IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-08-22
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04:27:11 <NEKOMASTER> So when people post images on discord, does it show anything? I assume at the minimum it'll show a link to the image.
04:46:20 <dwfreed> we get the discordcdn link
04:46:28 <NEKOMASTER> thats what I thought
05:12:06 <Artea> it could popup if you are using a webirc
05:12:18 <Artea> such kiwiirc or IRCCloud
05:12:57 <Artea> on IRCCloud, I know for sure that if you allow media links, it shows the image as if was in discord / whatsapp
05:13:20 <Artea> same goes to YouTube videos
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07:04:10 <andythenorth> got outposts automatically added for 8 different compass locations
07:33:15 <andythenorth> stuck off to the side
07:34:08 <andythenorth> makes it easier to build pickup stations when there are 3...4...5 cargos to collect
07:35:56 <andythenorth> I tried giant mono industry layouts as alternative solution, but they look weird and don't get placed
07:36:23 <andythenorth> hmm failing to life admin correctly here
07:36:36 <andythenorth> too much excitement moving (x, y) values around
07:36:48 <andythenorth> children to chivy etc
07:37:53 <peter1138> So one industry can now spread out with multiple layouts?
07:38:44 <andythenorth> it's just gaps in the layout really 😛
07:40:42 <andythenorth> got the idea from nielsm originally
07:45:19 <peter1138> Hmm, not sure how to test for this CB_FAILED thing.
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07:48:00 <andythenorth> do you need a real-live test grf?
08:00:10 <peter1138> Not sure, the possibility of adjustments on a varaction 2 that tests for variable 0x0C make it awkward.
08:00:20 <peter1138> Also it's 9am, so now it's C# time.
08:00:43 * andythenorth considers making an analogue clock
08:00:52 <andythenorth> marked out for programming languages
08:00:57 <andythenorth> and various video chat services
08:01:13 <peter1138> Make a mechanical clock.
08:02:18 <peter1138> Depends how loosely defined 'clock' is.
08:03:53 <peter1138> "Traditionally, in horology, the term clock was used for a striking clock, while a clock that did not strike the hours audibly was called a timepiece."
08:03:59 <peter1138> This doesn't seem like C#.
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09:11:29 <andythenorth> lol sometimes these outposts make station placement harder not easier 😄
09:11:36 <andythenorth> both industries have outposts 😛
09:30:06 <peter1138> Bendy stations again?
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09:35:44 <glx[d]> peter1138: Some how your links match the bridge format for discord citations
09:40:29 <Artea> I really missed some convo here
09:40:45 <Artea> andythenorth be andynaughtytrain
09:41:42 <Artea> back to config webmin on CentOS 7 with 10 IPs ;)
09:42:40 <Artea> Webmin version 1.999-2 is now available, but you are running version 1.999. Release notes.
09:42:49 <Artea> Failed to upgrade from www.webmin.com : You are already running the latest version of Webmin
09:47:28 <peter1138> Gosh, someone's actually using webmin!?
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09:47:56 <Artea> I'm tired of trying config postfix3 and dovecot 2.7.5
09:49:41 <Artea> I have 1 IPv4 and 1 IPv6 (default from VPS) and 9 Extra IPs
09:49:47 <Artea> all with different domains
09:50:15 <Artea> but was 5 months ago, before I went restructure repos and packages and reconfig
09:50:35 <Artea> had a mess up python2 and 3
09:50:47 <Artea> certbot stopped work on py2
09:51:11 <Artea> was using 3.0.5 with libs of 3.0.4
09:51:35 <Artea> 1.1.1q with libs of 1.1.1p
09:51:55 <Artea> different domains with different ways of direction
09:52:09 <LordAro> something to do with needing it to work without SNI?
09:52:14 <Artea> one is for MU-Online, another for DooM
09:52:25 <Artea> another for Paradise Cafe
09:52:54 <Artea> submundo.pt (underworld) as a joint of pimpx.me & paradise-cafe.pt
09:53:05 <peter1138> I have 8 IPv4s at home (and tons of IPv6) but, uh, no real need other than I could :D
09:53:06 <Artea> most of domains I got now was free for 1 year
09:53:30 <EmperorJake> peter1138: These links are broken on discord
09:53:42 <peter1138> Absolutely nothing to do with me.
