IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-06-12
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00:28:32 <wallabra> are diagonal rails bad?
00:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> sure. care to elaborate?
01:20:17 <wallabra> is it true that a train is slower on a diagonal rail than orthogonal?
01:20:49 <wallabra> like, slower than necessary to maintain Euclidean equivalence between diagonal and orthogonal rails (i.e. sqrt(2)/2)
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01:48:44 <wallabra> Also, how do station ratings affect transfers?
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09:16:57 <FLHerne> wallabra: I thought it was the opposite
09:17:49 <FLHerne> well, depends what your reference point is :p
09:18:12 <FLHerne> travel diagonally across tile corners is faster than along the middle of tiles
09:18:50 <FLHerne> station ratings don't affect transfers, but the waiting passengers can affect rating
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11:12:20 <Samu> well, I guess 8398 won't go anywhere
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11:19:12 <peter1138> I don't think you explained what problem you're solving -- just detail about your algorithm.
11:26:30 <Samu> the video explains something about alabama's paradox, i guess that's what I was trying to solve
11:26:51 <Samu> but there's no fair solution, so i suppose the pr won't go anywhere
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12:52:30 <glx> yeah I reran the job, seems fine now
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13:18:06 <Samu> testing 8492 is really... really difficult
13:19:08 <Samu> i feel it needs a test case
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13:33:04 <andythenorth_> Steel Steinbok?
13:33:34 <andythenorth_> what if they’re all “Iron xyz”?
13:35:54 <frosch123> that would make too much sense
13:35:59 <frosch123> people could recognise a meaning
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13:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something feels wrong making a bock both "steel" and "stone"
13:57:06 <andythenorth> rock paper scissors
13:58:06 * andythenorth still exploring alpine animals
13:58:15 <andythenorth> not that 'Horse' is uniquely British, TBH
13:58:44 <andythenorth> I'd do Chaomis, but I can neither (a) pronounce it, (b) spell it reliably
13:58:53 <andythenorth> "Hannibal's Elephant"
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14:02:41 <frosch123> some sets put steam/diesel/electric icons in the purchase list to tag engines
14:02:54 <frosch123> will you add animal icons to distinguish rosters?
14:03:35 <andythenorth> frosch123 'maybe icons'
14:04:27 <frosch123> make them all alliterations?
14:05:08 <andythenorth> Magnesium Mustang
14:05:40 <andythenorth> this is a very serious issue, and I am glad we are taking it seriously :P
14:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Mustang is very north american
14:06:16 <frosch123> maybe never release an official set, instead add all engines to truegrf and let people compose their own set :p
14:06:16 <andythenorth> I have no idea why UK Horse is 'pony'
14:06:32 <frosch123> UK is known for foxes
14:06:37 <andythenorth> random animal name generator included
14:06:41 <andythenorth> UK should be Badger
14:06:50 <andythenorth> or just Badger Badger
14:07:03 <andythenorth> allegedly scandinavians are scared of Badgers
14:07:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Badger Badger Badger Badger Mushroom Mushroom
14:07:31 <frosch123> are they? i only heard stories about trolls in norway
14:08:33 <frosch123> nah, bird names are reserved for aircraft sets
14:08:55 <frosch123> no birds or fish or whales for horse :)
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14:09:39 <andythenorth_> hotel wifi kicked me :P
14:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i think you should keep "iron" for all variations, for branding
14:10:57 <Eddi|zuHause> one part should stay the same, the other varying.
14:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Iron Mammoth for transsiberia
14:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Iron Camel for north africa
14:13:04 <andythenorth_> I quite like the alliteration of Iron Ibex
14:13:25 <andythenorth_> dunno if I prefer Iron Moose or Iron Mustang for North America
14:13:36 <andythenorth_> or Iron Buffalo
14:14:01 <andythenorth_> do I rename the current Iron Horse grf to Iron Pony?
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14:16:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i would focus on domesticated animals that are typically associated with transport
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14:18:36 <andythenorth_> such an ugly locomotive
14:18:57 <andythenorth_> a lot of Horse train names are mythical creatures
14:26:19 <andythenorth_> nickel nyan cat
14:34:57 <andythenorth_> totally unrelated
14:35:26 <andythenorth_> but vehicles seem to be able to travel on incompatible railtypes, as long as the lead vehicle can travel on them
14:35:42 <andythenorth_> not sure if that's just a badly implemented 'mixed gauge' railtype grf or not
14:35:58 <glx> lead or any powered vehicle in the consist I think
14:37:23 <andythenorth_> yeah I've reproed it with Horse railtypes
14:37:46 <andythenorth_> it's as glx said
14:38:18 <frosch123> the term "compatible" should be banned
14:38:27 <frosch123> use "powered" and "tolerated" instead
14:38:41 <andythenorth_> I think you wrote something like that in the wiki also
14:39:00 <andythenorth_> so if e.g. I wanted to ban double stack container wagons on elrails
14:39:10 <andythenorth_> that's not currently possible
14:39:22 * andythenorth_ needs to have other better ideas then
14:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's technically possible, but the compatibility graph will look weird and cause confusing side effects
14:49:13 <andythenorth_> I suspect that it's best avoided
14:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, you need a separate railtype for double stack containers, which can go on regular rail but not elrail, but then you will get users that think you need to put down the double stack tracktype
14:49:53 <frosch123> if we had 64k railtypes, you could give each engine their own railtype, and define poweredness individually
14:49:59 <andythenorth_> railtypes can be hidden
14:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> which means it would be easier to just enforce that intuitive rule
14:50:26 <andythenorth_> but even with the different railtype, vehicles can traverse other nominally incompatible types
14:50:34 <andythenorth_> e.g. narrow gauge can travel on RAIL
14:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> if they do that you set them up wrong
14:51:08 <andythenorth_> yeah they can, it just needs one of the 'mixed' railtype grfs
14:51:21 <andythenorth_> usually it's not possible because you can't build ng and RAIL in the same depot
14:51:33 <andythenorth_> but with a 'mixed' depot you can build a mixed consist, then set it going
14:51:48 <andythenorth_> NG will traverse RAIL happily and vice versa, in a mixed consist
14:52:07 <andythenorth_> I was surprised to see it, but eh, grf things
14:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like the grf is doing more than it should do
14:53:06 <andythenorth_> I think it's an unintended consequence :)
14:53:28 <andythenorth_> but Iron Horse railtypes do it with high speed lines
14:53:42 <andythenorth_> a consist solely of RAIL vehicles cannot traverse high speed lines
14:54:08 <andythenorth_> but if the consist contains a single high speed vehicle anywhere, then it can
14:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> care to make a bug report?
