IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-08-27
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08:38:55 <andythenorth> Might need this for my forum sig (not in OpenTTD world)
08:38:55 <andythenorth> “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
08:40:14 <Artea> I really missed you andy
08:41:04 <andythenorth> I didn't go away
08:41:31 <Artea> then had to disguise to ban evade
08:42:00 * Artea feels a little ashame for be an OpenTTD's outlaw
08:49:38 <LordAro> why do my farmers & fishermen keep dying of starvation?
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10:09:34 * andythenorth awaits the merge :)
10:29:16 <andythenorth> do (rail) station tiles know if they have a vehicle in them?
10:29:26 <andythenorth> and if it's loading/unloading?
10:33:08 <frosch> they know pbs reservation
10:33:20 <frosch> there are stations which open/close doors for vehicles
10:33:47 <frosch> they do not know the difference between entering/halting/leaving/passing through
10:35:17 <andythenorth> not sure I really want to animate pouring molten steel into torpedo wagons 🙂
10:36:09 <frosch> heat flares are hard to draw 🙂
10:40:15 <andythenorth> oh I forgot I PRed that 😛
10:40:29 <andythenorth> treating it as a private nmlc build currently 😛
10:40:54 <andythenorth> palette validation really should be optional though, it's trying to safeguard something where some of us know better
10:40:57 <andythenorth> and it's expensive
10:54:50 <glx> Update your black andythenorth
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11:25:00 <peter1138> Lose a bit of weight, get told "your tummy's very flat, don't lose too much weight!"... Yeah, cos I habitually hold it in all the time.
11:42:38 <andythenorth> It’s the abs innit
11:46:47 <peter1138> Antilock braking, yes.
11:47:08 <peter1138> Hungry now so eating a massive salad.
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11:50:31 <andythenorth> My current life goal is doing a hand stand
11:50:42 <andythenorth> Think it can be done
11:51:40 <Artea> I used to do that 20 years ago
11:52:01 <Artea> and I'm not fat or anything close of that
11:52:14 <Artea> I just have a "beer belly" without drinking i
11:52:56 <Artea> btw, if any of you is hairy, whats out
11:53:05 <Artea> it can have a bad effect on you
11:53:14 <Artea> I took off some on March or so
11:53:35 <Artea> and from night to day, I stopped rip off my nails which I was doing for 31 years
11:53:40 <andythenorth> This is going to be TMI
11:54:11 <Artea> is a good info for someone who are unaware of situation to begin
11:54:40 <Artea> I'm trying not to be disgusting and say things directly to not make all of you get nauseas
11:55:51 <Artea> you couldn't wait, did you ?
11:55:56 <Artea> now I going play F.E.A.R.
12:00:53 <peter1138> I'm pretty unhairy fortunately. Just the stupid mop on my head.
12:10:35 * peter1138 'ruins' all the good work with a Magnum iceream.
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13:37:12 <andythenorth> let's try to square a circle or two
13:37:35 <andythenorth> stations with cargo graphics that change to convey gameplay information
13:38:05 <andythenorth> 1) it's nice to see the cargo sprites, but they only display when the station isn't being properly served by trains
13:38:23 <andythenorth> that's kind of the circle really
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13:55:23 <TallTyler> 2) Cargo sprites tell you that the station isn't being properly served, but can only tell you one cargo that isn't being served properly. With Engineering Supplies it's often best to do under-transport to avoid losing Gung-Ho status when trains can't always load on schedule, but then you can't tell other cargos which are under-transported (at the Wharf in Steeltown, for example)
13:55:44 <TallTyler> So maybe it's not as useful a feature as it could be
13:57:19 <JGR> There are plenty of players who don't follow the "properly serving" idea of always having a vehicle loading
13:58:17 <JGR> I for one certainly don't bother with that
13:59:21 <TallTyler> I think it's much more important on vanilla daylength/tick speed, because it torpedoes your station ratings pretty quickly
13:59:30 <andythenorth> so things we might want to know
13:59:41 <andythenorth> - station is working 'as expected' i.e. shipping cargo
13:59:52 <andythenorth> - station is under-served
13:59:55 <andythenorth> - station has a good / bad rating
13:59:56 <JGR> Trying to micromanage station ratings is a bit pointless really
14:00:07 <JGR> You might as well redefine 75% as 100% and call it a day
14:00:09 <andythenorth> there was a FIRS version that set them to 100% and moved on 😛
14:00:12 <TallTyler> "station ratings are a bad feature"
14:00:22 <andythenorth> I removed it from FIRS because gameplay
14:01:03 <TallTyler> Company owner statues are objectively a bad feature 🙂
14:01:11 <JGR> They're not "bad", but it's simply not necessary to obsess over maximising them
14:02:09 <JGR> You're never forced to build statues so they are easy to ignore
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14:58:56 <andythenorth> frosch: if I provide specific strings for the FIRS location disallowed cases...can we do an empirical study of failures?