09:54:18 <Artea> to get that I need to order a "premium" pack from my ISP
09:54:37 <Artea> and my 2nd IP is made by MAC
09:54:48 <Artea> if I change MAC, I get different IP
09:55:02 <peter1138> These days, no IPv6 == no internet.
09:55:28 <Artea> there is 4to6 or vice-versa ;)
09:55:49 <Artea> other ISPs have IPv4 and IPv6 at same time
09:55:49 <peter1138> There's also sewage on our beaches. Not good either.
09:55:56 <Artea> some users on PT IRC Server
09:56:09 <Artea> and gets back with IPv6
09:56:31 <glx[d]> EmperorJake: Yeah they translate the `petern` part
09:56:38 <Artea> I'm using mIRC 7.69 [Portable] on Windows 7 (Uptime: 15hrs 47mins 18secs) :: mIRC Uptime: 6hrs 13mins 1sec - Connected to server for (6hrs 12mins 55secs ago)
09:57:02 <Artea> also got some time to get back to popups.ini :D
09:58:49 <Artea> anyway, Good Morning Monday, is starting get hot here...
09:59:07 <LordAro> -!- Irssi: Uptime: 434d 19h 21m 35s
09:59:08 <EmperorJake> The second one was briefly possible as a bug in JGRPP after bridges over stations was introduced
09:59:59 <peter1138> Those images are from a long long time ago :-)
10:01:13 <Artea> LordAro: you are a beast!
10:03:23 <Artea> [22-08-2022 11:03:00] <Shandalar> 23wks 7hrs 54mins 57secs <- :$
10:03:35 <Artea> OS uptime of my HomeServer
10:03:49 <Artea> my old laptop which have f***ing fan all broken
10:04:05 <Artea> and makes noise 24/7 as is a pool machine room
10:05:24 <Artea> left laptop on my right side is 6 on and right laptop have 4
10:09:22 <Artea> There is no bans on #artea
10:09:25 <Artea> Ban #1: *!*@artea.com.pt set by charon.oftc.net at Aug 8th 10:10pm [1659993016]
10:09:54 <Artea> [cpopup] on popups.ini done
10:10:18 <Artea> and seems I'm very behind on OpenTTD updates
10:12:03 <JustANortherner> EmperorJake: Only super narrow planes allowed here
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11:14:31 <peter1138> Hmm, I'd forgotten RT Doom exists.
11:30:37 <Wolf01> I just completed my doom collection, I think I'll play them in the steam deck... when it gets unstuck from the Netherlands
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14:58:45 <Artea> how about Brutal DooM, peter ?
15:03:54 <Artea> send a grenade to nuclear waste and kill an imp
15:04:12 <Artea> this mod is brutally good
15:04:27 <Artea> I guess I eventually have to make server hahahaha
15:04:48 <Artea> and there is a version that uses re-tracking
15:05:05 <Artea> I don't know much, just saw Mutahar (SomeOrdinaryGamers) play a little
15:05:55 <Artea> I have OpenTTD on there hahahaha
15:06:52 <Artea> and lately, because I found a funny game called Bitburner which is to make python scripts and earn money
15:07:17 <Artea> and how I wanted to turn into a Multiplayer game
15:07:59 <Artea> perhaps now is good chance to bring back that project if I get the Source Code
15:08:40 <Artea> time to reconfig IRCds with MySQL DB =P
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15:58:19 <peter1138> Raa, brakes bled, hopefully it'll work a bit better now. Need to get new pads really but don't have them right now.
15:58:34 <peter1138> I've played Brutal Doom, it's quite funny but it's NOT DOOM!
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18:15:02 <andythenorth> `wire_and_section_mill_industry_layout_2_wire_and_section_mill_industry_outpost_layout_1_7_composite_layout_num_16_graphics_switch`
18:15:26 <andythenorth> why is FIRS.nml filesize so big again?
18:17:24 <frosch> what was the character limit for identifiers in c89 again?
