IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-06-17
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07:52:54 <peter1138> "Your parcel has, unfortunately, been sorted to the wrong delivery depot." Thanks parcelforce :/
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09:52:53 <andythenorth> lol how to do shell comments in a makefile?
09:53:21 <andythenorth> I can't figure out how to give it the ; \ line ending
09:53:25 <andythenorth> so I get `/bin/sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file`
10:07:15 <LordAro> andythenorth: context?
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10:09:16 <andythenorth> some of the comments would be better inline with the relevant code
10:10:02 <LordAro> hmm, can't see anything obviously wrong there
10:11:16 <andythenorth> that version works, as I moved the comments up
10:11:50 <LordAro> yes, can't put inline comments in a multiline shell command
10:11:55 <LordAro> can't do that in normal shell either
10:11:59 <andythenorth> I wondered if there was some magic escape
10:12:15 <andythenorth> it's fairly self explanatory anyway
10:12:40 <LordAro> comments within make rules in general are a bad idea, as they get executed as if they're a command
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10:20:40 <andythenorth> all mine are moved above the rule, or tabbed left
10:58:21 <Eddi|zuHause> just use a command that doesn't actually do anything
10:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and make the comment a parameter to that command that gets ignored
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13:05:09 <andythenorth> how about colon? :P
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13:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's about what i thought...
13:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> in dos : was used as the jump marker and a cheap replacement of the "rem" command
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14:26:21 <andythenorth> still surprised that a full compile of 2 grfs completes in the same time as 1 grf, using -j 4
14:26:43 <andythenorth> multiple-grf-container format for bananas and in-game when?
14:39:41 <peter1138> Surprised that parallel compilation is parallel?
14:43:01 <andythenorth> surprised there isn't more overhead :P
14:44:04 <peter1138> andythenorth, it's literall separate processes, so... what overhead are you expecting?
14:44:46 <andythenorth> there are python scripts
14:44:54 <glx> unless Makefile is poorly written (regarding deps), it can fire multiple processes
14:45:00 <andythenorth> starting python can be quite expensive
14:45:53 <andythenorth> I've tried parallelising with python multiprocessing, and sometimes it's great, and sometimes overhead negates any time saved
14:45:57 <andythenorth> but then again...pickle is slow
14:46:19 <andythenorth> maybe that's the overhead :P
14:46:36 <glx> first start of python may be expensive, but system usually cache stuff so next starts are faster
14:57:49 <glx> <andythenorth> but then again...pickle is slow <-- the article just says it's wrong :)
14:58:25 <andythenorth> pickle is slow in timing tests compared to some other serialisation formats
14:58:34 <andythenorth> but that's probably not inherent to the format
14:58:45 <glx> it depends on the implementation
15:17:50 <peter1138> andythenorth, regardless of the -j setting, you'll be starting python the same number of times.
15:18:20 <peter1138> So with -j 4, instead of starting it serially you'll be starting it concurrently.
15:20:19 <peter1138> Of course if python itself decided to use multiple threads during startup then it would be different, I suppose.
15:23:06 <andythenorth> it was lunch already
15:25:12 <andythenorth> let's have oranges
15:25:47 <supermop_work> i had a bag of chips
15:25:52 <peter1138> I ate all the things :(
15:25:56 <andythenorth> you mean crisps supermop_work
15:26:32 <supermop_work> these were purchased in en_US
15:26:46 <andythenorth> it's one of the only 'other languages are stupid things' I bother with
15:26:52 <andythenorth> crisps are crisps
15:27:02 <andythenorth> everything else I'm prepared to be flexible
15:27:03 <supermop_work> in aus both chips and chips are chips
15:27:16 <andythenorth> or in other news, wrong
15:27:21 <supermop_work> and a chippy is a carpenter
15:27:53 <andythenorth> it's an area the British have correct, and should export
15:27:59 <supermop_work> never figured out plumber... pipey?