15:00:50 <peter1138> That's what happens when you turn a game with a limited set of difficulties and targets into a sandbox... the features that make up those seem to become pointless.
15:00:53 <nielsm> so when are we getting an update for the window system to do two-pass constraints sizing?
15:03:01 <andythenorth> peter1138: breakdowns and disasters anyone? 😛
15:03:27 <andythenorth> I like our train set though
15:05:16 <peter1138> I'm gonna Netflix and chill... and by that I mean continue watching Sandman, with a fan on.
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16:16:19 <Wolf01> I usually netflix and sleep
16:16:58 <andythenorth> I usually stay up too late 😛
16:17:08 <andythenorth> and draw sprites like a man obsessed
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17:36:38 <frosch> andythenorth: yes, we can easily record, which result occurs most time, or whether it just fails on landscaping
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18:18:38 <andythenorth> I'll add some strings after dinner 😛
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18:53:50 <peter1138> Making that UI adjust to the correct size should be pretty simple.
18:56:16 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:59:38 <frosch> andythenorth: ottd calls the tile-check for all industry tiles before it calls the location check
19:00:04 <frosch> i guess we can speed up industry construction by factor 30 by swapping the order
19:01:06 <peter1138> Why I am doing flac/mp3 encoding on the Paspberry Bi's ARM instead of the quad core Xeon? :/
19:06:47 <andythenorth> industry checks next
19:06:49 <LordAro> peter1138: i always seems to have trouble with it too
19:08:42 <andythenorth> the industry location checks AND or OR a set of procedure results
19:12:57 <andythenorth> can't pick out the string
19:13:04 <andythenorth> I guess I could bitmask?
19:27:27 <nielsm> peter1138: there might be a simple way to make the framerate window adjust, but I certainly can't find it
19:27:40 <nielsm> maybe the structure is wrong
19:31:23 <nielsm> actually, I may have found it
19:34:23 <glx[d]> theorically it should resize fine, unless widget containers/organisation is wrong
19:35:08 <jfs-> was missing SetFill and SetResize on a few things
19:35:22 <jfs-> not the ones I was expecting
19:35:38 <andythenorth> frosch: pushed a rudimentary set of returns for the industry location checks 😛
19:36:40 <glx[d]> oh yes missing properties is often a possibility
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19:56:29 <frosch> andythenorth: shall i use steeltown?
19:58:20 <frosch> Steeltown on 512x512 hilly smooth map ```
19:58:20 <frosch> CB2F: 001e require_road_adjacent: 9576
19:58:20 <frosch> GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK failed: 9544
19:58:21 <frosch> CB2F: 0011 require_slope: 3745
19:58:21 <frosch> CB28: 000a get_post_player_founding_checks_AND: 3174
19:58:23 <frosch> CB28: 000b get_post_player_founding_checks_OR: 1611
19:58:23 <frosch> CB2F: 000e require_effectively_flat: 366
19:58:27 <frosch> CB2F: 0012 require_sea_tile: 133
19:58:29 <frosch> CB2F: 0000 disallow_industry_adjacent: 42
19:58:31 <frosch> CB2F: 0001 disallow_slopes: 12
19:58:31 <frosch> default slope check: 7
20:00:28 <frosch> wharf, bulk terminal and general store are the problematic ones
20:01:41 <frosch> so i guess some "near coast" and "in town" pre-filter may be worth it
20:03:33 <frosch> i don't remember the discussion from two days ago, but i don't think these were considered the top issues 🙂
20:05:13 <TrueBrain> Given the amount of chatting in here, I guess I should add pastebin support for code blocks .. lol
20:05:29 <TrueBrain> Surprised it didn't cause a kick due to flood :p
20:05:31 <frosch> yeah, i triggered some irc throttling 🙂
20:06:05 <frosch> took 11 seconds on irc 🙂
20:06:32 <TrueBrain> My intent was to bridge IRC to Discord, not so much the other way around :p
20:07:14 <frosch> andy is the most active chatter on all channels, which i did not mute
20:07:17 <dwfreed> excess flood triggers at 30 pending lines
20:07:28 <frosch> i do not dare checking the muted channels 🙂
20:07:34 <glx[d]> TrueBrain: or use dorpsgek gists
20:07:58 <TrueBrain> glx[d]: That would work too
20:08:13 <TrueBrain> But yeah, more complexity / work
20:09:09 <dwfreed> also risk of hosting inappropriate content
20:09:55 <FLHerne> frosch: I guess you're the person to ask, is there any special reason the number of industry tiles is still very low?