18:18:05 <andythenorth> 'have code generator, not afraid to use it'
18:18:27 <andythenorth> oh FIRS is only 8.7MB
18:18:31 <andythenorth> it's Horse that's silly
18:20:01 <frosch> did you try running a js minifier on it? replacing all those vars with short hashes?
18:20:06 <frosch> maybe nml parses faster then :p
18:21:26 <andythenorth> think it might hate me
18:21:48 <andythenorth> it's designed for default size of 5KB
18:23:19 <LordAro> ...is it still valid nml?
18:24:13 <frosch> what is the size before/after? 🙂
18:27:12 <andythenorth> hmm think I crashed the minifier
18:29:04 <andythenorth> I was using an older FIRS initially by mistake 😛
18:29:06 <andythenorth> too many open windows
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18:57:35 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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20:11:23 <andythenorth> shall we write an nml minifier?
20:12:36 <andythenorth> oof removing linebreaks cuts 3.3 MB from an 8.8 MB file
20:13:29 <andythenorth> nml does not like it 😛
20:13:29 <JGR> It wouldn't make the GRF any smaller
20:15:42 <andythenorth> just trying to speed up nmlc's glacially slow parsing step
20:18:16 <andythenorth> I could use slow python to strip whitespace from firs.nml
20:18:26 <andythenorth> instead of using slow python to parse it 😛
20:19:46 <andythenorth> ok whitespace makes zero meaningful difference to nmlc times
20:21:11 <andythenorth> I suspect this is not a profitable optimisation strategy 😄
20:21:43 <JGR> Might make more sense to try to de-duplicate stuff at code generation time instead?
20:22:29 <andythenorth> I wonder what the FIRS duplicate count is
20:24:09 <andythenorth> hmm the sed script frosch gave me to find duplicate realsprites
20:24:18 <andythenorth> finds no duplicates for FIRS
20:24:25 <andythenorth> industries don't have train problems
20:25:33 <JGR> Switch blocks seems to be duplicated a lot though
20:25:52 <andythenorth> I have gone hunting for redundant switches before and had a good yield
20:25:53 <JGR> Though I suppose you're limited on the number of groups you can have active at once
20:26:09 <andythenorth> previously I found many could be converted to procedures
20:26:28 <andythenorth> or just dropped because some code paths were never followed
20:27:00 <JGR> The procedure themselves seem often duplicated
20:27:11 <andythenorth> that's interesting
20:27:19 <andythenorth> they shouldn't be
20:27:36 <andythenorth> there's only one template for them usually, and only rendered once
20:28:09 <andythenorth> hmm FIRS is hard to get excited about optimising further
20:28:14 <andythenorth> compile time is 10 seconds
20:28:20 <andythenorth> ideally it would be 2 seconds, but eh
20:28:25 <andythenorth> it used to be > 1 min
21:09:16 <andythenorth> hmm ports really need outpost layouts of some kind
21:09:32 <andythenorth> they have lots of output cargos
21:09:51 <andythenorth> but currently the outpost generator just places them at N / E / S / W
21:09:58 <andythenorth> that doesn't make sense for ports 😛
21:10:21 <frosch> did i miss the newsletter on the relation between output cargos and outpost layouts?
21:10:35 <andythenorth> I'll do a blog post
21:10:48 <andythenorth> (1) we increased cargo limit (yay)
21:11:13 <andythenorth> (2) for output cargos, each cargo needs a dedicated pickup station
21:11:23 <andythenorth> to prevent blocking
21:11:34 <andythenorth> and also because newgrf station cargo sprites only show one type
21:11:58 <andythenorth> if trains are long, it can be hard to get coverage
21:12:11 <andythenorth> large industry layouts don't work in OpenTTD
21:12:14 <andythenorth> and gaps look silly
21:12:34 <frosch> ok, (2) is weird, but i don't think i played a steeltown game yet
21:12:55 <andythenorth> isn't (2) just standard gameplay? 🙂
21:13:02 <andythenorth> lol the idea of 'standard' in OpenTTD gameplay
21:13:12 <andythenorth> everyone has their own weird way
21:13:40 <frosch> it sounds a bit like: people wanted a more complicated gameplay by using more cargos, but then it turned out too hard, so we need to make it easier again
21:13:49 <JGR> For (2) you can use dedicated platforms, you don't have to have physically separate stations
21:13:50 <andythenorth> yes I think that's the TL;DR
21:14:08 <andythenorth> dedicated platforms?