15:28:44 <supermop_work> landlord sent over sparkies to our house, and i did the work of a chippie
15:28:51 <andythenorth> 'crisps' is both more accurate, and more appealing
15:28:57 <supermop_work> but when the plumber came, it was just a plumber
15:29:29 <supermop_work> can't recal if brickie was a real term or one i made up
15:29:51 <LordAro> definitely a real term over here
15:30:20 <andythenorth> meh multiple grfs in one repo means nested dirs all over the shop
15:30:23 <andythenorth> 'flat is better'
15:30:37 <supermop_work> also not sure how different melb is from sydney in these respects
15:30:54 <supermop_work> as the tradies drive different shaped trucks
15:31:06 <andythenorth> don't they all drive a ute?
15:31:59 <supermop_work> a toyota hilux seems to be sometimes called a ute. a ford falcon or holden is certainly a ute
15:32:11 <supermop_work> but sometimes the toyota is a truck?
15:36:58 <andythenorth> hmm oranges were good
15:39:04 <supermop_work> we don't have hilucies here
15:39:16 <supermop_work> it's called a 'Tacoma'
15:39:53 <supermop_work> because nothing denotes rugged off roading like a suburb of a wealthy tech focused city
15:40:52 <supermop_work> i should draw more sprites
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17:00:43 <FLHerne> yay, first sunburn of the year
17:26:33 <andythenorth> meh nml lang files :P
17:27:31 <andythenorth> do they have a fixed name format?
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18:39:34 <Samu> why doesn't SuperSimpleAI guy uploads his newer versions to bananas?
18:41:38 <rightnut> someone in my neighborhood has a truck horn that sounds exactly like some of the horns in this game and it has been driving me nuts
18:41:47 <rightnut> i keep thinking i left the game minimized
18:54:13 <supermop_work> i guess i could draw a sprite of a chippy
18:54:25 <supermop_work> would be a bit out of place in a hawaii base set
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19:22:29 <TrueBrain> Sweet Transit, some new OpenTTD-like game has a nice UI for building routes, trains, etc
19:25:14 <TrueBrain> also their (PBS) reservation looks nice
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19:28:01 <frosch123> it's mentioned everywhere
19:28:17 <TrueBrain> it has some nice UI ideas
19:28:24 <TrueBrain> also some I really dislike, looking at that movie
19:29:04 <frosch123> rude... they credit factorio for the trains
19:29:15 <TrueBrain> yeah, that made me laugh
19:29:56 <TrueBrain> in many ways, it is very OpenTTD-like :) But that is not a bad thing
19:30:00 <frosch123> why do they have 6 digit bug numbers?
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19:30:42 <TrueBrain> btw, the youtuber I linked, he is mostly a factorio player ;) Might explain a thing or two :)
19:30:57 <frosch123> oh, i assumed its the developer
19:31:48 <TrueBrain> the graphics are nice too
19:32:00 <TrueBrain> I like 8bpp more, but it is not a bad way to do graphics for such games :)
19:32:29 <frosch123> it's not a mobile game, so it's already on the good side .p
19:32:40 <TrueBrain> not made by Blizzard, can't be bad :P
19:34:16 <frosch123> also, the commit log reads like andy chat
19:34:22 <frosch123> must be a newgrf author thing
19:34:25 <TrueBrain> he did that manually yes, no clue why
19:34:42 <TrueBrain> he did find some nice bugs I need to fix :)
19:35:31 <TrueBrain> and clearly I need to spend a few words in Project, when a commit is worth doing :D
19:35:39 <frosch123> it's funny how starting a townname set and uploading it to bananas can now be a one-evening thing :p
19:35:53 <TrueBrain> and with 0 NewGRF knowledge :D
19:36:45 <TrueBrain> guess I could rename "version" to "storage-version" or something
19:37:27 <TrueBrain> was thinking of adding it to each file, instead of one
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19:37:37 <TrueBrain> so when people copy files from other repositories, it doesn't break
19:37:54 <frosch123> are you sure you would be able to upgrade mixed versions?