20:10:19 <FLHerne> there seems to be space in the maparray, the specs explicitly mention wanting to make it an extended byte
20:10:49 <frosch> there are a few properties, variables, which are limited to 128 tile types
20:10:57 <frosch> because bit 7 is used for "original industrytile"
20:11:18 <frosch> note: there are two limits "per grf" and "total"
20:11:28 <frosch> maparray is about "total" and is higher
20:11:34 <FLHerne> well, I meant in terms of not making it a word, or probably an 'extended byte' in most cases
20:11:38 <frosch> properties/vars is about "per grf"
20:11:44 <andythenorth> frosch: thanks looking now
20:12:13 <FLHerne> I didn't realise the maparray was already higher
20:12:39 <FLHerne> I guess that must be remapped somewhere to avoid confusing the grf?
20:13:25 <frosch> yes, global ids and grf-local ids are different things
20:14:41 <andythenorth> so the industry checks mask the causes
20:14:58 <frosch> flherne: hmm, you may be on to something. the places i suspected do not impose a hard limit
20:16:15 <andythenorth> Basic Oxygen Furnace and Slag Grinding Plant both have high failure counts - both use require_max_distance_to_another_industry_type
20:16:19 <FLHerne> I ask because the concept I was thinking of for better industry layouts doesn't really work with andy's "every tile is the same one only magic" hack
20:16:47 <FLHerne> which is obviously the only reason FIRS hasn't blown the limit by orders of magnitude
20:17:04 <frosch> andythenorth: i already swapped the order of 28 and 2F for those statistics
20:18:08 <frosch> flherne: why do you need more ids?
20:18:27 <nielsm> I hope that above PR comes off as snarky as I intend it to be
20:20:09 <FLHerne> frosch: well, I'm dreaming of a system of 'sublayouts' that can be allowed to fail construction, or fall back to other ones
20:20:39 <FLHerne> or randomly chosen from different options because combinatorial industries are fun
20:21:06 <nielsm> I did try implementing a way to have sub-buildings for industries a while ago, and the big blocker I hit for it was adjusting landscape automatically, as some industries want
20:21:06 <FLHerne> but that doesn't work with tiles that have to look up their appearance from their coordinates
20:21:29 <FLHerne> unless the grf code for that gets even more unreasonable
20:21:52 <nielsm> because there isn't a good way to simulate doing some terrain adjustments without actually doing them, and there isn't a way to roll back the terrain to a snapshot from before starting experiments
20:22:29 <FLHerne> and adding grf vars to make the hack keep working, instead of simply raising the limit, would be crazy unless there's a good reason not to raise the limit
20:24:36 <nielsm> but maybe the solution would be that "industries using procedural layouts don't get to level the terrain, they have to fit into what already is"
20:25:27 <FLHerne> I was hoping that simply having smaller units that could be placed independently and possibly selected to fit would solve the problem enough
20:25:40 <nielsm> that's more or less what that above branch does yes
20:26:02 <FLHerne> yeah, I'm looking at it
20:26:34 <nielsm> I don't _think_ those parts of the code have changed too much since 2019 so it might be possible to bring forward without too much work
20:28:25 <nielsm> ahh right, the thing it does is select the sublayouts to use, and generate a new total layout, which is then placed
20:28:43 <nielsm> so all of it is placed in one go, instead of as individual parts
20:29:39 <nielsm> so it might need some way to handle that the sublayouts can be on different height levels
20:31:15 <nielsm> maybe only use the combined layout as an intermediate step to verify that the sublayouts don't overlap with other parts of the industry, and afterwards verify each sublayout against the landscape individually, and build them individually
20:33:22 <frosch> there was the idea to make industries place objects around them on certain events
20:33:39 <frosch> for fields, mineral piles, and possibly also outposts
20:33:42 <nielsm> and potentially "harvest" those objects as well, right?