21:14:12 * andythenorth might learn a thing
21:14:24 <andythenorth> is this going to be a revelation on the scale of auto-signal-drag?
21:14:30 <JGR> With waypoints, or just different one platform stations next to each other...
21:14:49 <frosch> for stations showing different cargos, you do not need actual different stations, just different station parts combined to a single station
21:14:54 <andythenorth> does that require faffing about with escape depots also JGR?
21:15:08 <JGR> I never use escape depots in my games
21:15:30 <andythenorth> how do you handle situation where num trains > num platforms?
21:15:38 <andythenorth> don't they just queue and block trains for the other cargo?
21:15:49 <TallTyler> Escape depots or huge yards
21:15:56 <JGR> In those cases I'll have some sidings for waiting trains
21:16:03 <andythenorth> oh I used to build yards about 10 years ago I think
21:16:09 <TallTyler> I usually use escape depots because I’m lazy even though yards look better
21:16:11 <frosch> i guess 2 platforms per cargo are fine
21:16:12 <JGR> Though that is getting into non-trivial gameplay
21:16:23 <frosch> so with 4 input and 4 output, 16 platforms is reasonable
21:16:36 <andythenorth> the grf station cargo display remains a problem with CHIPS
21:16:39 <frosch> actually, for input you may get away with 1 platform per cargo type
21:16:42 <andythenorth> ISR solved it with tiles per cargo
21:16:44 <JGR> I personally don't like abusing the depot TARDIS behaviour
21:16:54 <andythenorth> input is fine at 1 platform per cargo yes
21:17:03 <andythenorth> input is fine at 1 platform 😛
21:17:13 <andythenorth> depending what throughput you want 😛
21:17:28 * andythenorth wonders how this would work with the JGRPP through-loading thing
21:17:49 <andythenorth> did we port that yet?
21:18:22 <frosch> does the train need to stop for loading, or can it drive at 5 km/h through the station while being loaded?
21:18:24 <TallTyler> Yards for a big Steeltown port
21:18:50 <TallTyler> Four queue slots per cargo
21:19:21 <andythenorth> I think it drives?
21:19:32 <andythenorth> every so often I compile JGRPP and try out stuff
21:19:50 <andythenorth> I've never played a game long enough to remember how things work though
21:20:04 <andythenorth> the new signals are quite convincing though 😛
21:20:32 <JGR> This is a (slightly silly) one I've got in my game
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21:21:00 <JGR> 4 cargoes overall, mostly served out of 3 platforms
21:21:33 <TallTyler> Routing restrictions would be nice to put the yards further away from the platforms
21:22:18 <andythenorth> don't think I've built a yard since using PBI
21:22:28 <andythenorth> it was one option to prevent overflowing stockpiles
21:22:32 <andythenorth> by rate limiting deliveries
21:26:03 <andythenorth> should these outpost layouts be a parameter option?
21:26:03 <JGR> I've taken to using them a lot recently
21:26:30 * andythenorth wondering about small maps and placement
21:26:37 <andythenorth> also players might just not like them 😛
21:27:10 <JGR> I suppose it depends how frequent they are
21:27:23 <JGR> If every industry has one it might seem a bit silly
21:27:25 <andythenorth> they're used for specific industries
21:27:33 <andythenorth> they're mostly not required
21:28:33 <andythenorth> indepedently of this, I did consider measuring the map and changing industry layout availability to favour small or large layouts
21:28:47 <andythenorth> but testing things like that is so boring 😛
21:29:16 <andythenorth> I feel like the game automatically does that by trying to place the industry a lot
21:29:26 <andythenorth> so the small layout will be included in the dice roll
21:29:59 <JGR> Is there even a variable for map size?