19:38:21 <TrueBrain> the abstraction I picked is that each file describes a single object in full
19:38:28 <TrueBrain> so I -think- that should always be possible
19:38:42 <TrueBrain> but yeah, can't be 100% sure there
19:39:03 <frosch123> well, would it have been possible in the past 6 cases?
19:39:56 <TrueBrain> they were all really dull :P
19:40:04 <TrueBrain> (all in truegrf.yaml :P)
19:41:08 <frosch123> haha, so version 7 "rename 'version' to 'foobar'" would be truegrf.yaml again
19:41:16 <frosch123> clearly something wrong with that file
19:42:04 <TrueBrain> still no clue how to do the UI for stations ... it is tricky :)
19:42:13 <TrueBrain> how do you let someone define all the different layout dimensions ..
19:42:39 <TrueBrain> maybe a rule-set editor is all you need .. one that says: use this sprite if the sprite left/right/top/bottom is like this
19:42:47 <TrueBrain> so it auto-connects everything automagically
19:43:08 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is what gave your alt account away
19:43:16 <frosch123> TrueBrain: do it like bridges
19:43:43 <frosch123> fixed patterns for station sizes NxM which repeat
19:44:16 <TrueBrain> not sure what you mean .. how do bridges work? :P
19:45:07 <frosch123> so for platform length N you have (tile0 - Ax(tile1-tile2-tile3) - tile4 - Ax(tile5-tile6-tile7) - tile8)
19:45:34 <frosch123> i.e. you can selecte predfined layouts which start and end with a specifc tile, have some fixed-length part in the middle
19:45:45 <frosch123> and repeating N-length parts left and right of the middle
19:46:05 <TrueBrain> yeah, so we say the same; I am just suggesting it in 2D :)
19:46:56 <TrueBrain> that is how Unity does that
19:47:38 <TrueBrain> and I am still looking for station sprites to experiment with .. whos to steal .... euh, borrow :P
19:48:37 <frosch123> i vote for industrial stations renewal
19:48:57 <frosch123> it has the type of figure-out-nice-pattern-depending-on-length
19:49:13 <TrueBrain> CHIPS didn't help me at all, sorry :P
19:49:15 <frosch123> TrueBrain: devzone :p
19:49:22 <andythenorth> I don't understand CHIPS
19:49:22 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah .. rest in peace :)
19:49:29 <frosch123> i guess i should migrate the ogfx+ sets and those i like
19:49:46 <TrueBrain> at least something to work from :P
19:54:32 <TrueBrain> owh, lol, ISR makes fun use of "not a 1x1"
19:54:36 <TrueBrain> so there is always a special building
19:54:58 <TrueBrain> drag&drop is terrible, in allowing things that aren't allowed
19:55:13 <TrueBrain> took me a bit to figure that one out
19:55:44 <TrueBrain> I get why you suggest the same way as bridges frosch123
19:55:46 <frosch123> length 1 was a special case in ttdp for waypoints
19:56:06 <TrueBrain> you mostly build stations in the direction of the rail
19:56:07 <frosch123> though i do not remember ttdp behavior that well
19:56:09 <TrueBrain> so that kinda makes sense
19:56:35 <andythenorth> does nml require english.lng to be named english.lng?