14:54:40 <andythenorth_> has to be a powered high speed vehicle
14:54:54 <andythenorth_> this is intended no?
14:55:05 <andythenorth_> otherwise wouldn't the pathfinder have too much to do?
14:55:26 <glx> yeah if powered it can go
14:55:58 <andythenorth_> seems that preventing this would have other consequences
14:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well... that sounds like intended behaviour... if RAIL vehicles are "compatible" but not "powered" on high speed, then adding an engine with in-cab-signalling etc. it can go on highspeed rail
14:56:41 <glx> if you really want to prevent it you can use attach callback
14:56:50 <andythenorth_> that is a good point
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15:56:56 <Samu> there hasn't been a savegame conversion in 8 months
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18:59:23 <Samu> I don't know if what I'm fixing is a valid issue, I can see it depends on who you ask
19:11:24 <_dp_> I never learned design patterns so no idea what it's called
19:11:35 <_dp_> it's just a method of SpriteGenerator that grf-py calls to get actionss
19:11:42 <andythenorth> me neither but I picked up a couple of common python patterns over 20 years :P
19:12:01 <andythenorth> I had a design patterns book once, never really read it
19:12:15 <_dp_> hm, no actions I guess, more like sprites... GRF has terrible terminology :p
19:13:38 <_dp_> idk, I wouldn't call it adapter since it's not a dedicated class, just a regular inheritance
19:13:56 <_dp_> just implementing necessary interface
19:14:46 <_dp_> can always to that with adapter too ofc
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19:52:49 <Samu> well, I no longer have to wonder
20:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "design patterns" isn't really anything you should learn, it's more a collection of things people have done to get around previous design flaws
20:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> like "i've got this plug, and this socket, and they weren't designed for the same standard, how can i get them to fit?"
20:09:29 <frosch123> design patterns are vocabulary, one word instead of two long sentences
20:10:45 <_dp_> I kinda feel like in python most of those java-like patterns are either unnecessary or just bad
20:10:57 <_dp_> most of the useful stuff is already part of the language like decorators
20:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, most design patterns are "if you need this, you've already taken a wrong turn earlier"
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20:18:32 <frosch123> _dp_: yes, that is correct. there are lots of patterns for C, which are normal syntax in more modern languages
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20:20:55 <andythenorth> I found patterns convenient shorthand
20:21:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, just vocabulary to simplify talk between developers
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20:24:05 <andythenorth> hmm so remove nml from Horse? :P
20:24:12 <andythenorth> maybe not tonight :P
20:26:31 <frosch123> meh, i hate it when the same spam is received multiple times per day
20:26:42 <frosch123> can't they become more creative at least?
20:28:46 <andythenorth> what do we get offered this time?
20:32:48 <frosch123> no idea, cjk letters this time
20:33:32 <frosch123> though the other day some "security researcher" mailed us, that our mail server lacks some important dns entry
20:34:04 <frosch123> i have no idea, whether it was scam, or some samuesk nerd, reporting things noone cares about
20:35:04 <frosch123> no idea what DMARC records are, but i don't think ottd needs them
20:38:07 <andythenorth> think the relate to sender verification
20:39:01 * andythenorth procrastinates grf things some more
20:39:52 <andythenorth> did anyone have a patch for composing road vehicles like trains
20:39:59 <andythenorth> I think there was a spec for it somewhere
20:43:48 <andythenorth> is FIRS in simutrans yet? :P
20:47:41 <frosch123> no hit on the forum
20:47:46 <frosch123> maybe the scale does not fit
20:47:55 <andythenorth> that has stopped people before? :P
20:51:14 <_dp_> hm, grf spec say train power is in hp but somehow it shows a bit more in the game
20:51:28 <_dp_> 350 in 0B gets 355hp in game
20:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there's imperial HP and metric HP
20:52:43 <frosch123> metric is kW, not HP
20:53:05 <frosch123> it should show the newgrf value 1:1 in hp
20:53:18 <frosch123> maybe you have articulated parts that add power?
20:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: kW is another matter
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20:54:40 <frosch123> @calc 350*4153 >> 12
20:54:40 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: Invalid syntax: illegal operator RShift
20:54:46 <frosch123> @calc 350*4153 / 4096
20:54:46 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 354.87060546875
20:54:52 <frosch123> yeah, ok, metric hp
20:55:02 <_dp_> yeah, grf takes imperial but I have metric in game
20:57:59 <andythenorth> when is April 1?
20:58:10 * andythenorth considers releasing 2 new Horse rosters, just snowploughs
20:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> every day is april 1
20:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like eternal september
20:59:19 <andythenorth> does Ibex sound like it's a spanish roster?
20:59:30 * andythenorth has no idea why that might be, but my brain makes the connection
20:59:44 <andythenorth> at least Ibex is easy to spell
20:59:48 <_dp_> last april 1st was on october 17th
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