21:30:20 <andythenorth> it's used to tune industry clusters
21:30:38 <andythenorth> wonder if there are vars for TGP settings (mountainous etc) 😛
21:31:18 <andythenorth> patch var 13 is map size
21:32:25 <JGR> Ah, I always forget about action D
21:33:52 <frosch> actionD has plenty of room for in-game-immutable values
21:34:08 <frosch> va2 is almost full in comparision
21:34:16 <TallTyler> What about splitting the industry into two equal-ish size parts instead of main and outpost?
21:34:42 <andythenorth> for ports, or generally?
21:35:04 <andythenorth> that is my consideration for ports
21:36:42 <andythenorth> gives me an idea
21:43:21 <andythenorth> 1) outpost layout
21:43:47 <andythenorth> 2) more equally sized layouts
21:44:19 <TallTyler> Does the separated size make generation on hilly maps easier since they don’t have to have the same elevation?
21:44:40 <andythenorth> currently they generally require flat
21:44:49 <TallTyler> The outpost looks too small, I like the larger size
21:44:57 <andythenorth> it has some problems
21:45:02 <andythenorth> but it's worth exploring
21:45:10 <andythenorth> map gen just failed with it
21:45:39 <andythenorth> might be a one off
21:45:51 <andythenorth> it will be harder to make work visually
21:45:57 <andythenorth> there's nothing tying the two parts together
21:48:00 <TallTyler> Where does the industry sign go?
21:48:14 <nielsm> industries don't have signs
21:48:31 <andythenorth> I was trying to turn it on 🙂
21:48:36 <andythenorth> couldn't find it
21:48:58 <andythenorth> trying to work out if this solves the station problem
21:49:09 <andythenorth> or if it's just '2 tile gap with annoying offset'
21:49:44 <nielsm> can the outposts be built on a different height level than the main building?
21:50:15 <andythenorth> implementation detail though
21:50:36 <andythenorth> would be possible to do, just considerable glue needed to pass the sub-layout to the location checks
21:51:00 <andythenorth> FIRS already does...things....with heights to try and maximise buildability
21:54:36 <andythenorth> so this 2 part layout gives an area 15x20 to build stations in
21:55:06 <TallTyler> How long before you ship CHIPS with FIRS?
21:56:02 <andythenorth> previously this industry had a 13x13 area for stations
21:56:22 <andythenorth> so 101 more tiles 😛
21:56:29 <andythenorth> for placing different railtypes
21:57:25 <nielsm> but how many of those tiles are going to be blocked anyway because the station is roro and has a huge switching area both before and after?
21:59:48 <andythenorth> jfs-: sounds like you campaign for increasing station catchment by 1 tile 😛
22:00:02 <andythenorth> send me your newsletter pls
22:01:08 <JGR> You don't need the whole station to be in the catchment area, just at least one tile of it
22:01:21 <nielsm> that screenshot seems like it would be no different without the outpost, and the tight space is caused more by the vincinity of water more than anything else?
22:02:10 <andythenorth> that screenshot is from the test game I've just injected outpost layouts to
22:02:26 <andythenorth> the stations were built with the previous non-outpost 🙂
22:02:40 <andythenorth> but it seemed to support your claim about filling space with track
22:03:03 <nielsm> and in competitive multiplayer, players have no incentive to make their stations and surrounding track compact, unless space is already tight, so player constructions would likely still take up a similar proportion of the tiles within catchment
22:04:23 <andythenorth> industries which define certain tiles that the player can overbuild? 😛
22:04:42 <andythenorth> (without the silly over-sized sprite hacks that probably glitch)
22:05:04 <andythenorth> nah that won't work...giant layouts can't be placed
22:06:27 <andythenorth> I did try this in 2019 😛
22:07:55 <andythenorth> but it tended to produce congested junctions to get into those stations
22:08:26 <andythenorth> should probably have ro-ro-ed the platforms
22:10:03 <JGR> Not sure how a ro-ro would work in a port like this
22:10:13 <JGR> Constraints are not necessarily a bad thing
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22:14:39 <andythenorth> fortunately we have ships 😛
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22:21:24 <TallTyler> Ro-ro is good for unloading platforms, not sure it's really needed for loading platforms unless you have a lot of industry production
22:28:56 * andythenorth will probably dream about industry layouts :P
22:29:17 <TallTyler> Count the tiles until you fall asleep
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