19:56:36 <TrueBrain> ISR also does random sprites; I do not like that at all :P
19:56:42 * andythenorth should read nml source
19:56:43 <TrueBrain> means I need to rebuild often to get the right building
19:56:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think it cares about ##grflangid
19:57:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: haha, i love randomness. add variety to stations without having to click much
19:57:49 <TrueBrain> depends if you are doing a 1x1 or a nxm :P
19:58:20 <frosch123> oh, fun fact: openttd actually implements the station-ai callback to let noais pick the right station looks
19:58:54 <TrueBrain> okay, ISR in contrast to OpenGFX+ is a big difference
19:59:00 <TrueBrain> OpenGFX+ is a lot simpler :D
19:59:37 <TrueBrain> manual labor intensive shit is OpenGFX+ ;)
19:59:59 <TrueBrain> yeah, okay, I like the bridge-approach frosch123 .. that is also a lot better for the player
20:02:03 <frosch123> okay, i get why they compare it to factorio
20:02:05 <TrueBrain> and with randomness like ISR does, that looks pretty sweet
20:02:14 <frosch123> it shares a lot with it
20:03:23 <frosch123> including the boring maps
20:04:54 <TrueBrain> guess we are back on the topic of Sweet Transit? :P
20:05:56 <andythenorth> seems nml wants english.lng
20:06:05 <andythenorth> I thought it scanned for files by langid but eh
20:06:47 <andythenorth> I guess --default-lang=
20:07:02 <TrueBrain> AuzStations kinda have the same issue, that you really have to build up your station manually
20:07:21 <frosch123> probably two types of players :)
20:07:22 <TrueBrain> I guess that is a bit of the split .. either make it pretty easily, or give the player full control
20:08:02 <TrueBrain> guess in TrueGRF it could also make two sets of each .. one with auto-pretty, one with manually doing stuff
20:08:23 <frosch123> it's manual stuff a subset of auto-pretty?
20:08:33 <frosch123> just without randomisation, and with trivial pattern
20:08:37 <TrueBrain> yeah, so the latter has all the sprites
20:08:45 <TrueBrain> the first does auto-layout for you based on those
20:08:59 <TrueBrain> so OpenTTD station is the first, OpenGFX+ is the second
20:09:51 <TrueBrain> an OpenTTD station does the tiling for you
20:09:55 <TrueBrain> you get a single house in the center
20:09:58 <TrueBrain> benches on the rest
20:10:04 <TrueBrain> in OpenGFX+ you can select each station tile yourself
20:10:08 <TrueBrain> and place them exactly how you want
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20:10:39 <frosch123> also, the most weird part about sweettrains is that building trains takes time
20:10:52 <TrueBrain> I am guessing that are two different type of players .. those that just want pretty stations, and those that want to have it exactly how they tell it
20:11:21 <frosch123> the latter type are those which would use custom foundations :p
20:12:00 <TrueBrain> why are sometimes stations greyed out .. hmm
20:12:33 <TrueBrain> the game aint telling me
20:12:56 <TrueBrain> okay, and next to the above two methods, you also have "decorations", I guess
20:13:18 <TrueBrain> things that are only in the second category, never in the first, basically :P
20:13:57 <frosch123> not sure about that :) mineral piles could still have random patterns
20:14:25 <TrueBrain> guess I can start with the second only for now
20:14:31 <TrueBrain> which basically is how most sets currently work
20:14:41 <TrueBrain> and work on the first after that
20:15:29 <TrueBrain> I am guessing that most sets just don't know how to do the first category, and just leave it as it is
20:15:36 <TrueBrain> similar for limiting dimensions
20:15:43 <TrueBrain> as for some tiles, NxM really makes NO sense :P
20:16:28 <TrueBrain> funny, Rural Stations limit some stations to 1x1-4
20:16:34 <TrueBrain> but I can just make it 1xM
20:16:36 <TrueBrain> by building it twice
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20:16:40 <TrueBrain> no graphical difference
20:17:16 <frosch123> probably "rural" implies the opinion that you should not build large stations with them :)
20:17:38 <TrueBrain> except I can build NxM for others :P
20:18:00 <frosch123> the grf should check for that, and display a "you are doing it wrong" sign
20:18:42 <TrueBrain> okay .. I have some ideas .... now to find a UI way of testing those out :P
20:19:11 <TrueBrain> honestly, the second category should be rather easy to implement ..
20:21:37 <TrueBrain> right, something for tomorrow .. :D
20:27:08 <frosch123> btw. in case you are wondering how to show/store the two orientations. maybe also think of objects, which can have 1, 2 or 4 orientations for the player to pick
20:27:29 <frosch123> not sure whether 3 is valid...
20:28:09 <TrueBrain> But yeah, good point :)
20:28:44 <frosch123> difference is though: NxM objects are bulldozed as-a-whole, while stations can be removed per tile
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21:19:10 <glx> there's a demo for sweet transit, and my PC is over the minimal specs, I may try it
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