might work for BGT
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20:01:39 <frosch> at this point it would be like the objects gui, just that you can build the object under/above tracks, stations, canals, ...
20:01:56 <andythenorth> I wondered about a literal terrain painter
20:02:04 <andythenorth> like some of the scenario editor tools
20:02:13 <andythenorth> choose the texture, paint
20:02:29 <frosch> a lot of games distinguish ground types from building
20:02:30 <andythenorth> gets injected between as the default tile sprite
20:02:34 <frosch> factorio has them separate
20:02:50 <frosch> terraria has back-walls whether front-walls
20:02:54 <frosch> or whatever they are called
20:03:33 <andythenorth> "back-face culling" 😛
20:03:39 * andythenorth just likes that term
20:03:55 <andythenorth> would BGT actually be hard?
20:04:08 * andythenorth looks at scenario editor
20:04:08 <frosch> i saw a nvidia presentation today
20:04:18 <frosch> maybe ai can rotate ottd maps :p
20:04:36 <andythenorth> interpolate the missing angles
20:05:20 <andythenorth> yeah we have the basics of this
20:06:30 <andythenorth> oh we have a spray can tool as well
20:07:07 <andythenorth> I don't understand the current provision of base terrain sprite
20:07:25 <andythenorth> if industry tiles don't provide ground, I get the black / no-op tile
20:07:58 <andythenorth> looking what stations do
20:08:21 <petern> Stations provide the ground with rail.
20:08:23 <andythenorth> ok stations have the landscape terrain tile
20:10:52 <andythenorth> the FIRS and CHIPS object set (not mine) has to duplicate all the objects per tile type 🙂
20:11:38 <petern> So do stations if you want to provide dirt, concrete, cobblestone etc variants.
20:14:57 <andythenorth> wonder what the appeal is
20:15:03 <andythenorth> I guess it's just more building options
20:15:21 <andythenorth> I didn't bother in stations, you just get a narrow range of ground tiles and like it
20:15:44 <andythenorth> didn't bother in objects either, you just get objects for the specific industry
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20:25:55 <FLHerne> andythenorth: it looks pretty strange if you mix ground types within a facility
20:27:02 <andythenorth> petern: witchcraft 😮
20:34:39 <petern> Hmm, weird, I've got a font that gets smaller as I increase the size o_O
20:40:25 <petern> Oh I see, when using automatic font size there's a dependency between small and medium size.
20:47:15 <andythenorth> hmm was it lunch?
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22:34:27 <petern> Hmm, there's kinda 3 bits to this patch set, I should properly split them out.
22:34:44 <petern> (There's 70+ commits, mingled together...)
continue to next day ⏵