20:34:51 <nielsm> but that's kind of separate from this, which is multiple buildings that are part of the "industry proper" and participate in cargo acceptance and production
20:36:04 <frosch> nielsm: ok, i was unsure whether that was the actual goal 🙂
20:36:52 <andythenorth> the main upside of combinatorial layouts seem to be
20:37:00 <andythenorth> (1) benefits players who can't just do it in the compile
20:37:08 <nielsm> random thought for that industry special effect proposal: should also have a way for industries to plant trees of specific or generic types
20:37:13 <andythenorth> (3) possibly more random than the generated combined layouts I'm doing
20:37:25 <andythenorth> (3) more reliable placement
20:38:10 <andythenorth> frosch: so do these results suggest we want a tile shape / slope hint?
20:40:12 <frosch> i just reverted back the callback order, i found an issue which may require some tile checks first (like map-wrap-around)
20:40:34 <frosch> the water and road-adjacent checks are still the most
20:40:46 <frosch> half of the failures are water checks
20:41:12 <frosch> so a "near coast" pre-check may be worth it, as well as a "near town" check
20:41:23 <frosch> though technically there are already "near town" checks
20:41:58 <andythenorth> why don't I use that?
20:42:02 <andythenorth> maybe it checks for town sign
20:42:11 <andythenorth> think it fails for larger towns
20:42:38 <frosch> the general store uses both
20:43:16 <frosch> the road check fails 7285 times, the house check only 88 times, even if i do the house check first
20:44:13 <frosch> oh, i don't, let's try that again
20:48:42 <frosch> yeah, that's better. now the general store fails 4k times on house check, and only 1 time on cb 2f
20:50:01 <frosch> so shuffling the check order seems to be worth it here
20:50:18 <frosch> it does not change the success rate, but does less callbacks, so probably faster
20:50:44 <glx[d]> testing predefined constraints before the callback should be faster yes
20:51:04 <glx[d]> as callbacks can be very complicated
20:51:38 <frosch> yeah, currently it does the tile-based callback even before the general industry callback 🙂
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21:01:10 <andythenorth> frosch: for industries that have minimum-distance-to-another-industry check
21:01:25 <andythenorth> they seem to fail relatively a lot more than others
21:01:35 <andythenorth> or I'm cherrypicking the evidence I want to find 😛
21:03:12 <frosch> TrueBrain: it's annoying that you cannot tab-complete people on irc, but i guess that is unsolvable 😦
21:03:36 <TrueBrain> yeah, sadly it seems there is no way to fake members on Discord
21:03:48 <TrueBrain> but you can reply to people, it will handle that correctly
21:03:50 <TrueBrain> so that is something
21:03:58 <frosch> andythenorth: what is get_post_player_founding_checks_OR ?
21:06:25 <andythenorth> it ORs the 0 and 1 results from a set of procedures
21:08:29 <frosch> well, it's the most often newgrf failure reason 🙂
21:10:03 <andythenorth> I could explicitly check a set of bits for failures
21:10:16 <andythenorth> then provide the reason
21:10:29 <andythenorth> but based on 'turn it off and on again'
21:10:43 <andythenorth> checking distance to an existing industry is expensive and failure prone
21:11:23 <andythenorth> JGR suggested using an industry type as a predefined constraint
21:15:31 <frosch> which result does the industry-type check trigger?
21:17:37 <frosch> the most often newgrf error condition is get_post_player_founding_checks_AND for the bulk terminal. 1311 failures compared to 7 successes
21:17:50 <frosch> that is still a low failure rate compared to the 2k attempts per success
21:18:10 <DorpsGek> frosch: 187.28571428571428
21:18:19 <frosch> it could fail 10 times more often 🙂
21:18:31 <andythenorth> what's the failure rate on Basic Oxygen Furnace?
21:19:03 <andythenorth> might still be well within acceptable bounds
21:19:37 <andythenorth> but it's roughly factor 10 of other similar industries without the industry-type distance check
21:20:09 <andythenorth> doesn't seem particularly high
21:20:12 <frosch> 50 attemps per success
21:20:24 <andythenorth> that's probably not interesting
21:20:53 <frosch> the map has low sea and smooth hills, maybe too easy to place 🙂
21:23:03 <frosch> yeah, it's a lot worse for high sea level
21:23:09 <frosch> i need to swap more checks
21:23:18 <frosch> do the tile-based water checks before cb28
21:24:08 <frosch> looks like get_post_player_founding_checks_OR triggers a lot on open sea 🙂
21:24:32 <frosch> it never really gets to the actual water check, cb28 fails first
21:38:04 <frosch> ok, now with high sea level: the ports are now the most expensive ones.
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continue to next day ⏵
